Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by Ketchup Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:40 pm

swicked wrote:I really don't get y'all's endgame with this expulsion thing.
Okay, so the kid is expelled, now what?
What do you DO with them?
Is that really it? Do we just assume the parents they might not even have are going to get them enrolled in another local public school that might not even exist?
Or do we just send them straight to a youth detention center to try and head off the crimes they are certainly going to commit now that they have no other opportunities left to them?

I'm seriously confused how "Oh, just kick out the kids who don't want to play ball." is a solution.

Edit:
ketchup504 wrote:Yeah. People don't seem to understand that school isn't a prison, or a punishment, but is for our benefit.
It wouldn't hurt if they had the capacity for some form of effective punishment, though. It'd certainly be a better solution that trusting the parents to get these children back on "the straight and narrow" considering said children already turned into delinquents under said parents' watch.

The problem seems to stem from somebody not caring. A separate education facility would be ideal for delinquent children(IMO), but since most places don't have/aren't willing to build such institutions, they are still stuck in with the rest. Punishment measures at schools are limited, to say the least, and parents either turn a blind eye/don't care or believe lies and dismiss reality.

by Guest Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:50 pm

swicked wrote:

The answer is probably gonna end up being chemicals. I've seen what Ritalin can do, and it's frankly terrifying. If mind-altering (I'll speak to the actual intention and say mind-controlling) substances aren't already an important part of the education system, I anticipate that they soon will be, barring intense legal pressure/moral outrage. The implications aren't pleasant, but I do think it'd fix a lot of problems. I'd call the program "gentle conditioning" or something. Ugh. I know where this leads. But it probably would solve things. Create other issues, too, of course. Different ones, maybe easier to deal with than cultural bankruptcy.

Somber wrote:

Sweet! Thanks for the update!

by OneMoreDaySK Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:04 pm

@somber
Thanks for the update, and gratz for a full year.

@school That's the unfortunate thing; not enough people care to do much about it. Kicking them out just condemns the kids as delinquents, and it's too costly to try to get the facilities necessary to work with them.
Also, chems? Just bringing up that option reminds me of Fluttershy's MoP rehabilitation methods.

by Meleagridis Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:47 pm

swicked wrote:What do you DO with them?

In a word, yes. The resources required to deal with problem children (not just money, but time and attention) adds up to a total sum that is infeasible no matter which way you slice it. The econosolution would be to kick out everyone who would affect the learning experience of self sufficient students and put them somewhere they will have the least direct drain on school resources. It's also about as humane as carting our slow learners and troublemakers into cattle cars and shipping them to Antarctica.

Now looking at the problem from a human being's perspective...

The biggest problem is that kids don't want help. What they're doing works for them and it doesn't have to get complicated and involve others. Schools are getting better at providing the councillors and things that students need to help themselves, but it isn't as if the councillors are going to start stalking them in the halls to identify and eliminate their behavioural issues. Why would a bullied kid go to a councillor if he's already learned the best hiding places? Why would a bully go to them if he can get whatever he wants by taking it?

by O. Hinds Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:20 pm

Kattlarv wrote:@Everypony: (Equine anatomy) Hum, just had some twisting conflict with information. Apparently stallions might be able to get hard after all. (which again, brings back the breaking of tissue for males, and more ouchies for females. Almost feel obliged to actually research into this now, just to know which one is correct xD

I'm rather surprised that you haven't already.

Kattlarv wrote:@Feather: Ah, I see. Well yeah, wouldn't too much of a surprise. Also, were their crusader group female only? I forgot. (no, it ain't about that, just forgot)

Scoodle's group? I think so.

re school discipline: [DELETED]
Eh, actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that that probably was quite a terrible idea. Mental note: don't try to come up with drastic changes to the education system before breakfast.

by Icy Shake Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:41 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
re school discipline: [DELETED]
Eh, actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that that probably was quite a terrible idea. Mental note: don't try to come up with drastic changes to the education system before breakfast.

You're probably right. I can only speak to the US, but let's remember that there is intense paranoia regarding the indoctrination of children in this country; see for instance the time President Obama visited an elementary school, some of the students sang something, and that exploded into a media frenzy claiming that the school was doing Maoist training for deference to the State and the Leader or some such BS.

