Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by Sindri Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:57 pm

Ironmonger wrote:I've noticed the combat aspect of the stories seem to be unpopular on this thread (I might be missing something), but I had a thought. For the sake of argument lets assume two combatants are unicorns of roughly equal telekinetic ability. Pony 1 has a bolt rifle similar to say a Kar98. Pony 2 has a Swiss K31. Difference being the German beat-stick flings bigger rounds and has a stronger action (can be modified for even bigger rounds safely) while the K31 can cycle much faster and is known for being very accurate and holds one round more than the Kar98. Who wins? What would be the most important factors in this situation?

Most important factor? Wielder skill and alertness. Followed closedly by positioning, though the extreme ends of either probably makes the other irrelevent. Then I suppose armor; all else being equal a less powerful round with better accuracy and rate of fire probably wins against unarmored or lightly armored targets, but if the opponent is a tank all that matters if whether you can penetrate it. How big the hole is tends to be secondary to where it goes and how many of them there are... unless one side isn't even making holes.

Somber wrote:::Creeps in... looks around... eyes widen in shock... creeps back out again and writes before everyone goes bonkers...::

Sorry!

by Cptadder Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:05 pm

Somber wrote:::Creeps in... looks around... eyes widen in shock... creeps back out again and writes before everyone goes bonkers...::

To late!
Also
Get an avatar!

@Ironmonger
Weapon difference at that level of combat is immaterial, if one unicorn is a fresh recruit and the other a skilled veteran you can expect no better than a 90% victory rate for the veteran regardless of which gun you give him.

You need to step up from the roots of those trees and look at the entire forest. How long does each gun cost to produce in time and bits. How easy is it to train someone on, how durable is it and how easy is maintenance when maintenance is required.

For example the extra round won't matter if the first shot is nearly always a kill shot. Likewise firing a larger bullet is not always more desirable because you must balance bullet weight VS amount of ammo carried.

by **RoboRed** Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:33 pm

Somber wrote:::Creeps in... looks around... eyes widen in shock... creeps back out again and writes before everyone goes bonkers...::

*grabs lasso* OH, NO YOU DON'T!!! Crazy

by Kippershy Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:36 pm

Somber wrote:::Creeps in... looks around... eyes widen in shock... creeps back out again and writes before everyone goes bonkers...::

Oh, you can't escape.
*puts my arms around you and licks your cheek until you give in and stay with us, losing your sanity a little more each and every day*

by Kippershy Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:44 pm

stringtheory wrote:
Somber wrote:::Creeps in... looks around... eyes widen in shock... creeps back out again and writes before everyone goes bonkers...::
better hurry up, we just regained some sanity, but we'll quickly lose it and descend back into madness if we don't get a new chapter soon

[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 23 Cthulhu_rising_by_somniturne1

by OneMoreDaySK Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:30 pm

@somber
A little too late for madness, don'tcha think? [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 23 702243357

We crazies can wait a little longer. Besides, just one more month before S3 breaks out and all the streams break with the flood of Bronies.
Also, avatar plz? It's pretty much you, cai, and me that don't have avatars.

by Cptadder Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:04 pm

OneMoreDaySK wrote:
Also, avatar plz? It's pretty much you, cai, and me that don't have avatars.

Hey Cai, Somber and OneMore day get avatars!

by Ketchup Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:13 pm

Somber wrote:::Creeps in... looks around... eyes widen in shock... creeps back out again and writes before everyone goes bonkers...::

Noo... what have I done...

by Ketchup Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:17 pm

WavemasterRyx wrote:Well, hopefully this is satisfactory. If anyone needs me, I'll be back in my pod trying not to hallucinate handprints appearing in my couch.

Spoiler:
http://wavemasterryx.tumblr.com/post/32799024893

I think that has to be the most adorable picture you've ever drawn.

by IncoherentOrange Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:42 pm

Now, going back a ways, I'm actually a little bit concerned with how much sex and violence I have--perhaps falsely--come to believe to be in this story, because that comes up a lot here. But people I have known or have grown to know say that this is a good story, and since I have nothing to go by but this discussion thread and the word of my brother, I can't make a clear decision on whether I want to read it in its massive length, or if I don't, because I'm uncomfortable with it. Pssh, I'm rediculous and lacking so much of the full picture. Take this not as an attack.

