Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by Snipehamster Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:13 pm

Caoimhe wrote:Re: The editor's job

You know such major changes usually happen when the story is complete or in the case of writer's block. At least this is the case in publishing. Fanfiction is a unique situation, particularly in PH's case because there is actually an unusually strong disconnect between the author and his editors. Somber, for his own reasons didn't reveal the entire story beginning to end to anyone (as far as I know) and while that puts the editors at a disadvantage, that's up to him.

What I'm saying is, if you guys (editors and Somber) were being paid by a publisher, things would be a lot different. If everyone involved in the story that's not Somber knew more vital details, the internal complaints would hold more weight. Somber is purposely holding onto a sense of artistic secrecy that makes this more difficult to work with, but it should be expected since this is the longest work of fanfiction ever - a medium that's entirely nonstandard and relatively new.

I'm very aloof right now due to a sudden snowstorm so I hope the point comes across. Basically the criticism would hold much more validity if the story was complete and editors knew everything that was going to happen much more clearly.

While this is quite true, bear in mind that we're not completely ignorant of Somber's plans either. We (or at least, 'I', for sure) know what Project Horizons is, who's slated to die and when, what the Legate is after, etc.

by O. Hinds Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:09 pm

Snipehamster wrote:
Okay, so you've officially resigned now?

(I'm more or less trying to stay out of this, save for upvoting a few posts, for fear of making things worse.)
Yes. I sent an email to you, Somber and Bronode with the same explanation I posted here.

Aye, but that was before you slept on it.

by CD Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:30 pm

Snipehamster wrote:How might news of Celestia's survival (and the circumstances thereof) impact such a belief system?

I think the cult of Celestia's worship would split. One part would accept her 'survival' and hold her up as a new authority for Equestria as she is now truly immortal and the closest to the throne of Equestria. The other half would argue that she is nothing but a program. A similarcrum that is fooling believers into accepting them as their new princess. A program that may have even fooled itself into believing it has the right to rule (like John Henry Eden). The fact that the real Celestia's bones are lying right next to the mainframe means that the princess is truly dead, as is Luna, and the age of the dual monarchy is gone. All that Equestria has become since they failed and died (because now the world knows they are, in fact, ex-princesses) is the work of ponies and people should let go of them both and consign them to the pages of history. But they might also argue the faith should remain as a reminder of why Equestria is as it is, and keep the spiritual message alive (somewhat like a christian who accepts that the bible is incorrect and proven false, but still holds on to the message of peace and forgiveness of Jesus because he believes it is still relevant).

by O. Hinds Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:19 pm

CD wrote:
Snipehamster wrote:How might news of Celestia's survival (and the circumstances thereof) impact such a belief system?

I think the cult of Celestia's worship would split. One part would accept her 'survival' and hold her up as a new authority for Equestria as she is now truly immortal and the closest to the throne of Equestria. The other half would argue that she is nothing but a program. A similarcrum that is fooling believers into accepting them as their new princess. A program that may have even fooled itself into believing it has the right to rule (like John Henry Eden). The fact that the real Celestia's bones are lying right next to the mainframe means that the princess is truly dead, as is Luna, and the age of the dual monarchy is gone. All that Equestria has become since they failed and died (because now the world knows they are, in fact, ex-princesses) is the work of ponies and people should let go of them both and consign them to the pages of history. But they might also argue the faith should remain as a reminder of why Equestria is as it is, and keep the spiritual message alive (somewhat like a christian who accepts that the bible is incorrect and proven false, but still holds on to the message of peace and forgiveness of Jesus because he believes it is still relevant).

Oh, and we've probably also got the Cult of the Lightbringer. Most ponies will probably be dissuaded by her insistence that she doesn't want to be worshipped, but I bet there are some who would just take that as such supreme humility that it must be a sign of divinity or something. I can actually imagine it developing into some sort of (non Steel Ranger related) order of paladins

by StoneSlinger88 Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:32 pm

When I read your post Hinds, a pony-fied version of this scene played in my head...

But Blackjack and Littlepip really do not seem the type of characters who would want anyone worshiping them. BJ, however, seems more prone to have a Life of Brian type situation on her hands than Littlepip.

by Guest Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:44 pm

Even if she's not enshrined as a Messianic figure who ascended into the heavens (which I could definitely see happening, since, y'know, that's sort of what happened - she even left behind a Gospel that she herself wrote, which gives her one up on Jesus, and she's certainly got a few disciples), I could certainly see Pip taking on a guru-like mantle, with ponies taking her on as inspiration and living their lives by her words, like Meher Baba (got wrong guy originally, still was similar) or something.

by CD Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:00 pm

StoneSlinger88 wrote:When I read your post Hinds, a pony-fied version of this scene played in my head...

