[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Meleagridis wrote:
Blackjack is a Deus we've chosen to forgive.

Not exactly, for two key reasons.

First, because Deus isn't doof. We can't forgive because of what he became, not because of his orignal crime. We could have forgiven him 200 years ago, before he turned into a monster who didn't care about anyone else - before he stopped trying to do better. He made mistakes, and his victim couldn't forgive - and that is normal. Boing can't forgive either. Or Daisy. P21 might, someday.

But that's what I'm saying. Doof we could forgive and wish well. Deus is a monster who must die. They aren't the same person. And maybe being Deus isn't Doof's fault. Sorry. He's still a monster.

And that leads into point 2: BJ particpated in a system that caused rape, but she was never herself violent. Those medtechs applying electrodes and medx would be just as unforgivable as Deus. Even in his "field tests" at the time, we see Deus is already a violent rapist. Not confused by bad advice and mixed signals. Not part of something he grew up with and didn't know better.

And that's why Doof we could forgive, BJ we could fogive, but not Deus...

ScytoHarmony wrote:Anyone have any suggestions of good pony-tumblrs to follow? Doesn't Wave have one?

Do you just want the smaller ones, or the big names too?
Here's a small Screwball blog.

FeatherDust wrote:
We can't forgive because of what he became, not because of his orignal crime.
Doof we could forgive and wish well. Deus is a monster who must die.

Deus is already a violent rapist. Not confused by bad advice and mixed signals.
And that's why Doof we could forgive, BJ we could fogive, but not Deus...

Well, yes. Perhaps I should have said Doof, rather. But by now Blackjack has at least one crime of rage under her belt. Sleepless or not, she is guilty of trying to murder Boing. She's where Doof was at the point of breaking. So she may not be Deus, but she isn't all that far from becoming him. Still, I probably should have said Doof rather than Deus.
(And thanks, swicked)

swicked wrote:

A Doof born to the wasteland might very well have become a hero like Blackjack.

Doof WAS a hero, remember when he raped Twist was right after the Shattered Hoof incident. Before then he was a loyal member of the Marauders, a fine upstanding citizen who had a bit of an intelligence issue. Until that night he thought he had a chance with Twist and being an idiot read the signs wrong and forced himself on her, yes he had to know he was raping her at some level but we got inside his head that night way back in... whatever chapter it was and he was rationalizing it at the time in his own head.

And after being arrested, tried and sent to Hightower what did he do? He stood up for the weak, despite his crimes he was trying to make amends, trying to apologize as he understood what he had done had hurt Twist terribly, he even knew he would not be forgiven but he wanted to say he was sorry to her face because to him until he did say it... well that's the same as not being sorry. When Vanity sat him down and told him it was not going to happen he turned back the other way, he broke and he put himself back together into the Deus that Blackjack met and then helped kill.

swicked wrote:

FeatherDust wrote:And that leads into point 2: BJ particpated in a system that caused rape, but she was never herself violent. Those medtechs applying electrodes and medx would be just as unforgivable as Deus. Even in his "field tests" at the time, we see Deus is already a violent rapist. Not confused by bad advice and mixed signals. Not part of something he grew up with and didn't know better.

And that's why Doof we could forgive, BJ we could fogive, but not Deus...

Urge to invoke Godwin's law rising...

In any case, what should really be called normal, here?
In the time prior to and during the war, there was still a fair amount of harmony. Rape immediately made a monster out of deus... while "now", in the wasteland, monsters are commonplace. I have to wonder if the act would still be treated with the same amount of scorn. If Boing is any indication, a fair amount of the wasteland might find it commonplace.
I'm reminded of the security mare at the meatlocker bemoaning how death is forgotten within days. People don't hold as many grudges and just try to carry on.
A Doof born to the wasteland might very well have become a hero like Blackjack.

The end justifies the means.
What the Nazi's did was indeed wrong, and there was much better, less violent solutions they could've used (like simply expelling all Jews, gays, gypsies and so on away from Germany/Austria) but without their research and their developments... without the necessity of war, technology and culture would be a far ways behind where it is currently.