Regarding the problem itself: the first step would be to develop a consensus that bullying is actually a bad thing, always. That consensus does not by any means exist in the United States. How you would go about doing this is a mystery to me.

by O. Hinds Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:47 pm

Icy Shake wrote:Regarding the problem itself: the first step would be to develop a consensus that bullying is actually a bad thing, always. That consensus does not by any means exist in the United States. How you would go about doing this is a mystery to me.

...See, this is another reason why I shouldn't be trying to design educational reforms. Really? How is there not a consensus that bullying is bad? Is there also some hidden argument about the color of the sky, perhaps? Or the wetness of water?

by Admiral Stoic Rum Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:10 pm

Oh oh oh had an experience thought I would share it shoeing horses...[YouTube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKlBbZmtvR8&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/YouTube]

by FeatherDust Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:11 pm

SilentCarto wrote:"You're out of control, Go Fish! The Overmare's been -- well, the Overmare is very upset with you.

It took me a minute to realize why he didn't want to finish that line. Snrrk.

Don't explain the joke:

by Admiral Stoic Rum Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:17 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:Regarding the problem itself: the first step would be to develop a consensus that bullying is actually a bad thing, always. That consensus does not by any means exist in the United States. How you would go about doing this is a mystery to me.
...See, this is another reason why I shouldn't be trying to design educational reforms. Really? How is there not a consensus that bullying is bad? Is there also some hidden argument about the color of the sky, perhaps? Or the wetness of water?

The problem lies in a consensus and mentality that the victim obviously brought it upon themselves to be bullied. Then there is not to mention the lack of actual consequence of bullying.

by Cptadder Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:19 pm

FeatherDust wrote:
SilentCarto wrote:"You're out of control, Go Fish! The Overmare's been -- well, the Overmare is very upset with you.
It took me a minute to realize why he didn't want to finish that line. Snrrk.

Don't explain the joke:

It's a genre staple that all police chiefs must shout that line at the new buddy cop pair.
See 10 minutes 35 seconds for the classic South Park take on cop movies.

by FeatherDust Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:21 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Kattlarv wrote:@Feather: Ah, I see. Well yeah, wouldn't too much of a surprise. Also, were their crusader group female only? I forgot. (no, it ain't about that, just forgot)
Scoodle's group? I think so.

They were all female after BJ rescued them for the simple reason that the raiders murdered all the boys.

Chapter 2:
"These children had been captured, tortured, raped, and had watched some of their colt friends get killed, and here I was scared of the sky!"

by SilentCarto Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:35 pm

Somber wrote:Hopefully out by the 4th...

Noooooooooo...! I don't know if I can enjoy fireworks with PH waiting for me!
...on the other hoof, fireworks might make a really accurate soundtrack for Hightower...

ketchup504 wrote:I looked Urza's Rage up, and I think I've seen one before in my sister's boyfriend's MtG binder. And can't "walls" not attack? I don't think they can. Maybe some of the flying walls can? Or were you using "wall" as a nickname for a high-defense creature?

That used to be the case. Walls were not allowed to attack, which made it the only creature type that had a rules effect. Now they've retconned all walls with the Defender quality, which specifies that they can't attack.

swicked wrote:I really don't get y'all's endgame with this expulsion thing.
Okay, so the kid is expelled, now what?
What do you DO with them?

Well... my district had an intermediate "high security" facility they could be moved to before the district washed their hands of the kid completely.

by Kattlarv Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:44 pm

@Ice: I did not just spend way to many skill points, feats and talents in being able to do things like that, and not do them xD

@Ketchup: Okies. And no, walls cannot attack. It was still an angry flying wall with reach, first strike and vigilance and more, (the joke was that it had sluggishness) we were bored one time and decided to enchant a wall someone had. It was hilarious up until they played: http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG4TH/animate_wall.jpg we did not know this card excisted xP

@O.Hinds: Yeah, I guess I should have huh? [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion 4206338362

[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion 4206338362

And hum, okay. Were just a bit unsure. I just had a vague pondering that they had one or two, but then again, I don't even recall how many they were heh.

