[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Overthepacific wrote:

Sindri wrote:You need a lot more speed to get your center of mass out of the way than your hooves in front of it, and it's difficult to accelerate by more than about a G with just feet on level ground.

I find dodging it more realistic than catching it. Stopping the momentum of the round while somehow not having every bone in his forelegs shattered is unbelievable, getting out of the way as it gets fired seems to be a much less ridiculous alternative, all things considered.

My maths says that even if he only needs to move a half meter to dodge the shell, and he could accelerate at a full G on flat ground, he'd need almost a quarter second to do it in, which translates to more than 350 meters from the barrel of a tank. To catch it, even at a reasonable distance for conversation, his hooves would only have to average a slightly higher speed than a good major league pitcher; between the chems/alchemic augmentations and his own martial arts skill it's easy to believe he got his hooves up.

As for the forces involved, I calculated this out earlier but I didn't keep notes and that post of mine is at least a dozen pages back now... I believe it came out to similar kinetic energy to a bus at about 50mph? Which is a hell of a blow, yes, but within the realms of reason for high-end magical power armor made out of dragon bones by the finest talisman-crafters of a people who have been crafting talismans for millenia as a matter of survival. Especially when you consider that a true dragon would be bigger and faster than a bus, and he said they were less of a challenge than Blackjack.

A good gun gets its power from speed, not mass; it's a lot easier to stop the round than to get out of the way unless you're at extreme ranges. In the case of a 120mm cannon neither is easy, but one is plausible within physics as we know them while the other requires some sort of bullshit flash-stepping or something.

swicked wrote:

Overthepacific wrote:

Sindri wrote:You need a lot more speed to get your center of mass out of the way than your hooves in front of it, and it's difficult to accelerate by more than about a G with just feet on level ground.

I find dodging it more realistic than catching it. Stopping the momentum of the round while somehow not having every bone in his forelegs shattered is unbelievable, getting out of the way as it gets fired seems to be a much less ridiculous alternative, all things considered.

...maybe both? A parry? Brings his spear up as he's trying to move out of the way, bracing it against his arms in his weird zebra way, and pushing off the incoming shell as he dodges?

No time. That shell is moving like 1600 meters per second; even if he's got a whole meter worth of collision distance to do his pushing off in he's got less than a thousandth of a second in which to do it, and he'd need a fuckton of acceleration to make any sort of difference. That kind of tactic works if you're getting swiped at by a manticore, but not when you're shot. It's like how rolling with a punch can mean the difference between a cracked rib and a bruise, but rolling with a gunshot just knocks you off balance because the bullet's already done all it's going to by the time you start to move. At this kind of velocity, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, it's easier to absorb the blow than to avoid it.

Sindri wrote:My maths says that even if he only needs to move a half meter to dodge the shell, and he could accelerate at a full G on flat ground, he'd need almost a quarter second to do it in, which translates to more than 350 meters from the barrel of a tank. To catch it, even at a reasonable distance for conversation, his hooves would only have to average a slightly higher speed than a good major league pitcher; between the chems/alchemic augmentations and his own martial arts skill it's easy to believe he got his hooves up.

As for the forces involved, I calculated this out earlier but I didn't keep notes and that post of mine is at least a dozen pages back now... I believe it came out to similar kinetic energy to a bus at about 50mph? Which is a hell of a blow, yes, but within the realms of reason for high-end magical power armor made out of dragon bones by the finest talisman-crafters of a people who have been crafting talismans for millenia as a matter of survival. Especially when you consider that a true dragon would be bigger and faster than a bus, and he said they were less of a challenge than Blackjack.

Picturing him catching a bus speeding at him at 50mph? That sounds even more ridiculous than the tank shell. Even with all of the nonsensical magical abilities. Its more reasonable to assume that when blackjack asked if her friends could help, and him answering it, as well as the barrel pointing right at him, he couldve known what was coming, he has enough time to realize it and begin his path out of the trajectory.

Im totally making all this up in a reasonable estimation, but lets say the tank shell is something 8 inches in diameter, realistically he only has to move about maybe another ten inches to have the shell miss him, which doesnt have to be by much, just enough to not touch him.

