[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

O. Hinds wrote:And it probably wouldn't be that difficult to create a teleportation-disruption system; we know that Hightower has one, after all, so they definitely exist.

Yeah, but it's a field of magic that they don't have access to; it'd be like a metallurgist or a watchmaker setting up an ECM system. Teleportation doesn't seem to be effected by climate conditions, or intervening matter, or anything else that they could use as a workaround; the only ways to prevent teleportation that we've ever heard of are secrecy, extreme distance, or an enchantment set up by people who intimately understand the mechanics of teleportation, which was specialized enough that it didn't even catch batpony shadow-stepping. Anyone with the ability to set up a system like that would almost by necessity have the ability to teleport themself, and there's never been any indication that any zebra can do that.

I'm probably alone in this, but claiming that their shamans could block an alicorn is a lot more of a stretch in my mind than the legate throwing around lightning bolts and ordering the earth and air to do his bidding.

Overthepacific wrote:I dont quite know about them actually lasting through the sheer numbers of the Brood. Even with the tank, and Rampage. But it is a fight I'd certainly like to see.

None of the zebras in the audience had anything bigger than a .50 cal rifle. They're on a big open plain. Deus is a regenerating supertank with multiple heavy machine guns. It's not a war of attrition anymore, it's a lawnmower.


And the spark grenades? A modern tank can get hit by lightning without slowing down. And Deus's new chassis isn't a normal tank, designed to be built economically, in great numbers, and supported by infantry. Between the weight of the armor, the wide selection and coverage of armament, and high-level repair talisman it was clearly designed to dominate a battlefield, alone if need be. The ability to eat scrap metal for use as raw materials means that it was furthermore designed to operate without support crew or resupply for multiple battles, probably over the course of extended periods of time. And it doesn't have an engine and fuel tank, it has a bloody miniaturized reactor inside. Unless the engineers were extremely drunk when they drew this up, and it was a bleeding edge prototype that never saw deployment, it would not have such a simple and easily accounted for weakness. Especially since 'spark grenade' isn't some esoteric supertech, or some brilliant but insane tactic used by a big damn hero once and forgotten about, it's the first reaction of any properly equipped squad to robotic enemies. Skimping on the EMP shielding would be stupider than leaving the armor plating off.

Sindri wrote:

Overthepacific wrote:I dont quite know about them actually lasting through the sheer numbers of the Brood. Even with the tank, and Rampage. But it is a fight I'd certainly like to see.

None of the zebras in the audience had anything bigger than a .50 cal rifle. They're on a big open plain. Deus is a regenerating supertank with multiple heavy machine guns. It's not a war of attrition anymore, it's a lawnmower.

It's still a fight I'd really need to see before I could make an assumption like that. There's the power of a supertank, and then there's a power of numbers. It's war, not much is actually predictable.

Sindri wrote:And the spark grenades? A modern tank can get hit by lightning without slowing down. And Deus's new chassis isn't a normal tank, designed to be built economically, in great numbers, and supported by infantry. Between the weight of the armor, the wide selection and coverage of armament, and high-level repair talisman it was clearly designed to dominate a battlefield, alone if need be. The ability to eat scrap metal for use as raw materials means that it was furthermore designed to operate without support crew or resupply for multiple battles, probably over the course of extended periods of time. And it doesn't have an engine and fuel tank, it has a bloody miniaturized reactor inside. Unless the engineers were extremely drunk when they drew this up, and it was a bleeding edge prototype that never saw deployment, it would not have such a simple and easily accounted for weakness. Especially since 'spark grenade' isn't some esoteric supertech, or some brilliant but insane tactic used by a big damn hero once and forgotten about, it's the first reaction of any properly equipped squad to robotic enemies. Skimping on the EMP shielding would be stupider than leaving the armor plating off.

I am really not sure what kind of technology something like that would entail, but wouldnt repeated EMPs wear it down to the point of it possibly failing, much the same way as repeated damaging explosions would tear into the armor? Even in the Fallout games, one spark grenade was usually never enough to down something as powerful as a sentry bot, so I could assume that they were going to use as many as necessary until failure occured, and even with the repair apparatus, it could buy them enough time to do some serious damage while the systems were temporarily down.

But it never happened so I'm not sure if this was actually an empty threat by them or not. It's yet to be seen what kind of threat they could really pose.

