Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by Moodyman90 Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:20 am

Okay, I'm gonna try to say this and then stay out, and sorry XT if I'm putting words in your mouth.

I think what he means is that a majority of Fallout Equestria stories seem to have LBGT protagonist just for the hell of it because the original story had one.

Now I don't think any of this was suppose to be an attack or a shot at any community but it's still a sensitive subject so can we please drop it?

by **CamoBadger** Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:23 am

Quotidian wrote:
Wait, FoE was sexist? Did I miss something?

Very. Male characters were wrong or their plans failed 100% of the time, meanwhile the female characters were always portrayed as being correct and right in their actions.
- Calamity's plans fail constantly, which seems strange for a very high ranking Enclave officer who was given direct command of a wing of soldiers.
- Calamity is chastised for shooting the colt Raider until he finally apologized.
- Red Eye has a plan and is actually acting to fix the wasteland, he's still portrayed as evil and wrong by the story.
- Lil'Pip always ends up being right in everything she ever does, no matter how stupid or illogical it is. (best example: Killing Red Eye and saying that the Wasteland was already getting better without him and he was only hurting it; because constant raiding; attacks by slavers; racism against pegasi, zebras, and ghouls; and nobody even lifting a hoof to help each other for 90% of the story definitely supports her argument. Meanwhile, he's making an economy, creating civilization, he opposes racism, he protects foals and offers them actual education. True, he has a lot of slaves to get it started, but honestly from what we were shown of the Wasteland would anyone willingly help?).

So yes, I saw it as very sexist.

by Ketchup Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:28 am

Conversely, the war was caused by the failures of the almost entirely female leadership of Equestria. They all screwed up, and what they did wasn't always viewed as right.

We've been over this before, I believe, and there's not much point in arguing about it. Same with the homosexuality prevalence thingy.

by Quotidian Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:35 am

CamoBadger wrote:
Spoiler:

Hmm. I guess I don't see that as "sexist". Just that some characters are flawed, and happen to be male. Pip certainly isn't always right. She screws up quite a bit and nearly gets scragged for it multiple times. Calamity isn't the best at plans, but he's not depicted as incompetent. He's tough, smart, and loyal, and he saves Pip's ass on numerous occasions. And what about Velvet? She's a necessary part of their group, yes, but she does a lot of dumb stuff. At least as much as Calamity.

I don't think that Red Eye being portrayed as "wrong" had much to do with him being male as much as it did with him being a slave ring running monster who ruled his patch of wasteland with an iron fist. I guess I just don't see how that makes the story sexist.

EDIT:

Huh. Apparently I said something people disliked. What I don't like about the +/- system this board uses is that you don't really get feedback about what it was you're getting a negative or positive vote for.

by Downloaded Skill Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:58 am

CamoBadger wrote:
Quotidian wrote:
Wait, FoE was sexist? Did I miss something?
Very. Male characters were wrong or their plans failed 100% of the time, meanwhile the female characters were always portrayed as being correct and right in their actions.
- Calamity's plans fail constantly, which seems strange for a very high ranking Enclave officer who was given direct command of a wing of soldiers.
- Calamity is chastised for shooting the colt Raider until he finally apologized.
- Red Eye has a plan and is actually acting to fix the wasteland, he's still portrayed as evil and wrong by the story.
- Lil'Pip always ends up being right in everything she ever does, no matter how stupid or illogical it is. (best example: Killing Red Eye and saying that the Wasteland was already getting better without him and he was only hurting it; because constant raiding; attacks by slavers; racism against pegasi, zebras, and ghouls; and nobody even lifting a hoof to help each other for 90% of the story definitely supports her argument. Meanwhile, he's making an economy, creating civilization, he opposes racism, he protects foals and offers them actual education. True, he has a lot of slaves to get it started, but honestly from what we were shown of the Wasteland would anyone willingly help?).

So yes, I saw it as very sexist.