I find it more believable that he had enough time to move ten inches out of the way for it to miss him, rather than stopping the momentum of a projectile going something like mach 4 or 5.

Sindri wrote:No, it's a very different profession. In the lower classes, prostitution is generally something turned to out of necessity because it's typically unpleasant, degrading, and dangerous but it gives you enough "easy" money to get by. In the higher classes it's a profession chosen by those of a certain mindset because it's generally easy, pleasurable work that pays a fuckton of money. There are almost certainly mares and stallions in Tenpony Tower with 'Escort' or 'Companion' listed as their official profession, living as well or better than their clients. Tenpony was never indicated to be a very conservative or sexually repressed culture, just one of classism and soft living.

It's not notably conservative, but I really doubt the Twi Soc would approve the application of someone whose stated profession was prostitution, or anything related. Yes, someone might later decide that was easier and better-paying (and safer?) than their stated profession, but remember that Tenpony, unlike its FO3 counterpart, brands itself as a meritocracy. Just being able to afford the rent doesn't automatically give someone a place there.

By the same token, though, you have businesses like a spa and a cheese shop, so it's not like you have to be a particle physicist or a mechanical genius to bother applying. I guess you're ultimately right -- as long as the hypothetical pony in question kept it classy, the residents probably wouldn't disapprove.

Meleagridis wrote:Aye, so we know what it does. But not where it's from. I know that Zebras have batwing candies that kirby themselves some air support, but why would they mark a silence gidget with bat wings? Unless it's the symbol of some clan or another, I think it's been liberated from some sort of LNR PLC or whatnot.

Um... I'm sorely tempted to reply, "Because Batman." I think you're really overthinking this; sometimes a bat is just a bat.

Bats are a symbol of darkness and stealth, and zebra magic relies more heavily on symbology than pony magic does. Presumably, this particular talisman used some bat parts in its construction, so they carved it into a bat shape. It's pretty clearly not of pony make -- if it were, it should involve at least one gemstone to store the spell. It's an Old World zebra gun with a zebra-style talisman built in, found in a zebra's hooves. I don't see anything out of place here.

Overthepacific wrote:Picturing him catching a bus speeding at him at 50mph? That sounds even more ridiculous than the tank shell. Even with all of the nonsensical magical abilities. Its more reasonable to assume that when blackjack asked if her friends could help, and him answering it, as well as the barrel pointing right at him, he couldve known what was coming, he has enough time to realize it and begin his path out of the trajectory.

Im totally making all this up in a reasonable estimation, but lets say the tank shell is something 8 inches in diameter, realistically he only has to move about maybe another ten inches to have the shell miss him, which doesnt have to be by much, just enough to not touch him.

I find it more believable that he had enough time to move ten inches out of the way for it to miss him, rather than stopping the momentum of a projectile going something like mach 4 or 5.

A shot 120mm in diameter, aimed at center mass of a rather large zebra in heavy armor? Alright, let's assume that he only needs a millimeter between him and the supersonic shell. And let's assume he's relatively lean, only half a meter wide. Add maybe 2cm for the armor, and you've got a minimum movement of 33cm. Now, they were having a conversation before the shot was fired, but maybe they were yelling it out. Let's place him 30 meters from the end of the barrel, about a hundred feet. 30m / 1600m/s = .01875 seconds to react in. To travel 33cm from a dead stop in .01875 seconds, he would need to accelerate at... 937 m/s^2. About 96 Gs. On flat ground, by foot. He would only need to maintain that acceleration for a third of a second to shatter the sound barrier on foot, and the forces involved and pressure waves he produced would let him flip the tank and gel every organic in the area just by taking a quick jog.

In comparison, imagine a bus hitting a tree. A lot of noise, a lot of damage, but generally the bus stops and the tree stands. With the kinds of force fields we've already seen from alicorns, a single caster can stop low-end missiles. With the kind we've seen set up on the Ministry Mares' private chambers, you can stop an armored division. Is it really so hard to believe that the best talismans made from the best materials by the best craftsmen can harden a zebra enough for a fraction of a second to withstand impact as well as an ordinary tree?

