Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by Sindri Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:53 pm

Caoimhe wrote:Only if you write for Studio B.

But think of all the extra toy sales! Trollestia

by O. Hinds Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:50 pm

Exodus Hero wrote:Hey hinds found a misspelled word.
Spoiler:

Something always seems to sneak through. Thanks! In the future, though, you may just quote, spoilered, the relevant passage.

by StoneSlinger88 Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:24 am

Maybe I'm a little late chiming in on the Boo discussion, but it seems to me that she may indeed have a soul, and possibly that all blanks have one. However, being that they were created instantaneously, and immediately harvested for organs or experimentation shortly afterwards, they've simply never had the chance to develop into a recognizable personality beyond basic instinct. Boo has been shown to be very affectionate towards Blackjack, and is the first case we've come across of a blank actually having emotion. Perhaps it's simply a matter of their surroundings that leads to the gradual creation of a personality, much in the way interactions around a newborn infant shapes the way it develops mentally.

by Sindri Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:33 am

StoneSlinger88 wrote:Maybe I'm a little late chiming in on the Boo discussion, but it seems to me that she may indeed have a soul, and possibly that all blanks have one. However, being that they were created instantaneously, and immediately harvested for organs or experimentation shortly afterwards, they've simply never had the chance to develop into a recognizable personality beyond basic instinct. Boo has been shown to be very affectionate towards Blackjack, and is the first case we've come across of a blank actually having emotion. Perhaps it's simply a matter of their surroundings that leads to the gradual creation of a personality, much in the way interactions around a newborn infant shapes the way it develops mentally.

Once again, Goldenblood knew about the facility. He had several experiments going which required souls, and in order to get them he had to sneak people out of the prison systems, which in turn led to most of hims materials being violent and psychologically scarred and thus detrimental to their users. The first thing he would check in a cloning facility is whether they could be harvested for something a bit more valuable than organs, because a bundle of Blank souls would solve so many problems for him. Plus Discord himself said that Boo was fundamentally different in some way, I doubt that was just living a few more weeks.

Welcome to the forums though! Pinkie Pie

Please try to schedule any major mental breakdowns to not coincide with those of others if possible! Crazy

by Ketchup Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:45 am

Nah, Boo doesn't have a soul. She's the Star Maiden. Spike

Silliness aside, welcome to Mr. Slinger.

by CannonFodder Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:49 am

Sindri wrote:The first thing he would check in a cloning facility is whether they could be harvested for something a bit more valuable than organs, because a bundle of Blank souls would solve so many problems for him. Plus Discord himself said that Boo was fundamentally different in some way, I doubt that was just living a few more weeks.

That actually raises a interesting point. In the fallout universe souls seem to be some concrete science. Like you can split them, bind them to a object, move them, warp, contort, control and change them, convert them to energy like the EoS does, but you can't seem to make them. If they could then project eternity would have been a success.

Boo seems to fly directly in the face of their universe's laws of how their universe operates. It'd be like saying someone can make energy from nothing. Me personally I like to think of sapient beings as blank slates at birth and that our "souls" are the combined experiences throughout life and that in a metaphysical sense we "grow" into who we are. For the other blanks they seem to not be able to grow as beings and doomed to die unless fed. Boo seems to be able to grow.

That also raises the question, is Boo actually mentally deficient or does she just not have enough information to be mentally a adult yet? What would happen if someone were to take a memory orb and take all the education experience from school or such and implant it into Boo? Would she begin speaking and able to communicate beyond non-verbal means? It would take a pony like Life Bloom or someone of high level memory modification to do so though. If it doesn't work at least Boo would be able to function normally.

by Sindri Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:01 am

CannonFodder wrote:
Sindri wrote:The first thing he would check in a cloning facility is whether they could be harvested for something a bit more valuable than organs, because a bundle of Blank souls would solve so many problems for him. Plus Discord himself said that Boo was fundamentally different in some way, I doubt that was just living a few more weeks.
That actually raises a interesting point. In the fallout universe souls seem to be some concrete science. Like you can split them, bind them to a object, move them, warp, contort, control and change them, convert them to energy like the EoS does, but you can't seem to make them. If they could then project eternity would have been a success.

