Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by O. Hinds Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:56 pm

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:
Overthepacific wrote:
Sindri wrote:Point is, guns and grenades certainly rule most day-to-day conflicts, but the highest powers on either side will likely be pure magic.

Spoiler:
I'm still not sure he's got anything like the powers he claims to have, tbh. What's been shown is pretty intense - nothing hard to deal with, given a bit of thought and effort, but not something you'd want to go hoof-to-hoof with - but based on what Somber said in the spoiler, I don't think I'd trust that he can do everything he says he can do, and certainly not without limits. For instance: Celestia moves the sun, and Luna the moon, but neither seemed to be able to weaponize their respective fields without aid from tech/magic from others.

I think it's all to do with mantles of power, in a sense, if you've heard of the concept (Dresden files, ho!). Originally, the mantle of power for moving the sun and moon fell on the unicorn nation (mythologically), but at some point they came to rest on the alicorns Luna and Celestia. My personal little theory... oh wait, dude, the/a Legate is in the original FOE (search "legatus legionis"). From context, he appears to have been pro-war with the ponies, and is described as worse than the Caesar. Anyway, personal little theory, what if the Legate is sort of analogous to the projects the ponies had going - essentially, a replacement Caesar. All that tech and magic funneled into him, allowing him to weaponize the power of the caesar in the same way that Celestia-1 weaponized the sun, or that Project Horizons may or may not weaponize the moon. It would not really surprise me if he was scheming even during the war to bring this about; that would explain the zebra sabotage of the peace conference, when it seemed like the (original) Caesar would have been amenable to the idea. He may have even had the Caesar killed somehow. Anyway, at some point, that mantle passed to him, potentially after the apocalypse.

We do know that the power, if it even exists, passes from zebra to zebra. Caesars were originally supposed to be the best and wisest diplomats, not unlike the role of the Princesses.

I dunno, the more I look at this, the more I see some sort of conspiracy reaching way, way back, mirroring much of what went on in wartime Equestria. While I agree that this is not the focus of the story, it does seem to fit with its themes, and is starting to become interesting the more I poke at it.

Random thoughts:
-Multiple legates existed at any one time. Was Vitosius alive at that point, or is he merely heir to all this junk?
-Honorius, a legate during the war, is associated with the Brood of Coyotl, which are regarded as abominable by some zebras. Same guy as above.
-We know that underneath the surface, there is some internal turmoil amongst the zebras. Otherwise, we wouldn't have defectors in the first place. As Goldenblood says, to paraphrase: the zebras invented shadowy politics. Different tribes, elders, legates, the Caesar himself - all have different interests.

Anyway, yeah, that's more or less all I got so far. It's surely a WIP at best, but yeah. I'm pretty certain at this point that there's both more and less to this guy than has been revealed, aaaaand while I wasn't all that interested in him or the zebras before (sorry, Hinds!), I kinda now am.

edit: I haven't gone delving into CTRL+F powered conspiracy theory mode for a while now; feels good, man!

Re mention of a Legatus Legionis in Foe:
Hm, thanks; I'd forgotten that. Steelhooves speaks of the rank as if it had a singular occupant, which is quite odd, but I'll headcanon that out of existence; I imagine that it was another research failure on Kkat's part.

by O. Hinds Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:57 pm

Overthepacific wrote:
Ketchup wrote:I'm looking forward to the resolutions and how Somber will handle them to avoid rushing, hopefully.

After the last twenty chapters, I think that attempting to avoid
rushing is becoming a problem. I would be fine if many of these
underlying plot lines were tied up within a couple of chapters, but they
arent. Many are put off and forgotten only to be brought up when Ive
all but forgotten about them. I know I dont want somber to rush into the
ending and have it feel lacking like kkat did, but I fear that when the
end comes, all these other side plots will still be all but forgotten
and unresolved, just like they are now. Not to mention that I would have
to take notes just to really keep track of every single different issue
just to stay up to date with them and be able to keep it all
understandable.