I'm inclined to disagree on a few points. Littlepip and Velvet chastise Calamity for killing a child since it offended their delicate stable sensibilites. The way the scene played out it made it seem like Littlepip and Velvet were naive to want to show mercy to a raider just because he was young. Calamity just apologized to get them off his back.

On the topic of Red Eye Littlepip even acknowledges that Red Eye is a fundamentally decent person, he just gave up his morals in an attempt to give Equestria life again. You can't build a utopia on the backs of slaves and oppression. It goes against the themes of both Fallout and FIM.

Ultimately killing Red Eye was a good thing. Red Eye is a major power in the area and he supplies raiders. Realistically the lieutenants that run warbands for Red Eye will not share his values or goals. They are just in it for themselves since they can do anything as long as the bottom line gets met. With Red Eye out of the picture a massive power vaccum develops and warbands vie to be top dog. This results in the unity they had falling apart and they attack each other for dominance and supplies. Since there are dangerous enemies about they are more likely to attack other raiders instead of towns. Anyone would realize that if he sends some forces out to sack towns he will be ripe for the picking from other nearby warbands.

Even if Red Eye succeeded it would be a really shitty place to live. His police force is a bunch of ruthless raiders. He can't personal oversight over everything and his own overseers would probably come from those same raiders. It would just end up being an abusive dystopia that would be mired by slave revolts.

by Sindri Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:22 am

XT Vengeance wrote:I mean, I'm just so sick and tired of the whole "Every main character in Fallout Equestria is either bi or gay!" shtick.

CamoBadger wrote:To be fair, he has a point about characters being gay or bi. It annoys me a bit as well, simply because it is overdone in FoE. Lil'Pip and BJ I don't mind because that's only 2, but beyond that it gets rediculous. Seriously, what are the odds that P21 and Glory happen to be the ones with BJ and they're both gay?

And that's not even all of them. Sorry, but the ratio annoys me as well.

The odds are actually pretty good when you think about it, at least on the mare side. The observed gender ratio in Equestria is something like seven mares to one stallion. That means that there are three logical possibilities, sexuality-wise. The first is that ponies are polygamous, but there's no evidence in favor of that and a great deal against. The second is that about 6/7ths of mares, 3/4 of the full population, never engage in sexual or romantic interactions, but that seems highly unlikely to me. So the most likely solution is if at least a quarter of the romantic pairings in Equestria are between two mares. If you take a random selection of seven wasteland heroines, probabalistically speaking six of them are filly-foolers.

So that covers Blackjack and Littlepip. Then we come to Glory, who on top of the natural tendencies of the species came from a culture which actively encouraged homosexuality as a means of population control, and it's even more likely. P-21 is the only oddity, as the gender ratio would probably make male homosexuals somewhat less common than among humans, but if you look at his background he's a seriously skewed result; the reason he joined the party instead of accepting his lot in life like the others in 99 was because he was gay. And in all the FoE stories I can think of, I'm only coming up with two other gays: Life Bloom, and the protagonist of Wings.

So it's not a move to make the protagonists all special snowflakes, it's not an oddity on the part of the authors, it's just a result of thinking about the ponies and their society logically instead of lazily taking human values an tendencies and putting them on four legs. If you take a random selection of four couples in the FiM universe, the most likely result is three pairs of lesbians and one of heterosexuals. That would be Velvet and Calamity.

O. Hinds wrote:Well, I don't imagine that he's had to worry about little things like "tactics" or "pleasing the assassins". Not with power like his. Of course, the little problem with that is that, if one relies on raw power to the extent that one no longer bothers with skill, and then that power is somehow removed... :))

Oh yes. It's always fun to take down the "invincible" because sure it's really hard, but they never expect or account for it! And that's before you even get into the fun of killing the immortal...

CamoBadger wrote:
Quotidian wrote:
Wait, FoE was sexist? Did I miss something?
Very...

