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[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overlong Analysis Cobalt on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:10 am

Caoimhe wrote:You know, I'm kinda surprised in FoE/PH/etc that there never was another pony religion that started. You'd think with the princesses dead, ponies would start to seek divine guidance elsewhere. Sure we got the whole Zebra thing but with utter chaos everywhere including physical gods that failed, wouldn't some ponies turn elsewhere or deny the divinity of the princesses as a result?
Well, we know that at the very least Calamity was an "atheist" of sorts, and I got the impression that that was at least common enough; Pip's stable religion was sort of weird, from what I remember. For my part, I've always been interested in the religion of the Goddess - before she started sending out alicorns and working with Red Eye, she had her preachers or whatever, if you recall that one the party encountered while first meeting Gawd.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by OneMoreDaySK on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:44 am

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a stable out there with some odd religion quirks as the modification.

Re: Snipehamster thing
You're welcome here, and I don't see anyone really making snips at ya. I must be blind to it or something. Or just too tired.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:12 am

Welp, I went in the 4chan thread and spoiled the ending of pink eyes.
I regret nothing Spike

Not on topic, I know, but hey... you mess with somber? You get pink eyes spoilers.
That's equitable, right?

Edit:
Not that I suspect anyone will see this, but the above is a joke. I DID post Pink Eyes spoilers on there, but it was really just because it was a funny troll... I'm not the type to defend people from internet hate. I've always been more the type to simply cause it :P

Funny fact: They picked up that I posted this immediately and a bunch of 'em called me underage.
I'm not sure how that qualifies as an insult.

These 4channers are not very good at witty repartee, huh?


Last edited by swicked on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by StoneSlinger88 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:22 am

swicked wrote:Welp, I went in the 4chan thread and spoiled the ending of pink eyes.
I regret nothing Spike

Not on topic, I know, but hey... you mess with somber? You get pink eyes spoilers.
That's equitable, right?

It's better than my idea of driving an M1070 through their front door.

Knock knock, motherbucker. Roid Rage
Spoiler:
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Snipehamster on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:56 am

To clarify a few things that came up in the past few posts, in no particular order:

The IRC screenshots that I posted were of a public channel. I'm not going to share private communication, because that would be disrespectful to Somber, would blow the issue out of proportion, and would spoil a good portion of PH's ending for everyone.

I offered criticisms and suggestions on a number of levels, ranging from "let's go back and refine the story for the sake of brevity and to remove clutter" to "do we really need a zebra warlord with super-alicorn grade elemental magic?" and "is [Stuff] really a good idea?". At no point did I make demands; I expressed my opinion, backed it up with my reasoning, and the end result of this was the conversation I linked.

Bottom line: if my opinion is volatile enough, or Somber fragile enough, that a meeting of the two results in real life emotional breakdowns and threats of suicide, I'll be keeping that opinion to myself.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:13 am

Snipehamster wrote:I offered criticisms and suggestions on a number of levels, ranging from "let's go back and refine the story for the sake of brevity and to remove clutter" to "do we really need a zebra warlord with super-alicorn grade elemental magic?" and "is [Stuff] really a good idea?".
Yeah, but given how the story's progressed, I can't see much of what you suggested be removed as anything that could be changed on the fly. I agree with several of your opinions but I think, at best, all that can be done is to minimize any elements that detract from the story as anything more would require rewrites that would be very difficult to establish without putting the story on hold. Somber's already admitted to cutting a lot out already, including anything more done with the Society (if I read her right), so some work has definitely already been done to conform the story more toward your ideal.

...actually, based on what you DO know, what do you think could just be cut right now? There's been a lot of foreshadowing of the legate, so I don't know if he could really just disappear entirely without leaving loose ends, but maybe he could have not had magic powers, I guess?

Because yeah, the Goddess and Lacunae's plot lines are pretty much unavoidable for the near future, whatever your opinion of them.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Snipehamster on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:35 am

I'm not going to rehash my discussion with Somber here, so I'll keep this brief.