Have you considered that much of that may be that you're reading the chapters as they're released? The gaps over which you'd need to remember things would be much smaller reading it straight through.

by Guest Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:02 pm

@Pacific
Same reason Sauron had an army, I guess; gotta get stuff done, and power's not unlimited. (Other reasons: it's Hoofington, and he knows the sort of stuff that's in there; one must have a retinue, 'tis only fitting; and ya need someone to carry stuff around) Anyway, fight's getting edited, so I'm suspending further canon speculation on my part 'til I read it.

Anyway, I don't think the Starmaiden arc itself is really new, nor is the Remnant; it's just that it's now coming to a head. I'm not sure it was needed to have a what-Blackjack-could-have-become-and-could-still-be big bad in the zebra ranks, but it does fit with the themes of the story and all, so that's nice. Anyway, there are a bunch of conflicts that have already been resolved, as much as I anticipate resolution - most of the interpersonal ones (I want more o' these =P), Reapers vs. Rangers, Deus, Sanguine, the Zodiacs, the cannibal raider virus. The main active ones seem to be: Remnant (pseudo-active, though increasingly so), Harbingers (main), and Enclave (Thunderhead especially). At least two of these boil down to EoS, the main conflict. Still not sure how the Remnant's gonna end up with that, but I'm pretty confident it will. Enclave conflict has a way in, too, with Dawn. Things seem to be converging. Not sure how the Society is going to be handled; fairly quickly, I expect, one way or another, since the main exposition we need is on Dawn (I anticipate an appearance from her, or her hoof in whatever goes on) and on the Roseluck pesticide angle (this seems to be getting deferred by the Goddess' interference).

@O Hinds
One thing, though, is that taking advantage of the medium - serialized release of chapters - could be really cool. Oh, and I imagined that the Legatus Legionis was maybe just the head boss man of the whole military wing; in Roman times, at least, it wouldn't make sense for there to be just one Legatus Legionis, 'cos he's just the head of one legion.

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:13 pm

O. Hinds wrote:Have you considered that much of that may be that you're reading the chapters as they're released? The gaps over which you'd need to remember things would be much smaller reading it straight through.

They might be, but honestly, considering the length of the story overall, and the sheer amount to try to piece together and remember, even reading straight through is going to leave a lot to be desired. It was a lot better when all that was going on was attempting to get away from dues and worrying about the OIA projects.

Ive reread straight through up to 33 several times, but every time I go back to read after that, it just seems to get more frustrating from there.

Oh, and before I forget, there was always something that bugged me about chapter 34. Why did she use a metal hoof that is in no part her flesh, instead of trying to open it with her mouth?

by Caoimhe Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:17 pm

I'd be annoyed with overlapping and increasing plotlines if wasn't for the fact that BLACKJACK IS TOO! Her eventual next nervous breakdown is going to be the greatest thing. BJ ain't two dimensional Littlepip who just pushes forward with everything. Whoever said PH has an amount of "realism" to it is very very correct and it's one of the reasons I knew the story was gonna be good when I first started.

There are criticisms, sure but the protagonist's reactions and motivations are spot the fuck on for whatever Somber throws at her. Hell, Somber could throw humans in the story right now and while I'd wtf at it and scream a lot, Blackjack's reaction alone would make it justifiable (Please don't ever do this).

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:22 pm

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:

Right now it seems as if they arent even sure what to do anymore, even trying to focus on the main three (remnants, harbringers, and enclave). Shadowbolt tower seems to be a sidequest thats quite low on the list right now, and instead of dealing with one at a time, theyre all attempting to be dealt with together, which is not helping the coherency at all.

If they would just be straightforward and deal with things, instead of accidently stumbling on an arc related place, then moving forward in that particular area just cause theyre there, then things would be much clearer.

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:32 pm

Caoimhe wrote:I'd be annoyed with overlapping and increasing plotlines if wasn't for the fact that BLACKJACK IS TOO! Her eventual next nervous breakdown is going to be the greatest thing. BJ ain't two dimensional Littlepip who just pushes forward with everything.