And there's the fact that despite more than 3/4 of the characters being female, 100% of rapists were male. The most morally reprehensible thing a female raider would do is... leave the room instead of objecting. Yeah, Kkat's story comes down a bit on the side of misandry, but it's a fairly weak bias and not much of a problem. It's certainly less misandronistic than the average human film is misogynistic. I do think you're overstating the case a bit; there are good females who screw up, males who become heroes, and female villains, but more of the males do tend to be worse.

Quotidian wrote:Huh. Apparently I said something people disliked. What I don't like about the +/- system this board uses is that you don't really get feedback about what it was you're getting a negative or positive vote for.

Yeah, happens a lot. If I could make a request of the community at large, could you please PM me when I piss you off? Hitting the (-) button isn't going to change anything if I don't even know which part of my wall of text you object to, and I'm not going to waste whole pages of forum by replying to each thing in a different post. Telling me what you hate isn't rude, it lets me fix stupid shit I'm doing and has the chance of sparking discussion that might even reconcile opinions so that people hate each other a little less in the future.

by tylertoon2 Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:49 am

Have I mentioned lately it is nice to be on a forum where this is the closest thing we get to an all out flame war?

I do get a bit annoyed with the sheer volume of lesbian characters, but it's a small annoyance, I get far more annoyed with the sheer amount of unicorn characters, and rarely ever getting an earth pony in the joint.

And there's the fact that despite more than 3/4 of the characters being female, 100% of rapists were male

Did someone sound the Kattlarv signal?

Pip's a lesbian because Kkat is, as far as I know, a lesbian. I've got queer main characters because I'm queer. I don't want to be creepy and speculate about Somber, but from the amount of rainbows flying out of the collective asses of Project Horizon's main cast, I can guess. Do you honestly expect LGBT people to not write LGBT characters? Or do you think there's just not enough straight characters in popular culture?

I agree with you on the basis that people tend to write with what they are familiar with. But not on much more than that.

Sex seems to always be a touchy subject here. Just an observation.

I'm still on adders side of the Shattered Hoof Discussion, more or less. It's kind of something that really shouldn't have been changed for me. Though I'm a bit more open about the legate.

by Sindri Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:09 am

tylertoon2 wrote:Have I mentioned lately it is nice to be on a forum where this is the closest thing we get to an all out flame war?

Yeah, we're awesome like that. I blame the ponies. In the wake of this cartoon, love and tolerance have spread like the plague.

Did someone sound the Kattlarv signal?

Hey, she has valid points. Speaking of, does anybody know where she is? I haven't seen her since I got back... :(

by WovenTales Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:34 am

tylertoon2 wrote:I do get a bit annoyed with the sheer volume of lesbian characters, but it's a small annoyance, I get far more annoyed with the sheer amount of unicorn characters, and rarely ever getting an earth pony in the joint.

And that's the power of the flashy unicorns, right along the same lines as Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon in Friendship is Witchcraft (it ís a fun series, if anyone hasn't seen it yet). Theirs the most obvious of the pony magics—and I'd argue most relatable as well—so no one bothers to take the bit of effort to flesh out some other race. If this were the chat thread, I'd post my headcanon to try to see how others think of the different types of magic, but it seems a bit too off-topic for here, even in a spoiler, not that anything else in this wall is any better, and I don't want to break this to over there unless I knew people were actually interested. Anyway, if I ever do get around to writing one of the stories bouncing around in my head, it's pretty safe to say unicorns will be taking a much smaller role, with major appearances decided on whether or not they actually do further the plot.

Quotidian wrote:Pip's a lesbian because Kkat is, as far as I know, a lesbian. I've got queer main characters because I'm queer. I don't want to be creepy and speculate about Somber, but from the amount of rainbows flying out of the collective asses of Project Horizon's main cast, I can guess. Do you honestly expect LGBT people to not write LGBT characters? Or do you think there's just not enough straight characters in popular culture?

