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[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:25 pm

Rafafidi wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:...Big Black Train...
Your train still lacks a large calliber weapon to clear the tracks of obstacles, like a boulder in the way.
I would suggest at least one more machinegun each side, because if one of these four become inoperative, you'll have a huge blind spot.
What are those big white spheres at the top?
(Great, you dragged me to your crazy train talk. Are you happy now?)
Hm... Not that big a blindspot at range if the two nearer turrets cover for it. As for adding more turrets... I don't know. Each requires additional support equipment and ammunition storage inside, and I'm not sure where I could put them and remain within the loading gauge.

For both blindspot coverage, if necessary, and the removal of large obstacles, couldn't the missiles just be used? Sure, missiles don't grow on trees, but it strikes me as even more excessive to be hauling around artillery on the offchance you might need it.

The white spheres house the locomotive's two primary antenna assemblies.

Icy Shake wrote:Re: models. Those look amazing.
Thanks!

swicked wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
swicked wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:Oh, by the way, I think that I'll use a Janney coupler for its load capacity and potential political reasons precluding the use of some fully automatic coupler design. That sound good?
This was the one that got me giggling inconsolably about the entire discussion. It's just so amazing XD

I'm sure there's a completely legitimate political fanon reason for why it would be politically correct to use a particular coupler on our my little pony (not even fallout: equestria) cartoon train... but I'll have none of it XD
Oh, no, this is for FoE. Sadly, I've not been able to identify the coupler used on the show.
...really? But all your measurements and calculations have been based on screen captures, and isn't the war supposed to be at least ten years after the show?
How are you altering your designs to accommodate changes in... I dunno, I guess technology, the fact that trains are no longer horse-aided (or are they?), most trains likely more cargo and less passenger... Eh. You've probably already covered all this and I just wasn't paying close enough attention XD
...To be honest, I'm afraid that I don't really understand how your questions are applicable. Yes, we've been working with screen captures, but we've been studying the rail gauges and track curve radii, not the rolling stock. Why would Equestria have altered its own track and loading gauges due to the war (curve radii might have been altered, but only, I expect, to be larger)? Also, even if, for some reason, it was desired that this locomotive operate with preapocalypse Equestrian cars, I don't see why a match wagon couldn't be provided if there were any differences in coupler and control designs.

(Also, my personal view is that the Over a Barrel thing was a FLUKE caused by a breakdown; trains displayed since, after all, have been operating under locomotive power. My headcanon for why locomotives are pulled in the Equestrian Wasteland is that the boiler is being used as a pneumatic pressure reservoir and that the pistons have been converted to have a pump mode (not a very difficult task); the store pressure is used as an assist but primarily for the whistle, which helps clear the tracks and is particularly effective against hellhounds.)

Sindri wrote:psioic
What does this word mean? I don't believe that I've encountered it before, and the internet isn't helping.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:27 pm

swicked wrote:Sindri: *talks about how some ponies might genetically be one thing, but spiritually another*
Swicked: *agrees, offers two examples*
Sindri: Nah, they're just weird. Like hemaphrodites.
Swicked: 🍌
I was saying that a pony could be a genetic aberration displaing traits from multiple types, not that they were genetically one type and spiritually another. In fact I haven't used the word 'spiritually' all week that I can recall...



FeatherDust wrote:Doesn't work. Try to write up an inheritance whereby both parents express earth pony but the kids are one of each other.
Two separate switches, one takes priority over the other.

pp means pegasus, whether it's ppUU, ppUu, or ppuu.
uu means unicorn unless you're a pegaus (Ppuu or PPuu)
if the dominant gene comes up on both sides, you're an earth pony (PPUU, PPUu, PpUU, PpUu).
With two ponies with the PpUu genotype, both are earth ponies. However, they have a 1/4 chance of producing a child with a uu and a 1/4 chance of producing a child with pp by a basic punnet square, leading to a total of 4/16 chance of the child being a pegasus and 3/16 chance of it being a unicorn.

The simplest explanation is that the Cakes both have the PpUu genotype. And while that could have resulted from their parents being a homozygous pegasus (ppuu) and a homozygous earth pony (PPUU), it's more likely that they've come from a long line of heterozygous earth ponies; Pp and Pp or Pp and PPmake another Pp half the time and it's not all that improbable that there hasn't been a single non-earth pony in their direct lineage since longer ago than they have records of, but the unicorns and pegasi produced elsewhere in their family tree prove that the recessive genes are there.