To me, Blackjack is just not in the place that she should be for how far shes come. All of the self loathing and reluctance about anything is getting old. I really dont wanna go through another ten paragraphs about how bad a pony she is, and how shes trying to do better, and that she doesnt deserve anything. It was understandable after the incident with the stable, a little bit less so but still after sanguine slaughtered half the country side, but now, it is just not even relatable with her as a character. I like her so much better when shes cocky and reckless in the middle of a fight, but then slipping into a self blaming depression right afterwards? It really isnt understandable anymore, let alone enjoyable.

Caoimhe wrote:There are criticisms, sure but the protagonist's reactions and motivations are spot the fuck on for whatever Somber throws at her. Hell, Somber could throw humans in the story right now and while I'd wtf at it and scream a lot, Blackjack's reaction alone would make it justifiable (Please don't ever do this).

I second this. Please dont do this.

by O. Hinds Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:33 pm

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:@O Hinds
One thing, though, is that taking advantage of the medium - serialized release of chapters - could be really cool. Oh, and I imagined that the Legatus Legionis was maybe just the head boss man of the whole military wing; in Roman times, at least, it wouldn't make sense for there to be just one Legatus Legionis, 'cos he's just the head of one legion.

According to my research, though, a Legatus Legionis only commands a single legion; it's a Legatus Augusti pro Praetore that commands two or more legions, and that's still probably not a commander of the overall military.

And, actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't make much sense for the Caesar's default replacement to be the commander in chief of the military; the commander in chief has enough to worry about without suddenly being burdened with the Caesar's civilian duties, and hoofing control of the government over to the military like that (because if the commander in chief is expected to keep the two sides separate, why appoint the commander in chief to the post at all?) would likely cause problems with the populace in general even during wartime. I'll continue to put this down to this being an area that Kkat wasn't very good at.

by Derpmind Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:33 pm

Sindri wrote:Machines have two primary advantages over magic: first, they can be used by anyone with little training, so a recruit with a rifle is as lethal as a unicorn who's trained to cast magic bullet spells for years.

...as lethal as a unicorn who's trained for years to cast magic bullet spells. Sorry, I know it's clear enough what you meant to say, but unawareness of these kinds of mistakes is what leads to making the mistakes that do cause misunderstandings.

About the entire Anime discussion, what everyone in-the-know's failing to mention is that in Japan, Anime literally means animation. It's only called Anime in the 'western world' because it sounds better than saying "Japanese Animation." Moreover, in 'the west' only in recent years has anything beyond action-adventure fantasy/sci-fi stuff been translated for western audiences. When you ask most people who speak english about Anime, the first thing they think of is Dragonball and Naruto and Ghost in the Shell simply because those were all that was actually available to watch. There's a growing community of not-Japanese who are watching more varied stuff, but the general pop-culture impression of the not-eastern world is ridiculous hair and explosions.

I do agree that the Legate fight was disappointing. Somber is an amazing author at writing action scenes, so it was kinda shocking that the Legate wasn't fighting skillfully. One of the great truths of the ~~infinitude~~ universe is that no matter how much power one has, what is even more important is how one uses it. The Legate basically stands still and one-shots each of BJ's friends one after another. How did the Legate deal with BJ's sword attack? By being basically invulnerable to it. I really hope that in Somber's revision, it's reduced to a duel between just BJ and the Legate. I don't mind BJ being beaten into the ground by a more skillful opponent, but what I do mind is getting beaten into the ground by an opponent that is only more powerful. We've seen plenty of super-powerful enemies in FoE and PH: The Alicorns, the Ultra-Sentinels, some of the Reapers, arguably some Steel Rangers, that super-ghoul in Hightower, etc. etc. Those are just the examples off the top of my head. What's par for the course? Through superior fighting gumption, teamwork, and crazyness they're defeated despite their overwhelming power advantages. I think that the problem may be that the Legate appears to win simply because of his superior power, and that was certainly not Somber's intention.