Sindri wrote:

He knew what was coming, and when the shot was fired he already couldve been on his path out of the trajectory. He doesnt have to react and travel that fast if he knows its already coming for him and able to move accordingly.

Sindri wrote: Is it really so hard to believe that the best talismans made from the
best materials by the best craftsmen can harden a zebra enough for a
fraction of a second to withstand impact as well as an ordinary tree?

Honestly yes. A tree is deeply rooted into the ground, It takes a lot of force to uproot a fully grown tree with the widespread roots that are anchored in place. Even if the Legates bones and all the talismans were able to stop the impact, he would most definitely be thrown back with the shell, theres just no way he could stop it dead in its tracks with only his two hindhooves planted into the ground. He wouldve been thrown backwards until him and the shell hit something else.

Im not saying him moving out of the way is realistically logical, but it is much more so than him catching it like he did.

swicked wrote:I enjoy your argument, Sindri.
To (badly) paraphrase: "Here is a bunch of physics/math to prove your opinion has to be wrong. My opinion is that it's magic. Now, tell me, which sounds more reasonable?"

We have plenty of precedent for high-level protective magic, but the closest we've seen to magical acceleration on anything even resembling that scale is a pegasus capable of a sonic rainboom. We already know that he has barriers in place because they were bouncing machinegun fire. When magic is an established part of the universe, and it follows rules, it just becomes another part of physics. The rules as they have been established allow for catching a shell, but make dodging one incredibly improbable, and anything that gave him the ability to dodge the shell would give him a whole slew of secondary (highly destructive) abilities just because of the way speed works.

Overthepacific wrote:Even if the Legates bones and all the talismans were able to stop the impact, he would most definitely be thrown back with the shell, theres just no way he could stop it dead in its tracks with only his two hindhooves planted into the ground. He wouldve been thrown backwards until him and the shell hit something else.

Im not saying him moving out of the way is realistically logistic, but it is much more so than him catching it like he did.

But he did not just stop it where he stood. He was pushed across the battlefield by the impact. The barriers could extend into the ground to anchor him somewhat, to the point where they stopped eventually (sudden mental image of bolting a plow to the back of a school bus as a breaking system...) but he could never stop it cold.

Sindri wrote:But he did not just stop it where he stood. He was pushed across the battlefield by the impact. The barriers could extend into the ground to anchor him somewhat, to the point where they stopped eventually (sudden mental image of bolting a plow to the back of a school bus as a breaking system...) but he could never stop it cold.

It doesnt matter when it actually stopped, the process of stopping it in the first place is what is just plain ridiculous and unbelievable.

To put some imagery on the shell dodging.
Everyone has seen the matrix, I assume. In the part where Neo dodges the bullets he doesnt move out of position and dodge them as soon as the bullets are fired, he anticipates the firing and moves into the position to dodge them. He isnt breaking any sound barrier by doing that, he simply got out of the way as he began firing.

Thats why I have a better time believing the legate could dodge it rather than catch it. Out of the two choices, moving out of the way is the obvious winner for logic in this case.

Overthepacific wrote:To put some imagery on the shell dodging.
Everyone has seen the matrix, I assume. In the part where Neo dodges the bullets he doesnt move out of position and dodge them as soon as the bullets are fired, he anticipates the firing and moves into the position to dodge them. He isnt breaking any sound barrier by doing that, he simply got out of the way as he began firing.

Thats why I have a better time believing the legate could dodge it rather than catch it. Out of the two choices, moving out of the way is the obvious winner for logic in this case.

First, the Legate was standing still before Blackjack tapped her foot. If he started moving them rather than when the shot was fired he could have an extra hundredth of a second, but he was still a really easy target and based on what he know of him dodging a bullet like that is physically impossible.

Second, that scene of the matrix clearly shows his fingers moving faster than the bullets, and the trigger mechanism of the gun operating far more rapidly than is anywhere near physically possible. Either it was intentionally wrong to reinforce the impression of a computer simulation, or the director simply did not know how anything there worked; I suspect the latter. If that kind of movie is what you're basing your impressions of possibility and impossibility on, they need to be reexamined. Frankly, logic has no place in that movie.

