Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by Cptadder Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:16 pm

Kippershy wrote:

...Now this is where Somber comes along, calls me a twat and tells me that despite my best efforts, I'm entirely wrong and I should never speak again lest he tells all his readers that one of them scares him... again.

No I'll buy your theory, it makes sense from a Granpda Coldblood(ed) point of view. Goldenblood has always struck me as a inherent bastard who views everyone including himself as a tool. The simple fact he considered offing Celestia at any point indicates to me his acceptance of the ends justify the means. And I could see him (Once again making him a monster) using Flutters for further his own ends. He honored her in his own way but it was not total. It was not a partnership, at best Fluttershy was Goldenblood's very junior partner to be looked after not consulted with.

He was heart broken when he lost her not just because, even he felt sorry for breaking Fluttershy's heart, but because it also robbed him of his Luna cover. The only question was how much of a cover it was, was Goldy getting it on behind the scenes or was Luna just hankering for a nice stallion up until the Littlehorn robbed him of his heath.

*Edit I for one hope the only thing at the center of the Eater's Web is hate and anger and hunger, no need to guest star Luna. Having her die once is enough for me. Adding Luna would detract from the Lovecraftian thing out of reality nature of the Eater of Souls. It needs no avatar only the ability to drive ponies mad just by understanding it.

by Kippershy Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:22 pm

Vergil wrote:
Kippershy wrote:Also, while I'm on the topic, the reason Goldenblood wasn't good enough for Fluttershy was this:

That one. You're talking about Goldenblood's point of view, not Fluttershy's. So shouldn't that be the reason she wasn't good enough for him?

No because he repeatedly said so himself. "I'm not good enough for her."

by Vergil Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:29 pm

Kippershy wrote:
Vergil wrote:
Kippershy wrote:Also, while I'm on the topic, the reason Goldenblood wasn't good enough for Fluttershy was this:

That one. You're talking about Goldenblood's point of view, not Fluttershy's. So shouldn't that be the reason she wasn't good enough for him?

No because he repeatedly said so himself. "I'm not good enough for her."

Well I definitely don't remember that. My bad.

by Kippershy Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:33 pm

Cptadder wrote:
Kippershy wrote:

...Now this is where Somber comes along, calls me a twat and tells me that despite my best efforts, I'm entirely wrong and I should never speak again lest he tells all his readers that one of them scares him... again.
No I'll buy your theory, it makes sense from a Granpda Coldblood(ed) point of view. Goldenblood has always struck me as a inherent bastard who views everyone including himself as a tool. The simple fact he considered offing Celestia at any point indicates to me his acceptance of the ends justify the means. And I could see him (Once again making him a monster) using Flutters for further his own ends. He honored her in his own way but it was not total. It was not a partnership, at best Fluttershy was Goldenblood's very junior partner to be looked after not consulted with.

He was heart broken when he lost her not just because, even he felt sorry for breaking Fluttershy's heart, but because it also robbed him of his Luna cover. The only question was how much of a cover it was, was Goldy getting it on behind the scenes or was Luna just hankering for a nice stallion up until the Littlehorn robbed him of his heath.

*Edit I for one hope the only thing at the center of the Eater's Web is hate and anger and hunger, no need to guest star Luna. Having her die once is enough for me. Adding Luna would detract from the Lovecraftian thing out of reality nature of the Eater of Souls. It needs no avatar only the ability to drive ponies mad just by understanding it.

Thank you, I appreciate that you see my logic and don't think I'm being stupid.
There's one part of your post that intrigued me more than the rest though, for two different reasons.

Cptadder wrote:*Edit I for one hope the only thing at the center
of the Eater's Web is hate and anger and hunger, no need to guest star
Luna. Having her die once is enough for me. Adding Luna would detract
from the Lovecraftian thing out of reality nature of the Eater of Souls.
It needs no avatar only the ability to drive ponies mad just by
understanding it.

On one hand, the very fact you've had to deal Luna's death the one time and don't want to face the idea of it being her, especially like this, for the second time is just appealing to the way Somber writes and thinks about these things. He goes for a lot of things that do this, even if he does avoid flamers for the fact he has personal history with fire related death in the real world.