Funny, I was thinking of "only the true Lightbringer would deny her divinity" as I read that myself.

by jacky2734 Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:16 pm

While it's true that cults might be formed around LP for being the Light Bringer, you also have to remember that after having their old gods die, false gods rise to try and fail at taking up the mantle of the former gods, and over 200 years of having their prayers unanswered, the people of the waste might be quite disillusioned to the idea of worshiping a new god.

It also doesn't help that Alicorns, former symbols of divinity and historically very rare, have now become nothing more than common ponies with wings and exceptional magical ability and viewed as monsters or abominations by many of the ponies in the waste.

by Caoimhe Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:51 pm

Ugh, you had to remind me of the LIGHT BRINGER stuff. That's probably my least favourite part of FoE. So hack and overused.

by O. Hinds Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:00 pm

Caoimhe wrote:Ugh, you had to remind me of the LIGHT BRINGER stuff. That's probably my least favourite part of FoE. So hack and overused.

It's probably too big to throw out, though, so we see what we can headcanon (yes, it's a verb now) to make it unique and interesting. :) A challenging task, admittedly...

by Guest Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:49 pm

How about a pseudo-meta-commentary thing on the FOE phenomenon through a protagonist shortly after the end of the original story who reads Pip's book and decides she wants to be good and famous, too?

edit: I am sort of doing this, slowly and off and on.

by jacky2734 Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:12 pm

On a change of subject , just because I'm curious. Does anybody who's read the original FOE recently remember there being any unresolved story lines, interesting things that never got revisited, or background character who's back story you would have liked to hear?

by OneMoreDaySK Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:30 am

@jacky2734
Well, I kinda wanna see what kinds of characters Spike has seen prior to Littlepip, or even during the events. I'd like to hear Homage transmissions of characters other than the protagonists. (it's a thing that's bugging me. I know game fidelity and all but still...) Everything was more or less focused on Littlepip, and little info was given elsewhere. It makes for a more solid story, but worldbuilding suffers.

by StoneSlinger88 Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:47 am

Watcher mentioned groups of ponies in the past coming close to being the Bearers, but never quite made it. I actually used that as inspiration for my story, setting it over a decade before the events of FO:E. But the history of a lot of the locations were very vague (ponies aren't exactly writing history books on the wasteland), and many seemed interesting for a story to take place.

by Snipehamster Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:22 pm

jacky2734 wrote:On a change of subject , just because I'm curious. Does anybody who's read the original FOE recently remember there being any unresolved story lines, interesting things that never got revisited, or background character who's back story you would have liked to hear?

The bearers of Magic and Generosity, and the events surrounding the GoE activation.
What happened to RD?
Events immediately following the bombs. What were the early days of the Enclave like? Or the first ghouls?
The early days of the Goddess.
More/better LittlePip backstory. She starts out as a bland, bored, horny teen.
The fates of nations/races beyond Equestria.

by CD Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:46 pm

[quote="Snipehamster"]

jacky2734 wrote:More/better LittlePip backstory. She starts out as a bland, bored, horny teen.

Being a bored, horny teen isn't that bad. And it seems she used to be a juvenile deliquent, snooping around other people's property. That's actually enough to craft an interesting backstory. Her mother's the local drunk and village bicycle, so Littlepip's penchant for burglary might have earned her a bad reputation. The contrast with her life outside the Stable would really show how much the wasteland changes ponies.

by StoneSlinger88 Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:18 pm

I remember Littlepip being described as smaller-than-your-average-mare, and her color scheme, but that's about it physically.

by Snipehamster Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:22 pm

That point on Pip might have been personal bias talking. I never really connected with her as a character. The fact that she had little to no backstory (presumably to make it easier for the reader to 'take her place') or even description clashed with the fact that she had such strong opinions and served such an important role in-universe. A rather literal case of a complete nobody coming out of nowhere and saving the world because she happens to be the protagonist.

If someone were to ask me what my least favorite part(s) of FoE were, I'd say 'LittlePip, Homage, the opening, the ending, and the fact that it takes itself too seriously'. That kinda makes it sound like I hate FoE in general, but the story's flaws are offset by its worldbuilding and the incredibly creative subfandom that it spawned.

by Snipehamster Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:37 pm

swicked wrote:
Snipehamster wrote:That point on Pip might have been personal bias talking. I never really connected with her as a character. The fact that she had little to no backstory (presumably to make it easier for the reader to 'take her place') or even description clashed with the fact that she had such strong opinions and served such an important role in-universe.