This decision will wait until I actually read some of this monstrosity anyway. Oh, and until I've finished off the other, significantly-smaller monstrosity that spawned it. (Which I have indeed been enjoying.) After all, I'm quite much like my brother, and my reactions may mirror his quite well. Perhaps I should not have come here in the first place. On the other hand, I have met some pretty interesting people here. I shall see.

by nebulous Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:31 pm

@Sindri: I read the Feminism Today page, and the movement it described doesn't match the ideology of the self-identified feminists whose writing I've read, and I don't think most of what the page described reflects feminism in general, but rather a small subset. I'd guess that many feminists wouldn't say that anti-male sexists were feminists at all--try the Google definitions page for feminist, for example, and most of the serious definitions are about equality. Almost all feminist women, I think, do not think that men are inherently inferior to women or should have fewer rights. I get that impression first from my experience reading feminist blog posts and comments and second from thinking that an "equal rights for the sexes!" battlecry would gather many more genuine followers than any "overturn the system so we can mistreat men!" ideology that the equal rights thing could be ostensibly hiding. Yes that evidence isn't much, but in my mind it's enough to outweigh a handful of quotes from what could easily be fringe elements.

Another objection Feminism Today brings up is that men have problems too, and people shouldn't focus exclusively on helping women. Of course that's true, but I don't think it's a failure of feminism, any more than not giving equal time to addressing racism is a failure of the gay rights movement. The equal-rights brand of feminists want men to have good quality of life as much as women, and they're often especially interested or involved in fighting anti-female sexism. There isn't a contradiction. Besides, I've read some feminist content about how anti-female sexism ends up in some ways hurting men specifically, usually along with the phrase "patriarchy hurts men too", e.g. societal norms of how men are supposed to be the strong ones so they shouldn't express emotion much or how men are supposed to be the breadwinners so a man wanting to be a stay-at-home parent is abhorrent. So there is concern about how men are being negatively affected that comes from the feminist focus on anti-female sexism.

As for jobs, while some feminist statisticians apparently doctored their findings to make a point, the article misses that women tending to end up working in lower-paying jobs is part of what feminists are protesting.

And as for being anti-family, that doesn't match the pro-family, inclusive attitudes of the feminists I've observed. They're fine with someone wanting to stay single or involved or married, childless or a parent, whatever they find fulfilling.

So the type of feminism I like is an equal rights, avoiding pushing expectations on people based on their gender, both women and men are ideally free and empowered sort of feminism. Not a men are monstrous scum, families are evil, fringe hate feminism that can only debatably be referred to as feminism.

by IncoherentOrange Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:42 pm

I think they should really be called equalists. Feminist is kind of an odd term for one who wants equality.

@Swicked Thank you for the clarification. I forgot to mention that this perception has mostly come from more recent chapters, and talk of that was thrown around quite a lot in recent weeks. Violence is hardly a problem for me unless used gratuitously. (As in, 'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!' gratuitous, on the author's part. I've seen it before in a Digimon crossover. It actually quite much disagreed with me.)

by Caoimhe Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:40 pm

There's sex and violence, but it's not excessive enough that it takes away from the story. Any use of sex and violence is plot oriented and managed well. This ain't Anywhere But Here (to fill my quota of mentioning how much I loathe Anywhere But Here this week).

Cptadder wrote:
OneMoreDaySK wrote:
Also, avatar plz? It's pretty much you, cai, and me that don't have avatars.

Hey Cai, Somber and OneMore day get avatars!

Urgh, I know I need something but I have no idea what. Still don't have an OC yet. :(

by O. Hinds Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:58 pm

IncoherentOrange wrote:I think they should really be called equalists. Feminist is kind of an odd term for one who wants equality.

@Swicked Thank you for the clarification. I forgot to mention that this perception has mostly come from more recent chapters, and talk of that was thrown around quite a lot in recent weeks. Violence is hardly a problem for me unless used gratuitously. (As in, 'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!' gratuitous, on the author's part. I've seen it before in a Digimon crossover. It actually quite much disagreed with me.)

One minor warning: the first chapter, being in part the 99 status quo, might give you heightened expectations of the sex content.

by O. Hinds Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:00 pm

Caoimhe wrote:There's sex and violence, but it's not excessive enough that it takes away from the story. Any use of sex and violence is plot oriented and managed well. This ain't Anywhere But Here (to fill my quota of mentioning how much I loathe Anywhere But Here this week).