(The math works out the same if you switch whether unicorn or pegasus takes priority, and we don't have evidence either way, but I prefer this version because it means every child of a pegasus will be a pegasus and thus the foals don't have a random chance of falling right through their cloud when they're born unless something goes very wrong.)



FeatherDust wrote:Fluttershy never saw the ground before she was in flight school. Ergo, both her parents are pegasi.
True. But that doesn't matter. Every pegasus carries the code to build the body of an earth pony, it just remains inactive because their pp genotype keeps it suppressed.


The thing you need to understand here is that you cannot program a complex structure with a single line of code, and anything spread across many lines will be blurred by mixed parentage instead of having a simple on/off switch (like how you don't end up the exact height of one or the other of your parents, but usually somewhere in between with a small chance of going past both in either direction). That means that if, say, the code for wings was only carried by pegasi, the child of a pegasus and an earth pony wouldn't either have wings or not, they would have half of the code for wings. Best case this gives them tiny stunted deformed things coming out of their sides, more likely it just kills them.
We know that ponies of different types can interbreed without horrors, and that in the overwhelming majority of cases the foal belongs to one of the three established types of pony. Therefore there must be something in their DNA simple enough to just say 'yes' or 'no' to each of the pony types as they develop, and since that can't be carrying the full code for building the entire body in that type, the code needs to already be there to activate or not.



O. Hinds wrote:
Sindri wrote:psioic
What does this word mean? I don't believe that I've encountered it before, and the internet isn't helping.
Sorry, should be psionic. Basically the same as psychic, but with less connotations of magic crystals and new-age ritualistic crap. I was referring specifically to her Pinkie Sense, which appears to be some manner of ESP.


Last edited by Sindri on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:29 pm

Oh, I think that I'll go ahead and eliminate the glow from the cameras. Sorry about that; I used my basic "window" shader for them, and it includes a glow representing interior lights.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:08 pm

With the new camera shader:

Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank whoever it was who connected this forum to the image hosting service.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:12 pm

Sindri wrote:
swicked wrote:Sindri: *talks about how some ponies might genetically be one thing, but spiritually another*
Swicked: *agrees, offers two examples*
Sindri: Nah, they're just weird. Like hemaphrodites.
Swicked: 🍌
I was saying that a pony could be a genetic aberration displaing traits from multiple types, not that they were genetically one type and spiritually another. In fact I haven't used the word 'spiritually' all week that I can recall...
Nah, I knew what you meant. It's just been a really bad day and I felt like being stupid. Ignore me XP

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:16 pm

Oh, and does anyone think that it's a problem that the horns are on the forward antenna dome's LoS to the horizon directly ahead?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:19 pm

O. Hinds wrote:Oh, and does anyone think that it's a problem that the horns are on the forward antenna dome's LoS to the horizon directly ahead?
Nope. That is a design feature that absolutely could never come back to bite you and would certainly not be taken advantage of by your sneaky enemies. Applejack
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Kippershy on Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:27 pm

So, it really needs touching up with the buildings on the second layer that went all weird, but I can get that done tomorrow.
I know it's not actually the hoof, but he's a city similar to the hoof that I just did a mock-up of real quick.

Edit: meant to say, wondered what people think. This is also how I imagine the inner city of hoofington, with some minor variations (like the wall / turrets and such. A little more detail of course.)

(edit two: you have to click 'view image' via right click to see the whole thing)

Spoiler:
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Rafafidi on Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:35 pm

O. Hinds wrote:Hm... Not that big a blindspot at range if the two nearer turrets cover for it. As for adding more turrets... I don't know. Each requires additional support equipment and ammunition storage inside, and I'm not sure where I could put them and remain within the loading gauge.

For both blindspot coverage, if necessary, and the removal of large obstacles, couldn't the missiles just be used? Sure, missiles don't grow on trees, but it strikes me as even more excessive to be hauling around artillery on the offchance you might need it.

