[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Kattlarv wrote:@ Both (Psalm) No idea what CMFIS is tbh. But yes, I do judge her for it. If one blindly follows whatever for some reason, I will look down on them for it. Sure, ponies can actually see their deity, but relying solely on them for everything even when proven they deity can't help them, then clambers to anyone nearby offering "help" and doing whatever they say blindly is just... feh... for me.

CMFIS means Cutie Mark Failure Insanity Syndrome. Ponies who fail at something they're supposed to be good at seem to grow increasingly irrational and desperate unless someone else can snap them out of it. Pinkie did it in Party of One, Twilight in Lesson Zero, Applejack in Applebuck Season, Fluttershy in The Best Night Ever, Rarity in Suited for Success, and Rainbow Dash in Sonic Rainboom.

I am so woozy right now xD High on sugar and goddess knows what, so don't expect overly rational things. Will try my best though.

@OAC&Silent: Ah, okay. I see. Still... this made me ponder a bit: Going with first: Going with how old Psalm was, and the war started ~10 years or so after the "show" right? It would mean she either was born after Luna came back, or got her cutie mark after Luna came back. Alternatively, she swapped from Celestia to Luna in faith, what was her mark anyhow btw? Or is that unknown? Since logically, she should have been born during the war, since otherwise her cutie mark wouldn't make overly much sense or be needed. Why would a pre-war Equestria have or need her to have faith for Luna to fix the war, or stuff in general? (overall, kinda waste of talent if you ask me, even Twist has a useful war talent in comparison xD Since really "What is your talent? - To sit on my ass and hope someone else fix my problems!") Since as said, ponies adjusted and got different talents when "normal" things became less needed, like how they started to develop "gun talents" and etc. And as Pip said, harvesting/food marks became more common when cultivation was available again. Anyhow, this all makes her age rather fuzzy imo. But really, I see her as kinda fucked overall. Her talent is being a partially mindless sheep, and if she can't be that, she fully becomes a mindless sheep, doing her best to be a mindless sheep... I guess that kinda cause her to "peruse" her talent of being lead though... and unless I recall wrong, half the mane six's reaction to this was to do the opposite of it (Dash couldn't fly, so she had a nervous breakdown and stage fright... okay well, actually, only Dash did the opposite of it, and technically, she never really had a "breakdown", she just suffered from stage fright. Every other pony tried to "in some way" enforce their "talents", technically Twi just tried to do her assignment, that is a trait she got, her talent is magic. So technically, only Pinkie, AJ and Shy "forced" their talents. Or well, AJ just overworked.)

@Ketchup: I know the show "Extra Credits" have a "games you might not have tried", and in some of those, they have a few spaceship ones. I know one where you play with several friends, and control a capitol ship, one being the captain, one the engineer, one the pilot and etc.

Kattlarv wrote:
@Ketchup: I know the show "Extra Credits" have a "games you might not have tried", and in some of those, they have a few spaceship ones. I know one where you play with several friends, and control a capitol ship, one being the captain, one the engineer, one the pilot and etc.

Thanks.
I truly want to play Artemis now, it took some digging through that series, but it looks like a lot of fun. Not enough people to play with, though.

@Ketchup: You're welcome. And just try and harvest some from a pony meet up, or something.


Also, I think I might have messed up with not enough... something, found myself sniffing my own fingernails... whee!

I don't think a special talent of faith means being a mindless sheep, I think it has more to do with having the confidence to do what needs to be done because a higher authority that is inherently right tells you to. Psalm was helping in the college because Luna told her it was the right thing to do to help. Then, when she accidentally escalated the war, she suffered a crisis of faith. Since her special talent is faith, she got CMFIS which changed doing whatever is ordered because it is right to doing whatever is ordered because it is ordered. Also I think someone asked what Psalm's cutie mark is and I'm pretty sure it was a candle.

She stated her talent was to "have faith in Luna to fix everything". Or something like that. And I know in general, it ain't her fault she gets such technically worthless talent, but still can't help to be "meh" about it. Mostly since I dislike such people irl I guess. At least never had any good experience with any people like that. And ah, thanks for the possible cutie mark reminder.


And blah, why do I always do stupid things when tired? Just slip something small like not really wanting to live to a friend when chatting, and they get overly worried and stuff. Erf... ~17 more hours left and I can sleep... at least gotten stuff done today.

@Katt

As being without faith does not make you a reckless anarchist, having faith does not make you a mindless sheep.

We don't even know that this has anything to do with Psalm's talent. She said 'Faith.' That's a dodge. My translation: "I don't want to tell you. It has something to do with the word faith. Please don't ask me about it."

That doesn't tell anyone anything. Any assumptions we make about Psalm's mark are assumptions, and nothing more. So please hold the bitterness until we have some reason to believe that 'sitting on my ass' has anything to do with Psalm.