Cptadder wrote:
OneMoreDaySK wrote:
Also, avatar plz? It's pretty much you, cai, and me that don't have avatars.

Hey Cai, Somber and OneMore day get avatars!

Urgh, I know I need something but I have no idea what. Still don't have an OC yet. :(

Well, as a journalist, who would you rather work for? The people who don't even have to make things up when propaganda is proposed, or the people perpetually pressed under the hooves of the Ministry of Image?

by WovenTales Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:02 pm

IncoherentOrange wrote:Now, going back a ways, I'm actually a little bit concerned with how much sex and violence I have--perhaps falsely--come to believe to be in this story, because that comes up a lot here. But people I have known or have grown to know say that this is a good story, and since I have nothing to go by but this discussion thread and the word of my brother, I can't make a clear decision on whether I want to read it in its massive length, or if I don't, because I'm uncomfortable with it. Pssh, I'm rediculous and lacking so much of the full picture. Take this not as an attack.

This decision will wait until I actually read some of this monstrosity anyway. Oh, and until I've finished off the other, significantly-smaller monstrosity that spawned it. (Which I have indeed been enjoying.) After all, I'm quite much like my brother, and my reactions may mirror his quite well. Perhaps I should not have come here in the first place. On the other hand, I have met some pretty interesting people here. I shall see.

As swicked said, both are certainly present, but neither is gratuitous. The sex scenes (though more common in the recent chapters) are not the focus of the story, and nowhere near clop—IIRC, most of them, excepting ones that are plot-relevant or include Stig, are more or less glossed over. The violence is most definitely not hidden, but even the bloodiest scenes that would be approaching gorn in most other stories are handled in a way that doesn't glorify it, and so they feel like a part of the story, not something needlessly tacked on to disgust. I'd say give it a try; if you've read the original Fo:E the beginning won't be too great of a jump (if you haven't, you should). PH follows a gradual increase in its level of "dark"; as long as you don't skip chapters (except the marked section of 33 if you feel uncomfortable), it won't suddenly plunge you into anything too much more violent than what you already read. (Sorry for that terrible explanation!)

On another note, was the failed attempt to rescue the town of slaves led by Littlepip or Blackjack? It feels long enough ago (and despite how it ended, light enough) that it could be from Fo:E, but the party seems like it should be PH. Has it really gotten dark enough that that feels light?

@most memorable/moving moments about 10 pages ago: PLAY has to be pretty close to the top of the list. The aftermath of 33 as well—the entire scene from sailing off to the end of the chapter is amazing. PH is certainly a great story and there are quite a few scenes since then that I love, but I still think it might have been nice to just let Blackjack's legend end there, and continue with the rest of the group trying to carry on her legacy. Maybe not as exciting, but more...something. "Painful" doesn't sound positive enough, and "moving" is slightly too weak. "Hush Now, Quiet Now" never quite stuck with me for some reason; the song worked great in that scene, but I only associate it with the story if I'm trying to, and the image it gives isn't quite as strong as some others.

Spoiler for Murky:

by IncoherentOrange Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:08 pm

It's quite rare to see violence and sex used well in fanfic. Often it simply does not fit, is unnecessary, or is invoked for 'coolness' (in the former case. That and lack of combat balancing, which is a pet peeve of mine, that can ruin immersion for me. I even notice this in Fo:E. I mean, seriously Littlepip, you're far too badass for some Stable filly). I just realized how bad a lot of fanfics really are compared to the good ones. If you want a look, check out the Train Wreck Explorers group on FiMFiction. It was actually started because of an Fo:E spin-off (not a very good one), and strives to rid the site of all bad fictions and teach their writers to be better ones. They have a lot to do.

@99 situation: I know of that particular Stable's condition at the start of the story to some extent. I think I can handle it just fine. I'm not afraid of sexual situations, or squeamish in the slightest. I just don't like reading about them. How often it comes up in conversation worried me a bit.

by Vergil Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:08 pm

swicked wrote:
Caoimhe wrote:There's sex and violence, but it's not excessive enough that it takes away from the story. Any use of sex and violence is plot oriented and managed well. This ain't Anywhere But Here (to fill my quota of mentioning how much I loathe Anywhere But Here this week).

Cptadder wrote:
OneMoreDaySK wrote:
Also, avatar plz? It's pretty much you, cai, and me that don't have avatars.