Honestly, I do think that putting the story on hold for the sake of revision would be wise. That would give the upcoming conclusion a firmer foundation. I use the Goddess as an example because the Goddess/Lacunae/Psalm subplot barely connects to the central narrative of BJ's adventure, while contributing enormously to the wordcount and angst level. My opinion of Psalm has also dropped immensely given her penchant for killing canon characters left and right, and Lacunae's primary role seems to be drifting more and more towards 'magic ex machina' whenever the party or a member thereof faces certain death.

Now that I know the extent of their purpose in the story, I do not believe that the Legate or the Remnant are nescessary. And in particular, the Legate's elemental powers and the origin of the cyberzebras are absurd.

Setting aside all that, and any chance of retroactive changes, my recommendation for the future would be the same as it has been for a while: to cut down on angst, power creep, overcomplication and so on across the board and focus on telling the story. To his credit, Somber has been doing this.

Icy Shake makes some good points on the previous page. The only thing I'd outright disagree with is that it's a good idea to cram so much worldbuilding into one story. There comes a point where you simply have to get on with the narrative. If they absolutely must be part of the world PH's less vital worldbuilding elements could be broken down into a series of short fics to supplement the main story (the Hoofington Mythos? x3), allowing the story itself more breathing room.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:07 am

Snipehamster wrote:I'm not going to rehash my discussion with Somber here, so I'll keep this brief.
I see where you're coming from, and in another work I'd almost definitely agree. There's a lot of Project Horizons that isn't required to tell the core narrative. But I don't think that's the point. The core narrative has always seemed to take a back seat to the world, the factions, the atmosphere, and above all the characters and their personal development. That's what makes PH feel less like a storybook and more... real.

The simple (and horribly inadequate, but the best I can think of at the moment) comparison is Fallout 3 versus Fallout: New Vegas. Fallout 3 is a good story, with some stuff on the side, and it was a lot of fun to play. New Vegas had a short, weak 'main quest,' but I've had more fun and spent more time in that game than in any other video game since Morrowind because it feels like a living world; you aren't the protagonist of a prewritten story, you're dropped in the middle of the Mohave after the stage is set and allowed to do with it as you will. Fallout: Equestria was a story, of the Stable Dweller's rise from running away from her Stable up through her winning a war, toppling two armies, and taking control of the weather of the wasteland; I liked it a lot, and it was damn good at being a story, but that's all it ever was. Project Horizons is Blackjack's life, with all the tears, laughter, blood, and whiskey that involves, and the lives of all the ponies she touches along the way. Yeah, you could go from her running out of 99 through the rise and/or fall of Hoofington in half the pages we've done so far, with no fluff, a minimum of emotion, and a third of the characters. And it would be a damn good story. But it wouldn't be Project Horizons, and I would like it instead of loving it. PH isn't a bundle of tired tropes with a new paintjob. It's not a sequence of events from a known start to a known finish. It's a place and a bunch of people, interacting realistically, and that's why so many of us gather here to try to figure things out, analyze the people involved, and try to figure out what happens next.

And now that it's started along this path, I think revisions would be the worst option (short of just abandoning the whole thing). Everything interconnects and influences everything else, to the point where changing something relatively small wouldn't be an edit to the offending chapter, it would probably require rewriting the whole thing from the beginning as a similar but distinct story. Like they did with Past Sins, after finishing the first version.

Is the work as written perfect? Hell no. Are there things that should maybe not have been introduced in the first place, or directions it might have been better not to go? Almost certainly. But changing it now, or cutting it short wouldn't fix things, it would just kill most of what's there now. And there's a lot of awesome there now.


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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:12 am

To be perfectly honest, I've never liked Lacunae. For all the time she's been around I still have only the vaguest grasp of her character. She just sticks in the background all the time, knowing little about what is going on, lending heavy weapons, healing spells, teleportation and... really, that's it.

