Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by Kippershy Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:46 pm

Oh, also, I'm not so sure it was for the new faces but for the likes of me and Adder, maybe. SnipeHamster hadn't begun his series of posts before that point though I was the first one (I think) to really make any deal out of the Legate and then Adder made a much more in-depth post and I followed up with a series of impulsive posts about how much I fucking hated everything.

...yup, still got a small amount of impulsiveness left in me.

Anyway, I doubt Somber did it to for the newer faces but rather the old ones.

by Caoimhe Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:54 pm

I see. I guess I jumped the gun here. Also I only was able to download and read the chapter when I touched down in LA before the last leg of the flight and sorta speed read a lot of it since I was both without decent sleep and quite intoxicated at 6am so I haven't had time to process anything fully yet.

Considering also that this thread has touched on topics including divergence from Kkat's story a number of times before, i can see how new folks can get lost in the crowd especially when Legate issues are also being discussed. Apologies abound.

by Kippershy Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:03 pm

Just be glad the majority of the people who could have come and said their piece didn't.
I really, really don't think Somber would be able to handle even the tiniest amount of it, at all.

by Vergil Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:48 pm

Caoimhe wrote:(I'm also incredibly jet-lagged from being on an almost 40 hour flight from New Zealand. Spoiler: New Zealand does not actually contain hobbits.)

DAMMIT

by Snipehamster Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:13 pm

Zebras DO have special rules. Canonically. Unless you have an alternate
explanation of how she did the tea trick and why Zecora is qualified to
train Twilight in magic use.

There's a big, big jump between conjuring tea (which I would imagine any suitably skilled and prepared illusionist could do irl anyway) and shrugging off being shot, blown up and gutted.

More to the point, whether or not one can rationalize the Legate's powers in-universe there's still the issue of justifying them from a meta perspective.

At this point, I've more or less stopped caring about the characters because their actions no longer have consequences besides angst and the occasional bereavement or mutilation (which rarely has a long term effect). The uber-powerful Legate never registers as dramatic or a credible threat because in order to do so he'd need to seriously shake up the status quo. Something well-established as bloody hard to do.

PH is longer than the Bible at this point. Longer than the Harry Potter series. Why do we need to keep throwing in transformations, supervillains and revisions of the original when the focus should be on finishing the story's existing plotlines before they become completely stale?

Also, am I mistaken in reading that somewhere in here Somber spoiled the
ultimate ending of PH to appease some particular low content critics
I've never seen here before? I've been careful about clicking on these
spoiler blocks but some folks are rather matter of factly talking about
BJ's fate like it was revealed.

Nobody's spoiled the ending, to my knowledge. Somber wouldn't, and Hinds, Bro and I only have a partial knowledge of what's intended to happen (and while I don't agree with every detail I've heard, I wouldn't spill the beans without Somber's explicit say-so).

Some folks on /mlp/ think they have everything figured out, and for obvious reasons I can't really comment on that.

by Caoimhe Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:21 pm

I was just able to check out that Requiem tumblr. Quite curious so far and can definitely see Somber's involvement. I also really dig the art style because of the set dressing and angle of focus used. It's not stationary like a lot of webcomic styles and explores the environment and mood.

by Sindri Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:44 pm

Caoimhe wrote:Also, am I mistaken in reading that somewhere in here Somber spoiled the ultimate ending of PH to appease some particular low content critics I've never seen here before? I've been careful about clicking on these spoiler blocks but some folks are rather matter of factly talking about BJ's fate like it was revealed.

The new villain had a bunch of people calling ass pull or mary sue and comparing it to various bad shonen, because the Legate had abilities which weren't explained fully within the first few minutes of his appearance. So Somber put out a spoiler box with some rough outlines of his background and power sources, which decreased the heat of the arguments significantly. We've mostly been keeping any repetition of that information or conclusions based on it in spoiler boxes, and I agree with SilentCarto's suggestion that we label Legate Spoilers as such in the future.

Spoiler: New Zealand does not actually contain hobbits.

Box your damn spoilers!