So in that sense, making you deal with Luna being the avatar of the EoS would be devastating to a lot of people... and right up his alley because of that.

On the other hand however, you make a very good point.
If there IS nothing but the eater itself / what it represents, then... well... that's very interesting because like you say, it's a very Lovecraftian thing which reminds me of Call of Cthulhu.

Still, my personal theory stands with Luna for another reason I forgot in the recap:

The eater gained massive power after Luna died. We don't know exactly when, but we do know that it must've been after the war at some point seeing as enervation was never an issue or even known of beforehand.
Yes, the massive influx of souls that came with the apocalypse could've powered up the eater and been the reason, but for me, that would definitely have been paired alongside having caught Luna to expand the reach even further.

If Luna IS being tortured like BJ got a glimpse of herself, constantly, no less, then I'm pretty sure her scream would be in Canterlot mode and constant enough to make the enervation effect deadly.

but yes, you could be right all the same and it could be the sheer nothing but hate, pain and darkness that made it so horrifying for BJ.

by Ketchup Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:33 pm

Kippershy wrote:Oh come on, it's been obvious for ages. Why on earth else would he call out her name while doing it with Flutters? Why else would he be so protective of and loyal to Luna?
Why else would she have him executed for betraying her trust, rather than simply imprisoned like anyone else??

Firstly, I hate it when someone says something like that is obvious. It just makes everyone who didn't get it feel moronic. Saying "Blackjack shoots things" as obvious makes sense, because anyone can clearly see it and it is even stated in the story a multitude of times. Once, someone drew a picture of Fo:E's main characters, and there was a green ghost beside Steelhooves. Many people didn't know who it was, and someone called them all morons because he got it immediately as Applesnack. Just... urg.

Anyhow, I just remember it being somepony's name, not a princess in particular. I know that is what broke what Flutters and Goldy had anyway, though, regardless of the royal status of that somepony. I did notice romantic tension between Goldy and Luna, though.

The entity in the middle of the EoS must be someone Blackjack would recognize, this would include Luna. Or Rarity, who was experimenting with necromancy.

by Kippershy Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:40 pm

ketchup504 wrote:
Kippershy wrote:Oh come on, it's been obvious for ages. Why on earth else would he call out her name while doing it with Flutters? Why else would he be so protective of and loyal to Luna?
Why else would she have him executed for betraying her trust, rather than simply imprisoned like anyone else??
Firstly, I hate it when someone says something like that is obvious. It just makes everyone who didn't get it feel moronic. Saying "Blackjack shoots things" as obvious makes sense, because anyone can clearly see it and it is even stated in the story a multitude of times. Once, someone drew a picture of Fo:E's main characters, and there was a green ghost beside Steelhooves. Many people didn't know who it was, and someone called them all morons because he got it immediately as Applesnack. Just... urg.

Anyhow, I just remember it being somepony's name, not a princess in particular. I know that is what broke what Flutters and Goldy had anyway, though, regardless of the royal status of that somepony. I did notice romantic tension between Goldy and Luna, though.

The entity in the middle of the EoS must be someone Blackjack would recognize, this would include Luna. Or Rarity, who was experimenting with necromancy.

Yet another reason why it could only have been somepony important which I didn't think to note down on my recap of why I thought so.
If it is a pony, which I'm sure it is, it has to be somepony that BJ recognises, like you say.

Somepony important enough to have been not only known by the EoS but somepony also important enough that Blackjack would know of them and be horrified to see them at the core of it all.

Somepony like Luna.
Even with Rarity being the element of generosity, I don't think that's enough.

by Cptadder Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:56 pm

Kippershy wrote:
On one hand, the very fact you've had to deal Luna's death the one time and don't want to face the idea of it being her, especially like this, for the second time is just appealing to the way Somber writes and thinks about these things. He goes for a lot of things that do this, even if he does avoid flamers for the fact he has personal history with fire related death in the real world.

So in that sense, making you deal with Luna being the avatar of the EoS would be devastating to a lot of people... and right up his alley because of that.