Boo seems to fly directly in the face of their universe's laws of how their universe operates. It'd be like saying someone can make energy from nothing. Me personally I like to think of sapient beings as blank slates at birth and that our "souls" are the combined experiences throughout life and that in a metaphysical sense we "grow" into who we are. For the other blanks they seem to not be able to grow as beings and doomed to die unless fed. Boo seems to be able to grow.

That also raises the question, is Boo actually mentally deficient or does she just not have enough information to be mentally a adult yet? What would happen if someone were to take a memory orb and take all the education experience from school or such and implant it into Boo? Would she begin speaking and able to communicate beyond non-verbal means? It would take a pony like Life Bloom or someone of high level memory modification to do so though. If it doesn't work at least Boo would be able to function normally.

Well, we don't have much solid information, but I would guess that Boo would be somewhere between a couple weeks and a couple months old when Blackjack found her. She'd been around long enough to be malnourished, but I can't see somebody with her lack of experience surviving much longer than that in an environment that hostile. So in my mind Boo isn't mentally deficient or even dumb (in fact by the rate she picks up new things she might well be brilliant), but she's had no more life than a normal foal and for most of that time nobody was even talking around her. I see her not as an animal or a mental case, but as a small child in the body of an adult. And she's unfortunate enough to have Blackjack as a mommy.

As for souls, that's an interesting theory... if I understand you right, you're saying that a newborn does not initially have a soul but begins growing one immediately as they begin to experience things? In that case, the difference between Boo and most Blanks might simply be that she can learn...

by CannonFodder Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:28 am

Sindri wrote:As for souls, that's an interesting theory... if I understand you right, you're saying that a newborn does not initially have a soul but begins growing one immediately as they begin to experience things? In that case, the difference between Boo and most Blanks might simply be that she can learn...

It's called the blank slate theory. The theory pretty much says that the reason why we are different in how we act from animals is that we are taught how to think. Like from a physical standpoint some animals do have the mental capacity of five year olds, but they don't act as such because they aren't taught what we as humans know. We can communicate with gorillas or such through sign language because if you teach them how to communicate then they can learn. In order for a animal with high intellectual capacity to be able to at least act similar to humans and able to communicate we would have to isolate them from others of their species from birth and teach them. From a biological standpoint human beings are not special at all.

The whole "human beings are superior" thing is a logical fallacy when you break it down. We are superior because we have civilization and able to communicate information between each other and transmit information and teach others. It is not our biological processes that make us superior, it's our knowledge. Knowledge is power.

On a different note-
The idea of memory orbs raises a ton of ethical questions and questions about in fallout equestria how come they didn't do so and so. If it's possible to copy memory orbs and it's possible to go through them in a short amount of time then wouldn't it be possible to abuse them to make ideal soldiers or download knowledge directly into a pony's brain? Like if you wanted too you could theoretically take the combat experiences and the mental fortitude of long term soldiers and force it into another pony's brain and pop you have a shake-and-bake soldier, just add memory orbs. You could also theoretically change the face of the wasteland by every so often take the combined new knowledge and combat experiences of everyone and force it into everyone.

It wouldn't matter if you were outnumbered, cause you would have shake-and-bake soldiers with know how of the entire faction. The shake-and-bake soldiers would have combat knowledge, medical knowledge, mechanical knowledge, tactics knowledge, education and such of everyone in the group.