@Feather: Ah, okay. It did just say "some", but it could've been all. Still, this was before I came in here and flailed my logic stick. So I don't mind it so much as I could, since even despite the revision. It could still have been a thing they could've done. And I'm leaning towards having another late night rambling. So will go to bed for once. Got a mareathon to lead tomorrow. And feh, I need to finish my stuff and get it out of my system.

by Guest Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:54 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:Regarding the problem itself: the first step would be to develop a consensus that bullying is actually a bad thing, always. That consensus does not by any means exist in the United States. How you would go about doing this is a mystery to me.
...See, this is another reason why I shouldn't be trying to design educational reforms. Really? How is there not a consensus that bullying is bad? Is there also some hidden argument about the color of the sky, perhaps? Or the wetness of water?

From following the news on several anti-bullying laws, I'm pretty sure it's at least partly because some people think bullying is a staple of Christianity. And some of those people think that's a good thing. Basically, they're totally against bullying, unless it's bullying of population groups that they view as evil, in which case it's their god-given right to train their kids to beat the shit out of said group. And this thinking pervades the government in some states. Don't try this with any other religion, though; I've been advised by polisci majors that Cthulhu worshipers aren't actually allowed to sacrifice people twice a day to the squid-faced dragon, despite this being a clear tenet of m- uh, their faith.

On a definitely unrelated note, you guys can give me an alibi for last night, right? Crazy

(yesI'mjoking)

by Guest Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:22 pm

swicked wrote:
...not entirely sure I follow you on that one.
I mean, yes, clearly if it's bullying against homosexuals or something else Christians traditionally disproportionately flip out about, sure, but bullying is hardly that limited in scope.

They've blocked anti-bullying bills in states solely because the measures would include anti-homosexuality bullying. It kinda sucks.

Edit: Also, the example was to provide an example of how "bullying = always wrong" doesn't always hold up for everyone.

by FeatherDust Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:35 pm

Kattlarv wrote:@Feather: Ah, okay. It did just say "some", but it could've been all.

I took it to mean "some of their colt friends; all of the ones they had with them at the time". There's other crusader colts who weren't there and thus aren't dead.

by SilentCarto Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:35 pm

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:They've blocked anti-bullying bills in states solely because the measures would include anti-homosexuality bullying. It kinda sucks.

I don't know if I believe that without some serious evidence. How on Evolution's green earth would you phrase that argument to even remotely not come out like "we're gigantic bigots"?

by Cptadder Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:38 pm

swicked wrote:
Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:
swicked wrote:
...not entirely sure I follow you on that one.
I mean, yes, clearly if it's bullying against homosexuals or something else Christians traditionally disproportionately flip out about, sure, but bullying is hardly that limited in scope.
They've blocked anti-bullying bills in states solely because the measures would include anti-homosexuality bullying. It kinda sucks.
Gezz, seriously? That REALLY sucks :(

Here's an old Christian Science Monitor story about the issue. The CSM can be surprisingly neutral considering it's name but then you must remember it's a newspaper for a religion with over thirty thousand recognized denominations (As in separate Church groups) and 72 major sects (As in they believe something different than other groups) and the CMS tries to be the news source for all of them.

Point is there are well funded right wing religious groups that fight anti-bullying legislation because it will get their activities labeled as bullying. For example one popular tactic is basically mob peer pressure in one of my old high schools where five to nine Christian students would get together and corner one of the very few (This was still the 90s) openly gay students and basically tell them how sinful their life was and that they were going to hell and would you not like some literature on how wonderful our church is and how loving it is you dirty homosexual you. Asking openly gay kids who had molested them to make them so (A popular belief in some circles is that all gays come directly from a undetected child molestation)

But why listen to me, why not read some of the words of the very people leading these groups!
Sourced to RW Watch who pulls these quotes here

Barber: You know there used to be a time when we arrested middle aged men who got their jollies talking dirty to children, well Dan Savage does that for a living.... This is a forty-seven year-old self-identified homosexual who advocates publicly, he advocates what he calls non-monogamy, he advocates having the occasional three-way tryst, this is a guy who is a sex columnist who MTV has given a platform to reach out to our children and to put this poison in their minds.