The white spheres house the locomotive's two primary antenna assemblies.
I imagine that animal life in the zebra-land would be a radiated version of the current African fauna:
giant rhinos with bulletproof hide that could flip the train like a toy and packs of lions/hyenas who whould mob and bite off your turrets.
Against that, the turrets look too exposed. I don't know what size of missile you'll put in there, but too big and you couldn't carry enough, and too small wouldn't penetrate in a thick hide or pulverize a boulder. While a cannon is bigger than a rocket launcher, the shells are smaller than a missile, cheaper and easier to make. And you can load the cannon with shrapnel shells and use it as a giant shotgun
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by SilentCarto on Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:43 pm

Icy Shake wrote:On a semi-related note, how is it that the Apples are always on the edge of destitution or ruin, yet appear to be major landowners with no external labor costs and robust sales?'
It's very common for farmers to spend most of the year in debt. They have a high outlay at the beginning of the growing season, but no return until harvest time. The episode glossed over most of the exact economics, but the implication is that they would have to sell the farm in order to cover their debts. One year can be all it takes to doom a small landowner -- thus the rise of "factory farms", where a large corporation can absorb the cost of one failed crop and make up for it from the profits of other locations.

Icy Shake wrote:Eh, I largely agree with you here, but I just can't help but think that using monopoly power to prevent new entrance to the market is bad overall. It would be one thing if they just sold cider, but since they sell apples at retail (and frankly have to sell at wholesale as well, given their output), refusing to sell to potential cider competitors (especially if you barred other customers from reselling to them) would be, to my mind, inappropriate anitcompetitive practices. I guess they could just stop selling apples during cider season, but I get the feeling that cider season is such just because it's when the Apples decide to go into brewing mode.
The Apples in no way exercised monopoly here. The cidering apples were not for sale in the first place; they were earmarked for internal use in making cider. The brothers are free to buy Apple Family Cider if they want to, but they can't demand that the Apples sell something they weren't intending to sell in the first place. That would be as absurd as coming to my garage sale and demanding to root through my closet.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Erumpet on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:00 pm

@Silentcarto: I wasn't under the impression that the apple family had specific apples set aside for cider making, it appeared they just used their regular crop apples. If you are correct and those apples were specifically for cider, then I would agree with you. But I don't believe that is the case, especially since I'm sure the brothers would have bought regular apples and cider pressed them. The quality might be lower, but it's either brothers slightly off cider or no cider at all, so I think they could have made money there. And unscrupulous or not, they were certainly savvy enough traveling sales ponies nonpareil to see that.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Stringtheory on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:09 pm

@All the recent topics
you know there hasn't been a new chapter for a while when discussions are this random...
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by SilentCarto on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:15 pm

Sindri wrote:The simplest explanation is that the Cakes both have the PpUu genotype. And while that could have resulted from their parents being a homozygous pegasus (ppuu) and a homozygous earth pony (PPUU), it's more likely that they've come from a long line of heterozygous earth ponies; Pp and Pp or Pp and PPmake another Pp half the time and it's not all that improbable that there hasn't been a single non-earth pony in their direct lineage since longer ago than they have records of, but the unicorns and pegasi produced elsewhere in their family tree prove that the recessive genes are there.
I just want to note that this presupposes that phenotype is based wholly on genetics, rather than on developmental factors or a combination of developmental factors activating genes.

Suppose instead that all ponies code for all phenotypes, and the mother produces hormones which "tell" the baby which phenotype to express.* If Cup Cake had a mutant gene for this hormone, it might remove the restriction on which phenotype is expressed. That's not to say that means she could potentially give birth to an alicorn -- the phenotype is far deeper than simply coding for horns and wings. It governs the development of the entire magic system (so to speak) and that can only take one of the possible courses at a time. Having any combination of magical traits would be akin to growing multiple arms from the same shoulder.

*Evidence on the children of interracial couples in the show is very thin, so its hard to make any definitive claims about how often the child shares the father's type versus sharing neither parent's.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:17 pm

Sindri wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:Oh, and does anyone think that it's a problem that the horns are on the forward antenna dome's LoS to the horizon directly ahead?
Nope. That is a design feature that absolutely could never come back to bite you and would certainly not be taken advantage of by your sneaky enemies. Applejack
It's not quite that bad; I'm not sure that the horns even block the entire signal, and most of the locomotive's environmental input is via the cameras and other sensors. The primary purpose of the antennas in the domes is maintaining RCaNN connectivity (though that could also provide environmental data, of course).