So a couple sentences that didn't quite fit above: And I'd much rather we find out about the Legate's regenerative abilities through minor injuries rather than the Legate being so easily distracted as to get his neck severed. Also, btw, when the next chapter is published it really should have a very visible message near the top that the previous chapter had big and relevant changes to it so that everyone can go back and re-read the changed parts.

by O. Hinds Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:36 pm

Derpmind wrote:Also, btw, when the next chapter is published it really should have a very visible message near the top that the previous chapter had big and relevant changes to it so that everyone can go back and re-read the changed parts.

I'd rather we didn't (though it's up to Somber); instead (or possibly in addition to), I'll add a temporary (to be removed when 56 comes out?) note to the hub page.

by Meleagridis Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:42 pm

[quote="Overlong Analysis Cobalt"]

Overthepacific wrote:
I'm still not sure he's got anything like the powers he claims to have, tbh. What's been shown is pretty intense - nothing hard to deal with, given a bit of thought and effort, but not something you'd want to go hoof-to-hoof with - but based on what Somber said in the spoiler, I don't think I'd trust that he can do everything he says he can do, and certainly not without limits.

All aboard the Viti of Oz train! Next stop, unexpectedly sympathetic villains. Toot-toot. I'd forgive a lot if it turns out that he has none of the power he claims.

Overthepacific wrote:
Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:

What doesnt sit well with me is that all of the powers he displayed wouldve felt more at home in an ancient zebra legend instead of the actual battle. The worst part about it is that it couldve had the potential for a good enemy, albeit a bit unnecessary at this point in the story. Instead it simply turned into, and I hate to keep using this example, a dragon ball z fight scene where he pulls random, unforeseen and mystical powers seemingly out of nowhere. It makes me question why there was even a zebra army there, or why introduce this new villain arc when you were just trying to deal with lighthooves?

Overall it still doesnt feel like a good part of PH and it only seems to add to the everlasting conflicts that never seem to get resolved.

Well, if you'd care to take a step into the Viti of Oz tent, he needs robo-zebras because without them and the help of others he is completely powerless and at the mercy of his more powerful opponents.
The Lancer bash puts a dent in this theory, but I'm still with it.

Not sure if you've found it yet or not, but Somber spoiled something about the Legate a little while back. If you don't do spoilers, avoid the following.

Legate Spoilers:

O. Hinds wrote:
Have you considered that much of that may be that you're reading the chapters as they're released? The gaps over which you'd need to remember things would be much smaller reading it straight through.

But in a serial, which I have seen a few people argue PH is, should there be a need to read the thing in one sitting?

Snipehamster wrote:The whole 'anime' problem is that recently, those idiotic shonen are precisely what PH has begun to resemble. Ever-escalating power levels and absurd, sneering villains that render 90% of the ever-growing cast obsolete simply by existing (the Legate exemplifies this by casually one-shotting each of BJ's party one after another), backdropped by a main plot that moves at a glacial pace.

...?
I count one. Dawn planted her feet firmly in tragic monster territory like most of the baddies in PH. Sanguine, Lighthooves, and any other sneering characters are made of papier mache compared to Blackjack and all usually have a pants wetting moment when they realize the spanner they've invited into the room with them. Cognitum is too "ERROR GIVE IT TO ME ERROR ERROR" to string together a coherent sentence. And, as I've said, I'm still holding out hope for Vitiosus, too. Plus:

Legate Spoiler:

Now I've got problems with the Legate too, and I do think things would be more interesting if Blackjack's party was a little less invalidated (even if it meant that Blackjack stopped pulling super-pony feats and left the unbelievable durability to the tank), but you make it sound like Viti is the new standard when we've seen him once. Pre-revision, no less.

O. Hinds wrote:
Thank you for that lovely post and the feedback within it.

Thanks! I mean... you're welcome?

Overthepacific wrote: Why did she use a metal hoof that is in no part her flesh, instead of trying to open it with her mouth?