I don't mind Luna dying a second time, but the way she died the first time was in Celestia's hooves by succumbing to the Littlehorn agent and nothing about that death strikes me as Eater material. The EoS is a very Hoofington localized phenomenon after all. Close physical proximity is necessary for deaths to generate enervation. And if the Eater could suck down the souls of just anyone who died your talking about millions dead during the war and millions dead after. What is Luna next to the hundreds of millions dead from balefire, and all the harbingers of societal collapse like infection, malnutrition, poor sanitation and exposure? If I accept the idea that the Eater can for lack of a better word, eat anyone handy then yes we must also concede the fact that everyone who died is vulnerable.

See your next quote for more

Kippershy wrote:
On the other hand however, you make a very good point.
If there IS nothing but the eater itself / what it represents, then... well... that's very interesting because like you say, it's a very Lovecraftian thing which reminds me of Call of Cthulhu.
Still, my personal theory stands with Luna for another reason I forgot in the recap:

The eater gained massive power after Luna died. We don't know exactly when, but we do know that it must've been after the war at some point seeing as enervation was never an issue or even known of beforehand.
Yes, the massive influx of souls that came with the apocalypse could've powered up the eater and been the reason, but for me, that would definitely have been paired alongside having caught Luna to expand the reach even further.

If Luna IS being tortured like BJ got a glimpse of herself, constantly, no less, then I'm pretty sure her scream would be in Canterlot mode and constant enough to make the enervation effect deadly.

but yes, you could be right all the same and it could be the sheer nothing but hate, pain and darkness that made it so horrifying for BJ.

See my previous statement, the point that the eater received more power from one goddess pair than from the corpses of millions of pony's and zebras does not sit right with me. After all, Luna was inherently mortal, powerful to be sure but she was not a fifth dimensional being beyond all time and space. She had limits, hard physical limits and a body of flesh and bone.

The Eater is that which is not, it exists as a single note of unmaking shrieking against the very existence of all life. It hungers for that which it is not. It needs no avatar because avatars can be shouted at, fought and even triumphed over. The Eater in my mind from Sombers description is something that should not be. A profound wrongness in the world that twists reality itself by it's simple existence.

It's agents sing it's song because they are it's song, but they hear no words beyond that single harsh note of hate.

by O. Hinds Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:01 pm

C.A.R.E. stands for Communally Assured Reciprocal Existence.

Cptadder wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
Ah, no, the NCR isn't involved in the construction. It's purely EA, and at this point in time that means that the biological components of the labor force are probably going to be mostly just ponies and zebras. Might have some griffins, alicorns, hellhounds, etc., though.
Alicorns are former ponies and ponies like bottlecaps, hellhounds like technology and griffins honor the contract and they happen to be for sale. Really unless someone is at war with someone I could see two of those groups easily working on any large scale project. And Griffins? Griffins want to get payed. Some nice easy safeguarding work with some light search and rescue thrown in? (Assuming it's a bridge). That's an easy goverment contract any griffin group would be happy to take on.

Hm... You have somewhat good points there. However, hiring foreign labor takes away a lot of the point of the bridge, and a tunnel would probably just use a TBM (if not a subterrene). The hellhounds who'd be suitable are probably still busy resettling (though I suppose that they could have built up enough by this point...) and are still technically foreign.

Cptadder wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:

Given the clarifications, do you still think it's unreasonable that this could have been started before the war? I rather like the idea of the foundations being used for seaforts.
I could see it as a pre-war project started between Celestia and the former Caesar abandon at the outbreak of war with his successor. Question is foundations as seaforts during the war or after? I could see after but they are small for a proper sea fort.

I guess. It's still entirely in Zebra territory, though... it still seems a bit unlikely.

They'd have been seaforts during the war, though the Principality might have maintained the ones it held and taken the rest after. I'm not sure how large a seafort would need to be... Wouldn't an arrangement of cantilevers and floats permit construction, though?