That also posses the problem of ethical questions about what if they were to make shake-and-bake soldiers with the memories of idealized individuals. Imagine if someone were to take not only all the knowledge of the entire faction, but give them the memories or littlepip & co., blackjack & co., any and all memory orbs of the mane 6, as well as any past hero. That amount of knowledge and combat experience they would be unholy amounts of unstable and probably go on a psychotic rampage in the end, but they would destroy anything and everything that stands in their way. They would be the ultimate super soldiers and make alicorns look like pansies in comparison.

by Sindri Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:03 am

swicked wrote:...would you take a foal, a small child, and do the same?
I really hope they just let her develop as she is. I don't see brain-stuffing as being all that adventitious to the team.

Whatever Boo has, the chaos-god thought she was unusual; I just don't think it'll be quite so simple as a blank with a soul.
Maybe the soul is something off. Maybe it's bound to her in a way that souls don't usually bond to their living beings. Maybe she's actually a cyborg (have we seen her bleed?).
I just really don't think this is going to be resolved quite so... obviously.

Edit:
Btw, I don't remember if I said it before, but it's awesome to have you back, Sindri ^_^

Thanks. It's good to be back. All that not being here that I was doing? It was stupid and terrible.

As for the memory orbs to quick-train a soldier or "age up" a Blank? I don't think it would work, at least not entirely.
We know from Scotch that a person's memory and the effect it has on them (the imprint of it on their soul, perhaps?) are to some degree separate. When you remove the memory of a traumatic event you do not remove the trauma itself; they might not flash back and might be better able to work near triggers without the memory but they'll still be uncomfortable or fearful without any idea why.
Implanting a memory would likely be the same thing in reverse. They would remember the sensory experiences of soldiers in battle, or a child growing up, and might even believe those memories to be theirs... but ultimately they did not experience them. It would be a big step up from training manuals or instructional videos but nowhere near as good as actual experience. I'd even say that simulations or games would work better, since they might not be as immersive but at least the soldier-to-be is making decisions instead of being passively along for the ride.

As for implanting those soldiers with the experiences of heroes... imagine somepony with all of Littlepip's knowledge, including things like her time with the Black Book and the spells she learned from it, but none of the experience, none of the emotional connections, none of the moral thoughts. That's a kind of monster I don't think anybody wants to face.

And no, I don't recall ever seeing Boo bleed. I've seen her eat, and hide, and gun down those who threaten Blackjack, but I can't recall her injured...

by CannonFodder Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:34 am

Sindri wrote:As for the memory orbs to quick-train a soldier or "age up" a Blank? I don't think it would work, at least not entirely.
We know from Scotch that a person's memory and the effect it has on them (the imprint of it on their soul, perhaps?) are to some degree separate. When you remove the memory of a traumatic event you do not remove the trauma itself; they might not flash back and might be better able to work near triggers without the memory but they'll still be uncomfortable or fearful without any idea why.
Implanting a memory would likely be the same thing in reverse. They would remember the sensory experiences of soldiers in battle, or a child growing up, and might even believe those memories to be theirs... but ultimately they did not experience them. It would be a big step up from training manuals or instructional videos but nowhere near as good as actual experience. I'd even say that simulations or games would work better, since they might not be as immersive but at least the soldier-to-be is making decisions instead of being passively along for the ride.

As for implanting those soldiers with the experiences of heroes... imagine somepony with all of Littlepip's knowledge, including things like her time with the Black Book and the spells she learned from it, but none of the experience, none of the emotional connections, none of the moral thoughts. That's a kind of monster I don't think anybody wants to face.

Exactly. The point of it would be to create monsters that no one anywhere would want to face. Imagine even as little as a couple dozen ponies given thousands upon thousands of combat memories of other ponies. They would not have the emotional connections or moral thoughts of the ponies you stole the memories from.

Your best bet would be to ask survivors of a raider attack or something, who are extremely emotionally and psychologically distraught, if they want payback against all raiders then implant the memories and let them lose. In all probability they would destroy the raiders who attacked their village, but would psychologically begin to unravel as they don't understand why the psychological trauma isn't going away and aren't happy and then go on a rampage throughout the wasteland killing all raiders thinking that maybe if they kill one more raider it will be enough.