Hey Cai, Somber and OneMore day get avatars!

Urgh, I know I need something but I have no idea what. Still don't have an OC yet. :(
...most people's avatars aren't their OC. Mine certainly isn't.
Why not just use some fanart of your favorite PH character? There's certainly plenty of good works out there.

I am also an example of this. Mine isn't even pony related.

by Caoimhe Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:22 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Well, as a journalist, who would you rather work for? The people who don't even have to make things up when propaganda is proposed, or the people perpetually pressed under the hooves of the Ministry of Image?

An interesting moral conundrum, that is. I wish I could say. MoI probably has great benefits, being a government job. Hopefully dental AND vision!

swicked wrote:
...most people's avatars aren't their OC. Mine certainly isn't.
Why not just use some fanart of your favorite PH character? There's certainly plenty of good works out there.

Oh, indeed, but I would prefer something original. We'll see. Hmmm...

by Icy Shake Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:25 pm

nebulous wrote:@Sindri: I read the Feminism Today page, and the movement it described doesn't match the ideology of the self-identified feminists whose writing I've read, and I don't think most of what the page described reflects feminism in general, but rather a small subset. I'd guess that many feminists wouldn't say that anti-male sexists were feminists at all--try the Google definitions page for feminist, for example, and most of the serious definitions are about equality. Almost all feminist women, I think, do not think that men are inherently inferior to women or should have fewer rights. I get that impression first from my experience reading feminist blog posts and comments and second from thinking that an "equal rights for the sexes!" battlecry would gather many more genuine followers than any "overturn the system so we can mistreat men!" ideology that the equal rights thing could be ostensibly hiding. Yes that evidence isn't much, but in my mind it's enough to outweigh a handful of quotes from what could easily be fringe elements.

Another objection Feminism Today brings up is that men have problems too, and people shouldn't focus exclusively on helping women. Of course that's true, but I don't think it's a failure of feminism, any more than not giving equal time to addressing racism is a failure of the gay rights movement. The equal-rights brand of feminists want men to have good quality of life as much as women, and they're often especially interested or involved in fighting anti-female sexism. There isn't a contradiction. Besides, I've read some feminist content about how anti-female sexism ends up in some ways hurting men specifically, usually along with the phrase "patriarchy hurts men too", e.g. societal norms of how men are supposed to be the strong ones so they shouldn't express emotion much or how men are supposed to be the breadwinners so a man wanting to be a stay-at-home parent is abhorrent. So there is concern about how men are being negatively affected that comes from the feminist focus on anti-female sexism.

As for jobs, while some feminist statisticians apparently doctored their findings to make a point, the article misses that women tending to end up working in lower-paying jobs is part of what feminists are protesting.

And as for being anti-family, that doesn't match the pro-family, inclusive attitudes of the feminists I've observed. They're fine with someone wanting to stay single or involved or married, childless or a parent, whatever they find fulfilling.

So the type of feminism I like is an equal rights, avoiding pushing expectations on people based on their gender, both women and men are ideally free and empowered sort of feminism. Not a men are monstrous scum, families are evil, fringe hate feminism that can only debatably be referred to as feminism.

I think you've done a good job of summarizing the "real"/perceived feminist separation. I'll just add that in any movement of considerable size there will be some crazies. There's nothing wrong with that, considering the fallen world we inhabit, but it does mean that one must be wary of forming overhasty opinions of large groups; radicals and kooks make for better press/radio/television than moderate incrementalists, so one's exposure will be disproportionately to the former. This is aggravated by political tribalism where within a group opposing factions are seen or presented not merely as people who disagree, but who are seeking to harm the members of the group.

On that note, I'll just put this here for relevance.

Long Comic courtesy of harkavagrant.com:

On a similar note, I remember someone bringing up a few pages back that [s]he felt that (like feminism) unions have, for the last few decades, been mostly counterproductive. If [s]he could elaborate, I'd be much obliged.

swicked wrote:A while back there was a time early on where she kept calling blood "paint" for some reason. I never really understood that bit...

I could be wrong on this, but I mainly remember that being in Play, where for a while she thought the ~~paint~~blood was ~~blood~~paint.