Simple answer: why not?
They usually just push open doors with whatever's on the end of their legs, why go biting it? Not a one told her that her cybernetics might mess with the test, and even if they did it wouldn't matter because of Life Bloom and P-21.

SilentCarto wrote:
Meleagridis wrote:Lancer’s rifle has batwings on it. Is that a zebra thing, like the talismans? Or is Lancer not above pilfering from old Lunar stores?
The batwing talisman produces a bubble of silence around him (tap to toggle.) He had that gun during the museum raid, though interestingly not during his assassination mission to Brimstone's Fall.

Aye, so we know what it does. But not where it's from. I know that Zebras have batwing candies that kirby themselves some air support, but why would they mark a silence gidget with bat wings? Unless it's the symbol of some clan or another, I think it's been liberated from some sort of LNR PLC or whatnot.

by Sindri Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:57 pm

swicked wrote:Question: What would you WANT the Legate to be like if he HAD to exist and HAD to have some form of special abilities in order to stand up to Blackjack? What should “the power of Caesar” be, let alone “the power of the stars” (if he were the eternal warrior)?

hrm... Well, I likely wouldn't have thought of the power of Caesar much at all; it just wasn't something that was on my mind until he brought it up. Going back to the Frank Horrigan analogue, the Fo2 Enclave's "perfect instrument of war" was a super mutant (but more so) filled with cybernetics, wrapped in power armor, and pumped full of all the combat drugs in the wasteland. Dawn's already pretty much dibsed the cyborg alicorn parts of that, but I think you could be pretty impressive with the remainder... so I'd likely keep the Eternal Warrior bit because that's definitely a huge part of plot, keep the dragonbone runic powerarmor because that's awesome, but instead of elemental control just play up the traditional zebra martial arts, then give him alchemic alterations that enhance those. We saw it a little bit with catching the tank shell, but for most of the fight he was relatively stationary. I'm thinking that when he seriously fights, he's fast. Turbo'd, all the time. Fast enough that he keeps moving when you go into SATS. Of course now that I know how Somber did it, I think her ideas are almost certainly better than mine.

Meleagridis wrote:The best zebra told us about him somewhere near the beginning when Blackjack asked about Rampage.

Really? I don't remember Xanthe talking about him much... Spike

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:00 pm

Meleagridis wrote:
Legate Spoilers:

Well, I know it now. I dont feel like it changes much. As far as Im concerned that legend shouldve stayed that way, with the new legate simply trying to live up to the title. What he is now is just downright ridiculous and should not have all of these mystical element commanding powers, its just so overpowered and silly, and a parody is something that PH isnt.

Overthepacific wrote: Why did she use a metal hoof that is in no part her flesh, instead of trying to open it with her mouth?

Simple answer: why not?
They usually just push open doors with whatever's on the end of their legs, why go biting it? Not a one told her that her cybernetics might mess with the test, and even if they did it wouldn't matter because of Life Bloom and P-21. [/quote]

Well I figured this door would need a certain biological sample, or even magic, when she first did it and thought it didnt work, I was all "YOUR HOOF IS METAL WHY DID YOU TRY THAT." But i dont know the interworkings of pre-war pony door technology, so maybe it wouldve worked. The world may never know.

by O. Hinds Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:04 pm

Swicked wrote:well, the Caesar was a relatively newly-created concept of the zebras at the time of the wonderbolt incident

…Um:

Somber wrote:Luna looked sympathetic. “You couldn’t have known the Caesar would take our rescue so personally.”

“I should have, Luna. I’ve ruled for a thousand years. His father was flexible. And his grandfather. He’s more in his great great grandfather’s demeanor.” Celestia sighed, shaking her head. “Sometimes it’s so hard keeping them all straight over the centuries. I thought the rescue a simple, elegant solution. I feared delay would kill the hostages. And now…having lost the Wonderbolts…”

I'm not really sure where you got the idea that it was a recent creation (I mean, relative to the age of the EoS, sure, but the same could be said about the Princesses, various mountains…). My rough timeline puts the office of the Caesar as having come into being about 1795 years before the start of the war (though that's to a good extent my headcanon).