Making monsters is the point.

Let's say idunno between red eye's forces, the enclave, the steel rangers(not applejack's rangers), the goddess' alicorns and raiders there's 50k opposing enemies. Now let's say working in groups with each other they could on average kill 500 enemies before dying(remember super soldier monsters with the combat experience of thousands of individuals working in groups) it would take only about a hundred of the shake-and-bake soldiers to wipe out every opposing force.

by Sindri Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:52 am

CannonFodder wrote:Exactly. The point of it would be to create monsters that no one anywhere would want to face. Imagine even as little as a couple dozen ponies given thousands upon thousands of combat memories of other ponies. They would not have the emotional connections or moral thoughts of the ponies you stole the memories from.

Your best bet would be to ask survivors of a raider attack or something, who are extremely emotionally and psychologically distraught, if they want payback against all raiders then implant the memories and let them lose. In all probability they would destroy the raiders who attacked their village, but would psychologically begin to unravel as they don't understand why the psychological trauma isn't going away and aren't happy and then go on a rampage throughout the wasteland killing all raiders thinking that maybe if they kill one more raider it will be enough.

Making monsters is the point.

Let's say idunno between red eye's forces, the enclave, the steel rangers(not applejack's rangers), the goddess' alicorns and raiders there's 50k opposing enemies. Now let's say working in groups with each other they could on average kill 500 enemies before dying(remember super soldier monsters with the combat experience of thousands of individuals) it would take only about a hundred of the shake-and-bake soldiers to wipe out every opposing force.

Okay, look at it this way:

People were talking about Die Hard earlier, so I'll use that as an example. How many terrorists do you feel like you could take down after watching those events, through Bruce Willis's eyes? No experience outside, never held a gun IRL, but watched a thousand action movies through the eyes of the heroes and felt every physical sensation they did? The realistic answer is maybe one, probably less because between overconfidence and the fact that you never made a single decision during those you're an easy (and soft) target.

Now, same scenario, you've done nothing for the past few decades/centuries of subjective time (going through thousands of heroes) but feel yourself tear apart targets. How many innocent civilians do you think you'd end up trying to kill during an average walk around town? No discernible difference between waking life and your training, most of the people you've ever "interacted" with have tried to tear you apart, somebody looks at you funny or acts rude...

Your "supersoldiers" would be harmless to your enemies and hazardous to your allies. And that's all before we even get into the high probability that they'll figure out that you put them through all those stabbings and shootings and torture sessions for your own benefit, that their entire (hundreds of years of) life has been a lie except for the very real pain they felt, and decide to use what training they have to get even.

All in all I think a few weeks of basic training is a better idea.

by CannonFodder Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:15 am

Sindri wrote:Okay, look at it this way:

People were talking about Die Hard earlier, so I'll use that as an example. How many terrorists do you feel like you could take down after watching those events, through Bruce Willis's eyes? No experience outside, never held a gun IRL, but watched a thousand action movies through the eyes of the heroes and felt every physical sensation they did? The realistic answer is maybe one, probably less because between overconfidence and the fact that you never made a single decision during those you're an easy (and soft) target.

Now, same scenario, you've done nothing for the past few decades/centuries of subjective time (going through thousands of heroes) but feel yourself tear apart targets. How many innocent civilians do you think you'd end up trying to kill during an average walk around town? No discernible difference between waking life and your training, most of the people you've ever "interacted" with have tried to tear you apart, somebody looks at you funny or acts rude...

Your "supersoldiers" would be harmless to your enemies and hazardous to your allies. And that's all before we even get into the high probability that they'll figure out that you put them through all those stabbings and shootings and torture sessions for your own benefit, that their entire (hundreds of years of) life has been a lie except for the very real pain they felt, and decide to use what training they have to get even.

All in all I think a few weeks of basic training is a better idea.