Kippershy wrote:Just be glad the majority of the people who could have come and said their piece didn't.
I really, really don't think Somber would be able to handle even the tiniest amount of it, at all.

One of the basic rules of 4chan and related sites: outside of formal raids, when they have enough people to overcome their natural cowardice and egg each other on, anyone without a screen name will avoid going places they're required to use one. Despite the fact that anyone with any idea how computer security works can tell you that anons really aren't, they feel safer behind their perceived lack of identity and thus freely flame, denounce things of which they have no knowledge, etc. Just by staying on a reasonable forum like this one you scare away 99% of the imbeciles 99% of the time, for the anonymous is a naturally cowardly creature.

Snipehamster wrote:At this point, I've more or less stopped caring about the characters because their actions no longer have consequences besides angst and the occasional bereavement or mutilation (which rarely has a long term effect). The uber-powerful Legate never registers as dramatic or a credible threat because in order to do so he'd need to seriously shake up the status quo. Something well-established as bloody hard to do.

PH is longer than the Bible at this point. Longer than the Harry Potter series. Why do we need to keep throwing in transformations, supervillains and revisions of the original when the focus should be on finishing the story before it becomes completely stale?

Can you give an example of a series in which the actions of the characters are more consequential than this one? Because from what I've seen, every significant decision made has altered the course of history in the Hoof. Cities have risen and fallen at Blackjack's whim, and been laid siege to for her word choice. The status quo is far from stable; the only thing I can think of which could be said to return to 'normal' rather than being changed forever by each trial or constantly progressing is the relationship between Glory and Blackjack.

Meanwhile, I don't see length as a point against. There are certainly stories where it is, where instead of a story being told it feels like a collection of meaningless, tacked together events (like, say, all those shitty shonen we were talking about), but for the most part I don't care if a story takes a thousand words or ten million to tell. I care about the story being told. And there are far more cases of a story being ruined by a rushed or early ending, either because of executive meddling or a writer simply giving up or believing their work to be stale, than there are of a story staying past its welcome and continuing after it should have finished. (Unless you count hollywood sequels, because those are generally pretty shit. Same with video games. But this is all one piece, rather than a real ending followed by a hamfisted attempt to say 'but wait there's more!')

The Legate isn't something tossed in because the writers didn't know what to do next and they refused to let the series die. Vitiosus is a continuation of things that started when we first saw Lancer, that built when we met Rampage and with every scrap we gathered of her legendary basis, that were foreshadowed in virtually every discussion of the Stars and their bargains with mortals, that was hinted at the first time we read the words 'Hoofington Rises'. He's not a trite feature delaying the ending, he is and always was a significant part of that end, of the rise or downfall of the Eater of Souls, Cognitum, and the Hoofington Core. This is the first time we've seen him, but we heard his name dozens of chapters ago and we saw the results of his actions in the very opening days of the story.

by O. Hinds Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:26 pm

swicked wrote:...I literally always seem to miss out on all of the good stuff.
What has been going on, what have snipe and somber been posting, and why does it sound like there's some sort of controversy going on?

The new chapter has produced some interesting disagreements and discussions thereof.

by Derpmind Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:43 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
swicked wrote:...I literally always seem to miss out on all of the good stuff.
What has been going on, what have snipe and somber been posting, and why does it sound like there's some sort of controversy going on?
The new chapter has produced some interesting disagreements and discussions thereof.

Big image:

Sorry, but it's funny so that's why.

by Kippershy Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:36 am

Well, inb4 that was genuine.
If it was genuine, I don't need to say a thing. If it wasn't, no-one will know anyway.

Also, wonder what Somber is going to do now the con is a riot.

by StoneSlinger88 Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:58 am

The Legate is obviously the biggest Bad around. He knows it, and anyone who's encountered him knows it. He's top of the food chain, always has been. I don't have a problem with him because he has always been so, but this is the first time we've got to see what he can do-- the fight was a show of force, peacocking his abilities for the heroes. He wants to appear powerful and unbeatable, show no signs of weakness, if his goal is to dissuade anyone from provoking another encounter he doesn't want, and that's including people from his own camp. He might not have wanted to fight BJ and associates, but since he was forced into it, why not take the opportunity to remind everyone why he's at the top with an excessive show of force. Maybe to remind zebras like Lancer that he will tolerate no insubordination.

by **RoboRed** Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:41 am

Kippershy wrote:Well, inb4 that was genuine.
If it was genuine, I don't need to say a thing. If it wasn't, no-one will know anyway.