I don't have a problem with anybody writing non-pejorative LGBT characters, and actually think that people being comfortable enough to do so seriously is a good sign. (Though has the last ever actually been in a fic besides the few that focus on a male who went through alicornization? And even among those, are there any that would count as transgender rather than ponies who just switch sexes and feel uncomfortable in or eventually settle with (not accepting, and certainly not embracing) their new body?) But it seems like the problem is the authors who say that since Littlepip and Blackjack are both lesbians, then their own FoE protagonist must also be a lesbian, to the point where having a queer viewpoint is part of the basic formula of a sidefic. Which then never gets elaborated on beyond a few token encounters—which are always too large to be passed off as simple banter without serious interest—to show that, yes, she does like mares, despite a distinct lack of lasting development of that particular facet.

Essentially, there's nothing intrinsically bad about non-heterosexual protagonists, but a large portion of them just have that as one line on the checklist rather than actually making it part of their characters.

And as for popular culture, I'd say there's way too many who are straight. It's almost tragically funny hearing people complain about others "pushing the homosexual agenda" when almost anything in popular culture not conforming to the heteronormative model is quite vocally protested, usually by the same groups. On that note...

tylertoon2 wrote:Sex seems to always be a touchy subject here. Just an observation.

One of the assertions made by one of my Linguistics professors is that taboos are cultural fears. While he didn't specifically say so, I'd say that does include such supposedly pleasurable things as sex. We have convinced ourselves that there's one particular "good" way of doing it so well that we are essentially afraid of anything that challenges us to confront the fact that there may be other, equally valid ways of doing it; anything beyond private acts between two adults of different genders scares us on an almost unidentifiable level, deep enough that we feel it more as disgust than fear. So when characters openly talk about their sex lives, we skirt the edge enough to feel uncomfortable. Polygamous characters and truly open relationships are right in the middle of commonly uncomfortable territory, and Celestia forbid family members like each other in that way, or that foals have had any exposure to it at all, in any context. Homosexual relationships are comparatively easy to be comfortable with, as long as the person has had enough exposure to them—something which most people, unfortunately, lack.
(No, I don't think they're all equivalent. Just that looking at them objectively, most of them seem less immoral, to different degrees, than the majority of people think.)

swicked wrote:She PMed me a few days ago and I haven't gotten around to responding yet.
She's got some RL issues, but she'll be around.

Well, that's too bad. Hope they work themselves out soon, whatever they are. If I remember correctly, though, she's a bit like RoboRed fiveish pages ago, in that she tends to read through the thread from where she left off and respond to most of what's been going on since then. Definitely not a bad thing—I do like seeing fresh viewpoints, or even just fun comments, no matter how much time has passed—but it might take her a while to post even once she does get back.

by Kippershy Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:22 am

XT Vengeance wrote:I mean, I'm just so sick and tired of the whole "Every main character in Fallout Equestria is either bi or gay!" shtick.

I know that feel. It's why I wrote my stuff differently... mostly, anyway. Anyway, I also think P-21 x Glory would be cute. I would've never said it in the past but now with how it's become a shell of a romance instead of what it once had potential to grow into, I could trust P-21 to actually care about Glory and show her some romance unlike Blackjack who is just with her for sex, it seems.

by Plasticube Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:53 am

I had a thought about the latest chapter specifically about the part where the legate catches the tank shell.

What if he was using a really potent dose of dash/rainboom?

From the Fallout wiki

Spoiler:

A dose of turbo(or its foe equivalent) somewhere between 2.5 to 3 times more potent would slow a tank shell fired from an early M4 Sherman look like its going 80-90kph to the user.

Fastball like speeds which would be hard to catch but considering the feats we have seen normal zebras do so far in the fic I wouldn't say its impossible.

by Sindri Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:06 am

Plasticube wrote:I had a thought about the latest chapter specifically about the part where the legate catches the tank shell.

What if he was using a really potent dose of dash/rainboom?

From the Fallout wiki
Spoiler:

A dose of turbo(or its foe equivalent) somewhere between 2.5 to 3 times more potent would slow a tank shell fired from an early M4 Sherman look like its going 80-90kph to the user.