. . Wait if they were harmless to my enemies then how could they be harmful to me? I can understand if I did the stupid thing and made a huge batch of them all at once, but if we're talking about five or such in a heavily fortified compound and the shake-and-bake soldiers are harmless then wouldn't trying to kill me just get themselves shot?

You're brushing off technique from basic combat as unimportant. If having combat knowledge is that unimportant then why do we require soldiers to go through training?

by Sindri Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:27 am

CannonFodder wrote:. . Wait if they were harmless to my enemies then how could they be harmful to me? I can understand if I did the stupid thing and made a huge batch of them all at once, but if we're talking about five or such in a heavily fortified compound and the shake-and-bake soldiers are harmless then wouldn't trying to kill me just get themselves shot?

You're brushing off technique from basic combat as unimportant. If having combat knowledge is that unimportant then why do we require soldiers to go through training?

The orbs would tell them how to fight, and encourage them to do so often, but they still would never have known real combat. It gives all the confidence of a hardened badass, all the ferocity of a berzerker, and combines it with the grace and experience of a kid in a slapfight. They would simply die against a real combatant, but probably have a tendency to kill the defenseless without a thought. There is no advantage and many disadvantages over traditional training. Again, a few memory orbs might replace training manuals, lectures, and videos very effectively but actual experience in the real world, even if it's just in wargames and practice maneuvers, would be much more effective than convincing the soldier that they're something they aren't by immersing them in the acts of another.

by CannonFodder Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:46 am

Sindri wrote:The orbs would tell them how to fight, and encourage them to do so often, but they still would never have known real combat. It gives all the confidence of a hardened badass, all the ferocity of a berzerker, and combines it with the grace and experience of a kid in a slapfight. They would simply die against a real combatant, but probably have a tendency to kill the defenseless without a thought. There is no advantage and many disadvantages over traditional training. Again, a few memory orbs might replace training manuals, lectures, and videos very effectively but actual experience in the real world, even if it's just in wargames and practice maneuvers, would be much more effective than convincing the soldier that they're something they aren't by immersing them in the acts of another.

What I am talking about there is a real life terminology for it. In psychology it's called "reprogramming". We can in real life cause a individual to have a false memory that someone implanted or such using. . er less than ethical means. It's commonly known by it's more better known name as, "brainwashing".

by Sindri Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:15 am

CannonFodder wrote:If knowledge or training is only valid in a first account experience as in you yourself experienced it then that invalidates all of knowledge and training. Meaning by that logic doctors must perform a triple bypass in order to have "real" training for knowing how to perform a triple bypass. In order for a individual to have "real" training in combat they would have just jump into a warzone to have "real" combat knowledge. The problem is that regardless if a memory is actually yours or not the neural structure is burned into your brain.
It further falls through the floor with remember how the robots in that hospital diagnosed blackjack with memory orb abuse? If you were right then such a thing could not exist ever.

Basically I'm talking about cranking up memory orb abuse to 11.

I'm not saying that training is useless. In fact several times now I've said just the opposite. However your proposal, to take raw, untrained personnel and put them through the memories of a thousand heroes, is significantly worse than conventional training. They will have seen and felt the motions of a hundred thousand battles, but they will never have moved. They will have ridden along with tactical geniuses without ever making a tactical decision. A normal trainee is barely competent and knows it well. Your supersoldiers will be incompetent but believe themselves to be masters; they will only be dangerous to themselves and to those without any ability to fight.

I have extensive knowledge of the workings of many firearms. I know virtually everything that can be spoken, written, or conveyed through film of proper stance and grip when shooting. Someone watching the memory of a sharpshooter would have no information which I lack. I can identify flaws in fictional depictions of shooting, and have even correctly gauged a prospective gunman's skill or lack thereof in real life. However, I have never fired a weapon and thus I am not so conceited as to believe I would be accurate with one. Being convinced that I had done so and would be a master with the weapon would not improve my ability, it would simply encourage me to attempt that which I could not survive.