Also, wonder what Somber is going to do now the con is a riot.

Huhwhatwhere?

by Caoimhe Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:48 am

Y'know, pretty much ALL FoE zebras are written as showy, intimidating and practically alien (yes, Xanthe too), so it would make sense that the Legate would be the showiest and unearthly of them all so far. I can't really think of one that was "moderate" except possibly Xenith... but she was a main character and we got to know her, though she still had that unponylike sense about her.

Zebras are all a bunch of weirdos, basically. If you need a character with curious motivations and unexplained behaviour, it's safe to make it a zebra and work out the details later as the protagonists attempt to understand their culture. It's also easier for the audience to understand it as "a zebra thing" and makes the following events more interesting.

I don't really see how the Legate's introduction can be taken so harshly in that regard, baring pacing issues at this stage which I can understand. We barely know any solid details of postwar zebra culture beyond the vague prophecies and star maiden stuff, which is what Somber is taking time fleshing out.

by Snipehamster Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:13 am

Sindri wrote:The new villain had a bunch of people calling ass pull or mary sue and comparing it to various bad shonen, because the Legate had abilities which weren't explained fully within the first few minutes of his appearance.

I call ass pull because the Legate's powers clash with more or less everything we've seen so far in FiM, FoE or PH. The lack of explanation for them is irrelevant (compare Rampage, whose powers went unexplained for ~35 chapters without explanation or objection); there's any number of potential rationalizations available. I compare the Legate's powers to shonen because that's what they closely resemble in both details and plot role.

There's also the fact that he's pulled an entire army of cyberzebras (it's hard to type that word with a straight face) out of his ass.

Sindri wrote:Can you give an example of a series in which the actions of the characters are more consequential than this one?

Proportionately to word count and not counting things that are immediately waved away or reversed a few chapters later (Glory's mine to the face and lost wing, P-21's lost forehooves, BJ's missing eye between 27 and 33 and amputated horn, Psychoshy's subplot, Stygius' subplot, etc)?

Almost any you may care to name.

Sindri wrote:Meanwhile, I don't see length as a point against. There are certainly stories where it is, where instead of a story being told it feels like a collection of meaningless, tacked together events (like, say, all those shitty shonen we were talking about), but for the most part I don't care if a story takes a thousand words or ten million to tell. I care about the story being told. And there are far more cases of a story being ruined by a rushed or early ending, either because of executive meddling or a writer simply giving up or believing their work to be stale, than there are of a story staying past its welcome and continuing after it should have finished. (Unless you count hollywood sequels, because those are generally pretty shit. Same with video games. But this is all one piece, rather than a real ending followed by a hamfisted attempt to say 'but wait there's more!')

Some might argue that PH should have ended at Chapter 16 (Deus' death and BJ's first real reconciliation with P-21) or Chapter 33 (Blackjack's death and final reconciliation with P-21). I put volume breaks after those chapters with good reason, after all. I'm not suggesting that PH should be rushed to its conclusion, but that it should be subject to a greater level of temperance and focus.

Sindri wrote:The Legate isn't something tossed in because the writers didn't know what to do next and they refused to let the series die.

Please don't act as if I don't have any idea of what I'm talking about.

Sindri wrote:Vitiosus is a continuation of things that started when we first saw Lancer, that built when we met Rampage and with every scrap we gathered of her legendary basis, that were foreshadowed in virtually every discussion of the Stars and their bargains with mortals, that was hinted at the first time we read the words 'Hoofington Rises'. He's not a trite feature delaying the ending, he is and always was a significant part of that end, of the rise or downfall of the Eater of Souls, Cognitum, and the Hoofington Core. This is the first time we've seen him, but we heard his name dozens of chapters ago and we saw the results of his actions in the very opening days of the story.