Kattlarv wrote:

All she said when questioned was "faith." Not faith in Luna, or in God, or in the government, just faith. And her cutie mark isn't a rulebook or an imperial edict or a sheep, or a holy symbol, it's a candle. Faith isn't mindless obedience. It's more... hope? Light? Confidence? Faith is what keeps you fighting when your squad is dead in the mud and you can no chance of success. Faith is what inspires you to teach others, allowing them to do better and improve their lives. Faith is what lets you set a person who tried to kill you free, what just might make them save your life later. Faith might not be as dramatic as magic or fire or even making sweets, but it's a powerful talent. Unfortunately, faith is also what lets you kill foals because you're sure it'll lead to the greater good.


I know you've had bad experience with the religious "faithful." We probably all have. But those people generally don't actually have much faith. They have self-righteousness and bigotry and laziness, not faith.

Faith in the hopeless time of the war was a pretty big deal.

Interestingly I thought for a bit that Psalm would have eventually become the AoD but I forgot she signed a 200 year lease in Trixie's psychic cerebrum sublet.

I know sleep deprivation is not an excuse, but do keep in mind I often ramble, even without being sleepy And I suck at explaining stuff. But anyhow, I primarily mean I dislike that certain type of "faith" people. The ones that rely more on some(in this case not unknown) entity to solve all their problems, and as soon as things go bad, they leap at the nearest offer to have someone else "take their responsibility". something my sleep addled mind recalls is that Psalm was rather desperate for "forgiveness", to not have to take responsibility for her actions, she did anything she was told if it promised her "salvation". She'd prolly rape a foal to death if it was part of her "duty/mission".

Do know when I ramble about something, I often only mean that specific, and related area. If I say I hate extremist religious people, I just mean those that are too stupid to handle having a relgion. Those that actually know how to use one, I have nothing against.

And I'm quite your description of faith could be replaced with "hope" or "morale/confidence" possibly, Sindri.

I might just be overly broken and battered, and it is possible I know the "wrong meaning" of the term "faith", but from what I know it means, it's a negative term for me mostly. And granted, she could be lying up her ass, but from I recall, she seems a tad bit naive to be doing that... I think that is the term. And what event made her flip again? Since if I recall, most others were "fine" near the end, or at least had more exposure to the fuckery, Psalm just seems to what my mind currently can make up, as one that "fell quickly", despite her talent being having extra much faith. Kinda like seeing the wis monk in D&D with everything put into will saves roll a 1 on about the first will save they come across.

Psalm could be part of another family order meme in the story. It would seem she was devoted to serving Goldenblood and found order in her devotion to Luna and later Big Mac's romperstompers (at GB's behest). It seems that (like Blackjack) she needed others for guidance. She's basically a weak follower to BJ's weak leader. Cutie mark talents like all our personality traits, have positive and negatives. I see Psalm's candle as a weak flame flickering for air.

Interesting because I thought initially she was more of a portrayal of the 'righteous warrior' with the sniper's prayer and all.

Cutie marks in general seem a dangerous 'thing' overall in this universe. Most of the characters try to avoid direct associations with their relations to their personality. Take Scotch for instance fearful of her gifts being reflected on her, so much that she regrets doing what her gift is.

I know I'd hate having a symbol representing screaming at people drunkenly with my brother in public on my ass.

Kattlarv wrote:And I'm quite your description of faith could be replaced with "hope" or "morale/confidence" possibly, Sindri.

Obviously, I cannot speak for Sindri. That said, I would agree that in some cases faith can share great overlap with hope or confidence. That said, there may be some distinction between the faith that you are doing the right thing or serving the right cause and the confidence that through your efforts you shall effect the outcome you wish. We probably haven't seen her special talent in great enough detail to determine the exact character of faith in that context, but faith by no means need be passive, and I believe that we can see that in her already.

Incidentally, I think that the symptoms of her CMFIS could potentially be interpreted as blasphemy or apostasy, two of the traditional vices opposite faith, depending on what you believe the "true faith" of Equestria would be. If, for instance, you believed that the world the Princesses worked for was one in which their little ponies were free to pursue their own desires, or decided right and wrong for themselves, or sought forgiveness primarily from any they had wronged--as opposed to from the Princesses--then you could make a case that her monomaniacal devotion was abhorrent to their ideals and represented, in fact, a lack of the faith that originally guided her. That said, I think it's absolutely obvious that by the end she was wracked by despair, one of the vices opposed to hope, so perhaps that's an argument that her faith may be more closely aligned with hope than belief, so to speak. It wasn't really brought up, but at this point why not just through in a shout-out to love/charity as the third theological virtue, which I believe Psalm ably demonstrates in her treatment of the zebra refugees, and is inverted in her cold, calculated, and callous position as a sniper and assassin, particularly as the world ended and she went down the OIA list.