If someone were to ask me what my least favorite part(s) of FoE were, I'd say 'LittlePip, Homage, the opening, the ending, and the fact that it takes itself too seriously'. Though the story's flaws are made up for by its worldbuilding and the incredibly creative subfandom that it spawned.
What characters did you connect with?
I kinda liked Red Eye, then he got way too stupid. I couldn't care less about any of the rest of them.

I agree with you on Red Eye; good character until he fell apart a bit towards the end, and I liked the way that Kkat blended Ashur and Eden without outright lifting his character traits or goals from either of them.

Steelhooves was probably the most balanced and relatable of the main cast, followed by Calamity (who suffered from an odd lack of character flaws).

I particularly liked the way that Kkat corrupted and broke the main six, with a few situational exceptions (I'm not a sadist! honest!). Pinkie sacrificing her happiness to keep everyone safe, slowly destroying herself in the process. Twilight turning her mind to more and more extreme measures for the sake of winning the war, Fluttershy's kindness backfiring, etc. It would have been easy to just shrug them off as casualties of the war and focus on the OCs, but they were given central roles. Honestly, I'd have liked to see them get more development. Same with Spike and the Princesses, who were conspicuously absent from most of the pre-apocalypse narrative.

by Ketchup Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:50 pm

Snipehamster wrote:
Steelhooves was probably the most balanced and relatable of the main cast, followed by Calamity (who suffered from an odd lack of character flaws).

I particularly liked the way that Kkat corrupted and broke the main six, with a few situational exceptions (I'm not a sadist! honest!). Pinkie sacrificing her happiness to keep everyone safe, slowly destroying herself in the process. Twilight turning her mind to more and more extreme measures for the sake of winning the war, Fluttershy's kindness backfiring, etc. It would have been easy to just shrug them off as casualties of the war, but they were given central roles. Honestly, I'd have liked to see them get more development. Same with Spike and the Princesses, who were conspicuously absent from most of the pre-apocalypse narrative.

Steelhooves was a great character, Calamity was oddly quite flawless. I agree.

The whole Ministry idea was interesting, though I know it's not an entirely new or original idea. I also agree with the deterioration of the 6 being a highlight of the story, and I enjoy the additions to this element present in PH, with Rarity's soul cutting probably being my favorite of all.
The Princesses did deserve more, for sure.

by AGurdel Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:55 pm

Ketchup wrote:with Rarity's soul cutting probably being my favorite of all.

Thats why Rarity is best pony for me. She always was one of my favorites, but that scene put her at the top.

by Sindri Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:09 pm

StoneSlinger88 wrote:I remember Littlepip being described as smaller-than-your-average-mare, and her color scheme, but that's about it physically.

Her color scheme was never even included in the canon; a fanartist made one up and most people tend to go with it. I think Kkat's goal was to make a character that was easy to put yourself in the role of, like how the Fallout protagonist is given minimal characterization so you can play them as you choose, but then

Snipehamster wrote:That point on Pip might have been personal bias talking. I never really connected with her as a character. The fact that she had little to no backstory (presumably to make it easier for the reader to 'take her place') or even description clashed with the fact that she had such strong opinions and served such an important role in-universe. A rather literal case of a complete nobody coming out of nowhere and saving the world because she happens to be the protagonist.

If someone were to ask me what my least favorite part(s) of FoE were, I'd say 'LittlePip, Homage, the opening, the ending, and the fact that it takes itself too seriously'. That kinda makes it sound like I hate FoE in general, but the story's flaws are offset by its worldbuilding and the incredibly creative subfandom that it spawned.

Snipehamster says everything I am thinking here, but more eloquently.

by Caoimhe Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:53 pm

Calamity is the only good character in FoE because he's the only one that sees how fuckin' bullshit everything is. FoE is great for setting but so much of everything is godawful

by SilentCarto Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:03 pm

StoneSlinger88 wrote:Knock knock, motherbucker.
Spoiler:

From a purely action-movie-scene point of view, I wonder if you could fire the tank's gun from one of those while roaring down the road at full speed without breaking the trailer. Coo

Sindri wrote:Is the work as written perfect? Hell no. Are there things that should maybe not have been introduced in the first place, or directions it might have been better not to go? Almost certainly. But changing it now, or cutting it short wouldn't fix things, it would just kill most of what's there now. And there's a lot of awesome there now.

This...

Valikdu wrote:Somber has his own artistic vision.