Yup. But is he nescessary (we already have the EoS, Goldenblood, Cognitum, Dawn, Steel Rain, Lighthooves, the Goddess, the Neighvarro Enclave and the Harbingers), is he likeable (as a villain if not as a person), and do we have a reason to care about what he wants or what happens to him? From my perspective (bearing in mind that I know his long-term role and goals), the answer to all the above is no.

by Kippershy Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:24 am

RoboRed wrote:
Kippershy wrote:Well, inb4 that was genuine.
If it was genuine, I don't need to say a thing. If it wasn't, no-one will know anyway.

Also, wonder what Somber is going to do now the con is a riot.
Huhwhatwhere?

Unicon turned into utter chaos as the event planners didn't do their jobs properly and "Somber" (unconfirmed but considered genuine) decided to do something extremely stupid.
apparently he decided to go to 4chan and whine / ask what he's supposed to do about PH regarding the hate.
might not have really been him, but it sure as hell had his style.

by Kippershy Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:30 am

Caoimhe wrote:Y'know, pretty much ALL FoE zebras are written as showy, intimidating and practically alien (yes, Xanthe too), so it would make sense that the Legate would be the showiest and unearthly of them all so far. I can't really think of one that was "moderate" except possibly Xenith... but she was a main character and we got to know her, though she still had that unponylike sense about her.

Zebras are all a bunch of weirdos, basically. If you need a character with curious motivations and unexplained behaviour, it's safe to make it a zebra and work out the details later as the protagonists attempt to understand their culture. It's also easier for the audience to understand it as "a zebra thing" and makes the following events more interesting.

I don't really see how the Legate's introduction can be taken so harshly in that regard, baring pacing issues at this stage which I can understand. We barely know any solid details of postwar zebra culture beyond the vague prophecies and star maiden stuff, which is what Somber is taking time fleshing out
.

on phone, can't help but butcher post. Anyway, just. Wanted to say I hamdle zebras a lot different than anything you've read and camobadger does too, mostly.

by Snipehamster Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:50 am

swicked wrote:Her missing eye always seemed like just a symptom of her taint sickness, though. When they rebuilt her, they should have just replaced her missing eye, I suppose... instead, they dug out both.

I was referring more to the fact that BJ's missing eye didn't inconvenience her in the slightest, when it should have completely ruined her ability to aim and was only included to demonstrate that she was falling apart due to taint. She lost the other eye to Steel Rain at the end of 32, not during the cybersurgery.

In hindsight, I'd have handled the post-tunnels stuff a little differently -- cut out the jelly legs and missing eye on BJ's part, making the taint damage more insidious (BJ is very well established as having a habit of keeping her problems to herself), and focus on Glory and the others until the 30s. At which point the eye tumor and screaming room make it abundantly clear that BJ is in serious trouble.

On the subject of 'Somber' posting on 4chan, note that there has been more than one user posting under his name along with at least one 'Kkat'. Unless Somber clarifies publicly whether or not those posts are his, I'm deeply skeptical.

by Kippershy Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:53 am

No no no, two different things.
Unicon failed because event polanners were paying as they went to rent the hotel. Ran out of money and tried to chuck everyone out. Apparently that caused massive chaos because travel plans and the like.

Somber supposedly visiting 4chan was something different. Because of all the recent fuss, he supposedly came to 4chan, found our FOE thread and began his self loathing, asking what the hell he's supposed to do, asking if he's supposed to just stop or something. Which then left him open to a lot of possible attack, which surprisingly was very mild compared to what has been said in the past.

by Stringtheory Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:03 am

Kippershy wrote:No no no, two different things.
Unicon failed because event polanners were paying as they went to rent the hotel. Ran out of money and tried to chuck everyone out. Apparently that caused massive chaos because travel plans and the like.

wait, what? how long ago was this?

by Kippershy Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:12 am

Unicon, yesterday some time around 6pm gmt was when it was brought up with me.