Cptadder wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:

Hm... Well, I suppose that only the San Frantello line out of the Moojave could be restored, yeah. That would be more roundabout... but it would still keep the trade flow at least near the city. As for giving the crossing to the Miliozi to administer... I think that the Principality would probably object to that (they'd also probably object to their lands being called "the middle of nothing", but, well, they are one of the lesser powers).
Look if there's nothing within two miles of the exit points then speaking broadly it is middle of no where as far as governments are concerned. Special economic zones, free trade areas, exclusion zones, they have many names but they basically mean we are going to take your land and serve it up to foreign interests in exchange for a large bags of bits that the taxes will bring in. Why the railroad bypassed some towns while going through others is a classic example of the kind of political deal making that values people over efficiency. Heck look at Germany, that country is a poster child for local interests getting their way back when roads were being constructed (Which is why side note the autobahs were so important a Nazi symbol because the road network was a nightmare of labyrinthine setups) You can see the same thing in the America highway construction project in the 50s.

Point being, don't assume your roadway has to make perfect sense geographically and efficiency wise even if your tunnel has to.

Oh, you mean just declare the bridge/tunnel to be under Miliozi control even though the strait and surrounding land are Principality? Eh... Maybe, but... This is the Principality of Gibhalter. Giving the bridge/tunnel to the Miliozi certainly wouldn't be as bad as trying to take Gibhalter itself or anything, but they're either going to be very upset or have to be offered some significant compensation. Which I suppose could work, if I thought of something big enough... Really, though, giving the Miliozi administration over the lands along the line between the Principality and the Moojave is still big; they'd probably be satisfied.

by 222222 Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:24 pm

@Kipper: first of all, yes Goldenblood did orchestrate handing over the megaspells. Yes it was initially Fluttershy's idea, but he stopped her and approached her about it. Then when she said she would try again, he told her exactly who to contact and what to say to them. In this way, I believe he orchestrated the handing over of megaspells. About the romantic stuff though, that all seems pretty solid to me and I agree. I haven't put too much tought into who the EoS is, but I definitely rule out the mane six, and I think it's either Celestia, Luna, or CptAdders idea, which I hadn't previously thought of but seems pretty solid to me.

by Ironmonger Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:42 pm

Not to get off topic, but if someone brohoofs me can they tell me when they do or at least give me a hint? I'd like to know what I've done right so I can act accordingly in the future. Sifting through pages trying to find what got up-voted is tedious.

by OBS.GS.§S Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:33 pm

Ironmonger wrote:Not to get off topic, but if
someone brohoofs me can they tell me when they do or at least give me a
hint? I'd like to know what I've done right so I can act accordingly in
the future. Sifting through pages trying to find what got up-voted is
tedious.

I can let you know when and why I brohoof you when I do.
__________

By the way, I was wondering if you guys had all seen the combat suit idea I posted a page back, Plasticube and Erumpet both gave me some good feedback, and I am very appreciative for it, thanks you guys; But they also were the ones that made the first two posts after I posted, and after that the discussion seemed to move on to other things. I understand if everyone has seen it and decided that they didn't want to reply, but I put a lot of effort into it and I'm proud of myself for it, so I just wanted to make sure it got a fair chance before it became old news.
__________

Also, sorry Hinds that I wasn't able to provide any feedback on your bridge idea, Cptadder beat me to it and discussed everything I was going to and then some, and I didn't want be redundant by only saying half of what someone else had already said on it.

by Ironmonger Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:48 pm

I would have replied if I saw it. I'm pretty busy during the day so I rarely get a chance to read entire pages, therefore I skim. I feel like a derp for not seeing it given I'm the resident gearhead.

by **RoboRed** Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:08 pm

That was probably me. I JUST got finished reading though everything since last Thurdsay (f$cking schoolwork), and I brohoofed you for something.

Sadly, I don't remember what it was now... Applebloom

by **RoboRed** Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:10 pm

Also, in other news, I've been waiting to post this since last Thursday: Link

Since we all seem to like sci-fi/sciency stuff, I thought it might inject some discussion into the thread.

by O. Hinds Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:22 pm

OBS.GS.§S wrote:
Ironmonger wrote:Not to get off topic, but if
someone brohoofs me can they tell me when they do or at least give me a
hint? I'd like to know what I've done right so I can act accordingly in
the future. Sifting through pages trying to find what got up-voted is
tedious.
I can let you know when and why I brohoof you when I do.
__________

By the way, I was wondering if you guys had all seen the combat suit idea I posted a page back, Plasticube and Erumpet both gave me some good feedback, and I am very appreciative for it, thanks you guys; But they also were the ones that made the first two posts after I posted, and after that the discussion seemed to move on to other things. I understand if everyone has seen it and decided that they didn't want to reply, but I put a lot of effort into it and I'm proud of myself for it, so I just wanted to make sure it got a fair chance before it became old news.
__________

Also, sorry Hinds that I wasn't able to provide any feedback on your bridge idea, Cptadder beat me to it and discussed everything I was going to and then some, and I didn't want be redundant by only saying half of what someone else had already said on it.