Fastball like speeds which would be hard to catch but considering the feats we have seen normal zebras do so far in the fic I wouldn't say its impossible.

Makes sense. And IIRC Dash and most of Pinkie's other pharmaceuticals were originally created by zebra alchemy, or modified from things which were. I would be entirely unsurprised if Vitiosus had more potent variants, or if his own augmentations imitated the effect without outside intervention. Then you mix that with zebra martial arts, "natural" super strength from whatever gives him regen and such, protection runes on the dragon bone, etc. and he gets scuffed up and pushed back by a shell at hoof's length instead of splattered by one in his face.

I wonder if Deus can pull off specialized ammunition? Either HEAT or DSAP ought to bring some pain, but up until now he seems to have mostly been using shells with a bigger boom and less punch, to take down soft buildings and groups of pedestrians. The Legate definitely needs to be classified as Armor, from a tactical standpoint.

For that matter, where does Deus's ammo come from? Does he manufacture it internally from the metal he eats, like with the repairs, or did the Harbingers just load enough shells inside to last him a full war? Because a serious showdown with Vitiosus could easily go through, like, all of the munitions stockpiles. F*ing regenerators.

by Mr. Snrub Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:48 am

I find it a bit hypocritical that Big Mac jumping in front of a bullet meant for the princess is disregarded as to un-logical because Real-Life snipers, but anything ever catching a tank-shell by any means gets defended as totally do-able. Its a tank shell.

I admit i haven´t read the latest Update so i dont know if that doesn´t happen anyways, but from my experience in military service , and from a basic understanding of physics, even if you would be able to catch one, it would still rip your arm/Tentacle/hoof/cybercrane off. And then it would explode.

by Sindri Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:58 am

Well Vitiosus's got what I'd guess to be a magic inertial anchor, based on being able to no-sell a charge from a pegasus on Dash where his normal mass would have gone flying from the energy applied alone. And he's got ninja reflexes to start with and then probably magical acceleration on top. Plus reinforced armor made entirely out of the highest grade of talismans carved from dragon bones for protection. All on top of a body that's almost certainly modified (like Littlepip but more so) by zebra alchemy, might be cyber'd, and is rather likely to have a deal with the Stars on the side.
And the shell still pushed him across the battlefield, and then exploded.

Macintosh is just a pony. A big one, a brave one, but ultimately entirely mundane and all the more heroic for it. He has no way of seeing an invisible opponent, especially from hundreds of meters away, and he cannot move faster than a bullet. To be hit instead of Celestia, he must have been between her and the shooter when the shot was fired which requires either an incredibly careless/impatient sniper, a sniper targeting him instead of the Princess for some reason, or for him to know where the shooter was beforehoof.

by Mr. Snrub Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:06 am

So what you are telling me is that Sombers reasoning for having to try and rewrite the Macintosh-case from the original is "logic", but to this mega-zebra-something Thing, that appears in the same chapter the same logic doesn´t apply anymore? Because Ninja-Reflexes don´t make it possibly to catch a tank shell, not even if time slows down as your arm would still move slower than the shell, it would just appear slower to you.
He is contradicting himself here, which is in my opinion bad writing. He cant apply logic and physics to just the parts he likes to.

I don´t say this to bash Somber, but try to show up obvious flaws, so he can think about them and improve.

by Cptadder Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:28 am

As far as assassination attempts go, do search in your PDF or web copy of Fallout Equestria, search for Big Macintosh and Shattered Hoof Ridge. You'll find both the mention of the Battle of Shattered Hoof Ridge (When the first megapsell was used) and the attempted peace conference at Shattered Hoof Ridge.

Final note before I head off to work...
You'll also find a third, rather interesting note. About the first time a Zebra steath-buck is found is at... Shattered Hoof Ridge. And this note is attached.