…

Staver: What he has done here and what I think this really unmasks is what ultimately is behind some of these anti-bullying laws: it is reverse bullying, it is the opportunity to use a club to people who are Christians or have moral convictions with regards to homosexuality or any kind of deviation outside of normal sexuality. Anybody who believes that sexuality outside of normal sexuality with a man and a woman in a husband and wife relationship will ultimately be the target of bullying, they will be ridiculed, they will be attacked, they will be punished, they will be sent to the principal’s office, they will be disciplined, they will be suspended, they will be ultimately forced to accept that agenda and that was exactly what was unmasked here with Dan Savage.

by Cptadder Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:43 pm

swicked wrote:
I don't know if I believe that without some serious evidence. How on Evolution's green earth would you phrase that argument to even remotely not come out like "we're gigantic bigots"?

...it's not against the law to be a bigot. Hate speech is legal. Freedom to protest, freedom of speech, etc.
We're not the UK...[/quote]
Incitement to violence is still illegal which is why in the US you can tell a gay person they are going to hell to be violently tortured for all time and be legally okay. But say that "someone" should send that gay person to hell will get you arrested. As well we have harassment laws so you can't follow around gays telling them they are going to hell but you could go on the radio and say that day in day out and be okay. The more specific you get the quicker you get into trouble.

by FeatherDust Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:52 pm

SilentCarto wrote:Well... my district had an intermediate "high security" facility they could be moved to before the district washed their hands of the kid completely.

Silent and I went to the same school. As far as I'm aware, SC, they never ever actually expelled anyone. Once you got sent to that center, that was kinda the end of the line. From what I heard, you could fingerpaint with your own bodily secretions and they wouldn't throw you out.

Still, there were definitely people I knew that should've been over there at least for one year to get their heads on straight, and they never got anything worse than detention or "in-school suspension". I mean, I know being sent to the Center was a really huge "big stick" to swing, so they weren't gonna do it for anything minor. Still... I had one day of ISS one time for fighting*, and it wasn't that awful as far as I was concerned. Did my work, read my book, it was actually pretty peaceful. It didn't seem bad enough to be the worst punishment available short of going to the Center for the rest of the year.

* It was in middle school. A guy jumped me from behind in the locker room (he was a dick, and we'd had an argument when he got too rough playing basketball) and punched me in the back of the head hard enough to bounce my head off the locker, then tried to put me in a headlock and learned why that's a really bad idea. (I had my combo-lock in my hand. The shackle went around my middle finger and I brass-knucked him in the spine until he let go.) I'm sure I was being an obnoxious twit, because I was one at that age; still I don't think being assaulted while you have a teeshirt over your head warrants a punishment. Whatever. The coach just didn't want to deal with it, and the office assumed that if the teacher sent you up you were at fault one way or the other.

by SilentCarto Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:03 pm

Valikdu wrote:

[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion Boop10

by Scootayay Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:07 pm

Happy birthday Project Horizons!

I started reading when chapter 31 came out and quickly got hooked. PH beats everything I have read before, including fully fledged Books.
It currently clocks in at a whooping 904.647 words (according to libre office) and I loved every single minute I spent reading.

Congratulations to Somber, O. Hinds, Bronode and Snipehamster on the one year anniversary, keep up the great work! I am eagerly awaiting what you have in store for us in the future.
Stay strong and believe in yourself Somber!

SilentCarto wrote:

Cute as hell

by Admiral Stoic Rum Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:13 am

One year celebration!

Yay i was relevant

by 222222 Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:58 am

Hi guys, finally tracked down the current actually being used PH forum and just in time for the one year anniversary to boot, woot. Anyways just speed read the last twenty or so pages of comments to get caught up and I can say I'm glad I finally found this forum. Can't wait for the new chapter Somber, keep up the great literature.

by Sindri Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:33 am

Erumpet wrote:Hi guys, finally tracked down the current actually being used PH forum and just in time for the one year anniversary to boot, woot. Anyways just speed read the last twenty or so pages of comments to get caught up and I can say I'm glad I finally found this forum. Can't wait for the new chapter Somber, keep up the great literature.