by Retl Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:24 am

Does Blackjack still have the damaged spritebot she bagged in chapter 30? I can't recall if it's been lost or used as scrap during the whole cyberaugmentation thing.

by Kippershy Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:31 am

Hell, I don't even remember the spritebot. Been too long.

by Stringtheory Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:42 am

Retl wrote:Does Blackjack still have the damaged spritebot she bagged in chapter 30? I can't recall if it's been lost or used as scrap during the whole cyberaugmentation thing.

pretty sure this is a case of What Happened to the Mouse, but who knows, now that you've brought it up, it might come back, play an important role, and have a tragic backstory Trollestia

by Retl Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:03 am

stringtheory wrote:
Retl wrote:Does Blackjack still have the damaged spritebot she bagged in chapter 30? I can't recall if it's been lost or used as scrap during the whole cyberaugmentation thing.
pretty sure this is a case of What Happened to the Mouse, but who knows, now that you've brought it up, it might come back, play an important role, and have a tragic backstory

Perhaps that particular spritebot was used late war in part of off-the-record memory orb research. In an attempt to create a new addon hardware derivative from SATS recharging tech that could cast the memory copying spells a magical radiation reaction caused the spritebot to effectively devour the researcher's memories and implement it within itself. Those memories because locked within a password that can only be unlocked via pipbuck, and the research is fated to wait and watch, carried along for the ride in hopes that maybe someone would discover the password and unlock the pony's consciousness until the fateful day it finally was scrapped.

The memory data, when accessed via terminal or pipbuck, could trigger some forgotten feature of EC-1101/Pipbuck/Blackjackpipleg which provides a perk giving a small boost to computer and broadcasting science skills.

Which in term saves all of Hoofington from becoming a fireball when solo Blackjack figures out a password to deactivate a ton of biomagical bale-taint-ervation-bombs scatted throughout the lands.

/silly
Or uh. It might have just disappeared from all of existence as you mentioned. Thanks for the link, didn't know of that trope. (Would be kinda neat if the bot does something, though.)

by O. Hinds Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:49 am

Snipehamster wrote:There's also the fact that he's pulled an entire army of cyberzebras (it's hard to type that word with a straight face) out of his ass.

Again, how? We know that an army of cyberzebras existed. Why is it hard to believe that part of that army was put in storage? Mr. House did it with an army of robots, and Silver Stripe shows that cyberization can keep organic components alive for that long.

Snipehamster wrote:Yup. But is he nescessary (we already have the EoS, Goldenblood, Cognitum, Dawn, Steel Rain, Lighthooves, the Goddess, the Neighvarro Enclave and the Harbingers), is he likeable (as a villain if not as a person), and do we have a reason to care about what he wants or what happens to him? From my perspective (bearing in mind that I know his long-term role and goals), the answer to all the above is no.

I've got about the same information, I think, and I rather disagree. Is he necessary? Well, perhaps not, but how exactly is postapocalyptic pony fanfiction needed for our survival? Better to ask if he's harmful to the story, and, while I'm aware that you disagree, I don't think that he is. I do, with the knowledge currently available to me, rather like him as a villain, and I do care about his goals and what happens to him.

Kippershy wrote:
RoboRed wrote:
Kippershy wrote:Well, inb4 that was genuine.
If it was genuine, I don't need to say a thing. If it wasn't, no-one will know anyway.

Also, wonder what Somber is going to do now the con is a riot.
Huhwhatwhere?

Unicon turned into utter chaos as the event planners didn't do their jobs properly and "Somber" (unconfirmed but considered genuine) decided to do something extremely stupid.
apparently he decided to go to 4chan and whine / ask what he's supposed to do about PH regarding the hate.
might not have really been him, but it sure as hell had his style.

Oh dear. I've written him to see what's going on.

by Snipehamster Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:25 am

O. Hinds wrote:
Snipehamster wrote:There's also the fact that he's pulled an entire army of cyberzebras (it's hard to type that word with a straight face) out of his ass.
Again, how? We know that an army of cyberzebras existed. Why is it hard to believe that part of that army was put in storage? Mr. House did it with an army of robots, and Silver Stripe shows that cyberization can keep organic components alive for that long.