Somber never made me care about her... not for a single instant. She doesn't really try. When she gets hurt, she just falls down. When she excels, she ends up channeling the goddess or quoting someone else (occasionally breaking fourth walls). Her personality just seems so vapid I've never gotten a grasp on it. I wish someone could explain to me who she is beyond some emo vulcan or whatever. What she's passionate about, what she'd fight for, who she really is. As it stands, whether or not the "true" Lacunae comes out with the Goddess' fall, I just don't care. She's been around forever as a nothing, sticking about (I suppose) just because the goddess told her to.

I feel like I've said this before, though.

I like the rest of the characters, basically. I mean, I dislike Glory, but it's because of who she is, not her characterization.
I just don't get Lacunae. I've never felt like there was anything TO get.

Edit:
I dunno if you're aware of it, snipe, but I've been writing these outtake-like things about PH for a while. I intentionally try to get roughly even coverage of all the characters in as many combinations as possible, but when it comes to Lacunae, I'd be surprised if I've written more than four or five things with her. After all this time, I still don't know her enough to know how she'd interact with any of the others. It's weird.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:20 am

swicked wrote:To be perfectly honest, I've never liked Lacunae. For all the time she's been around I still have only the vaguest grasp of her character. She just sticks in the background all the time, knowing little about what is going on, lending heavy weapons, healing spells, teleportation and... really, that's it... Her personality just seems so vapid I've never gotten a grasp on it... She's been around forever as a nothing, sticking about (I suppose) just because the goddess told her to... I just don't get Lacunae. I've never felt like there was anything TO get.
So you're saying she's a
wiktionary wrote:Noun
lacuna (plural lacunae or lacunas)
A small opening; a small pit or depression; a small blank space; a gap or vacancy; a hiatus.
An absent part, especially in a book or other piece of writing, often referring to an ancient manuscript or similar.
(microscopy) A space visible between cells, allowing free passage of light.
(linguistics) A language gap, which occurs when there is no direct translation in the target language for a lexical term found in the source language
Sorry.
But yeah, she's a subtle one, with the personality mostly shining through in patches from behind the façade of emotionlessness, obedience, lack of self-worth, etc. I wish I could explain her to you, but what I have are feelings and impressions and those are really hard to put to words...
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:23 am

...I know. I looked up the word a long time ago. I got that she's supposed to act like that.
But it's more of a problem than a faithful characterization. She could have been this way for a chapter or two and it would have been okay, but it's been far longer than that.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Valikdu on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:29 am

I know that this argument could sound wrong, after some recent events, but:

Somber has his own artistic vision.

Saying that he should do something like what Penstroke did (that is, butcher his own story because people said he should) is denying him his vision.

That's not a good thing.

Also, Sindri's large post above makes good points about the good things in PH's storytelling, so I'll just defer to that because I couldn't have said it better.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:44 am

swicked wrote:...I know. I looked up the word a long time ago. I got that she's supposed to act like that.
But it's more of a problem than a faithful characterization. She could have been this way for a chapter or two and it would have been okay, but it's been far longer than that.
Well, she almost always looks like an empty spot, at least on the surface, but it's a mask, and act, a part she plays rather than who she is, even if she's managed to convince herself that it's reality. I don't find the mask particularly interesting or likable either. I like who I've glimpsed behind that mask, but I don't have enough solid info to really describe her.

Valikdu wrote:I know that this argument could sound wrong, after some recent events, but:

Somber has his own artistic vision.