You have taken the concept of the armchair quarterback, of the barstool sharpshooter, to its most extreme conclusion. The results would not be very useful to anyone.

by CannonFodder Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:29 am

Sindri wrote:I'm not saying that training is useless. In fact several times now I've said just the opposite. However your proposal, to take raw, untrained personnel and put them through the memories of a thousand heroes, is significantly worse than conventional training. They will have seen and felt the motions of a hundred thousand battles, but they will never have moved. They will have ridden along with tactical geniuses without ever making a tactical decision. A normal trainee is barely competent and knows it well. Your supersoldiers will be incompetent but believe themselves to be masters; they will only be dangerous to themselves and to those without any ability to fight.

I have extensive knowledge of the workings of many firearms. I know virtually everything that can be spoken, written, or conveyed through film of proper stance and grip when shooting. Someone watching the memory of a sharpshooter would have no information which I lack. I can identify flaws in fictional depictions of shooting, and have even correctly gauged a prospective gunman's skill or lack thereof in real life. However, I have never fired a weapon and thus I am not so conceited as to believe I would be accurate with one. Being convinced that I had done so and would be a master with the weapon would not improve my ability, it would simply encourage me to attempt that which I could not survive.

You have taken the concept of the armchair quarterback, of the barstool sharpshooter, to its most extreme conclusion. The results would not be very useful to anyone.

I'm talking more along the lines of reprogramming parts of said individual's memory to that of the target personality. Like how Trixie over-rides other pony's minds and the default personality of the alicorns in unity, excluding lacunae and those in canterlot, is copies of Trixie. Instead of Trixie-in-a-vat it is soldier-in-a-orb.

What I mean by that is if your memory was overwrote by that of idunno the memories of abraham lincoln then you're going to act, think and talk like abraham lincoln.

by Sindri Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:38 am

CannonFodder wrote:I'm talking more along the lines of reprogramming parts of said individual's memory to that of the target personality. Like how Trixie over-rides other pony's minds and the default personality of the alicorns in unity, excluding lacunae and those in canterlot, is copies of Trixie. Instead of Trixie-in-a-vat it is soldier-in-a-orb.

What I mean by that is if your memory was overwrote by that of idunno the memories of abraham lincoln then you're going to act, think and talk like abraham lincoln.

That's the exact opposite of what memory orbs are capable of though. They have no record of or influence on personality, thought patterns, or any of that. They record sensory data, from all senses and with impressive detail, but no context. The viewer rides along, seeing, hearing, and feeling what the 'donor' did, but has no access to the mind.

If you were hardcore on the side of Nurture in the old NvN debate and didn't believe in free will at all, I suppose you could try taking an infant and strapping them into a series of orbs of every second of the target's entire life, but there will still inevitably be differences and to match the experiences up you'd need to simulate their effects on the body while playing everything at a 1:1 rate... it's an incredibly impractical system which would have virtually zero success chance.

Unity, on the other hoof, is all about the thoughts and personalities. Trixie could totally take the experiences of one alicorn and put them in another, and that's why every alicorn you fight is more dangerous than the last unless telepathy is blocked or she's being stupid about something. Every experience is added to the pool of Unity, and the individual bodies are just hardware platforms.

by CannonFodder Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:58 am

Sindri wrote:That's the exact opposite of what memory orbs are
capable of though. They have no record of or influence on personality,
thought patterns, or any of that. They record sensory data, from all
senses and with impressive detail, but no context. The viewer rides
along, seeing, hearing, and feeling what the 'donor' did, but has no
access to the mind.

If you were hardcore on the side of Nurture
in the old NvN debate and didn't believe in free will at all, I suppose
you could try taking an infant and strapping them into a series of orbs
of every second of the target's entire life, but there will still
inevitably be differences and to match the experiences up you'd need to
simulate their effects on the body while playing everything at a 1:1
rate... it's an incredibly impractical system which would have virtually
zero success chance.