Rafafidi wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:Hm... Not that big a blindspot at range if the two nearer turrets cover for it. As for adding more turrets... I don't know. Each requires additional support equipment and ammunition storage inside, and I'm not sure where I could put them and remain within the loading gauge.

For both blindspot coverage, if necessary, and the removal of large obstacles, couldn't the missiles just be used? Sure, missiles don't grow on trees, but it strikes me as even more excessive to be hauling around artillery on the offchance you might need it.

The white spheres house the locomotive's two primary antenna assemblies.
I imagine that animal life in the zebra-land would be a radiated version of the current African fauna:
giant rhinos with bulletproof hide that could flip the train like a toy and packs of lions/hyenas who whould mob and bite off your turrets.
Against that, the turrets look too exposed. I don't know what size of missile you'll put in there, but too big and you couldn't carry enough, and too small wouldn't penetrate in a thick hide or pulverize a boulder. While a cannon is bigger than a rocket launcher, the shells are smaller than a missile, cheaper and easier to make. And you can load the cannon with shrapnel shells and use it as a giant shotgun
How could I make the turrets less exposed without reducing their fields of fire?

As for your concerns about missile strength... the builders have access to high-energy-density Zebra fuels and explosives, and there's not a bad chance that they could use balefire egg warheads too. Also, while they're not GAU-8's, I could make the turret guns autocannons, and even 30mm machineguns pack a punch. Yes, an artillery piece could be useful for large numbers of really nasty things, but I don't see why it couldn't be mounted on a car specially designed for it, if you want to take the train into an area containing such things without clearing them out first.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by SilentCarto on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:21 pm

Erumpet wrote:@Silentcarto: I wasn't under the impression that the apple family had specific apples set aside for cider making, it appeared they just used their regular crop apples. If you are correct and those apples were specifically for cider, then I would agree with you. But I don't believe that is the case, especially since I'm sure the brothers would have bought regular apples and cider pressed them. The quality might be lower, but it's either brothers slightly off cider or no cider at all, so I think they could have made money there. And unscrupulous or not, they were certainly savvy enough traveling sales ponies nonpareil to see that.
In real life, there are certain apples which are noted as being particularly good for cidering. Given that Equestria apparently has the same cultivars with our world, I would assume they make the same distinction. Flim and Flam could have bought apples, yes, but they probably wouldn't be as fresh -- different cultivars ripen at different times, which is handy for avoiding the "Applebuck Season" problem.
I've learned waaaaay too much about apple farming because of this show... Applejack


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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Moodyman90 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:21 pm

Living on a farm, I can agree with Silent. We're the last farm in this part of the state with less then 1,000 acers of farmland to be full time farmers rather then the so called "weekend farmer" the guys who farm on the side and isn't their main source of income.
We even made more money last year then we have in years, even compensating for inflation, and yet we're having to borrow money, again, to pay for the chemical and fertilizer bills. I forgot which one but it was over $50,000. As soon as the crops come in we'll be able to pay back everything.

But yeah, it's realistic for a farm, any farm, to go under if they can't make payments. While the Apple's farm is mainly an apple farm its' shown to have cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, as well as other crops. So not only do they have to have enough to take care of the trees year round, there's also the feeding and care of livestock, repair and replacement of equipment and buildings, goodness knows if they have to pay taxes as well, and of course pay for food the whole year.

This is why I like Applejack so much, I can relate to her in various ways.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overlong Analysis Cobalt on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:32 pm

O. Hinds wrote:Battletrains!
Have you ever read the Joan Aiken book The Cockatrice Boys? It's for kids (sort of), but I recall it being pretty good, and it very prominently featured a heavily-armed and armored train designed to fight hordes of monsters.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Rafafidi on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:49 pm

O. Hinds wrote:Battletrains!
I would make the machineguns inside the hull(?) instead of bulging like that. About the field of fire, there is no easy way out of it, and that's why war tanks need the support of the infantary (as I'm sure you know).
And before I say anything more about your missile launcher, I would like to see it.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:56 pm