@Spark Grenades
Do we have a technical explanation for how these work yet, btw? Because, not bring up magic again, but, well, they disrupt spell matrices, right? So, methods of shielding could be very different, and potentially less effective than Faraday cages are versus electricity/EMPs. There might not be a one-size fits-all defense. I feel like this has come up before, but I forget what (if any) consensus was reached.

WovenTales wrote:On a slightly related note, does anyone have a copy of the original version downloaded (preferably as HTML)? I forgot to save it before the changes went live, and do actually want to have a reference for the old fight, if I ever need it at some point.

http://ppp-webdesign.de/FoePHch54_old.html

Thats the version I downloaded when the old chapter 54 went live. The spelling/grammar edits that were made after the release are missing.

Sindri wrote:

O. Hinds wrote:And it probably wouldn't be that difficult to create a teleportation-disruption system; we know that Hightower has one, after all, so they definitely exist.

Big paragraph.

Reverse your thinking: The Zebras would need to develop countermeasures to teleportation during the war, therefore they did. Without countermeasures, even if only half a dozen ponies could teleport effectively those few would be able to bypass all Zebra defenses and practically end the war themselves. And unless Zebras developed their own teleportation, then Equestria wouldn't need anything beyond the old spells from hundreds of years ago or whatever else used to keep high-powered unicorn criminals in check. For all we know, Zebra-land has as much anti-teleportation stuff as Equestria has Rad-Away.

Cptadder wrote:

Somber wrote:HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!!!
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!!!

Hah hah ....ooh god kill me

Sindri wrote:I'm probably alone in this, but claiming that their shamans could block an alicorn is a lot more of a stretch in my mind than the legate throwing around lightning bolts and ordering the earth and air to do his bidding.

Well, we do know that zebra are unaffected by pony telepathy... I don't remember if they were ever established as having resistance or immunity to all types of pony magic, but if they did have magic resistance, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch for them to be able to develop countermeasures for spells that wouldn't affect them directly.
Teleportation countermeasures are actually an extremely practical thing, if you consider the potential for teleporting a balefire bomb straight into a zebra city. Kinda like with the Wraith in Stargate Atlantis.
I am sorry as well that the new version didn't sit well with you, Sindri...

O. Hinds wrote:"Please don't snuggle the cake, though" :)

Well,
every filly has slightly different ballistic properties, you know, so
it's hard to predict how a bullet's trajectory will be altered by going
through one.

1) *smiles back*
2) That... that's horrible, Hinds. Horrible but funny...

swicked wrote:...by the way, what other ponies could use teleport? I don't remember anyone other than Twilight ever doing it.
Is it a semi-commonplace spell in the FoE universe?

Well there's no concrete examples of any ponies aside from Twilight being able to use it, well Twilight and Nightmare Moon. In the end though, it is just a spell, maybe a complicated one to learn, maybe incredibly taxing for a not so magic pony oh, like when Rarity used it! But yeah, seeing as it wasn't even her special talent, I'm sure other ponies would be capable of teleporting.

Also, woah, that pic's really coming along well! Very nice, Wavey.

SilentCarto wrote:

O. Hinds wrote:@Icy Shake:
Rampage is a chem, yes, but thank you for the other error spotting (not counting the she/I thing, as you've realized that it isn't a mistake).

I think you're mistaken. Rage is the FOE version of Psycho, not Rampage, and Slasher is Stampede. At any rate, if you did mean to say Rampage and you are referring to a chem, it should be clarified by saying, "...they moved with the deadly swiftness and strength of somepony high on Rampage", or "the deadly swiftness and strength granted by a dose of Rampage", or something similar.

...Yeah, I think you're right. Sorry about that! It's been changed to Stampede.

WovenTales wrote:One thing I noticed in AGurdel's summation of changes and then confirmed in the document is that there might have been a small number update that shouldn't actually have been changed.

I could barely aim through my tears. I just had to take one more life, and then I’d be done. The Princess’s, then my own.

If his copy of the original was correct, that used to be "two more lives," which makes a lot more sense with the two it lists.

Ah, thank you.

So I gave up on trying to read several pages of comments and just jumped to the revised chapter 54. I think I like it better. The Legate being more mundane and skilled as well as clever enough to avoid a free-for-all with a tank and regenerating Reaper does help compare him to Lanius. He actually is exploiting Blackjack's concern for her mortal, unarmored friends to keep the others out of the fight.

