Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by Guest Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:07 pm

@Mr. Snrub
I agree with Hinds on that one; I read it in context of Pip and Spike's previous arguments over Watcher/Spike coming down to fight the good fight, with Spike saying he couldn't. His sentiments about that did not change despite coming for a quick trip to save Blackjack, which he was conflicted over. It's no direct contradiction, just an addition.

by Mr. Snrub Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:18 pm

I really shouldn´t lurk after i want to go offline, its a bad Habit.

Anyways, what you guys say aren´t arguments, its you telling me that i just INTERPRET Kkats canon wrong. I was told Somber did never break canon, so i made a example of a part where he did break canon. Then you told me thats just my headcanon. SO i showed proof it isn´t just my headcanon. And now you tell me im wrong because your Headcanon says otherwise?

I interpret that about being for an extended absence (a day or more, in this case). And Spike was anxious in PH about leaving even for the short time it took to collect Blackjack.

He also knew about Derpy and severall other ponys beeing held prisoner by raiders, but still he did not help them, besides probably Knowing Ditzy/Derpy himself. BJ on the other Hand he knew for what, a week?

by Sindri Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:33 pm

CamoBadger wrote:Don't call them stupid or slaves, because dogs want to be around us as much as we want to be around them...

Anyways, I'll just reiterate: I was wrong, I was using real-world logic, I will stop and go away now because obviously I don't know what I'm talking about.

A cheerful slave is still a slave and a well-adapted idiot is no more intelligent. I'm not saying that all dogs should return to the wild or demonizing the humans who keep them; they're adapted to their servitude, generally happier with it, and ill-equipped to survive without humans. That doesn't change the fact that an average dog comes about as close to intelligence as the tic-tac-toe AI I wrote in highschool because I was bored. Likewise cows and sheep, with domestic goats and horses being a small step up. And before you get too warm and fuzzy about how they evolved to live with humans and we're totally meant to be together, just remember that the only traits which evolution selects for are those which increase reproductive probability; anything they have that we didn't intentionally breed them for is there because it decreases the probability that they die before having sex and the reason they're so cute and sociable and similar to human kids is because we'd be killing them otherwise.

And real-world logic always applies in a well-written story; the basic rules of logic don't change at all with a species shift or the addition of magic. The problem is that you're thinking of Equestrian ponies as if they were dogs or IRL horses. They aren't animals, they're sentient and that puts them closer to humanity in behavior patterns than they are to any animal, regardless of physiological differences. Especially since the physiological differences between humans and animals, outside of the brain, the jaw, and the thumbs, are a lot smaller than most people tend to think. Well, and a few adaptations that followed the development of agriculture like our shitty digestive and immune systems and the fact that we pretty much never drop out of heat.

Mr. Snrub wrote:...what you guys say aren´t arguments, its you telling me that i just INTERPRET Kkats canon wrong. I was told Somber did never break canon, so i made a example of a part where he did break canon. Then you told me thats just my headcanon. SO i showed proof it isn´t just my headcanon. And now you tell me im wrong because your Headcanon says otherwise?

I interpret that about being for an extended absence (a day or more, in this case). And Spike was anxious in PH about leaving even for the short time it took to collect Blackjack.

He also knew about Derpy and severall other ponys beeing held prisoner by raiders, but still he did not help them, besides probably Knowing Ditzy/Derpy himself. BJ on the other Hand he knew for what, a week?

I kinda fall in the middle on this one. Spike never stated that he had not left, in the time frame where his meeting with Blackjack fell. There is no canon from Kkat saying that he didn't leave between the quoted meeting with Littlepip and his role in the final battle with the Enclave, merely interpretations of his character and what actions he would have taken. And if he had literally never left the cave, it seems he ought to have taken much more convincing than he did to get him to join that last big fight.

But if he were willing to leave for a few hours at a time? He's a full, true, Dragon. If he spent two hours out of every month fighting the good fight down below, he could save thousands, strike terror in the hearts of raiders and the like, and generally make the whole wasteland a much safer, kinder place, while leaving his lair undefended for all of a third of a percent of the time. That cost was unacceptable to him. So why did he break his pattern for Blackjack?

There is the regularity argument. If he had any sort of schedule, or even if he went out randomly but with no more than two months between trips the Enclave could wait for him to leave and raid his lair the moment he winged away, but snatching Blackjack was quick enough that they couldn't react to it. But that sounds sorta flimsy to me.

by Moodyman90 Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:36 pm

It's also pretty much stated that the Enclave are watching him. He saw potential in Blackjack to be a hero of the wasteland and didn't want her to throw her life away. Right after he got her the Enclave showed up. He can't just leave whenever he wants to without them showing up and asking why.