“I’m sending you one of the devices recovered from Shattered Hoof
Ridge. Intelligence suggested that the zebras had developed
invisibility spell fetishes, but this looks like something designed by
the Ministry of Magic. It’s even PipBuck compatible. I hate to say it,
but it looks like we’ve got traitors in our midst. If somepony in M.A.S.
is leaking arcane technology to the zebras, the Princess will need to
take action.”

by Kippershy Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:38 am

Ya know, another possibility for Big Mac to be in the way is for it to have been simple luck (for the princess) that he managed to walk in the way - perhaps to stop her being hit from some other angle from a threat he COULD see?

Say some zebra charges at the same moment as the sniper goes to shoot, by sheer chance Mac walks in the way to block the charging zebras view - hit. After the first shot, the sniper might not want to make another as it's bad for a sniper to stick in the same spot after shooting and there you have it.

Just another possibility that doesn't require all this, is all.

by Sindri Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:03 am

Okay, stand back. I'm going to try... math.

According to wikipedia, the german-made Rheinmetall 120mm tank gun has a muzzle velocity of 1580-1750 m/s. Numbers on the projectiles themselves are harder to find, but the kinetic penetrator rod on an armor-piercing discarding sabot round is between 8-9kg, so I'll use that (the explosive shells Deus is firing are wider but they're also not nearly as dense, and the total energy imparted has got to be similar).

These numbers and some simple math give us a kinetic energy of 10-14 MJ.

An average compact car is about 1700kg, so that same energy is like catching a small car moving at 108-127m/s, about 380-450kph or 240-280mph. That's entirely too fast for most people to really wrap their minds around.
Large SUVs run to about 3700kg, which gives us 73-86m/s, 260-310kph, or 160-190mph. Still faster than you deal with on a daily basis.
A bus full of high school students is about 20,000 kg. Now we're getting somewhere. That's 32-37m/s, 115-133kph, or 72-83mph.

This was enough to push Vitiosus across the field, but not enough to knock him off his rear legs.

Now that we have a sense of the force he's putting out, how fast would he need to be moving to catch it? He and Blackjack were at a distance where they could call to each other without much strain, but there was definitely ground between them; you can't target something at point-blank with a cannon that size. Call it what, pistol ranges? 30m maybe? So Deus's shell would cross that distance in .017-.019 seconds.

Assume the Legate's hooves need to cross about a meter in that time (he's a tall pony), and further assuming that he started moving as Deus fired, but not (he could have watched Blackjack's hoof or read her intentions to start early, but I'll disregard that here) and you get an average speed on those hooves of 53-59m/s.

Combine that with Plasticube's suggestion of chem use giving him a 65% time dilation effect, and without the chems he'd need to be able to move his hooves at an average speed of 18.5-20.7m/s. For comparison, the best baseball pitch on record was 105 mph, 47m/s.

Conclusions? A good enough athlete, aided by chems known to exist in the universe, can get their hooves between their face and a tank shell at that range. In theory. It just wouldn't do most of them any good because the forces involved kill practically anything.
If we call a bus similar mass to a dragon though, and take into account that dragons fly? Someone who could stop a serious charge from a dragon could also stop a tank shot, provided they were durable enough to not be torn apart by it and fast enough to catch it properly.
So the Legate is powerful in a way that most big damn heroes can never touch, and most armored vehicles would envy. But he's within the realms of possibility.

by Plasticube Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:06 am

Mr. Snrub wrote:He cant apply logic and physics to just the parts he likes to.

I guess thats fair, regarding this chapter and Big Mac I am going to wait for the next chapter before deciding if it was ok or a bad idea, until then I'm sticking to my current headcanon.

As for the tank shell catch? I actually got into FOE because I liked The Fallout games and there are alot of things in there that should not be totally do-able and make no sense.

If i was to apply the real world to my idea then yes in game when I take even a normal Turbo, letting my character to move that fast should cause muscles to tear away from bone, breathing that fast should crush my lungs.