How much longer do you think it would've taken to develop practical use jet engines, rockets, medicines and so on without the necessity of war pushing it along?
What about the scientific breakthroughs in medical / physiological science that the Nazi's brought us through extensive testing on both "true Aryan" and "non Aryan" peoples, on twins, on the mentally deficient...

How much longer (if at all) would it have taken for nuclear science to become a reality without the pressure of war encouraging its research and development... the dangers of radiation and the uses of it, too. X ray machines, chemotherapy, you name it.



The Nazi's did a lot of bad things, but they also did a lot of wonderful things by making the necessity for it.

Meleagridis wrote:

ScytoHarmony wrote:Anyone have any suggestions of good pony-tumblrs to follow? Doesn't Wave have one?

Do you just want the smaller ones, or the big names too?
Here's a small Screwball blog.

Oh, I'm looking for everything. So far the only one I'm following is Little-Miss-Rarity and Little-Miss-JAY.

Woonastuck. That is all.

Meleagridis wrote:Steam name Parvum.

Blackjack is a Deus we've chosen to forgive.

Ramble ramble ramble:

Perhaps at a 30,000 foot level I could sort of agree with you, but details do matter. First off, I can't help but feel that you are overselling the point by leading with "Deus" and then focusing almost solely on the rape of Twist; his actions in the Wasteland matter, too, and (to me, at least) are of a character fundamentally different from Blackjack's.

Okay, so suppose--for the moment--we scale back to Doof, pre-Deus. I had always had a great deal of sympathy for him. Obviously he should have known better, but I always felt there was blame to spread around because of Brass' incitement to rape, and the others' failure to object. Granted, that's partially because on my first reading of that memory orb, Doof came across, to me, as (much) dumber than he actually was (to the extent I wondered why he was on a special-ops team). But I've never been able to muster much beyond "he should have known better", as in context there just was no malice there. And that's largely how I feel about Blackjack's actions prior to Deus' arrival; the major difference is that I need to question how appropriate it is for me to believe she should have known better, given the toxic context of her upbringing. So on this point, I at least am able to forgive (to a point) both ponies.

And then you bring Boing into this. Frankly, I seem to see that incident in an entirely different light than you do--I see it as a tragic accident caused by Boing basically being caught in the (metaphorical) crossfire. To me it doesn't matter that she survived; rather, I see it as little different from if, say, Blackjack had thrown a grenade at some Harbingers chasing her, not seeing Boing hiding in a ditch, and Boing being killed by the shrapnel. Of course Blackjack can feel bad about harming her; it's appropriate, even. But more than anything (and this is just my opinion) Boing's near-death was a result of the Harbingers' actions and a bit of bad luck: she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Would it be better if Blackjack could operate with a 0% collateral damage rate? Yes. Is it realistic to expect her to? No. Is that what she aims for? Yes. Does the fact that she is fallible, and thus unable to achieve her goals to the tee, make her a monster? Certainly not.

Moreover, Boing wasn't so much sweeping the attack under the rug as stating that it's what she had come to expect from everyone and everything. She was making the point that Blackjack was a monster, just like everyone else.

As for the possibility of her going off the deep end, I really have to disagree with the way you are thinking about the issue. Yes, Deus' friends' refusal to forgive him played a role in his transformation; that doesn't change the fact that afterwards he became a bringer of destruction and pain throughout Hoofington, both as a tool for Sanguine and in service of personal gratification. Blackjack hasn't done that; there are some cases where, perhaps, she has gone pretty scary in her mode of operations, but she was doing so in self-preservation against decidedly evil foes. When we see her indiscriminately rape and murder those around her, then we can talk about whether we can forgive her. But to say that we have forgiven her for things she might do under situations that have not occurred is just a strange (unless perhaps you are of the opinion that thoughts and desires are themselves sinful, even if not acted upon--I do not subscribe to that opinion). Might she go Maiden of Stars without the support of her friends? Sure. Might she do so even with? Yeah; we don't know just how her story will end. Might Doof have avoided becoming a serial-rapist and murderer if Vanity, Twist, and the others had extended a measure of forgiveness to him? Perhaps. Could he have avoided it even without? You might be able to make an argument about the killing in service of Sanguine, but the serial-rape wasn't forced on him. I'm not saying that the deck wasn't stacked against him, compared to Blackjack, but each of them could have gone the other way, but didn't or haven't so far.