No problem

RoboRed wrote:Also, in other news, I've been waiting to post this since last Thursday: Link

Since we all seem to like sci-fi/sciency stuff, I thought it might inject some discussion into the thread.

Ah, yes, I saw this. Thanks for posting it, though.

by Vergil Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:22 pm

RoboRed wrote:Also, in other news, I've been waiting to post this since last Thursday: Link

Since we all seem to like sci-fi/sciency stuff, I thought it might inject some discussion into the thread.

Awesome

and now I want to play Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri

by Cptadder Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:31 pm

Fiiiinnnaaaaalll round! The last Presidential debate is tonight!

The Rules wrote:In Round 4 of the debate drinking game the rules are as follows
We all wrote things down and put them in a box, we all pick two words to drink to and slight change we all drink twice if Kenya or the Mormon religion is mentioned
The players are for JO, K, A, M and I

JO has Russia and Terrorists
K has State department and Israel
M has Nuclear and China
A has Iran and Sanctions
I have Libya and Freedom

We all drink if North Korea is mentioned
Yes running short on time we all get a "enemy state" and something else, our current prediction is that A is going to require a hospital trip this evening.
We are going out strong for out last debate.

I think they are wrong, Libya and Freedom are gonna murder me thank you to K for putting FREEDOM in the choice bucket.

by Ironmonger Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:38 pm

RoboRed wrote:Also, in other news, I've been waiting to post this since last Thursday: Link

Since we all seem to like sci-fi/sciency stuff, I thought it might inject some discussion into the thread.

Time to put on mah SCIENCE FACE!
[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 8 MathWrath

by **RoboRed** Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:42 pm

Ironmonger wrote:
Time to put on mah SCIENCE FACE!

[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 8 Halolz-dot-com-teamfortress2-engineercosplay-backthefuckupimdoingscience

by **CamoBadger** Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:43 pm

RoboRed wrote:
Ironmonger wrote:
Time to put on mah SCIENCE FACE!

[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 8 Science_by_egophiliac-d4n2gxa

by Ironmonger Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:44 pm

by **RoboRed** Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:48 pm

That image is always good.

by Ironmonger Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:49 pm

by Caoimhe Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:50 pm

Damnit, Kipz, I was totally ready to go off on Luna/Goldie soap opera shit, but then I had actual work to do at work, but you covered it all. :(

by Ironmonger Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:51 pm

Science for the science god! BOOKS FOR THE BOOK FORT!
Battlecry: "You're gonna learn today!"

by **RoboRed** Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:57 pm

Ironmonger wrote:Science for the science god! BOOKS FOR THE BOOK FORT!

PAGES FOR THE PAGEMASTER!!!

by Ironmonger Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:58 pm

KNOWLEDGE WITHIN, KNOWLEDGE WITHOUT!

Knowledge Marine Captain:"I'm sorry brother, I cannot hear you over how much I FUCKING THIRST FOR KNOWLEDGE!" Roid Rage

EDIT:Whoops, looks like I'm not sober anymore, got drunk on swearing.

by Stringtheory Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:14 pm

Ironmonger wrote:KNOWLEDGE WITHIN, KNOWLEDGE WITHOUT!

Knowledge Marine Captain:"I'm sorry brother, I cannot hear you over how much I FUCKING THIRST FOR KNOWLEDGE!"
EDIT:Whoops, looks like I'm not sober anymore, got drunk on swearing.

no, that's just the chaos gods speaking clearly now that your mind has been freed from the rationality of sobriety

by Ironmonger Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:19 pm

I'm probably a conversion whore at this point, but I saw this and instantly imagined a pony version.

Spoiler:

by Ketchup Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:20 pm

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