Rafafidi wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:Battletrains!
I would make the machineguns inside the hull(?) instead of bulging like that. About the field of fire, there is no easy way out of it, and that's why war tanks need the support of the infantary (as I'm sure you know).
And before I say anything more about your missile launcher, I would like to see it.
Yeah, but a train won't have infantry support; it needs to be capable of rolling solo at least against conventional monstrosities and bandit gangs. You could put smaller machineguns in ball-joint style turrets for full cover on their side, but that would take up a lot of hull space for each and the mechanics get messy, especially when you need to reload. You might be better off just putting enough cheap guns bolted to the exterior that you keep coverage after losing a few, and reequip as necessary at the station. Give each a couple of basic servos for aim, a control wire to the interior, maybe a simple targeting talisman, and it's own limited ammo supply and you can probably put a half dozen on there for the same cost in resources and space as a single hard, fancy, armored turret. It won't look nearly as clean and fancy, and it'll cost a bit when you're repairing after battle, but you get redundancy when you take hits and more dakka when you need to take something down fast or punch through a horde.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:26 pm

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:Battletrains!
Have you ever read the Joan Aiken book The Cockatrice Boys? It's for kids (sort of), but I recall it being pretty good, and it very prominently featured a heavily-armed and armored train designed to fight hordes of monsters.
I've not read that, no.

Rafafidi wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:Battletrains!
I would make the machineguns inside the hull(?) instead of bulging like that. About the field of fire, there is no easy way out of it, and that's why war tanks need the support of the infantary (as I'm sure you know).
And before I say anything more about your missile launcher, I would like to see it.
Aye, this locomotive's design would be rather different if it was designed as a battlefield vehicle.

See it? It's internal. What information did you want, exactly?

Sindri wrote:
Rafafidi wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:Battletrains!
I would make the machineguns inside the hull(?) instead of bulging like that. About the field of fire, there is no easy way out of it, and that's why war tanks need the support of the infantary (as I'm sure you know).
And before I say anything more about your missile launcher, I would like to see it.
Yeah, but a train won't have infantry support; it needs to be capable of rolling solo at least against conventional monstrosities and bandit gangs. You could put smaller machineguns in ball-joint style turrets for full cover on their side, but that would take up a lot of hull space for each and the mechanics get messy, especially when you need to reload. You might be better off just putting enough cheap guns bolted to the exterior that you keep coverage after losing a few, and reequip as necessary at the station. Give each a couple of basic servos for aim, a control wire to the interior, maybe a simple targeting talisman, and it's own limited ammo supply and you can probably put a half dozen on there for the same cost in resources and space as a single hard, fancy, armored turret. It won't look nearly as clean and fancy, and it'll cost a bit when you're repairing after battle, but you get redundancy when you take hits and more dakka when you need to take something down fast or punch through a horde.
Well, I'm afraid that, whether that's a good idea or not, I probably shan't be modeling it; my computer complains to me about this as it is.

As for whether that is a good idea... hm... A larger number of smaller guns would likely be better against a larger number of lightly-armored enemies, but what about stronger ones? Smaller guns also might not have the range or RoF to effectively engage airborne targets. The locomotive would have to use missiles more frequently, which would deplete the magazine and render the innards more susceptible to damage through the missile doors. Add in that the small turrets are weaker and, if they keep their magazines outside the train, have a much smaller ammunition supply, and... I don't know. The added redundancy would be good, certainly, but I'm not sure if the tradeoff would be a net positive.

Also, why provide each gun with a targeting talisman, or use targeting talismans at all, rather than just wiring them to the locomotive's computer system?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:27 pm

SilentCarto wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:On a semi-related note, how is it that the Apples are always on the edge of destitution or ruin, yet appear to be major landowners with no external labor costs and robust sales?'
It's very common for farmers to spend most of the year in debt. They have a high outlay at the beginning of the growing season, but no return until harvest time. The episode glossed over most of the exact economics, but the implication is that they would have to sell the farm in order to cover their debts. One year can be all it takes to doom a small landowner -- thus the rise of "factory farms", where a large corporation can absorb the cost of one failed crop and make up for it from the profits of other locations.