Moving on a bit, it's worth mentioning that there are things that I haven't entirely forgiven Blackjack for. To give two examples, Scoodle still leaves something of a bad taste in my mouth, and I believe that she deeply wronged Silver Spoon in the manner in which she recruited her for the Hightower heist. The thing is, I just don't believe that isolated incidents should define my understanding of a person, but rather should inform that understanding within the context of his other actions. There, I believe that Blackjack stands up much better than Deus. One of the things I think that you may have bundled into "nitpick[ing] in the details" is sequence: Blackjack's major crimes occurred early on, she has since tried to improve herself and make up for them, and in the process of doing so she has rendered great service to the Wasteland; Doofus' crimes, in contrast, came at the end of his life, he was unrepentant, and never sought to change himself for the better or improve the situation after he became Deus. Yes, in each case the good and the bad should both be considered, but to me, the person one becomes should be weighted more heavily than the person one once was: directionality matters, and Blackjack's story has been one of a woman striving to be better than she is and was (and "was" was damn bad, but with some mitigating circumstances), while fighting the possibility of becoming a monster; Doofus' is one of a good man whose life was turned upside down by a critical error in judgement, and who for a time tried to do better, but who ultimately allowed the fallout from that mistake to fundamentally change his character for the worse. And calling that distinction a "detail" to be "nitpick[ed]" seems to be making an extremely strong claim, one which I cannot subscribe to.

On your last point, I do agree. Blackjack's readiness to forgive is probably her greatest gift to the Wasteland, and her friends' continued belief in her is undoubtedly a great help in keeping her on the right track. On that basis, I think she could be a candidate for Generosity, but that's really neither here nor there.

Oh, and my Steam name is Nimloth, but I've never been that into TF2. It just seems like all the cool kids are sharing, and I want to be popular .

Responses to intervening posts potentially forthcoming.

There are a whole lot of good points in there, and I don't really think I'm a good enough debater to go toe to toe with each of them. But there is one thing I can zero in on that will help me explain further something I don't think I described in enough detail, so I'm gonna zero in on this.

Icy Shake wrote:Blackjack's story has been one of a woman striving to be better than she is and was (and "was" was damn bad, but with some mitigating circumstances), while fighting the possibility of becoming a monster; Doofus' is one of a good man whose life was turned upside down by a critical error in judgement, and who for a time tried to do better, but who ultimately allowed the fallout from that mistake to fundamentally change his character for the worse.

The issue here is that one of these stories is only half finished. Blackjack is a good person, trying to make things better and make herself better. Doofus was similar. But his story is complete, and he became a monster. He walked his path as Blackjack is walking hers, and she is in very real danger of following it down Deus road. Yes, it isn't fair to compare Deus' crimes against those of Blackjack- because Deus isn't her counterpart. He's not a mirror, he is a warning. His crimes will be paltry compared to what Blackjack shall do if she loses track of herself the way Doof did. And it isn't that unlikely. She just needs a few less shoulders to cry on, a Vanity to tell her she doesn't deserve it...

Or here's a thought. Maybe this is exactly what's going to happen. Maybe her final trials will be shedding her friends and her support, left alone to walk the Maiden's path. We are treated to a mirror of Doof's final moments, and Blackjack... endures. Stays. I think I may be undercutting my entire thesis with this, but I can't help but feel like this scene is coming. One of the final trials.

FeatherDust wrote:

Meleagridis wrote:
Blackjack is a Deus we've chosen to forgive.

Not exactly, for two key reasons.

First, because Deus isn't doof. We can't forgive because of what he became, not because of his orignal crime. We could have forgiven him 200 years ago, before he turned into a monster who didn't care about anyone else - before he stopped trying to do better. He made mistakes, and his victim couldn't forgive - and that is normal. Boing can't forgive either. Or Daisy. P21 might, someday.