Sindri wrote:
First, the Legate was standing still before Blackjack tapped her
foot. If he started moving them rather than when the shot was fired he
could have an extra hundredth of a second, but he was still a really
easy target and based on what he know of him dodging a bullet like that
is physically impossible.

Anticipating the shot, I think that between the hoof tap and the time it would take for dues to react to it he has much more than a hundredth of a second. Obviously, in the chapter, he didnt dodge out of the way, that wouldve been more believable, but he didnt. I dont like the scene at all honestly, but to start it off like that is only introduces the absurd notion of him in general.

Sindri wrote:
Second, that scene of the matrix clearly shows his fingers moving
faster than the bullets, and the trigger mechanism of the gun operating
far more rapidly than is anywhere near physically possible. Either it
was intentionally wrong to reinforce the impression of a computer
simulation, or the director simply did not know how anything there
worked; I suspect the latter. If that kind of movie is what you're
basing your impressions of possibility and impossibility on, they need
to be reexamined. Frankly, logic has no place in that movie.

I used that scene as an example of what I thought it wouldve looked like, and how the whole process wouldve gone, you dont have to get so nitpicky about it.

Sindri wrote:

Meleagridis wrote:The best zebra told us about him somewhere near the beginning when Blackjack asked about Rampage.

Really? I don't remember Xanthe talking about him much...

Glaring, Judging:

SilentCarto wrote:
Um... I'm sorely tempted to reply, "Because Batman." I think you're really overthinking this; sometimes a bat is just a bat.

Bats are a symbol of darkness and stealth, and zebra magic relies more heavily on symbology than pony magic does. Presumably, this particular talisman used some bat parts in its construction, so they carved it into a bat shape. It's pretty clearly not of pony make -- if it were, it should involve at least one gemstone to store the spell. It's an Old World zebra gun with a zebra-style talisman built in, found in a zebra's hooves. I don't see anything out of place here.

I guess the thing that's really getting me is that it isn't a rune or a glyph. It's nothing in the zebra style. The Legate was covered in runic carvings, not tattoos that embodied the virtues he wished to pass on to himself. I just don't think that rifle is zebra.

Overthepacific wrote:

swicked wrote:
Question: What would you WANT the Legate to be like if he HAD to exist and HAD to have some form of special abilities in order to stand up to Blackjack? What should “the power of Caesar” be, let alone “the power of the stars” (if he were the eternal warrior)?

Spoiler:

If I could have it my way, thatd be it. But I cant.

Legate Spoilers:

Okay, no- in all 100% honesty, if my sort of mind had any say in the fight then Viti would have just been blown across the airfield. Not destroyed- but taken out of the fight for underestimating a tank. Cue chase scene. Let Deus really shine, since being a friggin tank puts him on really thin ice in terms of livability (strangely enough) and show us that having firepower still matters.

Sindri wrote:A shot 120mm in diameter, aimed at center mass of a rather large zebra in heavy armor? Alright, let's assume that he only needs a millimeter between him and the supersonic shell. And let's assume he's relatively lean, only half a meter wide. Add maybe 2cm for the armor, and you've got a minimum movement of 33cm. Now, they were having a conversation before the shot was fired, but maybe they were yelling it out. Let's place him 30 meters from the end of the barrel, about a hundred feet. 30m / 1600m/s = .01875 seconds to react in.

And that's being generous to Deus and assuming that his guns are really good. 1600m/s is the velocity for a modern gun with an APDS round. I'd actually think that his are shorter. And the round is HE.

Why I think it's shorter is because Deus's own armor isn't that thick (as BJ was actually able to tear it off); and he's a heavy tank, so other tanks have less and a super-high-velocity gun is superfluous.

And I think I've already written this sometime ago.

How everyone killed Lanius

I took a Riot Gun (loaded with all the Denarii Shots I've made througout the campaign). And I had the shotgun perks, so Lanius was knocked down, and I didn't let him get up. It was very anti-climactic.