Saying that he should do something like what Penstroke did (that is, butcher his own story because people said he should) is denying him his vision.

That's not a good thing.

And doubleplus this.

O. Hinds wrote:I imagine that there'd also be some [prostitutes] in Tenpony. They'd be discreetly hidden away, though, and she didn't go looking.

I kind of doubt it. As I recall, you have to demonstrate a useful skill as part of the application process to live in Tenpony. While that wouldn't stop somepony from running a (cough cough) side business, their entry requirements are so rigorous that I wouldn't expect to see that brand of desperation in Tenpony in the first place.

Caoimhe wrote:Ugh, you had to remind me of the LIGHT BRINGER stuff. That's probably my least favourite part of FoE. So hack and overused.

It's just a joke on the karma-rank titles you get from FO2 onward.

by Caoimhe Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:05 pm

SilentCarto wrote:
It's just a joke on the karma-rank titles you get from FO2 onward.

See, I shouldn't have to know that before hand, so that's a fault.

by Guest Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:43 pm

Caoimhe wrote:
SilentCarto wrote:
It's just a joke on the karma-rank titles you get from FO2 onward.

See, I shouldn't have to know that before hand, so that's a fault.

There's an argument to be made that FOE is designed to be a parody, and thus familiarity with the source material is necessary... but it's really not necessary for most of the story, just for some jokes, and most of those pass on by quickly or are innocuous if you don't know they're jokes. The Lightbringer thing kinda doesn't and isn't, so it makes sense that it'd stick out for you.

by Snipehamster Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:53 pm

I imagine Kkat came up with the statuettes as a way of emulating the bobbleheads from FO3, then built the soul jar subplot around that. All they really did was offer Pip a stat boost in the footnotes and (somehow) help her resist the Black Book. They failed miserably at accomplishing what Rarity actually wanted them to.

I think the Lightbringer thing would have made much more sense if Pip had gained the title after bringing the light back to Equestria (or at the very least after announcing her plan to do so).

I have a hard time taking FoE as a parody. It takes itself far too seriously for that.

Don't even get me started on the "artistic vision" argument, though. I don't have any sympathy for that line of thought, I'm afraid. Reminds me of how people defend their smudged, jpg-raped MS Paint doodles with cries of "but it's my styyyyle!" on Deviantart. There are rules and conventions to writing and art in general. These exist because certain things work and certain things don't. The rules can be bent and even broken once properly understood, but only to a point.

by CD Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:17 pm

SilentCarto wrote:I kind of doubt it. As I recall, you have to demonstrate a useful skill as part of the application process to live in Tenpony. While that wouldn't stop somepony from running a (cough cough) side business, their entry requirements are so rigorous that I wouldn't expect to see that brand of desperation in Tenpony in the first place.

I'm not so sure of that. Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world and even a town like Tenpony would have some kind of demand for sex workers. They would probably go for the more classy escort mares and gentlecolts, but they probably can't be picky about it. Tenpony residents would get a good enough education that they don't have to desperately resort to prostitution, which leaves them to pick from the throngs of desperate ponies in the wastes. But as long as one of them can blend in well enough with the high society, they might count 'escort' as a useful skill for lack of native applicants.

by Sindri Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:21 pm

CD wrote:
SilentCarto wrote:I kind of doubt it. As I recall, you have to demonstrate a useful skill as part of the application process to live in Tenpony. While that wouldn't stop somepony from running a (cough cough) side business, their entry requirements are so rigorous that I wouldn't expect to see that brand of desperation in Tenpony in the first place.

I'm not so sure of that. Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world and even a town like Tenpony would have some kind of demand for sex workers. They would probably go for the more classy escort mares and gentlecolts, but they probably can't be picky about it. Tenpony residents would get a good enough education that they don't have to desperately resort to prostitution, which leaves them to pick from the throngs of desperate ponies in the wastes. But as long as one of them can blend in well enough with the high society, they might count 'escort' as a useful skill for lack of native applicants.

Or they could be closer to Firefly-style Companions, not turning to prostitution out of desperation but by choice, and charging enough to live well in Tenpony.

by StoneSlinger88 Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:36 pm

SilentCarto, you wouldn't break the trailer, but if you're moving you'd risk shredding the forty tires it has (which can happen if they're not properly aligned anyways). If not, the damage would be to the suspension. Not that it has been tried, the crew of the tank rides in the cab of the M1070 HET when in transport.

If the creator knows and understands what they're doing, they can pull off a good parody or spoof. When that comes as a "I bet it could work like that" and half-asses it halfway through, it falls short.

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