But that's what I'm saying. Doof we could forgive and wish well. Deus is a monster who must die. They aren't the same person. And maybe being Deus isn't Doof's fault. Sorry. He's still a monster.

And that leads into point 2: BJ particpated in a system that caused rape, but she was never herself violent. Those medtechs applying electrodes and medx would be just as unforgivable as Deus. Even in his "field tests" at the time, we see Deus is already a violent rapist. Not confused by bad advice and mixed signals. Not part of something he grew up with and didn't know better.

And that's why Doof we could forgive, BJ we could fogive, but not Deus...

I wish I could be as concise as you, as I think you hit most of the major points I was trying to make.

That said, I disagree on Blackjack's role. I think that she is as much to blame as the techs. But I also think that growing up basically brainwashed in a dictatorship crushing independent thought makes the acts somewhat more forgivable, if no less wrong.

Meleagridis wrote:

FeatherDust wrote:
We can't forgive because of what he became, not because of his orignal crime.
Doof we could forgive and wish well. Deus is a monster who must die.

Deus is already a violent rapist. Not confused by bad advice and mixed signals.
And that's why Doof we could forgive, BJ we could fogive, but not Deus...

Well, yes. Perhaps I should have said Doof, rather. But by now Blackjack has at least one crime of rage under her belt. Sleepless or not, she is guilty of trying to murder Boing. She's where Doof was at the point of breaking. So she may not be Deus, but she isn't all that far from becoming him. Still, I probably should have said Doof rather than Deus.
(And thanks, swicked)

I've already stated my thoughts on this, but let me say outside of a wall of text that I saw her injury as inadvertent collateral damage, and more the fault of the Harbingers than Blackjack.

Cptadder wrote:

swicked wrote:

A Doof born to the wasteland might very well have become a hero like Blackjack.

Doof WAS a hero, remember when he raped Twist was right after the Shattered Hoof incident. Before then he was a loyal member of the Marauders, a fine upstanding citizen who had a bit of an intelligence issue. Until that night he thought he had a chance with Twist and being an idiot read the signs wrong and forced himself on her, yes he had to know he was raping her at some level but we got inside his head that night way back in... whatever chapter it was and he was rationalizing it at the time in his own head.

And after being arrested, tried and sent to Hightower what did he do? He stood up for the weak, despite his crimes he was trying to make amends, trying to apologize as he understood what he had done had hurt Twist terribly, he even knew he would not be forgiven but he wanted to say he was sorry to her face because to him until he did say it... well that's the same as not being sorry. When Vanity sat him down and told him it was not going to happen he turned back the other way, he broke and he put himself back together into the Deus that Blackjack met and then helped kill.

Yep. Pretty much this.

Kippershy wrote:

swicked wrote:

FeatherDust wrote:And that leads into point 2: BJ particpated in a system that caused rape, but she was never herself violent. Those medtechs applying electrodes and medx would be just as unforgivable as Deus. Even in his "field tests" at the time, we see Deus is already a violent rapist. Not confused by bad advice and mixed signals. Not part of something he grew up with and didn't know better.

And that's why Doof we could forgive, BJ we could fogive, but not Deus...

Urge to invoke Godwin's law rising...

In any case, what should really be called normal, here?
In the time prior to and during the war, there was still a fair amount of harmony. Rape immediately made a monster out of deus... while "now", in the wasteland, monsters are commonplace. I have to wonder if the act would still be treated with the same amount of scorn. If Boing is any indication, a fair amount of the wasteland might find it commonplace.
I'm reminded of the security mare at the meatlocker bemoaning how death is forgotten within days. People don't hold as many grudges and just try to carry on.
A Doof born to the wasteland might very well have become a hero like Blackjack.

The end justifies the means.
What the Nazi's did was indeed wrong, and there was much better, less violent solutions they could've used (like simply expelling all Jews, gays, gypsies and so on away from Germany/Austria) but without their research and their developments... without the necessity of war, technology and culture would be a far ways behind where it is currently.