Super Mutants, Many of the robots, the ridiculous amount of damage your character and enemies can take( thats a .50 that punched through armor it shouldn't matter how much endurance you have, its a .50), the idea that stuffing anything 'nuclear' into just about everything was a great idea, the list goes on.

If you have issues with these then I can understand, they used to(and sometimes still) annoy me but i just like the world so much i let them slide.

Edit:

Sindri wrote:A bus full of high school students

Or a falling boat.

by Guest Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:13 am

Mr. Snrub wrote:So what you are telling me is that Sombers reasoning for having to try and rewrite the Macintosh-case from the original is "logic", but to this mega-zebra-something Thing, that appears in the same chapter the same logic doesn´t apply anymore? Because Ninja-Reflexes don´t make it possibly to catch a tank shell, not even if time slows down as your arm would still move slower than the shell, it would just appear slower to you.
He is contradicting himself here, which is in my opinion bad writing. He cant apply logic and physics to just the parts he likes to.

I don´t say this to bash Somber, but try to show up obvious flaws, so he can think about them and improve.

Unless you believe that Big Mac had access to extreme zebra magic talismans, there is no logical inconsistency; unless you can argue that magic exists in real life, magic and real-world physics do not entirely mesh. Magic, in FOE, has historically been able to bend and break the "rules" of the normal physical world. There is no contradiction when this happens. Think of it in terms of quantum versus Newtonian physics - technically, quantum (or "magic" in this case) is the most accurate way of describing what's going on (well, technically we need some sort of theory that bridges the gap between the micro and macro physical worlds and all that, but that's irrelevant), but at the macroscopic level Newtonian (or "normal") physics apply. When you start messing about with quantum effects at the macroscopic level, though - when you start to use magic - things get wonky with Newtonian physics.Have a real world analogy.

by Sindri Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:17 am

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:Have a real world analogy.

Holy shit, quantum entanglement on a macroscopic scale and room temperature? If we could maintain that and use it predictably I think most of the applications would indeed qualify as Sufficiently Advanced Technology in the Clarke sense...

by SilentCarto Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:26 am

Somber wrote:Thanks very much for the comments. I was very nervous about the Psalm dream and had concerns it would be one more instance of PH being 'revisionist sue fic'. That's the last thing I wanted.

No, it was adequately telegraphed, or at least hinted at, for long enough that it wasn't a shock. Between Goldie's "Don't make me kill you" and his talk about how bad it would be if Celestia were captured rather than killed, I think we've all seen this coming.

I was actually really glad that the Zebras (other than their ambassador) entered into the peace talks in bad faith -- I was terrified that Mac's death would end up being due to some bizarre OIA operation. Sometimes it's nice to have bad stuff happen because of the bad guys, rather than mistakes, Knights Templar, and Xanatos Gambits. Psalm just should have waited until the zebras were right on top of Celestia before she fired.

by Kippershy Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:14 am

Ranting because fuck it, I've been speaking about it to others and need to say this here again.

I still don't think that the whole "Legate is capable of anything" thing is anywhere close to a good idea in the slightest.
Everyone I've spoken to who ISN'T from here has said that they don't like it at all.

It's so unrealistic, despite all these maths that are supposed to make it reasonable. It isn't to me and I don't see why that would change my mind.

No-one should be able to take a 50.cal and simply accept it as a minor annoyance unless you're riding in some heavy armour (as in a vehicle. not even power armour should stop a fifty).

The fact he can then further control the elements to do his bidding and also regenerate faster than Rampage with capabilities beyond Steelhooves fucks me off so much.
Steelhooves for me was the boundary of what could be done because I hadn't played Dead Money before reading FOE and but I accepted it.

Rampage made up for her OP'ness by being funny and having a sob story with some mystical aura around it that -she didn't even want-.

The Legate goes too far in my book, I can't stand him and I can't stand that Somber would have to resort to some prick with god powers that are thus far unexplained with no prior foreshadowing to such a powerful opponent to try make up for how Mary Sue he's made Blackjack.
He could have used her lowered mobility as a way of knocking her down a notch while keeping the strengthened armour as a way of keeping her alive - but no, that doesn't factor instead we get this guy.