Unity, on the other hoof, is all about the
thoughts and personalities. Trixie could totally take the experiences of
one alicorn and put them in another, and that's why every alicorn you
fight is more dangerous than the last unless telepathy is blocked or
she's being stupid about something. Every experience is added to the
pool of Unity, and the individual bodies are just hardware
platforms.

Okay, look memory orbs are a plot hole in the original fallout equestria.
They could store memories in massive quantities, create copies of pony's minds and store them in computers, and attach souls to computers and have the soul run a computer program without any previous knowledge into how binary works or how terminals work, but they couldn't copy combat knowledge? If I were in their universe and they told me, "hey I found a way to download a entire consciousness into a computer, but we still haven't found a way to copy knowledge from pony to pony" I would have thought someone was pulling my leg.

It's a real slap to the face when it comes to suspension of disbelief.

by Moodyman90 Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:46 am

I'm sorry but the whole conversation just brought to mind how they was trying to make Raidien into the new Snake by putting him through VR training before shoving him into Big Shell in a recreation of Shadow Moses.

I see the point you're trying to make Cannon, but I have to side with Sindri on this one. Knowledge, especially implanted knowledge like you're implying, can't take the place over training and practice. Let's say they did that with an expert of hoof to hoof combat and implant that knowledge into some soldiers. Yeah they may know the moves, how they're done, and how to perform them, but even if they're in shape their body won't be use to the movement and actions.

And I guess I didn't see any potential for alternative uses for memory orbs because I always saw them as a fancy magical alternative to Fallouts audio logs.

by Guest Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:55 am

@Cannon
The mind-upload and soul/program attachment things were highly experimental and done near the end, IIRC, and done only once, though. The former had been fiddled with prior to everything exploding, with mixed results if I'm not mistaken, and the latter seems to work at least in part because souls have some sort of magical nature and so does much of Equestria technology, programming included. In fact, I'm not even sure they use binary - the only reference I could find to the word was a "binary encryption," which referred to an encryption on a message that could only be broken by bringing it to the terminal upon which it was encrypted.

by Guest Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:26 am

Somber wrote:“All right, Diamond Flash. You can do this.”

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but I was reading the newest chapter and noticed this reference. Not sure if it's been pointed out yet, but I enjoyed the nod.

by WavemasterRyx Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:15 pm

Very minor but relevant spoiler? for the new episode:

Spoiler:

by SilentCarto Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:20 pm

Magical Mystery Cure:

by O. Hinds Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:20 pm

Re the memory orb debate:
I'm also siding with Sindri here. A memory orb regimen would not be qualitatively different, I think, from a regimen of films or books. What's important for the soldier to learn is not so much what the heroes did but why they did it; the exact same situation is, after all, unlikely to occur again, and that's the center of the limited range that mere knowledge of what was done is good for. Much better to understand what considerations led to the decision being made, as those are much more widely applicable. To make a comparison, being handed the kinematic equations is clean and easy, but it only works in situations where those equations apply; being able to derive them oneself prepares one for a much broader array of situations.
Now, an intelligent soldier exposed to a memory orb regimen could probably correctly deduce some of the reasoning, but they could do the same with films or books. The chances of unintelligent soldiers becoming overconfident, however, seems indeed likely to be higher with memory orbs. Orbs seem likely to be a very useful component of training, but I think that they'd be very poor substitute for it.
And this doesn't even get into the previously-mentioned physical training angle...

Last wrote:
Somber wrote:“All right, Diamond Flash. You can do this.”

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but I was reading the newest chapter and noticed this reference. Not sure if it's been pointed out yet, but I enjoyed the nod.

...What is that a reference to?

by Cptadder Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:21 pm

WavemasterRyx wrote:Very minor but relevant spoiler? for the new episode:
Spoiler:

But they are not crystally without the Crystal heart.