Saying that he should do something like Penstroke did (that is, butcher his own story because people said he should) is denying him his vision.
...
bluh.
On one hoof, you're absolutely right. On the other, it's kind of the editor's job to do so, almost. They take what streams out of the artist and refine it; a rough piece becomes smoother, flaws are worked out, continuity that might not have been straight in the author's mind is worked out, etc. Minor aspects which might harm more significant ones are brought up and suggestions are made to fit them, and while the author should still have control over where the story goes the editors advise, warn, and generally help it to be great. Pretty much all authors consider what comes out of the editing room to be better than what was originally written, a cleaner form of the original vision. The problem usually comes, I think, when an editor gets a different impression of where the focus is or which aspects of the story are most significant, or when somebody thinks somebody else is making a mistake and they can't come to an agreement. It's rarely really anybody's fault, and it's always tragic.

As easy as it would be to just say Snipe is wrong, or that these things should not be said, or that Somber is always right? That's just not true, or at least nowhere near that simple. I don't know exactly what happens in the editing sessions, or who contributes what, but Somber has always been grateful for the editors' assistance as far as I know. And after reading her work before and after getting editors, the difference is huge and pretty much entirely positive. I disagree with Snipehamster on a lot of things and I don't know if either of us will ever come around, but I'm pretty sure that his work has made the whole story better for everyone in the past and I know if he drops out it'll be missed greatly.

An editor's help is a wonderful thing. An editor's meddling is painful for all involved. The line between the two is so very hard to see, and nobody seems to agree where it goes.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:50 am

Sindri wrote:*stuff that I agree with*

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:09 am

swicked wrote:
Sindri wrote:*stuff that I agree with*
Well, since I seem to be on a roll with regard to saying things without making an arse of myself tonight...

Snipehamster, I would like to formally apologize to you for something. I would specify, but every time I try to do so it starts to sound like I'm trying to be passive aggressive or something, and when I push too hard my brain starts to sabotage itself, and then I break down and avoid contact with the forum for three days, so I think it's best to just leave it as this:
I'm sorry for my unspecified but probably somewhat assholish thoughts, words, and/or actions targeted at or near you within the last month.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Snipehamster on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:13 am

No offense taken, Sindri.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by WovenTales on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:47 am

I'm mostly just rehashing old arguments here, but I wanted to get my thoughts down, and they are definitely influenced by those earlier posts.

I do see what you're saying, Snipehamster. And in different circumstances I might agree with you. Most stories should be more tightly plotted—I know I've heard the advice that every point should either work towards progressing the story or fleshing out the characters, and that the latter should be integrated into the former as much as possible. Project Horizons definitely doesn't follow that. Characters pop up repeatedly who don't seem to have any ultimate purpose, Lacunae among them. Entire scenes could be cut and the plot and characters wouldn't really loose anything. Just about every single memory orb could be condensed into a total of a couple paragraphs—a chapter at most—and we wouldn't be missing anything critical.

Thing is, it's all absolutely necessary.

Project Horizons includes as much as it does because it isn't following the traditional model. It's not a book, or even a series. It's a serialized story, of the type that would have been published a chapter every month in a magazine. To use TV as an analogue, it's a miniseries (Wikipedia says "serial" for the non-Americans) rather than a traditional show (Pink Eyes) or even a movie (Fallout: Equestria). Think the second and third seasons of The Walking Dead (individually), but a larger scale. Everything happens for a purpose, but each particular event might not tie back to the story until several episodes later.

Now, I'm going to make an assumption about something I don't really have any right to. Sorry about that. But, Snipehamster, I'd guess that you aren't particularly fond of Homestuck? That shares very little with PH, but it does have a similar pattern of plot development: we see something that seems to be mostly insignificant, but with just enough relevance to the current action that we don't think anything of its presence. Then, a couple hundred—or even thousand—pages later, that turns into a major plot point. Or, with more relevance to current events, something happens that seems completely crazy, but if we're patient, it gets explained later with perfectly logical (within the world) reasoning. I know that (Homestuck spoiler) the Pesterchum trolls turning out to be actual trolls came out of left field when I first read it, but now he's shown us that they do fit in, and I wouldn't be able to imagine that story without them. I have a feeling the Legate is the same thing.