Littlepip meeting him in person comes after Blackjack's trip, and the fact the Enclave are watching him if he leaves the cave helps the reasoning why Littlepip had to go up there herself.

As for why he didn't save Derpy and the others from Raiders, Spike knows he's being watched and that action like that would draw attention to himself. Also not much he could have done other then fly down, destroy the library, his former home, and hope he can kill the raiders and not he prisoners in the process. Meanwhile, all he had to do for Blackjack is fly out, pick her up, and fly back. No big actions, no time wasted on fighting, no reports of the huge dragon on a raider rampage.

by Quotidian Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:45 pm

Why is it that these arguments get so involved and convoluted? I mean, PH will still be a good story even if Somber broke character to have Spike come and save Blackjack. One error, one OOC moment, doesn't reduce the whole thing to a pile of rubble, does it? Because if that's the case, nobody should write any fanfic ever. It's impossible to account for everything.

Now, I'm not trying to jump in and be a white knight in shining armor or anything, I think Somber's perfectly capable of taking legitimate criticism, but I don't understand how people can get stuck on what seem to me to be little details. It's got good moments and bad moments, and by my estimation a lot more of the former than the latter. Isn't that enough?

@Sindri: Gah. Stop being so insightful. >_>

@Ryx: You said a while back that you've stopped enjoying coming to these forums. I always like seeing your posts and your drawings, and I think it would be a shame to lose you from the comment crew, so I'll second Hinds' question. What's up and can I do anything to help?

by **CamoBadger** Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:48 pm

Sindri wrote:
CamoBadger wrote:Don't call them stupid or slaves, because dogs want to be around us as much as we want to be around them...

Anyways, I'll just reiterate: I was wrong, I was using real-world logic, I will stop and go away now because obviously I don't know what I'm talking about.
A cheerful slave is still a slave and a well-adapted idiot is no more intelligent. I'm not saying that all dogs should return to the wild or demonizing the humans who keep them; they're adapted to their servitude, generally happier with it, and ill-equipped to survive without humans. That doesn't change the fact that an average dog comes about as close to intelligence as the tic-tac-toe AI I wrote in highschool because I was bored. Likewise cows and sheep, with domestic goats and horses being a small step up. And before you get too warm and fuzzy about how they evolved to live with humans and we're totally meant to be together, just remember that the only traits which evolution selects for are those which increase reproductive probability; anything they have that we didn't intentionally breed them for is there because it decreases the probability that they die before having sex and the reason they're so cute and sociable and similar to human kids is because we'd be killing them otherwise.

And real-world logic always applies in a well-written story; the basic rules of logic don't change at all with a species shift or the addition of magic. The problem is that you're thinking of Equestrian ponies as if they were dogs or IRL horses. They aren't animals, they're sentient and that puts them closer to humanity in behavior patterns than they are to any animal, regardless of physiological differences. Especially since the physiological differences between humans and animals, outside of the brain, the jaw, and the thumbs, are a lot smaller than most people tend to think. Well, and a few adaptations that followed the development of agriculture like our shitty digestive and immune systems and the fact that we pretty much never drop out of heat.

I won't respond to this, it would only be me ranting angrily.

by AGurdel Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:51 pm

Bah, my "quick search" took longer than expected and everything has already been said. I put it in spoiler tags to keep the thread short, but it contains the wanted quotes and my interpretation.

Spoiler:

by Guest Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:16 pm

@Sindri, Camo
Dogs can be clever, for animals. In some ways, they have to be. However, getting any further into the far-reaching debates on animal and human intelligence (and the natural corollary of free will, urgh) is probably not going to be all that productive for either of you - in my experience, there's a lot of stuff that relies on how you interpret the evidence at hand, and what seems inherently absurd to one person might not seem so crazy to another (for instance, the Chinese room thought experiment).

@Mr. Snrub
Speaking of interpretations of evidence: that's rather the issue, though. Your interpretation of the evidence at hand is perfectly valid as headcanon, as is mine; but neither are definitively canon proper. For this reason, I can't agree that Somber diverted from canon in this instance (there are some where I think Somber did, but by that point neither story could be thought of as canon with the show, either, so it became somewhat of a moot point and did not affect my enjoyment of the story). Now, we could easily talk about which interpretation of Kkat's canon is more likely (Spike never left his cave for two hundred years vs. Spike occasionally made his presence known), and that could be quite interesting (why are the Enclave keeping such a close eye on his cave if he has never left it, where is he getting food [is that much stockpiled?], how did he gain access to the spritebots [this is interesting no matter the context]), but it wouldn't change the fact that there is room for interpretation here, and Somber took that room and interpreted.

by Sindri Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:03 pm

CamoBadger wrote:I won't respond to this, it would only be me ranting angrily.