Again I draw the dividing line of FoE/MLP cannon at the return of the Crystal Empire. Even Cadence and SA can be handwaved away, but the Crystal Empire leads directly to Twilight's little destiny.

by Meleagridis Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:40 pm

CannonFodder wrote:
Okay, look memory orbs are a plot hole in the original fallout equestria.
They could store memories in massive quantities, create copies of pony's minds and store them in computers, and attach souls to computers and have the soul run a computer program without any previous knowledge into how binary works or how terminals work, but they couldn't copy combat knowledge? If I were in their universe and they told me, "hey I found a way to download a entire consciousness into a computer, but we still haven't found a way to copy knowledge from pony to pony" I would have thought someone was pulling my leg.

While I don't disagree on some of the irritating qualities of memory orbs, you're bringing up two completely unrelated topics. The soul-transfer thing was explicitly a no-no subject, designed and banished long before any of the scientists of pre-war Equestria started screwing around with someone's mind. And if you want to bring up the Crusader mainframe, the soul-not-included version, then remember that that technology fried the brain it scanned for information.

Moodyman90 wrote:
And I guess I didn't see any potential for alternative uses for memory orbs because I always saw them as a fancy magical alternative to Fallouts audio logs.

Huuuurg trying not to get started on memory orbs. They were a replacement for audio logs... but then there were actual audio logs! And the holes they make and the...
[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 12 Tumblr_m7zea5Ymfp1r3a5z6

[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 12 Tumblr_m7zea5Ymfp1r3a5z6

UGH!

Last wrote:
Somber wrote:“All right, Diamond Flash. You can do this.”

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but I was reading the newest chapter and noticed this reference. Not sure if it's been pointed out yet, but I enjoyed the nod.

Reference?

by SilentCarto Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:52 pm

Caoimhe wrote:Also, I'm too lazy to look it up, did Blackjack acquire the "max level" before Pip?

Nope. Pip maxed out after her first meeting with the Goddess, while BJ hit max level after her cyborg conversion a few days later.

by Cptadder Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:59 pm

Hey Mel, memory orbs make sense in a world with magic. They are not a copy of a persons mind but of a person's experiences. The physical stuff, note how none of the memory orbs provide mental thoughts of the people involved. Just an audio/visual/tactile feel of the ponies involved. It's a spell, like Twilight's memory spell... just refined into a physical object you can poke with any old horn and get a replay. The reason for their creation was simple, we needed to be able to witness not just hear certain events. That's Kkat's intention at least, which is why they exist. Needs of the story mean you need a way to do X and memory orbs might not be the best X but in story they make sense.

After all, memories are stored in our squishy pathetic human brains, our problem with reading them directly off the brain is the simple fact we can't understand the format yet. Magic lets you skip around this.

by O. Hinds Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:46 pm

Well, I've just finished watching the new episode, and I found it very, very okay. The quantity and nature of the singing wasn't quite to my taste, but, for the most part, I neither liked nor disliked the episode; given how things could have gone, that's probably good.

I'm not sure, though, whether I prefer Magical Mystery Cure's sublime blandness or the Royal Wedding's mixture of the interesting and cool with the eyetwitchingly bad.

by Meleagridis Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:07 pm

Cptadder wrote: memory orbs might not be the best X but in story they make sense.

Aye, they make sense. But that's not really what I'm whining about. It may not be smart, or correct, but I'm complaining about it not being the best possible X. The post-apocalyptic logs were one of the biggest draws of Fallout for me, and Fallout was the biggest draws of Fallout: Equestria for me. Early on, the original story was really just a parody of the games and that was the biggest reason to read it. Before it took on a life of its own, the little deviations left a real sour taste in my mouth. The big deviations (like memory orbs) left me with a foul taste. There's nothing to be done- featured so early and frequently, they are now an ingrained part of the world. I know it's really just a minor detail, just... I love this gif so much.

My memory isn't the best, but I'm fairly certain the moment I knew I was going to finish Project Horizons was back in Uncle Hoss' shack, Blackjack reading through his stoic final days. Sometimes a journal does even more justice than the experience.

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