I'm somewhat familiar with the mechanics of farm/agricultural land debt (though more so with the latter, where the income is rental rather than operating). The problem I see here is that they seem to be running a low-capital establishment, they received the land by royal grant, and they don't seem to live extravagantly, so I'm not really sure where any long-term debt would have come from. They don't need to pay for seed on an annual basis, if at all; any planting expense is more akin to depreciation than anything else, and would probably be done by grafting anyway. As for bad crops, those should be a pretty extreme anomaly, since the weather is managed. I doubt they use chemical fertilizer, and unless they hold even more land than I think they do, the vast majority of it is devoted to orchards. I can see pigs being a money sink, since I don't know how they would monetize that, but I would expect that keeping cows would be cash-flow positive, as they would effectively be boarders. I guess that it could be they are just running a very low margin business, so even relatively small fixed charges could be problematic, but that doesn't exactly fit well considering that they have one line of business in which they have a natural monopoly providing unpredictable bonanzas, and another in which they have no competition for reasons never fully explained, giving large profits annually. Granted, for the latter the profit should probably be attributed largely to the cidering business segment rather than the farming, if the inter-department sales are made at arm's-length prices, but that just further reflects on the unprofitability of the farming operations.

And I'm not sure I would qualify them as small farmers; the place feels huge, and if pressed to give a size estimate I would say probably well over 1,000 acres. And it's not like 1,000 acres is a small amount; owning 1,000 acres would put them in the largest 11,000 landowners in Britain in the 1880s (and probably fewer in number than that), easily making them landed gentry; in 1851 in England and Wales over 40% of farms were smaller than 50 acres. Large farms have been a relatively recent phenomenon, even if large landholdings go back forever.
Or perhaps there's just a taxation regime in place that heavily discriminates against agricultural landholders. That could do it.

SilentCarto wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:Eh, I largely agree with you here, but I just can't help but think that using monopoly power to prevent new entrance to the market is bad overall. It would be one thing if they just sold cider, but since they sell apples at retail (and frankly have to sell at wholesale as well, given their output), refusing to sell to potential cider competitors (especially if you barred other customers from reselling to them) would be, to my mind, inappropriate anitcompetitive practices. I guess they could just stop selling apples during cider season, but I get the feeling that cider season is such just because it's when the Apples decide to go into brewing mode.
The Apples in no way exercised monopoly here. The cidering apples were not for sale in the first place; they were earmarked for internal use in making cider. The brothers are free to buy Apple Family Cider if they want to, but they can't demand that the Apples sell something they weren't intending to sell in the first place. That would be as absurd as coming to my garage sale and demanding to root through my closet.

Sorry, I was making the unfounded, unstated assumption that the cidering apples were not appreciably different from the apples sold wholesale in either qualities or time of harvest. In that case, I do think that there would be an issue.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:44 pm

O. Hinds wrote:A larger number of smaller guns would likely be better against a larger number of lightly-armored enemies, but what about stronger ones?
I was actually thinking of the same caliber of weapon as the ones you have on there, but stripped down to just the most basic mechanics instead of putting it in a large, complex, hardened turret assembly. You'd lose some accuracy with the lower-quality aiming mechanisms but you make that up in dakka. You can bolt a cannon to the exterior of the hull a lot more easily and cheaply than you can put the same gun in a shiny turret like the ones you have pictured there.
Also, why provide each gun with a targeting talisman, or use targeting talismans at all, rather than just wiring them to the locomotive's computer system?
I freely admit that I have no idea how an equestrian targeting talisman works.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Rafafidi on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:47 pm

@O.Hinds:
How does the missile launcher work? The ceilling open and the missile go out or there is a missile turret that can turn to the target?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by SilentCarto on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:50 pm

Icy Shake wrote: and another in which they have no competition for reasons never fully explained, giving large profits annually.
There's no evidence that there is no other source of cider. It's just that SAA cider is especially prized. Consider a bookstore on the night of the last Harry Potter book's release; there are thousands of books available, but these people have made a special trip and lined up out the door for just one. That doesn't mean J.K. Rowling is the only game in town.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:58 pm

Icy Shake wrote:SNOP
A monopoly only makes you huge profits if you exploit it to raise prices above what they would be with competition. Between their own generosity, the general kindness of ponies, and probable government mandates on maximum prices for basic staples, I doubt they're making the kinds of huge profits you seem to expect. Things like the nigh-perfect weather make each crop bigger and better than it would be for comparable farmers in our world, but that doesn't translate into more money; it probably translates into more ponies fed for the same amount. Which is great for eliminating the large-scale hunger problems humanity deals with, but doesn't mean the farmers are all going to be rich.