How much longer do you think it would've taken to develop practical use jet engines, rockets, medicines and so on without the necessity of war pushing it along?
What about the scientific breakthroughs in medical / physiological science that the Nazi's brought us through extensive testing on both "true Aryan" and "non Aryan" peoples, on twins, on the mentally deficient...

How much longer (if at all) would it have taken for nuclear science to become a reality without the pressure of war encouraging its research and development... the dangers of radiation and the uses of it, too. X ray machines, chemotherapy, you name it.



The Nazi's did a lot of bad things, but they also did a lot of wonderful things by making the necessity for it.

I had a whole thing on this, but in the end I decided it came down to semantics over what are identified as "ends" and "means" in specific instances, and thus basically a waste of time. Let's here it for the exhibition of a modicum of self control!

Meleagridis wrote:There are a whole lot of good points in there, and I don't really think I'm a good enough debater to go toe to toe with each of them. But there is one thing I can zero in on that will help me explain further something I don't think I described in enough detail, so I'm gonna zero in on this.

Icy Shake wrote:Blackjack's story has been one of a woman striving to be better than she is and was (and "was" was damn bad, but with some mitigating circumstances), while fighting the possibility of becoming a monster; Doofus' is one of a good man whose life was turned upside down by a critical error in judgement, and who for a time tried to do better, but who ultimately allowed the fallout from that mistake to fundamentally change his character for the worse.

The issue here is that one of these stories is only half finished. Blackjack is a good person, trying to make things better and make herself better. Doofus was similar. But his story is complete, and he became a monster. He walked his path as Blackjack is walking hers, and she is in very real danger of following it down Deus road. Yes, it isn't fair to compare Deus' crimes against those of Blackjack- because Deus isn't her counterpart. He's not a mirror, he is a warning. His crimes will be paltry compared to what Blackjack shall do if she loses track of herself the way Doof did. And it isn't that unlikely. She just needs a few less shoulders to cry on, a Vanity to tell her she doesn't deserve it...

Or here's a thought. Maybe this is exactly what's going to happen. Maybe her final trials will be shedding her friends and her support, left alone to walk the Maiden's path. We are treated to a mirror of Doof's final moments, and Blackjack... endures. Stays. I think I may be undercutting my entire thesis with this, but I can't help but feel like this scene is coming. One of the final trials.

Okay, I'm with you here. But that was much of my point: I'm not going to judge her based on what she hasn't yet done. Everyone, after all, is a potential monster.

I could definitely see your proposal happen, though. It really does feel right, in the setup of the courses their lives have taken and in Blackjack's own worries. If so, I will certainly enjoy seeing how it plays out.

I wanna be a cool kid too! Since everyone is doing it, Steam ID: iLateral GX

I already added some of you I believe, but still!

I'd love to play Mann vs. machine sometime
here's my steam ID: stringtheory
if that doesn't work try stringtheory178
my picture is the same as the one on here

ScytoHarmony wrote:
Oh, I'm looking for everything. So far the only one I'm following is Little-Miss-Rarity and Little-Miss-JAY.

Ask Doctor Colgate- If Colgate was a comically horrible dentist!

Ask Security- Only text. Say, does someone from here run this?

Ask GDBM- Big Mac isn't very good at being evil, and he's even worse at not being hilarious. Mel's Seal of Recommendation!

Ask Twilight's Bagel

Ask Palette Swap- A painting pony

Raider and Kid- A wasteland Raider and her Kid. I can't tell if it's dead or not, though.

Ask a Hobo Pony- The horrible cartoonish misadventures of Hobo Pony!

ASK HOTBLOODED PINKIE PIE- Hey you crazy Internet users. I'm a pony. BUT NOT JUST ANY PONY. I'M A HOTBLOODED PINKIE PIE PONY.

Dan vs. FiM- Dan hates you. USUALLY IN CAPS LOCK. (I've never seen Dan vs.)

Ask Octavia- Just back from Hiatus!