As for the nitpicks some have, I guess this wouldn't be a discussion thread if I wasn't allowed to give my own two cents. I think Vitiosus' claim of having teleportation disrupting shamans and spark grenades is partly a bluff. He probably has them, to some extent, but even if they don't work with a full 100% effectiveness, Lacunae and Blackjack don't have to know that. They just have to see he's not lying and that a hundred zebras versus soft targets like Scotch or Boo will end tragically. Even if Deus is made of steel and the others hide in him, he can still be damaged as proven by Blackjack, and if they can blow a hole inside, they will kill Deus and his passengers. I don't believe Blackjack would have risked that.

As for Lancer being spared at Blackjack's request, I don't really know what Vitiosus' thoughts on that are, but perhaps he felt pressured to kill his son to save his honour in the eyes of his living troops. Blackjack's intersection was just barely enough of a distraction for the Legate to argue with his troops that the Maiden of the Stars distracted him. Lancer might still decide/be encouraged to take his own life later to escape being cursed and remove the stain on his father's reputation.

Sindri wrote:

O. Hinds wrote:And it probably wouldn't be that difficult to create a teleportation-disruption system; we know that Hightower has one, after all, so they definitely exist.

Yeah, but it's a field of magic that they don't have access to; it'd be like a metallurgist or a watchmaker setting up an ECM system. Teleportation doesn't seem to be effected by climate conditions, or intervening matter, or anything else that they could use as a workaround; the only ways to prevent teleportation that we've ever heard of are secrecy, extreme distance, or an enchantment set up by people who intimately understand the mechanics of teleportation, which was specialized enough that it didn't even catch batpony shadow-stepping. Anyone with the ability to set up a system like that would almost by necessity have the ability to teleport themself, and there's never been any indication that any zebra can do that.

I'm probably alone in this, but claiming that their shamans could block an alicorn is a lot more of a stretch in my mind than the legate throwing around lightning bolts and ordering the earth and air to do his bidding.

It is generally much easier to jam a signal than it is to get a signal through jamming, though. The jammers just have to saturate the air with noise; the jammed have to find some clever way to get through it or use such a powerful signal that the jamming is overwhelmed. And, remember, Lacunae isn't using the full power of Unity, even if it could be used like that; she's cut off from it.

Derpmind wrote:

Sindri wrote:

O. Hinds wrote:And it probably wouldn't be that difficult to create a teleportation-disruption system; we know that Hightower has one, after all, so they definitely exist.

Big paragraph.

Reverse your thinking: The Zebras would need to develop countermeasures to teleportation during the war, therefore they did. Without countermeasures, even if only half a dozen ponies could teleport effectively those few would be able to bypass all Zebra defenses and practically end the war themselves. And unless Zebras developed their own teleportation, then Equestria wouldn't need anything beyond the old spells from hundreds of years ago or whatever else used to keep high-powered unicorn criminals in check. For all we know, Zebra-land has as much anti-teleportation stuff as Equestria has Rad-Away.

Also this.

Sindri wrote:And the spark grenades? A modern tank can get hit by lightning without slowing down. And Deus's new chassis isn't a normal tank, designed to be built economically, in great numbers, and supported by infantry. Between the weight of the armor, the wide selection and coverage of armament, and high-level repair talisman it was clearly designed to dominate a battlefield, alone if need be. The ability to eat scrap metal for use as raw materials means that it was furthermore designed to operate without support crew or resupply for multiple battles, probably over the course of extended periods of time. And it doesn't have an engine and fuel tank, it has a bloody miniaturized reactor inside. Unless the engineers were extremely drunk when they drew this up, and it was a bleeding edge prototype that never saw deployment, it would not have such a simple and easily accounted for weakness. Especially since 'spark grenade' isn't some esoteric supertech, or some brilliant but insane tactic used by a big damn hero once and forgotten about, it's the first reaction of any properly equipped squad to robotic enemies. Skimping on the EMP shielding would be stupider than leaving the armor plating off.

I don't know how the teams planned to make it work. I expect that they had something clever figured out, since, again, no shielding is perfect. Maybe it was actually just a bluff.

Somber wrote:HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!!!
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!!!

Have to hand it to ya, you had perfect timing for that post.

Why'd you remind me of that scene. Laughter may be the best medicine, but alcohol is more effective.

Okay, got to rereading the chapter. I approve of these revisions.

swicked wrote:
Also? Does not pop Lancer's eye.
That made me sadsad, despite all the gladglad.