Switching topics real quick: Is the "Kiss of Discord" Perk ever going to actively come into play, or was it just put in as a gag?
And, in case it is implemented, I'm putting 1000 caps on it allowing BJ to somehow screw destiny and survive whatever cruel end it had had in place for her.

jacky2734 wrote:Switching topics real quick: Is the "Kiss of Discord" Perk ever going to actively come into play, or was it just put in as a gag?
And, in case it is implemented, I'm putting 1000 caps on it allowing BJ to somehow screw destiny and survive whatever cruel end it had had in place for her.

I put another 1000 caps on it happening at the end during the rematch with the legate. Yet another 500 caps says she'll utter "I didn't hear no bell."

I'll put a 1000 on BJ dying (again) and meeting Discord somewhere in the heavens.

Overthepacific wrote:I used that scene as an example of what I thought it wouldve looked like, and how the whole process wouldve gone, you dont have to get so nitpicky about it.

But the picking of nits is what I do best!


Effect of Discord's Kiss? Well, it's a sign of affection from the God of Chaos... I think that it probably gives her the ability to do the impossible, see the invisible, roh roh fight the power.

*runs*

[quote="Valikdu"]

Sindri wrote:*snip*

How everyone killed Lanius

I took a Riot Gun (loaded with all the Denarii Shots I've made througout the campaign). And I had the shotgun perks, so Lanius was knocked down, and I didn't let him get up. It was very anti-climactic.

I had three favourite ways to make defeating him easy (or hilarious) enough to care about it:


-Kill it with fire - Watch him as he flails in pain from my mighty heavy incinerator bringing down flame fuelled death, a truly just way to go given what the Legion would do to others.

-Kill it with fire x 2 - This time I cannot watch him burn to a crisp because the sheer power of Helios One completely blinds me. However, it still burns him alive albeit within less than seconds. Super effective if you do it without having triggered his event.

-Get down and stay down - There's one particular weapon I adore for this fight. 50.cal Anti-materiel rifle... to the face.
You shoot him in the face with a sneak shot and you've got a good chance of having killed him the first time around.
If he does survive he's likely been knocked down. Wait for him to get up and start running at you then aloud say this: "GET DOWN", shoot him, "AND STAY DOWN" as he gets knocked back.

Sindri wrote:

Overthepacific wrote:I used that scene as an example of what I thought it wouldve looked like, and how the whole process wouldve gone, you dont have to get so nitpicky about it.

But the picking of nits is what I do best!

Well it turned that argument from a civil discussion to an ad hominem about my logic with using an example I thought everyone would understand.

Swicked wrote:I, too, think it'd be cool if he could move during SATS, but I think it would be more like how people with magic can move when you stop time in the game Dishonored... namely, some people are just capable of ignoring such spells, they aren't moving so fast they don't matter

How would that work? SATS is a spell solely on the user.

Silentcarto wrote:It's not notably conservative, but I really doubt the Twi Soc would approve the application of someone whose stated profession was prostitution, or anything related. Yes, someone might later decide that was easier and better-paying (and safer?) than their stated profession, but remember that Tenpony, unlike its FO3 counterpart, brands itself as a meritocracy. Just being able to afford the rent doesn't automatically give someone a place there.

By the same token, though, you have businesses like a spa and a cheese shop, so it's not like you have to be a particle physicist or a mechanical genius to bother applying. I guess you're ultimately right -- as long as the hypothetical pony in question kept it classy, the residents probably wouldn't disapprove.

Right. It's just another form of entertainment

Overthepacific wrote:It doesnt matter when it actually stopped, the process of stopping it in the first place is what is just plain ridiculous and unbelievable.

Sindri has been making very good arguments for how it's both sensible and believable; I'm really not sure what problem you're still having.

Overthepacific wrote:Well it turned that argument from a civil discussion to an ad hominem about my logic with using an example I thought everyone would understand.

But said example was flawed.

swicked wrote:Magic is weird. Ever played okami? I personally thought "brush mode", wherein you basically take a moment to use your powers to affect the world, was strictly a "personal spell". It didn't stop one of the enemies you face from hijacking it to attack you back, though. That surprised the heck out of me.
Similarly, in the anime Naruto, the main character can recede inside himself inside of a moment to call upon this monster that resides inside him. In one episode, though, he faced someone that could follow him in there.