Ask the Pie Sisters- The antics of two rock farmers, and sometimes Pinkie.

Ask Surprise- A big one. Mel's Seal of Recommendation!

Ask Plumsweet- Sugar. Just... sugar.

Carrot Top's Garden- An simple style with long comics for most answers.

Statued Discord Replace- Discord in the collective unconscious.

Discorderly Conduct- Discord everywhere. A big one. Mel's Seal of Recommendation!

Ask Rarity's Manikins- Rarity's Manikin's are alive! And terrifying! And adorable! It just entered an arc, so it looks like the grimdark is taking over for a while. But there's also a bunch of ask stuff, too.

Ask Creepy Ponies- Ask four very unique individuals.

Cupidite- Quality Chrysalis blog. Mel's Seal of Recommendation!

Ask Pun- A very interesting collaboration project. Also puns (And my favourite explanation for all the pun places in FiM).

Ask Mafia Octavia- After the cider prohibition, some ponies needed to adapt to survive.

And a link to the aforementioned Woonastuck. Mel's Seal of Recommendation!

To name a couple.

Ugh look at all this awesome thought provoking stuff I don't have time to contribute to at the moment.

Someone should make a wiki specifically for PH, the FoE wiki is decent for the main story but the PH material is strongly lacking and there's more than enough unique material in PH to justify its own wiki. Hmm...

Icy Shake wrote:

Kippershy wrote:Blahblahblahblahblah

I had a whole thing on this, but in the end I decided it came down to semantics over what are identified as "ends" and "means" in specific instances, and thus basically a waste of time. Let's here it for the exhibition of a modicum of self control!

I'll give in to one thing; the ends doesn't always justify the means. For me, it matters WHAT the ends are (relative to PH, it'd be the removal of the EoS.) and just how extreme the means are.
Though with the right ends, practically all means, in my book, are justifiable.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki - in my mind - was a perfect example of when the ends justify the means.
Yes, millions died. Yes, it was a horrific event that should never go forgotten in history - but it did the purpose it was set out to do. It ended a long and bloody war that would've only been worse if the invasion of the Japanese home isles had been carried out.
There was a lot of loss that can never be undone, and perhaps there could've been another way (apart from invading the home isles) but the likelihood was so low it wasn't even worth chasing up in that situation.

Sometimes dark, destructive, terrible things must be done to depose an even darker, more destructive and terrible present/future.

You can indeed justify anything, but to make it a reasonable justification? You should never work to find a reason to justify your actions, but instead, find the actions required to reach an end.


If you're acting the way you are in hopes it'll randomly fix things, you've gone off course and can't justify your actions.
If you're acting the way you are because you believe it will bring an end to something, it can usually be justified - if not sympathised with.

hey, what are you guy's thoughts on starting a PHCC steam group?
I know we're pretty small but I'm finding it a pain searching and adding all of you (yes, I'm lazy)
password would be say...blackjack or ourgreygoddess

I really wonder about an alternate storyline version...
Rampage the Reaper, living in the Arena, manages to get some of her personalities to surface, and not panic but be constructive, learn about the current situation and accept the reality of Wastelands. Specifically, from her personalities - Twist.
She talks with Deus about that. Deus gets the opportunity to apologize and Twist grants him the chance reluctantly but willingly.

What now?

[sorry for missing so long, I fell back in reading and really really wanted to avoid spoilers.]

An alternate version where all the reapers learn to team up together to fight evil in the wasteland with Blackjack would be interesting since they're all quite a merry band of freaks in their own right. A giant fuckoff metal monster with a reformed heart of gold would be adorable.

Mainly I'd want a scene of Blackjack riding on happy Deus's back waving a cowboy hat.

also, more commentary later but the "extra" in form of the alternate batponies encounter gave me suddenly a whole lot more respect for editors of PH.