Yeah, I wish that little bit had been kept in.

Cptadder wrote:

Somber wrote:HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!!!
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!!!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/H47ow4_Cmk0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Hah hah ....ooh god kill me

What...the fuck...

And shrooms take all the pain away.

Love the revisions, makes the Legate look less like a boss character and more like the commander that he is. It makes the situation look so much more believable without loosing it's tension.

I love the contrast between Blackjack and the Legate. Fate vs. Responsibility, Forgiveness vs Wrath and no one is sure of who is in the right.

Oh and by the way
I love how we are back to our own selves again!

Now all we need is Kattlarv coming on and discussing vaginas and all will be right with the world!

In our own twisted way of course.

tylertoon2 wrote:
Now all we need is Kattlarv coming on and discussing vaginas and all will be right with the world!

In our own twisted way of course.

Say what now?

Derpmind wrote:Reverse your thinking: The Zebras would need to develop countermeasures to teleportation during the war, therefore they did. Without countermeasures, even if only half a dozen ponies could teleport effectively those few would be able to bypass all Zebra defenses and practically end the war themselves.

Been there, and there are three problems with that train of thought. First, a unicorn can only go somewhere they've already seen. Second, energy required goes up exponentially with distance. Third, to teleport anything a unicorn needs to go there themself. So teleportation would only be a factor over short distances, to places with very weak security, and every single offensive teleport would put one of the very few ponies capable of the trick right on the front lines, disoriented, and exhausted. Almost anywhere that a teleport could be used offensively, a pegasus could do the same job better. It would certainly be a tactical factor, occasionally, but almost insignificant strategically. The only practical use for it that I could see being common enough to warrant a countermeasure is retreating your most valuable casters if their position was overrun before they were spent. And maybe retaking very familiar fortifications after they were captured.

swicked wrote:...by the way, what other ponies could use teleport? I don't remember anyone other than Twilight ever doing it.
Is it a semi-commonplace spell in the FoE universe?

Rarity was shown teleporting during a memory orb 'Pip saw, saying she learned it from Twilight. But it's certainly not an easy or common thing; even among alicorns only the purple ones can pull it off.

WavemasterRyx wrote:Well, we do know that zebra are unaffected by pony telepathy... I don't remember if they were ever established as having resistance or immunity to all types of pony magic, but if they did have magic resistance, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch for them to be able to develop countermeasures for spells that wouldn't affect them directly.

The Goddess's telepathy specifically only affects creatures similar enough to the components of Unity. She's made of ponies, so she enter the minds of ponies and only ponies. We haven't seen any other case of zebras being especially magic resistant until, well, the revised Legate.

O. Hinds wrote:It is generally much easier to jam a signal than it is to get a signal through jamming, though. The jammers just have to saturate the air with noise; the jammed have to find some clever way to get through it or use such a powerful signal that the jamming is overwhelmed. And, remember, Lacunae isn't using the full power of Unity, even if it could be used like that; she's cut off from it.

Yes, of course, but you need to know what the signal is, and you need to be capable of emitting noise in that band. To jam a radio, you need to know how a radio works and have a device that puts out a lot of radio noise. To jam a teleport, you'd need to have an understanding of teleportation that only the most dedicated of unicorns possesses.


But whatever problems I think I see, I appear to be the only one bothered by them. And people who were on the brink of leaving are telling their friends to come back. It appears that the revisions were, objectively, a huge success and I should probably just shut up abut them.

tylertoon2 wrote:
Now all we need is Kattlarv coming on and discussing vaginas and all will be right with the world!

I miss...Kim...

Oh that's right, pacific's never met her...
Now I haz a sad.

Yes, of course, but you need to know what the signal is, and you need to be capable of emitting noise in that band. To jam a radio, you need to know how a radio works and have a device that puts out a lot of radio noise. To jam a teleport, you'd need to have an understanding of teleportation that only the most dedicated of unicorns possesses.

I disagree that the only people who really understand teleportation are those who can do it. They might have a unique perspective on what using the magic is like from the inside, but that wouldn't be used for jamming it anyway.


re Kim's absence:
Aye, I do hope that she comes back soon.

AGurdel wrote:

WovenTales wrote:On a slightly related note, does anyone have a copy of the original version downloaded (preferably as HTML)? I forgot to save it before the changes went live, and do actually want to have a reference for the old fight, if I ever need it at some point.

http://ppp-webdesign.de/FoePHch54_old.html

Thats the version I downloaded when the old chapter 54 went live. The spelling/grammar edits that were made after the release are missing.