Finally? Have all the signposts gotten buried again? Right, time for me to delve back into the depths of ID and leave another marker pointing the way here to wayward travelers, until such time as it becomes lost again and I can't be arsed to fix it.

Edit: the main EqD story page had a piece of fanart I don't think I've seen before: http://pantzar.deviantart.com/art/Lacunae-In-Lingerine-310667607

by RandomBlank Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:08 am

Allow me to quote http://lacigreen.tumblr.com/post/26370646958
I do believe this is origin of all the problems.
[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion Tumblr10

[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion Tumblr10

[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion You-ar10

by Kippershy Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:30 am

RandomBlank wrote:Allow me to quote http://lacigreen.tumblr.com/post/26370646958
I do believe this is origin of all the problems.

Saw this posted on julieps tumblr just yesterday, lol.

by Kippershy Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:32 am

Erumpet wrote:Hi guys, finally tracked down the current actually being used PH forum and just in time for the one year anniversary to boot, woot. Anyways just speed read the last twenty or so pages of comments to get caught up and I can say I'm glad I finally found this forum. Can't wait for the new chapter Somber, keep up the great literature.

Welcome on in. Glad to have you around!

by Quotidian Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:39 am

So there's a liquor store within easy walking distance from where I live...

Spoiler:

RE: Project Horizon's one year anniversary:

Jeez. It's been a year already? I'm not sure where I dropped in any more. I think it was somewhere around chapter... sixteen? All I remember is thinking that there was no way this could measure up to the original Fallout: Equestria, and then somewhere around chapter six realizing that I should have been in bed two hours ago and deciding that reading the next chapter was more important than sleep.

I know that by now, some people are probably getting a bit of story fatigue. Somber has expressed concern over the length of PH several times. Ultimately, how long it takes to get to the conclusion is up to Somber and the editing gang, but I thought I'd at least mention that I'm in no hurry to see Blackjack reach the end of her story. Project Horizons is a hell of a story, and watching it unfold as it's being written has been pretty damn awesome.

Somber wrote:Anyway, I have a thing this afternoon, so we'll be brushing tomorrow. Hopefully out by the 4th... or 5th. Sorry for the delay. Things are still hectic right now.

I hope that "thing" is job/survival related. I mean, I love PH, sure, but your well being comes first. I can only hope you haven't heard words to that effect ten thousand times in this thread, because it's true. We all want you safe, secure, and happy. PH is secondary.

RE Ryx's anniversary drawing:

Please. Stop. My body can't take any more adorable. You're beginning to chip away at the hard, icy shell surrounding my heart and it scares me. (Seriously, don't actually stop. Your art gives me feels, and I like it.)

RE Teh Ghey Agenda:

Dammit! How come I haven't gotten my copy!? I've submitted the requisite papers and everything!

So. These two are off topic, and I wouldn't ordinarily mention them, but I'm drunk off my ass so here goes.

Offtopic:

First: Anyone read Stormfront? It's the side story I started... oh... not quite a year back. I pretty much gave up finishing it because I ran into a plot related block that kept me from taking it in the direction I wanted to (and also I'm a lazy bastard). But I think I might have resolved the problem. Has anyone read it? Is anyone genuinely interested in me continuing? (Yes, I know this is shameless self-promotion. Too bad I have no shame.)

Second: Anyone else make up faces in their heads for the people that post in this thread? I can't really help but construct (completely inaccurate) pictures in my head of what everyone looks like. Ryx is short, scrawny, and adorable. Somber is slightly stocky, middling height, and bespectacled. Swicked is (for some goddam reason) a fairly well build blond fellow of Norwegian descent. Hinds... is just a giant floating label with "British" written on it. Don't ask me, I don't control my imagination.

Anyone wishing to visualize me while reading this post should just picture Jim from the American version of The Office, except taller, skinnier, and with short hair and a stubbly beard.

(Yes, I am aware that all of this mental conjuring is no doubt incorrect, and that my mind is a bizarre and terrifying place. That's not the point.)

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