As I understand, that abandoned piece was left unedited... and damn was it a mess! Somber has some wonderful imagination and can create wonderful descriptions when (s)he puts heart to it, but when pouring a rapid stream of consciousness, the result is really hard to follow. I mean, only when the fight ended I understood the count of the attacking batponies. Otherwise, I had no idea who was doing what and how many of them there were, especially without names and with sparse descriptions and alternates exchanged frequently. I'm sure editors could make it readable, interesting and even awesome eventually as they do with many such scenes, but... damn, I didn't realize the source material can be so badly garbled and they still manage to straighten it out.

(...in the end I'm glad that scene was scrapped. The alternative used is much more neat story-wise too.)

RandomBlank wrote:I really wonder about an alternate storyline version...
Rampage the Reaper, living in the Arena, manages to get some of her personalities to surface, and not panic but be constructive, learn about the current situation and accept the reality of Wastelands. Specifically, from her personalities - Twist.
She talks with Deus about that. Deus gets the opportunity to apologize and Twist grants him the chance reluctantly but willingly.

What now?

[sorry for missing so long, I fell back in reading and really really wanted to avoid spoilers.]

Caoimhe wrote:An alternate version where all the reapers learn to team up together to fight evil in the wasteland with Blackjack would be interesting since they're all quite a merry band of freaks in their own right. A giant fuckoff metal monster with a reformed heart of gold would be adorable.

Mainly I'd want a scene of Blackjack riding on happy Deus's back waving a cowboy hat.

Hm... Actually, this has gotten me thinking. In this alternate world where Deus makes up with Twist!Rampage, does Blackjack even enter things? If Deus gets forgiveness for the thing that started it all, does he start rethinking things and maybe not invade 99? Sanguine still wants EC-1101, of course, but how does he collect it without Deus? How does whoever he sends do it; would they perhaps try negotiation?

Of course, in this world where Blackjack continues living relatively happily with her mother in a 99 ruled by Maintenance and Security, P-21 goes out into the Wasteland, probably with U-21 and possibly to join Sanguine, Glory dies in the vent, Lacunae continues aimlessly hanging about Chapel, and Boo continues scrabbling around in Hippocratic, trying not to get eaten. Riverside dies out, the Sand Dogs probably following eventually. Though, beyond that... Rampage has just experienced a big shift in her life, and the Reapers and Steel Rangers are nearly at war again.

Now I'm wondering what PH would be like in a world like that, with that Rampage and Deus as the first two main characters off to fight the Steel Rangers. Deus and Steel Rain could get into a gunner duel, for one thing. Then Psychoshy arrives seeking help from the Reapers after she and Sanguine were attacked for the program in her PipBuck... I'm not sure how it would go from there, but it would certainly be very different.

So these ideas might become plot threads for a possible Project Horizons Game?

:P

Caoimhe wrote:
Mainly I'd want a scene of Blackjack riding on happy Deus's back waving a cowboy hat.

I still don't think he'd be happy. In fact, the way I can see this, it would be the most undynamic pose he'd ever be in. Grumpy. Hilariously grumpy.

O. Hinds wrote:
P-21 goes out into the Wasteland, probably with U-21 and possibly to join Sanguine, and Boo continues scrabbling around in Hippocratic, trying not to get eaten. Riverside dies out, the Sand Dogs probably following eventually.

Would P-21 and U-21 end up in Hippocratic? Would either of them be decent enough to help Boo? And what would happen to the rest of the monsterponies?

Once there were only a handful, Rover could probably find enough gems for them. At some point, they'd be forced to go wandering, at the mercy of chance.

But something that needs to be considered: If Deus is no longer a rampaging monster, what is he? Is he going to sit on his laurels? Would he try and get something done? All he knows is that an evil buck wants a program. Is that enough to drive him on the same world saving road? Imagine Deus and his gathered army of raiders- peaceably entering 99. Re-Doof trying to keep his little army from making things worse as he tries to find the program. The crazy Overmare causing problems, probably turning the army violent or just turning her forces on them. Remember- she was getting ready for a revolution in there. And assuming Blackjack had the same tenacity in this alternate reality... can you imagine what she'd be if she turned raider? Think of that reversal. Doof, trying not to be more monstrous than he already is, refuses to put down this mare that he could crush easily underneath his heel. She gets spared and becomes a horrifying force of misery in the hoof.