Sorry, dropping it. Though if you do feel like going through the rant, and you think I'm wrong, could you PM me later about it? I hate being wrong, and I don't mind being called on my bullshit if I learn from it.

swicked wrote:...why does Lacunae shoot that rapist?
She sounds like P-21 with her "maintain appearances" speech. Lacunae always held back, hating herself, feeling unfit to judge. She hosts the collective guilt of an army of monsters, after all. The way she speaks here doesn't sound right to me.
I've never been an expert on Lacunae, but I really try to get into the minds of these characters, and I wouldn't of expected her to do this.
Psalm only killed under orders, after all. She was never a monster, just a very mislead person.

Lacunae always had a thing for suffering so that others don't have to though. If Blackjack killed him, she would beat herself up about it and slip further into despair. If she refused to kill him, future encounters would get worse because of her reputation, she'd guilt herself over being so weak she had to force P-21 to kill for her, etc. Lacunae pulling the trigger saves Blackjack suffering in both directions, and if it's one more thing Lacunae can never atone for, what's one more?

by Sindri Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:26 pm

swicked wrote:...then why did Lacunae kill the rapists the first time around?

Blackjack told her to let them go, to give them a chance to be better ponies. This one didn't.

by Sindri Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:32 pm

swicked wrote:
Sindri wrote:
swicked wrote:...then why did Lacunae kill the rapists the first time around?
Blackjack told her to let them go, to give them a chance to be better ponies. This one didn't.
Lacunae just did something against Blackjack's will. Why didn't she do the same, then? She knew these ponies would only hurt more people, just as she knew this one would.

I think there's a significant difference between 'she ordered me to not kill them and give them a chance to improve' and 'this one took that chance to get worse, she wants him dead, but she refuses to execute someone'.

by Cptadder Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:55 pm

Well back home, four pages to read and respond to, it's almost like the old ten pages per day....days..

by Stringtheory Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:40 pm

Cptadder wrote:Well back home, four pages to read and respond to, it's almost like the old ten pages per day....days..

that was with all the off-topic randomness included, now we live in a better more on-topic world

by XT Vengeance Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:16 pm

I think P 21 and Glory should be shipped. They would be cute together.

by XT Vengeance Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:20 pm

I mean, I'm just so sick and tired of the whole "Every main character in Fallout Equestria is either bi or gay!" shtick.

by Guest Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:24 pm

XT Vengeance wrote:I mean, I'm just so sick and tired of the whole "Every main character in Fallout Equestria is either bi or gay!" shtick.

I don't think "Because everyone else does it." is a legitimate reason to not like something.

by XT Vengeance Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:26 pm

That isn't my reason Last. You didn't even ask, by the way. My reason is that it makes no sense. I dislike it because it screams Mary Sue.

by Guest Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:28 pm

XT Vengeance wrote:That isn't my reason Last. My reason is that it makes no sense. I dislike it because it screams Mary Sue.

What does a character's sexuality have to do with being a mary sue regardless of what it is?

by XT Vengeance Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:30 pm

Last, if they are bi, like a lot of them are, then the author usually has multiple characters falling for them. It is a trope that has been used time and time again.

by Guest Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:31 pm

XT Vengeance wrote:Last, if they are bi, like a lot of them are, then the author usually has multiple characters falling for them. It is a trope that has been used time and time again.

But you said you had a problem with them being Bi or Gay. Not them being hit on constantly.

by **CamoBadger** Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:36 pm

To be fair, he has a point about characters being gay or bi. It annoys me a bit as well, simply because it is overdone in FoE. Lil'Pip and BJ I don't mind because that's only 2, but beyond that it gets rediculous. Seriously, what are the odds that P21 and Glory happen to be the ones with BJ and they're both gay?

And that's not even all of them. Sorry, but the ratio annoys me as well.

by SilentCarto Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:40 pm

Chapter 54 Comments:

Editing:

by O. Hinds Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:06 am

SilentCarto wrote:
Chapter 54 Comments:
Editing:

Thank you as always for your error corrections.

SilentCarto wrote:The bullshit fight with the Legate left a bad taste in my mouth, but that's mostly because he's a smug bastard who looks all set to get away with making Evil Overlord List mistakes that he really shouldn't be allowed to get away with. I'd love to see how well he regenerates after BJ feeds him a balefire egg.