As for what I'd like Vitiosus to be like... I'm not sure. The whole "Power of the Caesar" thing doesn't sit well with me in the form it's currently presented in. It just seems off (though not enough for me to register an official protest or anything), based on both my own ideas and things that I seem to remember Somber saying (though about that I may be wrong), for the Caesar to have such magic (and I don't really like the whole "elements" thing). I'd prefer the great magic (if any) granted to Legati Legionium (declension may be inaccurate) to be bestowed by the military and government, not loaned out from the Caesar's personal property. While an argument could be made that giving the Caesar sole authority to distribute such magic would curtail the ability of the military to overpower the civilian government, I would return that it also would make it very difficult and costly to stop a corrupt Caesar. Then again, I'm not sure how much of this is just differences in headcanon, what is "this could be done better" and what is "this isn't true for the Pax Roamana, but it's true for the Zebra Empire (or whatever Somber's version is called)". Zebras are a difficult area for me to make such calls on, as I have so many ideas of my own about them.

by Sindri Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:09 pm

swicked wrote:He didn't dodge Blackjack's sword, and yeah, he didn't dodge the tank shell.

I worked out the math on the tank shell, actually, and to move his hooves fast enough to catch it before it hit his face, he'd need to be Turbo'd and have a forelimb speed on par with an average major league baseball pitcher. And against the sword, he was busy blocking the chains of .50 cal rounds pointed at his head. In both cases, he took an apparent tactical disadvantage in order to avoid getting hit in the face. As if, say, getting his helmet knocked off would be troublesome.

by Sindri Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:10 pm

swicked wrote:@Hinds
I'm just confused, nevermind me.

I really could have sworn I read somewhere that the tribes had been divided and that their gathering together under a central flag was something that had only come about somewhat recently.

I guess I have no idea where I got that idea.

The Caesar had always been there as a mediator, an impartial negotiator type. The new thing was his becoming a military leader, the head of all tribes rather than the point through which they met.

by O. Hinds Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:11 pm

swicked wrote:
Sindri wrote:I'm thinking that when he seriously fights, he's fast. Turbo'd, all the time. Fast enough that he keeps moving when you go into SATS. Of course now that I know how Somber did it, I think her ideas are almost certainly better than mine.
...I don't think so, for some reason. He didn't dodge Blackjack's sword, and yeah, he didn't dodge the tank shell. I don't know if he'd be necessarily fast if he's been relying on immortality to survive hits for all these centuries. The dragon he fought to get the armor probably couldn't claw her way through his skin. Nothing short of Blackjack's star sword could do that... and even then, not all the way.
He just plain doesn't need to be fast. He's almost never needed to.

Effect and surprise. He stood there and took the hits to prove that he could stand there and take the hits (see Superman striking a dramatic pose so that gangsters can shoot at him pointlessly), and by not displaying his speed now (much; catching that tank shell wasn't really something that could be done without moving fast) he keeps it in reserve for when it is actually needed.

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:27 pm

swicked wrote:
Question: What would you WANT the Legate to be like if he HAD to exist and HAD to have some form of special abilities in order to stand up to Blackjack? What should “the power of Caesar” be, let alone “the power of the stars” (if he were the eternal warrior)?

Spoiler:

If I could have it my way, thatd be it. But I cant.

by Sindri Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:38 pm

Overthepacific wrote:[spoiler]I kinda touched on it earlier. I would want the Legate to be more like Lanius in New Vegas honestly.

But... the New Vegas Legate was such a pushover! Sure he was hell on any low-level troopers that came within striking distance, but he only took like three hits before dying, and he tried to run away after the first two shots! Now Horrigan, he punched deathclaws and Paladins in half and laughed in the face of plasma rifles...

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:41 pm

Sindri wrote:
Overthepacific wrote:[spoiler]I kinda touched on it earlier. I would want the Legate to be more like Lanius in New Vegas honestly.
But... the New Vegas Legate was such a pushover! Sure he was hell on any low-level troopers that came within striking distance, but he only took like three hits before dying, and he tried to run away after the first two shots! Now Horrigan, he punched deathclaws and Paladins in half...