IIRC we've seen them selling large sacks of apples for a couple bits. It takes approximately one big-ass chest full of bits to, say, repair the barn roof. Cider season is great for them because they can turn a two-bit sack of apples into 40 bits worth of cider and recoup the losses of the rest of the year. Then the FlimFlams roll in and say, basically, give us 75% of your sales for the season or we'll run you out of town.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:16 pm

Sindri wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:A larger number of smaller guns would likely be better against a larger number of lightly-armored enemies, but what about stronger ones?
I was actually thinking of the same caliber of weapon as the ones you have on there, but stripped down to just the most basic mechanics instead of putting it in a large, complex, hardened turret assembly. You'd lose some accuracy with the lower-quality aiming mechanisms but you make that up in dakka. You can bolt a cannon to the exterior of the hull a lot more easily and cheaply than you can put the same gun in a shiny turret like the ones you have pictured there.
Hm... Might be tricky keeping side turrets like that in the loading gauge, though, especially if one adds in ammunition requirements. And side guns that large could interfere with both camera imaging and the missile launchers.

Sindri wrote:
Also, why provide each gun with a targeting talisman, or use targeting talismans at all, rather than just wiring them to the locomotive's computer system?
I freely admit that I have no idea how an equestrian targeting talisman works.
No, I mean, why use an Equestrian targeting system at all? You have the cameras providing environment data and pretty good 3D target tracking (all those overlapping fields of view), and you might even additional environmental data from the network. You have a sophisticated and powerful AI aboard, expandability a key part of its architecture. Why put a small, gem-dependant targeting unit on each gun when you can just link them up to the computer for a more powerful and reliable system?

Rafafidi wrote:@O.Hinds:
How does the missile launcher work? The ceilling open and the missile go out or there is a missile turret that can turn to the target?
A VLS could be made to work, but I was thinking that there'd be a horizontal slit door on either side of the train; inside the door is a rotator/launcher that takes a missile from the magazine, turns it to face forward or backward, and then fires it in one of two different modes. If the locomotive has barely more room than the loading gauge minimum, the launcher extends a cradle to put the missile just outside the armor. If there's enough room, though, the missile is simply ejected out the side to ignite in the air.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Rafafidi on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:27 pm

@O. Hinds
So the missile launcher can't aim more than forward or backward? What would you do if the attacker was at the side? Making the missile do a sharp curve and navigate around obstacles don't seem pratical.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Erumpet on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:40 pm

@Sindri: I don't think we have enough information to speculate on the price of apples. I remember ponies paying multiple bits for a single apple, but also buying bags of apples for no where near the amount of bits on a per apple basis that would entail, even accounting for buying in bulk.
@SilentCarto: as the Apple family is running an orchard, their expenses aren't nearly as high as those of a comparably sized annual farm. They don't buy new seeds, fertilizer, or other chemicals. They don't have to hire labor as the trees aren't all harvestable simultaneously, and they don't have a big planting season. Also, due to the fixed weather, they don't have to buy water during droughts or worry about flooding. There only costs are livestock, possibly taxes, maintenance, and personal. And we've seen and heard that the Apple family takes care of most of their own maintenance. Applejack built a cellar and Granny Smith fixed the fence. As for livestock, the chickens and cows probably make more than they cost, the sheep as well. The pigs may be a loss, but may not we don't know. As for personal, they are hardly living a life of excess and luxury. So overall, they are only paying taxes. As for income, they are the only source of local food for an entire town. The commercial advantage they gain from not needing to transport food or compete locally should allow them to make a fair amount of money. That all being said, if there is in fact a difference between eating apples and cider apples, which I am assured there is, the family is within their rights to refuse sale of cider apples to the brothers. However I think a mutually beneficial deal could have been made if the Apple family had not taken everything so personally.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:42 pm

Rafafidi wrote:@O. Hinds
So the missile launcher can't aim more than forward or backward? What would you do if the attacker was at the side? Making the missile do a sharp curve and navigate around obstacles don't seem pratical.
The direction you launch a real missile doesn't matter much; at low velocities like right after launch it should be able to reverse direction almost instantly. And since the initial launch would likely be straight out to the side, up down and sideways should be just as easy as forward.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ketchup on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:42 pm

I have a possible solution to ammunition, size and accuracy concerns surrounding the battletrain. Gatling or single-barreled laser weapons have consistent accuracy, are smaller and quieter than ballistic weapons and could be hooked up to the train's main powerplant.

Or, something akin to the phaser bank used on Star Trek's Starfleet vessels, which would allow for multiple arcs of fire from a single point accurately.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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