What I'm trying to say is that that model is anything but a streamlined plot. Plenty of asides are left in, or even made the focus of that week's episode. We have a huge list of plot threads, and most of them aren't resolved until quite some time after they're introduced. None of that number should be left dangling, even if it can get difficult at times to keep every strand straight, but what we wind up with is more akin to a rope than needlepoint. Standard guidelines of plot development might possibly be able to be applied to the various plotlines, but they fail when we try to use them on any larger scale. And at that scale, the world itself becomes something of a character itself rather than simply a canvas, and as such is able to be explored and developed in the same detail as any secondary character. That is how the Marauders, Gorgon's mine, and even the entire Remnant fit in. Not because they serve a role to the plot that can't be given to anything else, but because they make the world come to life.

When I said that I would probably agree with you in different circumstances, that is what I was talking about. If we think Somber were trying to write this following a book format, she would be having a bit of trouble keeping things in check. But she's not. PH is a serial, and trying to make it fit into the same set of rules is never going to work out. It wouldn't be a bad story either way—I'd read Project Horizons: The Book as happily as I read Project Horizons: The Serial, and it would actually probably feel a lot like Murky Number Seven. But it wouldn't be the same story. We'd be following the legend of Blackjack, not living the wasteland through her perspective. Your advice may be good, Snipehamster, but—and I'm not wanting to sound like a jerk here—it doesn't completely work with the way Project Horizons is written. And I completely failed at saying that nicely. Sorry!

Some people come into this expecting the tight plot of most books. Some of them wind up not being able to like what it has turned out to be. I don't blame them, but neither can I sympathize with them. Project Horizons is what it is, and I don't think it's fair to complain about it not fitting the conventions of what it isn't. This isn't directed at anyone in particular (not even you, Snipehamster), but it's something that quite a number of people—anywhere, not talking specifically about here—seem to have trouble with. Judge the story on its own terms, not those common among others. They won't fit if you do.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:20 am

WovenTales wrote:I'm mostly just rehashing old arguments here, but I wanted to get my thoughts down, and they are definitely influenced by those earlier posts...
And now I know what people are talking about when they tell me that I said what they were trying to but more eloquently.
Thank you! Dash clapping
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Snipehamster on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:22 am

Woven Tales: I see where you're coming from, and do agree with you in principle.

PH's length is something of an issue for me. Not because I think that the story should be shorter - though that would help - but because I see it as a symptom of a larger problem. That problem being that the proliferation of plots and subplots means that certain elements are drawn out to the point of absurdity and tedium (ie. power creep, BJ angst, revisionism of FoE), while other events - including those that would have enough impact to fuel entire stories elsewhere - are handwaved away or given contrived solutions (ie. Glory's lost wing, Scotch's phobias).

The story's length is a peripheral issue that stems from it being overcomplicated and unfocused, which has lead to a downward spiral of narrative quality. This was the thrust of my criticisms presented to Somber. Going back and trimming the fat would be a first step to re-railing things.

Trying to tell a dozen stories at once simply doesn't work. PH as a whole is suffering from what the individual characters did in Hightower: too many diverse elements fighting for attention, each a special snowflake in their own right, which leads to none of them getting the love and attention that they deserve from the writer or the readers.

That was for clarification. Now that I'm no longer an editor I'm not going to argue these points any more, for the sake of keeping the peace. But there you go. That's my problem in a nutshell.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:04 am

Snipehamster wrote:The story's length is a peripheral issue that stems from it being overcomplicated and unfocused... Trying to tell a dozen stories at once simply doesn't work.
And I believe this is the core of the difference in our opinions. I don't consider a lack of focus or an extreme of complication to be a problem, and I know of dozens of works in which dozens or scores of stories have been told simultaneously and worked.