If the legate couldn't move, maybe he could break it. See where BJ was calling her shots, taunt her inside SATS or even mess with her aim, calling some shots for her. How great would that be, her calling two on the legate and the last on Glory, then going "...what?" and not being able to cancel it?
There are no limits to how much magic can be screwed with. Yes, there's no precident for anyone doing anything like that before, but I still wouldn't be surprised by such a mostly hero-exclusive advantage being completely subverted.

I'm still not sure how hacking SATS could be done in any way that would fit with Vitiosus, and I don't see how being able to move in SATS would be distinct from being really fast. I suppose that both are possible, but I'd need them explained.

swicked wrote:Magic is weird...

In a reasonable setting, magic follows rules and can be manipulated from within that framework. The Dishonored time stop seems to be targeted at everyone and everything around you, allowing an opponent to follow you in just be being immune to the spell so that everything except you and them pauses. I'm not familiar enough with Okami to answer that one... and I avoid Naruto like the plague but I would suspect some form of telepathy from how you described it.

The SATS spell works by accelerating the user to where people moving at normal speed look paused. In order to 'follow her in' he would need to somehow link himself to her such that spells cast on her affected him as well; theoretically possible but completely without precedent and rather unwise, tactically speaking (when she swallows an Enervation ring or something and melts him through the connection). Unless the spell were shared, the only things coming along with are in her EFS and in her brain. Or, he can just move fast enough to still be going even when she sees normal people as paused. Like the completely ordinary stallion on combat drugs a few dozen chapters ago.

Plus from a stylistic point of view? He starts moving faster than the eye can follow. You slip into SATS to consider your options and plan some shots at him... and he's still coming. Slow enough to see now, but inexorable, powerful, almost upon you, and you just know that as soon as the spell drops you're doomed.

Overthepacific wrote:Well it turned that argument from a civil discussion to an ad hominem about my logic with using an example I thought everyone would understand.

I apologize if I caused offense, but an argumentum ad hominem is an attack on the person, rather than their logic.

When I argue, my goal is to approach the truth of things. If I believe logic to be flawed I will point this out, if I believe examples to be invalid I will explain why I consider them to be so, if I believe I have thought of something which did not occur to others I will bring it up for discussion. In return, I appreciate when others do the same to me. I love learning and I hate being wrong, so nothing pleases me more than when I am proven to be incorrect. When my own logic is shown to be flawed I will correct it, and any conclusions drawn from it. When my examples are shown to be invalid I will discard them and adjust my beliefs accordingly. When my opponent convinces me that their standpoint is more correct than my own, I will change my mind.

I will never attack the person behind the argument, because such attacks are anathema to rational discourse. "Winning" an argument has no value. Offending another until they leave the discussion or cease to take part rationally removes all the valuable insight they might offer. And most of all, ignoring the argument because of your notions of the person who conceived it blinds you to the possibility that they might be right, defeating the entire purpose of communicating with those outside your own head in the first place.

I love to argue because every time I lose I come a little bit closer to being right, some infinitesimal distance toward the elusive "truth." This is why I despise politics, why me and organized religion don't get along very well no matter how many of their teachings I tend to think are good ideas, and probably why I don't have all that many friends among normal folk.


There is, as far as I can tell, nothing wrong with you as a person. However, your mind has been ingrained with images of people dodging bullets which convince you that it is possible regardless of what the numbers say, and you know that the notion of stopping a tank shell is absurd. My first reaction was similar, that he was clearly showing off by catching it when getting out of the way would be easier and more practical, but then I stopped to ask why I thought that way, ran the numbers, and changed my mind. If you can find a flaw in either the logic or the mathematics, please point it out to me so I can stop being wrong.
But please don't just say that it's ridiculous. Just like the sound of a real horse sounds ridiculous to someone who grew up hearing coconuts clapping together. Just like real gunfire sounds fake to someone familiar with the sound effects on TV. Just like a viking looks ridiculous without silly little horns on the helmet to guide blades toward a lethal blow and focus their impact enough to cleave through.