Come to think of it, the theological virtues actually may make pretty good sense as a cutie mark talent (collectively) or talents (separately), as traditionally they are held to be given by the grace of God, rather than achievable by personal effort. It probably doesn't hold up too well with the wider themes of the show, or FOE's of finding one's virtue, or PH's of doing better.

Anyway, faith may be and is exhibited outside the context of religion. Perhaps it is better described as hope, but in my last chapter read-through, I posted this, which I feel to illustrate various of my points well: faith may be the confidence that you are on the side of justice; it (or hope) may be the depth of belief that you shall, ultimately and against any hardships, prevail; and it certainly need not lead to indolence in the wait for another to deliver you.

Perhaps a purer example of non-theistic faith (admittedly from fiction) is Edith Keeler, the social worker from "The City on the Edge of Forever."

Spoiler:

Also, just because I wanted a video link that's not a repost, here's some quality hope from the other good guy from the Big Three.

@The Pslam controversy
I think people are making mistake in thinking that Faith is the same thing as Belief

In my life I have met many people of faith in the religiosity sense but very few people of Faith in the true meaning of the word which is Trust.

To the dictionaries!

Webster wrote:Definition of FAITH
1
a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2
a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
Dictionary.com
Origin:
1200–50; Middle English feith < Anglo-French fed, Old French feid, feit < Latin fidem, accusative of fidēs trust, akin to fīdere to trust. See confide

Pslam has beliefs, everyone has beliefs but what Pslam has that most people of faith lack that those of Faith don't is trust. They don't just believe they... BELIEVE. So when Pslam says forgive me Luna she is not saying something just because she was taught it in Pony Religion class, she is literally asking Luna that she be forgiven for the life she has taken. I disagree with those that suspect Psalm was due to go up in a bell tower somewhere or become the next Angel. Someone of such deep Faith almost never snaps like that unless their Faith itself is shattered (Luna for example could to her face refuse to forgive her as one example on how to send Pslam on a quick train to crazy town).

But Pslam is noteworthy in not just having Faith but in obviously having a very broad Faith as it's clear from her origins she was a pacifist but her faith enabled her to transfer that Faith so her lack of action was a betrayal of her pacifism. If she did not fight then she was forcing some other pony to fight in her place. How the Ministry twisted this is clear, her Faith is rooted in the Princesses and Luna specifically after Celestia stepped down and anything that could threaten Luna needed to be dealt with. As long as her handler put the bare minimum of effort into cloaking things in the need to protect Luna I'm guessing Pslam would have killed foals and not taken any more joy or pain in it that shooting a charging Zebra with a sword aimed at her heart. Her rocks were the Princesses and while she had Faith in them, they were not perfect and never set down a Pony's rules of morality she could follow and when ever there was room to interpretation on what exactly her Faith demanded she do there was room for someone to twist it to their own ends.

Two things about Psalm... one, she's an orphan. She grew up with nothing; people in the orphanage were constantly coming and going. Even the orphanage personelle kept changing. So she desperately wanted something to believe in and something to belong to. A constant. Then something happened and she found something to believe in.

Two, most other ponies would consider her 'talent' something of a joke though. Her only magic was telekinesis. I think she and Little Pip would have been very good friends back in Stable 2.

Somber wrote:Two things about Psalm... one, she's an orphan. She grew up with nothing; people in the orphanage were constantly coming and going. Even the orphanage personelle kept changing. So she desperately wanted something to believe in and something to belong to. A constant. Then something happened and she found something to believe in.

Two, most other ponies would consider her 'talent' something of a joke though. Her only magic was telekinesis. I think she and Little Pip would have been very good friends back in Stable 2.

This is the kind've stuff we like to hear from you, from time to time.
No direct spoiler in the story; just a little bit of background information that might otherwise not have ever been known.
I can't see how it would've become important enough to be mentioned in the story, but it is lovely to know. Thank you.

Now that is an interesting bit of information so Pslam was an orphan which makes for an interesting career path to go from a pony with nothing to an assistant at Luna's school, wonder what bit of luck landed her that role.

And the second bit of information, she came late into her Faith in the Princesses, she did not come from a religious family... but exactly how Religious can you be when your Goddess are walking around and judging cooking competitions.

Cptadder wrote:Now that is an interesting bit of information so Pslam was an orphan which makes for an interesting career path to go from a pony with nothing to an assistant at Luna's school, wonder what bit of luck landed her that role.

And the second bit of information, she came late into her Faith in the Princesses, she did not come from a religious family... but exactly how Religious can you be when your Goddess are walking around and judging cooking competitions.

Very religious, potentially - think in terms of the New Testament era, maybe, and the disciples. Or Warhammer 40k, in some respects. Or Waco. It'd be different, probably, and I've not seen many churches (until after the war, leastways) so it probably wouldn't be organized, but it's certainly not impossible.