@IO, re frequency of sex conversations: Please bear in mind that this may be due in part to the disproportionate contributions of Kipper and Kattlarv (among others); even ignoring this, just remember the general breadth of topic-space covered in this thread, and how quickly discussions move--oftentimes people like talking about sex, and that means we'll touch on it even when PH doesn't.

by O. Hinds Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:26 pm

Caoimhe wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
Well, as a journalist, who would you rather work for? The people who don't even have to make things up when propaganda is proposed, or the people perpetually pressed under the hooves of the Ministry of Image?

An interesting moral conundrum, that is. I wish I could say. MoI probably has great benefits, being a government job. Hopefully dental AND vision!

Not just working in Equestrian media but actually directly for the MoI? ...Well, I guess you could do that, and it probably does have good benefits (Element of Generosity and all that), but...

by Caoimhe Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:30 pm

Honestly if I had to choose something in that universe, I'd probably be a freelance writer or poet, or help as a source with the Wasteland Survival Guide. Any community, no matter how bleak, disestablished or corrupt needs the written word for entertainment or otherwise.

Actually, fuck it, I'd be a bartender, musician and general beatnick artist in FoEniverse. :P

by Stringtheory Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:37 pm

Vergil wrote:
swicked wrote:
Caoimhe wrote:There's sex and violence, but it's not excessive enough that it takes away from the story. Any use of sex and violence is plot oriented and managed well. This ain't Anywhere But Here (to fill my quota of mentioning how much I loathe Anywhere But Here this week).

Cptadder wrote:
OneMoreDaySK wrote:
Also, avatar plz? It's pretty much you, cai, and me that don't have avatars.

Hey Cai, Somber and OneMore day get avatars!

Urgh, I know I need something but I have no idea what. Still don't have an OC yet. :(
...most people's avatars aren't their OC. Mine certainly isn't.
Why not just use some fanart of your favorite PH character? There's certainly plenty of good works out there.

I am also an example of this. Mine isn't even pony related.

mine's just my standard avatar, which I use everywhere, and I got it from googling 'string theory'

by Vergil Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:52 pm

I think your server exploded Cptadder. Haven't been able to reconnect for a little while now.

by Ironmonger Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:56 pm

Vergil wrote:I think your server exploded Cptadder. Haven't been able to reconnect for a little while now.

Murder or homicide, you decide. Spike

Also this reminded me of crafting in Fallout.
[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 23 215211005_obygi-L-2

by Vergil Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:56 pm

Oh, there we go its showing as up again.

by Kippershy Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:05 pm

swicked wrote:Random question:
Was the ministry of image, or a ministry of image, ever described as having no windows, like the ministry of truth (1984)?
I want to say it was, but I can't remember if it was in PH, FoE or MN7...

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's windows all over it - sorry.

by Ironmonger Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:11 pm

Kippershy wrote:
swicked wrote:Random question:
Was the ministry of image, or a ministry of image, ever described as having no windows, like the ministry of truth (1984)?
I want to say it was, but I can't remember if it was in PH, FoE or MN7...

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's windows all over it - sorry.

Enough of my silliness since I know you tire of it. I have a legitimate question, why do a lot of people seem to hate FoE fics?

by Caoimhe Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:19 pm

Ironmonger wrote:
Kippershy wrote:
swicked wrote:Random question:
Was the ministry of image, or a ministry of image, ever described as having no windows, like the ministry of truth (1984)?
I want to say it was, but I can't remember if it was in PH, FoE or MN7...

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's windows all over it - sorry.

Enough of my silliness since I know you tire of it. I have a legitimate question, why do a lot of people seem to hate FoE fics?

Because it's dark, violent and has sometimes stuff of a sexual nature... and it's based off of a cartoon for 6 year olds girls.

I felt weird about it at first, but grew to appreciate the literary merit of a fun adventure story, but I can see how some people could be turned off considering the darkest the source material gets is light scariness. Some people cry betrayal at anything but happy go lucky.

by Kippershy Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:23 pm

swicked wrote:
Kippershy wrote:
swicked wrote:Random question:
Was the ministry of image, or a ministry of image, ever described as having no windows, like the ministry of truth (1984)?
I want to say it was, but I can't remember if it was in PH, FoE or MN7...

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's windows all over it - sorry.
Er...
no need to apologize, I was asking because I was confused, not because I
was hoping it looked like the ministry of truth or something
o_O

exactly why I'm sorry.
I burnt your hopes to the ground and trampled the ashes to make sure you'll never hope again.

Your hopes and dreams... below:
[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 23 Building_on_fire

[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 23 Building_on_fire

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