BJ ain't two dimensional Littlepip who just pushes forward with everything. Whoever said PH has an amount of "realism" to it is very very correct and it's one of the reasons I knew the story was gonna be good when I first started.

I cannot really agree with that statement: First off, i am a big fan of the Original and did not think that Little Pip was 2-dimensional, she did regret a lot of things she did, and did change over the course of her adventure. But she did not have a emotional breakdown every time she killed some raiders , which i think is a good thing. If she would have been more like BJ in that regard i would have stopped reading after 6-7 chapters.
And second i don´t think that everyone who has to kill other sentient beeings is automatically transformed into a depressed pile of Angst. My Great-Grandfather fought on the eastern front in WW2, and while he did not like to talk about that time, he was a very happy person from what my father told me. He did not lament about whatever he had to do there all the time. He once said , he had to do it, because it was the only option he had (he was drafted). And i never thought of him as a sociopath because of that. Or take finish Sniper Simon Häyhä, who has a confirmed Kill-count of 505, who said regarding to how many people he killed: When asked if he regretted killing so many people, he said, "I only did my duty, and what I was told to do, as well as I could." Furthermore he did not suffer from depression, like BJ seems to do.
Also while i get the whole point of BJ reacting on killing another pony like she did at the beginning of the fic, it gets really repetive and boring after so many chapters and probably more Kills then Simon Häyhä and Kurt Knispel together. Its not making her character deep, its just trying to do so by trying to make her the saddest beeing in the wastes.

Mr. Snrub wrote:Also while i get the whole point of BJ reacting on killing another pony like she did at the beginning of the fic, it gets really repetive and boring after so many chapters and probably more Kills then Simon Häyhä and Kurt Knispel together. Its not making her character deep, its just trying to do so by trying to make her the saddest beeing in the wastes.

Different people have different reactions to being in a war. There are people who are deeply traumatized by lethal combat just as there are people who don't have 'much' difficulty with the psychological impact. There are too many examples of PTSD from serving in the military.

I don't care how many people get tired with Blackjack's emotional portrayal; I find BJ's frequent dips into depression entirely believable because that's how depression actually feels like. It doesn't go away when it's had its time in in the story, in real life it comes back again and again and again. BJ feels as real a person to me when she's depressed as when she's a singing drunk.

And you'll note that kills in even combat don't really mess her up. If she's fighting a monster like... manticore-girl whose name I have forgotten, or nameless raiders, or evil gangers, she enjoys combat and never looks back on the death she inflicts. What messes her up are the kids manipulated into taking a shot at her, the stable full of people who aren't monsters yet but need to be killed to prevent everything from going to hell across the whole Hoof, the forty foals she couldn't give any help beyond a painless death, the pegasi she mutilated because she wasn't thinking straight...

There's a big difference between somebody who's about to kill you and somebody who's at your mercy. And even when you know that ending them is the right thing to do, it's never easy to execute someone. If it is, that means you've become the monster.

swicked wrote:
At this point, though, I'm really just grasping at straws so if it's still entirely implausible that the legate could have no way to counteract, subvert or replicate a spell common to all pipbucks (which were employed through a lot of the military, I thought...)

Maybe not Viti, but there's another baddie with a technological bent.

If Cogs were to pull off a ninetails okami style mirror match, I'd be most pleased. Those were always my favourite bosses, the ones that played by your rules.

As for the brush, I think it was more of a shorthand for all that godly might. I didn't get the impression that Ammy was actually painting wind and bombs into existence- just 'godessing' them out of nothing. So was Ninetails, while pouring divine juice into countering your own mojo. But I had the same impression of VATS- it's a targeting system, I just figured it helped you aim. But Kkat made time-stopping a canon part of FO:E SATS, so... Urgh, it's almost as annoying as memory orbs.

Mr. Snrub wrote:Furthermore he did not suffer from depression, like BJ seems to do.

Which makes them very invalid comparisons.