Thanks! Might not be immediately helpful for anything, but it feels nice to be able to look in there in case it ever comes up again. And just for the archive, as well.

swicked wrote:...by the way, what other ponies could use teleport? I don't remember anyone other than Twilight ever doing it.
Is it a semi-commonplace spell in the FoE universe?

I know I remember Celestia doing it at the end of Lesson Zero, but I dont think that really helps the point.

Sindri wrote:Oh that's right, pacific's never met her...
Now I haz a sad.

I am feeling very left out of the loop right now.

Sindri wrote:To jam a teleport, you'd need to have an understanding of teleportation that only the most dedicated of unicorns possesses.

We know that casting a teleportation spell is very difficult, but that doesn't mean that the mechanics of teleportation are only knowable to those can can cast it. The spell may just require exceptional focus and power behind it rather than a technical understanding of quantum physics. Lacunae's explanation of the power/distance ratio of teleportation wasn't worded in secret 7-dimensional horn-code, it was plain Equish that anypony with enough points in their intel stat could understand. Another example: Zebras may not be able to write computer code, but they can gain enough understanding of computers to know how that creating an EMP will disable a computer, or using certain specific programs in different ways (potions and fetishes) will allow computers to be hacked or loose their signal or spontaneously combust.

Overthepacific wrote:

swicked wrote:...by the way, what other ponies could use teleport? I don't remember anyone other than Twilight ever doing it.
Is it a semi-commonplace spell in the FoE universe?

I know I remember Celestia doing it at the end of Lesson Zero, but I dont think that really helps the point.

Sindri wrote:Oh that's right, pacific's never met her...
Now I haz a sad.

I am feeling very left out of the loop right now.

Ahh, don't worry you will understand when you meet her. Fun lady, if slightly obsessed with female anatomy. Had a very interesting perspective on PH.

tylertoon2 wrote:Ahh, don't worry you will understand when you meet her. Fun lady, if slightly obsessed with female anatomy. Had a very interesting perspective on PH.

And here I am having to wait for fun like this.

tylertoon2 wrote:Fun lady, if slightly obsessed with female anatomy.

And anatomy in general, and has an extensive knowledge on the biological functions of horses. And dolphins. If fact, I don't think we were supposed to bring up the subject of the dolphins ever again...

RoboRed wrote:

tylertoon2 wrote:Fun lady, if slightly obsessed with female anatomy.

And anatomy in general, and has an extensive knowledge on the biological functions of horses. And dolphins. If fact, I don't think we were supposed to bring up the subject of the dolphins ever again...

Yep. Dolphins are on the List that we're not supposed to discuss anywhere Somber might have to hear it, IIRC.

RoboRed wrote:

tylertoon2 wrote:Fun lady, if slightly obsessed with female anatomy.

And anatomy in general, and has an extensive knowledge on the biological functions of horses. And dolphins. If fact, I don't think we were supposed to bring up the subject of the dolphins ever again...

Yes. Never, ever again....

swicked wrote:Given steel rangers continued to be entirely vulnerable to them, their armor becoming cages for them after being hit by one, I thought it was nearly impossible to shield against them... with the exception of pipbucks, for whatever reason. I'm guessing Stable-tech decided to keep that little engineering secret to themselves.
The only countermeasure was to have another ranger in proximity to restart your armor ASAP.

Spark grenades do crash Pipbucks until they can be rebooted from another active spell matrix. Notably, the Ultras in the MAw crashed both Steelhooves and Littlepip at the same time so that they had to trade for a spare suit of power armor to reboot from.

swicked wrote:...by the way, what other ponies could use teleport? I don't remember anyone other than Twilight ever doing it.
Is it a semi-commonplace spell in the FoE universe?

Well, aside from Twilight, Celestia teleported out at the end of Lesson Zero. Nightmare Moon teleported using a visually different spell in the pilot, but Luna used something that looked and sounded like Twilight's teleportation to summon Starswirl's notebook in The Crystal Empire. And, notably, Trixie teleported with the help of the Alicorn Amulet just before she accepted the second Magic Duel. So yes, "semi-commonplace" would probably be a good description -- only available to particularly powerful unicorns, but well-known to those who have enough juice to pull it off.