Well, I don't imagine that he's had to worry about little things like "tactics" or "pleasing the assassins". Not with power like his. Of course, the little problem with that is that, if one relies on raw power to the extent that one no longer bothers with skill, and then that power is somehow removed... :)
(Now, I don't know that that's what's going to happen, and I obviously couldn't talk about this if I did know. My trope-sense is tingling, though.)

by Icy Shake Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:26 am

XT Vengeance wrote:Last, if they are bi, like a lot of them are, then the author usually has multiple characters falling for them. It is a trope that has been used time and time again.

That may--or may not--frequently be the case. But it's not a legitimate complaint in this story; by my recollection, Blackjack's history has been, in order: frustration at the difficulty of attracting willing partners in 99; a short something with Caprice, which ended with betrayal to Deus, and was (by my reading) primarily meant as a way of controlling her (Blackjack); a well-developed, organic romance with Glory; and casual sex with Stygius (who is, I believe, considered by some (many?) to be the most Sue character in Horizons). So I count a total of one instance of someone throwing himself at her in a way that might be objectionable in the way you describe.

Whether it's a worn trope doesn't matter; even if other works misuse LBGTQ characters, that doesn't imply that no one should make an effort to write them well--you need to argue that in this case, there is a problem. And I just don't see one.

On the issue of there being too many non-straights in the party to be believable (specifically P-21 and Glory), it's worth noting that his sexuality is arguably an important reason why he reacted so much differently to life in Stable 99 than most males (and/or an understandable reaction to it), and she comes from a society that strongly encouraged homosexuality. So given that you have a 99 escapee and someone from the Enclave (the latter of which was established by Kkat, not Somber), it hardly seems that unlikely, much less unbelievable, that both would be homosexual.

by Cptadder Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:30 am

Okay so much to read, going to limit myself to only one response, that for O.Hinds for the moment and only on one point. (Got tied up doing unimportant things like preventing my room mate from burning down the apartment)

But to respond to one point before I regain consciousness in seven hours, about Shattered Hoof, specifically something O.Hinds said.

O. Hinds wrote: How did Big Macintosh know exactly when and where to stand to catch a sniper bullet heading for Celestia? It's never explained.

What was Shattered Hoof? At it's core it was a peace conference at the area called Shattered Hoof agreed on between both sides. I don't if you ever been to a peace conference before, even the low down dirty two petty lords meet in an open field between armies kind of a peace conference. The point is that the conditions of such conferences are worked out before hand. Lots of diplomat ponies talk to lots of their counterpart Diplomacy Zebras to determine who, what, where and how. Unless one side is criminally negligent both sides send advance security forces to scout the ground and figure out where to place everything. Even in the days when we humans are still shitting in our own drinking water and bashing each other with lengths of iron we knew enough to do this. By all indications Shattered Hoof was not the first attempt at peace between both sides.

Which makes a pitched battle and a attempted kidnapping so psychotic, you just broke oath to attack a peace conference... why on Celestia's green earth (Who you have in your plan just kidnapped) would Luna agree to meet anywhere with any Zebra when they just prove utterly untrustworthy? And if the Zebras at the meeting were not in agreement with the Caesar why would the diplomat ponies not notice their normal counterparts are MIA.

This leads into my main point here, how did Big Mac knew to catch a bullet for Celestia?
Well in a sane world the setup we saw in chapter 54 would have never happened. There would not be that many soldiers, that well armed in that type of unknown ground without a single contingency plan in place. What was described in 54 was the Caesar saying "Hey lets have a peace negotiation in my territory, would you mind standing on this big X?"

In a more sane setup, how Big Mac can stop a bullet meant for Celestia is much simpler. Celestia is making her entrance, she gets down off her big gold chariot and walks towards whatever structure has been re-purposed or erected for the conference. All of a sudden Big Mac sees something, hears something, there's a scuffle in the Zebra ranks, maybe someone shouts gun (Because bringing anything other than holstered side arms to peace conferences is crazy, your perimeter teams carry the real stuff, close in make do with hooves and pistols). Whatever the reason he moves out of line with his fellow Mauraders and throws him in front of Celestia or at the gunzebra and takes the bullet meant for her and dies. How could it happen? The same way the Brezhnev attempt was made. The same way Regan was shot, in Brezhnev case the guards were fast enough on the uptake, in Regan's case not fast enough.

More in the morning sleep time.
Trust me I am going to reply to everyone, I just am in a odd place where I can read everything on the phone but not reply to anything until I get home then I instantly get distracted. Either way I'll catch up and respond to everyone in time.

by Quotidian Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:45 am

XT Vengeance wrote:I mean, I'm just so sick and tired of the whole "Every main character in Fallout Equestria is either bi or gay!" shtick.