And Littlepip may not be as flat as, say, a Simpsons character, but she's far from perfect. She went from nobody techie to hardened, weapon toting wasteland badass in... days, was it? From a world where death is what happened when people grew too old straight to brutally maiming and executing ponies left right and center. The biggest reason I loved PH is because death is never just backbenched as something people just get used to- life always has value. Littlepip had one chapter where she thought, "Oh no! I'm murdering! Woe is me!" After which she promptly returned to mowing down baddies like a character in a video game. Blackjack tries to push away the realisation that she's a murderer, but she can't. Scoodle's name outlasted the character by some thirty/forty chapters, and that is good. Tragedy should not fade and lose weight and life shouldn't be an obstacle. That's what I get from Blackjack, and that's why Horizons is my favourite.

Meleagridis wrote:If Cogs were to pull off a ninetails okami style mirror match, I'd be most pleased. Those where always my favourite bosses, the ones that played by your rules.

Ooh, nice idea!

O. Hinds wrote:

Overthepacific wrote:It doesnt matter when it actually stopped, the process of stopping it in the first place is what is just plain ridiculous and unbelievable.

Sindri has been making very good arguments for how it's both sensible and believable; I'm really not sure what problem you're still having.

Overthepacific wrote:Well it turned that argument from a civil discussion to an ad hominem about my logic with using an example I thought everyone would understand.

But said example was flawed.

Shit O.Hinds, youre all up on my case.

Alright I still stand by my opinion, but I also thought of something while I was at work in favor of.
Sindri said before that the math behind the sheer speed needing to dodge the bullet was an absurd concept, and that it was near impossible in this universe. That the 96 G force acting in his acceleration wasnt a correct concept.
http://www.equestriadaily.com/2011/04/physics-behind-sonic-rainboom.html
Rainbow dash pulled out of 1670 g turn, and lived, with what, four ponies on her?
In this universe it seems that moving with the force all most ten times less than that seems to be entirely possible, and I wasnt even talking about moving right when the shell was fired.
Im sure if Rainbow dash can exert that kind of force, than the eternal warrior legate can pull off something similar.

You guys seemed to be more concerned with my example trying to help you see what I was thinking than actually trying to visualize it yourself.

Sindri wrote:
But please don't just say that it's ridiculous. Just like the sound of a real horse sounds ridiculous to someone who grew up hearing coconuts clapping together. Just like real gunfire sounds fake to someone familiar with the sound effects on TV. Just like a viking looks ridiculous without silly little horns on the helmet to guide blades toward a lethal blow and focus their impact enough to cleave through.

I think its ridiculous because its more or less the "Its magic, I aint gotta explain shit" kinda thing. I can see where youre coming from, with the talismans and the armor being extremely powerful, but just everything else around it from the impact to his footing, and everything in between seem to just be off. Im not just saying that its ridiculous without reason, I gave you plenty of reasons why I thought it was, Im not trying to be base or hostile here.

Overthepacific wrote:

O. Hinds wrote:

Overthepacific wrote:It doesnt matter when it actually stopped, the process of stopping it in the first place is what is just plain ridiculous and unbelievable.

Sindri has been making very good arguments for how it's both sensible and believable; I'm really not sure what problem you're still having.

Overthepacific wrote:Well it turned that argument from a civil discussion to an ad hominem about my logic with using an example I thought everyone would understand.

But said example was flawed.

Shit O.Hinds, youre all up on my case.

Alright I still stand by my opinion, but I also thought of something while I was at work in favor of.
Sindri said before that the math behind the sheer speed needing to dodge the bullet was an absurd concept, and that it was near impossible in this universe. That the 96 G force acting in his acceleration wasnt a correct concept.
http://www.equestriadaily.com/2011/04/physics-behind-sonic-rainboom.html
Rainbow dash pulled out of 1670 g turn, and lived, with what, four ponies on her?
In this universe it seems that moving with the force all most ten times less than that seems to be entirely possible, and I wasnt even talking about moving right when the shell was fired.
Im sure if Rainbow dash can exert that kind of force, than the eternal warrior legate can pull off something similar.

You guys seemed to be more concerned with my example trying to help you see what I was thinking than actually trying to visualize it yourself.

Indeed, high-g magic exists, involved with rainbooms if nothing else. It is also almost certainly more difficult to pull off than chems+martial arts.