If I may be forgiven for switching to the anime side of the street for a moment, the first examples to come to mind are Baccano! and Durarara!!. Both are very complicated, and have turned away those looking for simple entertainment because of it. Both slip into non-linear storytelling, with effects shown before cause and sometimes even slipping between time periods at a whim. Both have dozens of engaging, deep characters, each with their own unrelated goals, emotions, hopes, dreams, motivations, and flaws. And both show you what happens when all the plots and schemes from all these characters begin to collide, and what first seems like scattered nonsense becomes a massive, intricate, coherent epic over the course of a dozen episodes.

Homestuck, as WovenTales mentioned, is another perfect example. In terms of raw page count it is the longest webcomic in existance, but most of those pages contain multiple pages worth of text, some are videos up to twenty minutes in length, and some are flash games taking over two hours to complete. At this time, there are twenty core protagonists, plus their alternate-timeline selves, clones, ghosts, etc. each of which is fully fleshed out. Their adventures span multiple universes and time travel is an integral part of the setting. Their primary antagonist has manipulated events from before his birth to cause himself to exist in a way which has not yet been fully revealed, but has been hinted at since the first act, and the other antagonists are numerous enough that his name was not even mentioned until the second act of the fifth act (don't ask) outside of an offhand mention during the apparently (at the time) unrelated intermission after the fourth act. One of the oldest jokes in the fandom is that every scene in Homestuck makes perfect sense in context, but the context may not arrive until two years later. For all this it is considered one of the most brilliant works of literature in our generation, and has a dedicated fandom of, at a minimum, roughly twelve million people.

And for an example that most of you might actually be familiar with, Babylon 5? Each episode carried threads from a dozen storylines in addition to its own focus, leading to one of the deepest and most realistic shows on television that I'm aware of. Generally referred to as a five year long miniseries more than an ongoing episodic program.

These things work because they don't try to focus. Because life isn't a series of scripted event all moving toward a single story. Because people don't always move toward continuation of a plot.
Once you abandon "storybook logic" and let things just develop as they do, the characters are much deeper and more relatable, the world feels more realistic, the stories become unpredictable and complex instead of the traditional linear slogs, and at least to me the whole thing just becomes much more interesting. I like complexity. I like realism. I like when every person feels like a person instead of some feeling like heroes, some feeling like supports, and some feeling like terrain. I like things that force me to think, instead of just viewing passively.
And I love Somber mostly because she seems to be better at that than anyone else I've had the fortune to read so far.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ketchup on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:24 am

Everyone has already said it, but I'll go and say it anyway.

Project Horizons is complicated, intertwined, and deep. The story is about Blackjack, what happens around her, and how it effects those around her. Littlepip's story is about Littlepip, with less(though quite sufficient) focus on the rest of the picture and characters. That's all fun and dandy, and while it is a good story, it's a different kind of story when compared to PH.

I like the scope, the vastness, the mystery. Even when I find myself blanking on past events in the story itself or what is talked about here, I enjoy the thinking that comes with it. It's sort of like Dwarf Fortress, it doesn't serve you enjoyment, you make it yourself with what you are given.
That analogy is probably really flawed, but it works for me.

Removing 'unnecessary' pieces of PH would change it, as it is a sum of its parts. Everything seems to work dynamically to create the story's progression instead of a singular driving force.
That probably makes no sense outside of my head, either.

Of course, this is all opinion. Almost everything said here as of late is opinion. Opinions are a difference between all people, and it's interesting to see them react with another in the various ways that it can occur. Kept civil, of course.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:59 am

SilentCarto wrote:I don't recall any, though Pip didn't spend much time in the class of settlements where you might find such things. She probably could have found some in the slaver bar in Filly if she was looking, but she never went in there.
I imagine that there'd also be some in Tenpony. They'd be discreetly hidden away, though, and she didn't go looking.