Are you fucking with me here? I ran out of minigun and grenade launcher ammo trying to kill that guy, and he still killed boone. [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 9 920138312

[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 9 920138312

by Sindri Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:48 pm

Overthepacific wrote:Are you fucking with me here? I ran out of minigun and grenade launcher ammo trying to kill that guy, and he still killed boone.

Well there's your problem, you were using miniguns and grenade launchers on him. Try something with either decent penetration or a high crit rate. Melee weapons work great if you're carrying a decent one, or unarmed if you're good at it, and the AM rifle works wonders on any target shy of a deathclaw, though personally I've always been fond of Lucky... low-tier damage normally, but with the right perks you get a 95% crit rate outside VATS and by the sixth bullet everything in the room is dead.
But really, a swing or two with a super sledge and he runs like a little girl. Saddest thing I saw in that game by a wide margin.

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:54 pm

Sindri wrote:

I did use armor piercing rounds, that bastard has some hit points. It mightve been that I was playing on hard, or very hard, I cant remember, I havent played that game in forever.

Hell now I wanna go back and play it again so I can try to kill him.

by Sindri Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:14 pm

Overthepacific wrote:
Sindri wrote:

I did use armor piercing rounds, that bastard has some hit points. It mightve been that I was playing on hard, or very hard, I cant remember, I havent played that game in forever.

Hell now I wanna go back and play it again so I can try to kill him.

Lesse, a standard minigun deals 12 damage per shot and fires 20 times a second, full AP removes his armor entirely (assuming this was after patch 1.3.0.452) but reduces the damage by 5%, so you'd be dealing 228 per second, assuming steady fire and every shot hitting. He's got about 920 HP if you're decently levelled, so you'd need to consistently hit with every shot for just over four full seconds and spend about 81 rounds of AP 5mm. And that's without the high speed motor option, which would reduce the time taken to barely three and a quarter seconds. Plus time spent spinning up your oversized gun. Now, given both his own aversion to being aimed at and the fact that he'll strike potentially five times with the Blade of the East during that, we can safely assume that at least half of your shots miss and a significant time was spent quaffing healing items, but as a lone target he's still not much of a threat until he closes and unless you have no melee capability.

And the aforementioned running like a little girl should be a significant factor in this threat assessment, because you only really need to take away about 2/3 of his health before the fight is over.

Oh, unless you were trying to do the whole fight in VATS? Then you'd need to put about 9-11 bursts into him, for a total of 270-330 action points, which would take a lot of running around and recharging...

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:24 pm

Sindri wrote:

That fight was spent trying to get at him and the legion drones around him, I had something like 500 bullets walking into the camp after the bridge, with him running around and swatting at me every time I tried to reload, It got a little frustrating. No it wasnt after the patch, but im not sure if that really made a difference.

I dont know about you, but he kept fighting until that last grenade went off, and once I switched to the grenade launcher was the only time I actually used vats. Keep in mind I wasnt anywhere near level 50 at the time so the whole ordeal was pretty tough.

by Sindri Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:31 pm

Overthepacific wrote:
Sindri wrote:

That fight was spent trying to get at him and the legion drones around him, I had something like 500 bullets walking into the camp after the bridge, with him running around and swatting at me every time I tried to reload, It got a little frustrating. No it wasnt after the patch, but im not sure if that really made a difference.

I dont know about you, but he kept fighting until that last grenade went off, and once I switched to the grenade launcher was the only time I actually used vats. Keep in mind I wasnt anywhere near level 50 at the time so the whole ordeal was pretty tough.

Aye, the Praetorians are a bitch and a half to deal with at the same time. But I don't think any of them scale higher than level 30, and if you're much lower his health goes down to 845 and his weapon skills drop... slightly.