I am growing more and more interested in a world where Doof is Blackjack and Rampage is P-21. It doesn't sound very plausible or happy-endingable, but... interesting, nonetheless.

Anyways, what I was trying to say: Doof would be doing things now. He may not save in the exact same way, but he has more than enough to make a difference and he will probably pass through some of the same places as Blackjack.

I'd have to read back but I suppose Sanguine could recruit another one of the Reapers. Possibly..uhh, whatshisname that was back at the stadium. Perhaps then Blackjack, seeing an amicable Deus and Rampage there, would be more inclined to enlist the help of Big Daddy. Lots of possibilities here.

When I was younger I love love LOVED playing adventure games. One of my favourites was Full Throttle which in itself was in a Mad Max style post apocalyptic world. With all the puzzle solving involved in PH, I think that would be a great genre for the story to take on. Hell, I've already seen somewhere a pony related adventure game in the works.

Meleagridis wrote:

Caoimhe wrote:
Mainly I'd want a scene of Blackjack riding on happy Deus's back waving a cowboy hat.

I still don't think he'd be happy. In fact, the way I can see this, it would be the most undynamic pose he'd ever be in. Grumpy. Hilariously grumpy.

Oh Lordy, a giant piece of grumpy man meat for P-21 to share with. This gets more hilarious by the minute.

Would this be considered fan fiction fan fiction fan fiction?

Caoimhe wrote:Would this be considered fan fiction fan fiction fan fiction?

nope, it's still just Recursive Fanfiction, just to the third power instead of the second (and if you look under the western animation examples Project Horizons is listed)

Curse you stringtheory! I just got out of that black hole!

OneMoreDaySK wrote:Curse you stringtheory! I just got out of that black hole!

MWUHAAAA HA HA HA! say goodbye to your precious productivity for the next four hours! HA HA HA HA HA!

fortunately my immunity to the site is at the level where if I'm looking for one specific trope I don't get sucked in, but if I'm broswing...

plus I recently discovered the Trope Pantheons, so say goodbye to another four hours worth of productivity, HA HA HA HA HA!

Meleagridis wrote:Blackjack is a Deus we've chosen to forgive.

Actually I chose to forgive Deus too.
But you make some very good points, sir. And this whole discussion about the way an alternate version of the Wasteland might work out is really quite fascinating. I wish I had something to contribute, but you all seem to have it well-in-hoof.

ScytoHarmony wrote:Anyone have any suggestions of good pony-tumblrs to follow? Doesn't Wave have one?

I thought you said you wanted good tumblrs...
Anyways, I'm following 687 tumblrs (less though, as I've begun trimming ones that irritate me more than they're worth), so I have a few I'd suggest. And if you really want to subject yourself to such punishment, the links to my three tumblrs are in my signature (though my OC tumblr... might be on permanent hiatus... I haven't decided yet).

Tumblr Suggestions:

OneMoreDaySK wrote:So these ideas might become plot threads for a possible Project Horizons Game? :P

Oh, if only...

Whew, thought I forgot my p[assword for a moment

SOMBER YOU BASTARD FUCKING A

THIS WAS SOME OF THE FUNNEST FUCKING SHIT IVE READ INB A FUCKING LONG TIME so Fuck you that horse you rode in on. Fucking a fucking personality that can fucking write. This was fucking fantastic and you're such a fucking fun lread
fuck, I should fucking read this more often.(buzzed)

fuck you you god damned fucking fantastic fucker!

Love you

Fuck

stringtheory wrote:

OneMoreDaySK wrote:Curse you stringtheory! I just got out of that black hole!

MWUHAAAA HA HA HA! say goodbye to your precious productivity for the next four hours! HA HA HA HA HA!

fortunately my immunity to the site is at the level where if I'm looking for one specific trope I don't get sucked in, but if I'm broswing...

plus I recently discovered the Trope Pantheons, so say goodbye to another four hours worth of productivity, HA HA HA HA HA!

...I was going to work on my fic. And now my readers--which I can count on my fingers --will have to wait longer.