Caoimhe wrote:You know, I'm kinda surprised in FoE/PH/etc that there never was another pony religion that started. You'd think with the princesses dead, ponies would start to seek divine guidance elsewhere. Sure we got the whole Zebra thing but with utter chaos everywhere including physical gods that failed, wouldn't some ponies turn elsewhere or deny the divinity of the princesses as a result?
Hm... that could be interesting, yes.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:01 am

Snipehamster wrote:That was for clarification. Now that I'm no longer an editor I'm not going to argue these points any more, for the sake of keeping the peace.
Okay, so you've officially resigned now?

(I'm more or less trying to stay out of this, save for upvoting a few posts, for fear of making things worse.)
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Snipehamster on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:02 am

Okay, so you've officially resigned now?

(I'm more or less trying to stay out of this, save for upvoting a few posts, for fear of making things worse.)
Yes. I sent an email to you, Somber and Bronode with the same explanation I posted here.

Others: I understand the "it's BJ's life" argument. But when 80% of BJ's life consists of killing, crying about killing, getting maimed and crying about getting maimed (from various perspectives and in various contexts), not everyone is going to want to follow it for longer than two Lord of the Rings trilogies (which PH is fast approaching, length-wise).

Anyway. Shutting up now.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by OneMoreDaySK on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:08 am

Can't really add much to the Snipehamster discussion. Sorry.

Re: Lacunae
Well at this point she keeps suppressing herself and hiding in Unity, but when Trixie blows up maybe she'll get more character, if she doesn't outright just die? I mean, she'll have to deal with the loss of a second (pseudo) Goddess.

Re: Blackjack's Life
What I kinda wanna see is hints of characters doing other things without the need for her to be directly involved. Like wouldn't it be nice if Paradise Falls got freed by just the Sand Dogs and Hellhounds alone? Or we get to see notes or a transmission on what is going on with Whisper or Xanthe? It's kinda what bothers me about the original storyline, with the stories from Homage being only about LittlePip.

Shutting up now.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:27 am

Well, it looks like a few people said about what I did (wanted and tried to, anyway) on the last page, but better, so good job on introducing more eloquence and clarity to that subject than I could. Oh, and I can't believe I didn't think to use the Homestuck comparison.

Caoimhe wrote:You know, I'm kinda surprised in FoE/PH/etc that there never was another pony religion that started. You'd think with the princesses dead, ponies would start to seek divine guidance elsewhere. Sure we got the whole Zebra thing but with utter chaos everywhere including physical gods that failed, wouldn't some ponies turn elsewhere or deny the divinity of the princesses as a result?

Well, my understanding is that the deification of the Princesses was, largely, a post-apocalyptic occurrence: the majority of the population didn't see them as gods or worship them before or during the war.

There's the Goddess, of course (and there there is a deity), and as OAC said, she was building a religion around herself.
The Harbingers probably qualify as well.

In any case, I do think that other ethea fill the role without the adherence to belief in gods.

The core of the Enclave is, basically, Nazis--with WIIIIINNGSSSS, and we really haven't seen much of the rest apart from Thunderhead.
Likewise, Stable 101, had a similar dynamic going on, but with Earth Ponies and Technology.
The griffons have their contract society, which I'll admit, I might have expected to be rethought a little after the war, but there you have it.
The Steel Rangers (or at least some of the higher ups) turned out to be a double-apocalyptic cult, intending to store technology to rebuild society after the raiders, slavers, and scavengers all killed each other.
The Twilight Society, for its part, seems like it would be institutionally disinclined to go religious, being the remnants of Twilight's ministry. And I'd expect that they would try to keep other organizing forces with cross purposes out of Manehattan, or at least Tenpony Tower.

Overall, besides these, I'm not that surprised that there don't really seem to be many religions in the Wasteland, at least among the ponies. I actually think of the development of the cult of the Princesses as a little unexpected, but understandable. I guess my line of thought turns back to the point that my understanding of pre-megaspell Equestria as largely atheist, for two reasons: why would atheism need to be reevaluated in the wake of a mortal-induced armageddon; and ghouls provide cultural continuity.