But yeah, if he drops below 60% health he starts taking healing powders and below 40% he just gives up and runs away to heal. But he is faster than you, his limbs automatically uncripple when he decides to run, and his sword has a high knockdown chance. I guess every time I killed him easily it was because he fought me alone (Speech is magic) and I dealt the killing blows fast enough to not allow recovery.

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:37 pm

Sindri wrote:Aye, the Praetorians are a bitch and a half to deal with at the same time. But I don't think any of them scale higher than level 30, and if you're much lower his health goes down to 845 and his weapon skills drop... slightly.

But yeah, if he drops below 60% health he starts taking healing powders and below 40% he just gives up and runs away to heal. But he is faster than you, his limbs automatically uncripple when he decides to run, and his sword has a high knockdown chance. I guess every time I killed him easily it was because he fought me alone (Speech is magic) and I dealt the killing blows fast enough to not allow recovery.

Man I went in there guns blazing. But yeah, this is how I wanted to envision PH legate sortof. A great leader with very adept combat prowess and strength, that is very hard to kill, but nowhere near impossible.

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:16 pm

swicked wrote:I wouldn't want him to just be adept at fighting. Given the power of zebra alchemy, I'd want to see what happens when a zebra decides to modify their own body to the extreme. Something unnatural, at the very least.
The strongest 100% normal doesn't stand much of a chance, hoof to hoof or melee, against Blackjack.

In my eyes, the only thing that should really be unnatural is strength and ability. Maybe something with the regeneration, anything else would only serve to bring it back into the over the top mystical power spectrum again.

by Sindri Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:33 pm

Overthepacific wrote:
swicked wrote:I wouldn't want him to just be adept at fighting. Given the power of zebra alchemy, I'd want to see what happens when a zebra decides to modify their own body to the extreme. Something unnatural, at the very least.
The strongest 100% normal doesn't stand much of a chance, hoof to hoof or melee, against Blackjack.

In my eyes, the only thing that should really be unnatural is strength and ability. Maybe something with the regeneration, anything else would only serve to bring it back into the over the top mystical power spectrum again.

Chems would be a significant factor. A singe dose of Turbo (or whatever the pony equivalent was called) basically triples your speed and reaction time briefly, and ponies on it (in the Hydra-making facility in one of the early chapters) were described as fast enough to still move visibly in SATS. Combine that with zebra martial arts? A dose each of med-X and Stampede, with a garnish of Hydra? And since he's got access to high end zebra alchemy, the kind that gives you permanent augmentation akin to cybernetics, and you'd have a very dangerous fighter indeed.

Probably still not fast enough to dodge a tank shell at close range tho, so he'd still need the dragon armor to face the likes of Mega-Deus and live. You need a lot more speed to get your center of mass out of the way than your hooves in front of it, and it's difficult to accelerate by more than about a G with just feet on level ground.

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:46 pm

Sindri wrote:You need a lot more speed to get your center of mass out of the way than your hooves in front of it, and it's difficult to accelerate by more than about a G with just feet on level ground.

I find dodging it more realistic than catching it. Stopping the momentum of the round while somehow not having every bone in his forelegs shattered is unbelievable, getting out of the way as it gets fired seems to be a much less ridiculous alternative, all things considered.

by Overthepacific Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:51 pm

swicked wrote:
Thicker hide (can shrug off small arms fire... I mean, Blackjack's been able to do that for quite a while, now), immunity to any form of disease or poison, teeth like razors, bones like steel, eyes that can follow any movement and can help him break through spells (I, too, think it'd be cool if he could move during SATS, but I think it would be more like how people with magic can move when you stop time in the game Dishonored... namely, some people are just capable of ignoring such spells, they aren't moving so fast they don't matter). In fact, a general resistance to most magic. He would be crazy flexible and impossible to grapple. Can't move quicker than the eye, but still faster than most people can easily track.
And, to top it all off, some kinda weird color scheme.

I'm thinking, basically, he'd be a witcher.

Maybe if he was secretly a robot or something. Theres being a difficult enemy, and then theres being just plain overpowered.

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