I don't give half a fuck to the assassination attempt, but I can see why so many people on 4chan are calling it absolute bull for the constant additions / clarifications on original lore.
But like I say, that doesn't matter to me because I simply don't care about that.

The other thing I DO care about though (along with one of my friends) is that fucking bullshit "I don't love Glory" moment that Blackjack has.
In that one moment, I was pissed off to the max just as much as I was when Blackjack acted like a little bitch and wouldn't pull the fucking trigger on the rapist.
Her saying that she doesn't love Glory, even if it was just a moment of doubt - which I highly doubt myself - is basically admittance that the relationship is as shallow as Pip x Homage and only about sex.

We've not seen any romance or even reason for the continued togetherness of Blackjack and Glory other than because it fits the status quo.

God. I never thought I'd be saying this shit but yeah, that's how I feel about it all after having mulled over it.

by Sindri Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:44 am

Kippershy wrote:Ranting because fuck it, I've been speaking about it to others and need to say this here again...

Probably shouldn't be trying to reply to this, but w/e. I blame not having slept for forty hours if this offends everyone.

The Legate is pretty definitely not capable of anything. If he was, he wouldn't need that warehouse full of missiles. In fact Blackjack's party seemed to be approaching the limits of his capabilities; Deus pushed him, Rampage cracked his armor, and Blackjack outmaneuvered him momentarily. None of those were nearly enough to kill him, but he did take damage. Infinite power is not acceptable in a good story, but overwhelming force is fine on occasion.

Blackjack has survived several .50 cal slugs and continued fighting through them. Deus wouldn't even feel them. Power armor might only slow down a firearm of that power, but he's not wearing mass-produced metal armor; he's behind multiple layers of the best magical forcefields ever made by zebrakind, each supported by talismans carved of the bones of a dragon. And from a power balance point of view, any villain which can stand against them must by necessity be this tough.

As for Blackjack's thoughts on her relationship? That's what a serious episode of depression looks like. Anything good or pure that you do or feel must be false and inadequate, anyone who seems to care about you is lying to themselves or forcing themselves to put up with you out of pity, because you can't possibly be worth the love of others, or capable of it yourself, right? That paragraph worries me more than anything else in this chapter (in which Legate Vitiosus was left in control of most of a warehouse of missiles, after Lighthooves took what he wanted for his bioweapons projects). Because it means that whatever progress Blackjack's made and whatever drive she has, she's still horribly broken, still lying to herself about who she is, what she feels, and why her comrades are here. It means that she's very likely to ruin all of her relationships out of a delusion that they don't really exist in the first place, and with a prophesy like hers, losing what support she has is likely to be apocalyptic. She needs serious help of a kind which might not exist anymore, and P-21 is trying but a swat upside the head simply will not cut it here.

by Somber Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:24 am

A spoiler then.

Spoiler:

Happy?

by **CamoBadger** Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:25 am

Well...that's pretty darn awesome.

Spoiler:

by Sindri Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:27 am

CamoBadger wrote:Well...that's pretty darn awesome.
Spoiler:

Spoiler:

by Moodyman90 Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:34 am

Curse my curiosity! I could have done without reading that but I couldn't helped myself.

Still, that'll hopefully lessen the hate of how OP he is.

by Kippershy Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:42 am

You have your view, I have mine. Just one thing though - I was depressed for seven years of my life, I still have the remains of that depression lurking inside of me. The method I've used to cure myself isn't the "be gone forever!" cure because nothing is.

So yeah, don't try to tell me what depression does and doesn't do, I understand perfectly well. I still think that it's hollow and that it doesn't matter how you try to deny it, we HAVEN'T seen any romance between Blackjack and Glory.. ever.
No, I'm not kidding you. When has Blackjack ever tried to really make Glory feel special?

by Kippershy Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:46 am

I now have no words.

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