Firstly, I think the very concept of cyberzebras is a bit silly - cybernetics are canonically incompatible with their usual methods of enhancement and cybernetic zebras are not evidenced at all in the original story, let alone in army-scale numbers.

Secondly, while they may well have been in storage, that simply begs the question of where, why, and why uberzebra hasn't seen fit to use them for 200 years. Even without his army, the Legate has demonstrated himself to be powerful enough to do more or less whatever he wants. "Because zebra religon" is a poor excuse for him holding back.

O. Hinds wrote:I've got about the same information, I think, and I rather disagree. Is he necessary? Well, perhaps not, but how exactly is postapocalyptic pony fanfiction needed for our survival? Better to ask if he's harmful to the story, and, while I'm aware that you disagree, I don't think that he is. I do, with the knowledge currently available to me, rather like him as a villain, and I do care about his goals and what happens to him.

Unnescessary content is harmful to the story pretty much by default, given that said story is already extremely complicated and long. See Hightower for a smaller-scale example of what happens when you put too many story elements in one place - no single one of those elements gets the attention it deserves.

At best, the Legate hogs wordcount that could be put into fleshing out more relevant and interesting characters like Cognitum (the closest thing we have to a recurring Big Bad at this point) and Dawn (who is intimately connected to the main cast by virtue of being Glory's mother), or pursuing the primary plotline (Project Horizons itself). At worst, he's that and an exercise in immersion-breaking slapstick, which is how I read him.

by Caoimhe Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:57 am

Well, what's the solution then? A lot of this seems to have turned into griping about previous events, which I haven't seen so much of in one place until now. Should the last chapter and all the work put into it be scrapped?

I understand the complaints but don't see a lot of concrete recommended action to be taken. Seeing how Somber tends to internalize criticism, not a lot of these complaints are presented in ways helpful to him, (barring the last part of your post with the direction the story should be headed in, Snipe).

by Guest Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:18 pm

Caoimhe wrote:Well, what's the solution then? A lot of this seems to have turned into griping about previous events, which I haven't seen so much of in one place until now. Should the last chapter and all the work put into it be scrapped?

I understand the complaints but don't see a lot of concrete recommended action to be taken. Seeing how Somber tends to internalize criticism, not a lot of these complaints are presented in ways helpful to him, (barring the last part of your post with the direction the story should be headed in, Snipe).

Code:: while (x = 0; x < 1000; x++) { System.out.printline(caoimhe.lastPost); } //AKA this x 1000 //I realize this could be better used as a method that takes someone's last post as an argument, but meh.

by Caoimhe Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:24 pm

You know what, all the wtfs about the Legate are also going through Blackjack's head right now. All she wanted was to move on and there's yet another mystery presented and nigh unstoppable villain in her way to make her question everything once again.

Perhaps that's the intent?

by Snipehamster Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:26 pm

Caoimhe wrote:Well, what's the solution then? A lot of this seems to have turned into griping about previous events, which I haven't seen so much of in one place until now. Should the last chapter and all the work put into it be scrapped?

I understand the complaints but don't see a lot of concrete recommended action to be taken. Seeing how Somber tends to internalize criticism, not a lot of these complaints are presented in ways helpful to him, (barring the last part of your post with the direction the story should be headed in, Snipe).

Ideally, (if PH were my story and such changes were feasible) there are indeed elements of PH, Legate included, that I would retcon out for the sake of simplicity and brevity. I'd also cut down on FoE revisionism, angst in general, and Goldenblood's influence on the personal lives of the main six. I'd also rework a couple of the main characters a little; playing up Rampage's more fun elements while reducing the load of gimmicks and traumas piled on Glory.

From a more realistic perspective going forward, I'd recommend cutting down on filler, emphasising resolution of existing issues, and a more focused drive towards the ending rather than the introduction of new villains, locations and subplots. Following that, once the story's done, I'd invite harsh criticism, suggestions and discussion with an eye to carrying out Past Sins-esque edits to address any major issues left over.

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