Last edited by Icy Shake on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by AGurdel on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:36 am

The simple (and horribly inadequate, but the best I can think of at the
moment) comparison is Fallout 3 versus Fallout: New Vegas. Fallout 3 is a
good story, with some stuff on the side, and it was a lot of fun to
play. New Vegas had a short, weak 'main quest,' but I've had more fun
and spent more time in that game than in any other video game since
Morrowind because it feels like a living world

Its the same with Gothic 1/2 vs. Gothic 3 but more extreme. Gothic 1 and 2 have some side quests at the start of the game to introduce characters and the world and after that there is a quite linear (and fun) story. Gothic 3 is the other way around. The first 90% of the game you have to do side quests to get strong enough to start the main quest, but then I somewhat lost the drive to complete it.

I dont know if there is a official name for it, but I call it "side quest fatigue". Its problem with most open world games and imo all Bethesda titles (I played) suffer from it. Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 3 and NV. A lot of these side-quests are fun and world-building, but they dont do anything productive storywise and most of the time they simply dont matter.

There is a third type of quest and thats the one that is the dominant part of PH imo: The side-track quest. Its a side quest you have to finish to advance the main quest. A good example would be the satellite dish quest in Fallout 3 you have to do for Three Dog. These also contribute to the side quest fatigue if there are to much of them.

I understand that a lot of people think differently (there wouldn't be as much Bethesda fans out there), but I like it if a story is driven by the main quest. Side and side-track quests are fun and most of the novels I read (which would be mostly Battletech) dont have enough of them, but they should not take over.

I love PH and the way its written, but there is some side quest fatigue buildup and I sometimes have problems to remember what the status of the main quest is.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Snipehamster on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:40 am

Overall, besides these, I'm not that surprised that there don't really
seem to be many religions in the Wasteland, at least among the ponies. I
actually think of the development of the cult of the Princesses as a
little unexpected, but understandable. I guess my line of thought turns
back to the point that my understanding of pre-megaspell Equestria as
largely atheist, for two reasons: why would atheism need to be
reevaluated in the wake of a mortal-induced armageddon; and ghouls
provide cultural continuity.
I'd like to see the cult of the Princesses explored more, honestly. It's easy to see the deification of Celestia and Luna (and Cadance? ...and Twilight??) occuring in the wake of the bombs: they exemplified Equestria at its best, and yearning for that lost glory could quickly turn to reverence.

How might news of Celestia's survival (and the circumstances thereof) impact such a belief system?


Last edited by Snipehamster on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Retl on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:41 am

I'm reminded of a chart that shows the main conflict being supported by a lot of smaller conflicts and resolutions under it that all make that big one go in the first place. Unfortunately, I do not have that chart.

But if an author wants to present other happenings in the story as side-stories or alt/bonus chapters, they have the option to do so as long as they live.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Caoimhe on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:51 am

Re: The editor's job

You know such major changes usually happen when the story is complete or in the case of writer's block. At least this is the case in publishing. Fanfiction is a unique situation, particularly in PH's case because there is actually an unusually strong disconnect between the author and his editors. Somber, for his own reasons didn't reveal the entire story beginning to end to anyone (as far as I know) and while that puts the editors at a disadvantage, that's up to him.

What I'm saying is, if you guys (editors and Somber) were being paid by a publisher, things would be a lot different. If everyone involved in the story that's not Somber knew more vital details, the internal complaints would hold more weight. Somber is purposely holding onto a sense of artistic secrecy that makes this more difficult to work with, but it should be expected since this is the longest work of fanfiction ever - a medium that's entirely nonstandard and relatively new.

I'm very aloof right now due to a sudden snowstorm so I hope the point comes across. Basically the criticism would hold much more validity if the story was complete and editors knew everything that was going to happen much more clearly.
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