On a side note, I'd be interested in hearing Psalm's cutie mark story at some point. That could clear things up, potentially.

Well, from the way Somber phrased it I assume we'll be getting that story at a rather important moment in the future.

Having the Marauders get together and discuss their cutie marks is pretty much guaranteed. The Marauders are Somber's view into the the war as Fluttershy was Kkhat's view into the war. So we can expect such a framing device to be used either in Blackjack's increasingly fragmented mental state or as a memory orb as we still have one Marauder semi-unaccounted for. We know what happen to Macintosh's Marauders for the most part.
We know where Stonewing and Dorf ended up as experiments.
We know Twist is in Rampage
We know Big Mac died at the Ridge
We know Vanity died at Blueblood's manor
We know Pslam ended up in the Goddess (somehow)
We know Jetstream went to Roam
We know Echo is in EC-1101
We've had PoV's from every pony in the group except Echo so a memory orb from Echo or a direct memory via EC-1101 to get the cutie mark stories is a strong possibility.

*Edit
Small change to phrasing, we've been told Jestream went to Roam and we have excellent evidence the dealer is Echo but we don't have corpses for either of them unlike everyone else on the list (And Twist is a very mobile corpse)

Somber wrote:Two things about Psalm... one, she's an orphan. She grew up with
nothing; people in the orphanage were constantly coming and going. Even
the orphanage personelle kept changing. So she desperately wanted
something to believe in and something to belong to. A constant. Then
something happened and she found something to believe in.

Two,
most other ponies would consider her 'talent' something of a joke
though. Her only magic was telekinesis. I think she and Little Pip
would have been very good friends back in Stable 2.

Thanks. That actually clears up the need for/discovery of her special talent quite a bit. Though regarding ponies' view of her special talent, this just made wonder how they see other abstract talents. Say, for a moral philosopher.

"Interesting cutie mark. What's it mean?"
Well, let's give it a shot. "Oh, my special talent is thinking about the nature of good and evil and their relation to the pony condition."
"... Right, so what do you do again?" *glares skeptically*
Every single Celestia-damned time!

Cptadder wrote:Now that is an interesting bit of information so Pslam was an orphan which makes for an interesting career path to go from a pony with nothing to an assistant at Luna's school, wonder what bit of luck landed her that role.

And the second bit of information, she came late into her Faith in the Princesses, she did not come from a religious family... but exactly how Religious can you be when your Goddess are walking around and judging cooking competitions.

That was something that had occurred to me as well (if of course we limit faith to the religious sort), especially since Homage said that the deification didn't really happen, at least on a large scale, until after the sky was closed off . But if it was of a more general sort prior to her mental break, then it should probably work fine.

OAC wrote:Very religious, potentially - think in terms of the New Testament era,
maybe, and the disciples. Or Warhammer 40k, in some respects. Or Waco.
It'd be different, probably, and I've not seen many churches (until
after the war, leastways) so it probably wouldn't be organized, but it's
certainly not impossible.

Or the Prince Philip Movement on Tanna. Goes to show you can have a religion where [one of] your divine being[s] is walking around [halfway around the world], and never even tried to start a religion around himself.

I am loving your explanation, swicked. That gives a lot of things to think about! Analysis makes me giddy. :)

In other news I have two interviews left with pony fans around town and then this thing I'm working on is complete. Not sure if they'll publish it now or wait till the next issue (when a bunch of us are having columns put together for a retrospective on what college kids who stayed in our great city did over the summer for fun.

swicked wrote:To me, psalm's talent is more of an inability to doubt. She is capable of unquestionable loyalty, trust, devotion, faith, what have you. Once her faith is given, like a candle that will burn bright through an endless darkness against a ceaseless tempest, she will go on, carrying out any task, witnessing or experiencing any hardship, incapable of second-guessing her actions.
It makes sense that she is capable of the post-bomb slaughter, killing without hesitation or doubt. This perversion of special talent makes her the perfect soldier, unwavering and absolutely incapable of reason.

Wow. Apart from, perhaps, the "inability" part, that's almost a perfect summation of my feelings regarding her talent, expressed far more eloquently than I could hope to.

2 things I noticed.
The PH group is gone.
And, there is a troll afoot.

Yup. Ignore the troll, but the owner of the forums, Corona, stepped in and deleted our group cause it was useless.

Mmk, that'd explain it.

RIP
Project Horizon's custom group
July 17th 2012 to July 17th 2012

"You guys were kinda useless"

I was there and will Never Forget.

You, sir, are hilarious.

M'am. :P

Caiomhe wrote:I was there and will Never Forget.

I was there for both it's inception and it's eventual destruction. You are right, I shall Never Forget.