And I'm tired of every movie Hollywood churns out almost exclusively featuring heterosexual protagonists in every action movie, romantic comedy, and drama they've churned out in the last thirty goddamn years.

Pip's a lesbian because Kkat is, as far as I know, a lesbian. I've got queer main characters because I'm queer. I don't want to be creepy and speculate about Somber, but from the amount of rainbows flying out of the collective asses of Project Horizon's main cast, I can guess. Do you honestly expect LGBT people to not write LGBT characters? Or do you think there's just not enough straight characters in popular culture?

by Guest Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:58 am

I know that I participated in this discussion, but this is the kind of off topic stuff that goes into the Chat thread.

by **CamoBadger** Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:02 am

Quotidian wrote:
XT Vengeance wrote:I mean, I'm just so sick and tired of the whole "Every main character in Fallout Equestria is either bi or gay!" shtick.

And I'm tired of every movie Hollywood churns out almost exclusively featuring heterosexual protagonists in every action movie, romantic comedy, and drama they've churned out in the last thirty goddamn years.

Pip's a lesbian because Kkat is, as far as I know, a lesbian. I've got queer main characters because I'm queer. I don't want to be creepy and speculate about Somber, but from the amount of rainbows flying out of the collective asses of Project Horizon's main cast, I can guess. Do you honestly expect LGBT people to not write LGBT characters? Or do you think there's just not enough straight characters in popular culture?

So if a writer is gay it means they should only write gay characters? That doesn't make any sense. Sure, it makes it easier for a writer to use a perspective they're personally more experienced in, but then why do so many men write from female perspective and visa versa? Characters should be as different from the writer as possible, otherwise they risk falling into the pit of making their character 'right' and any who disagree 'wrong' in that element. This was incredibly obvious in the original FoE, which was biased and sexist beyond belief.

I'm not saying it's horrible to see LGBT characters, but when a universe constantly has main characters sticking with that trend (and portraying bad relationships for the most part) then it gets old fast, at least to me.

by XT Vengeance Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:11 am

Quotidian wrote:
XT Vengeance wrote:I mean, I'm just so sick and tired of the whole "Every main character in Fallout Equestria is either bi or gay!" shtick.

And I'm tired of every movie Hollywood churns out almost exclusively featuring heterosexual protagonists in every action movie, romantic comedy, and drama they've churned out in the last thirty goddamn years.

Pip's a lesbian because Kkat is, as far as I know, a lesbian. I've got queer main characters because I'm queer. I don't want to be creepy and speculate about Somber, but from the amount of rainbows flying out of the collective asses of Project Horizon's main cast, I can guess. Do you honestly expect LGBT people to not write LGBT characters? Or do you think there's just not enough straight characters in popular culture?

And what does Hollywood have to do with what I said? Personally, I really don't give a damn what your orientation is. You should try writing characters that are wildly different from yourself. I am just frustrated that in about 90% of the Fallout Equestria stories the main characters are LBGT. The ratios are way off. But pardon me for having an opinion that is different than all of yours. I'll just stay out of here then.

by Quotidian Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:15 am

CamoBadger wrote:So if a writer is gay it means they should only write gay characters? That doesn't make any sense. Sure, it makes it easier for a writer to use a perspective they're personally more experienced in, but then why do so many men write from female perspective and visa versa?

That's not what I said. Or, not what I meant to say. I meant that you shouldn't be surprised when a story that has a gay protagonist attracts a lot of gay readers who then write their own side stories with gay protagonists. Admittedly, there's quite a lot of gay characters in PH and in the side stories at large, but I don't see how the fact that there's a greater than average concentration of gay characters should strike you as unrealistic when they characters in question are magical talking ponies.

CamoBadger wrote:Characters should be as different from the writer as possible, otherwise they risk falling into the pit of making their character 'right' and any who disagree 'wrong' in that element. This was incredibly obvious in the original FoE, which was biased and sexist beyond belief.

Wait, FoE was sexist? Did I miss something?

CamoBadger wrote:I'm not saying it's horrible to see LGBT characters, but when a universe constantly has main characters sticking with that trend (and portraying bad relationships for the most part) then it gets old fast, at least to me.

I think part of the reason the relationships are bad is that they're set in a shithole of a post-apocalyptic future.

But really, I can't tell you you're wrong, exactly. You find the prevalence of gay characters irritating. I find it refreshing. We both have differing, subjective perceptions of the stories in question.

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