[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

It isn't random in the big image of things. It's entirely random when considering single units. It isn't like suddenly all plants change to produce sugar and oxygen. It's that from multiple plants that due to various mutations were producing cyanide, calcium, petroleum, hydrogen, and all kinds of useless and harmful substances, the ones that began producing sugar actually thrived and grew stronger than others, thus their offspring displacing the standard sulfur-breathing ones.

Derpmind wrote:But yes, Hinds is definitely from the British dimension.

…This is hilarious. I mean, I don't even use colour and defence instead of color and defense, and, yet, despite working only from text, two people have already mistaken me for British.
Adding to the hilarity is the fact that, well, half the team is British.


Also, thank you to those posting defenses of science (and space programs); you've spared me from trying to assemble one before breakfast and while I'm trying to get ready for brushing.

Source

Derpmind wrote:
Source

WHO HAS BEEN READING MY PERSONAL MESSAGES TO RYX?

O. Hinds wrote:

Derpmind wrote:But yes, Hinds is definitely from the British dimension.

…This is hilarious. I mean, I don't even use colour and defence instead of color and defense, and, yet, despite working only from text, two people have already mistaken me for British.
Adding to the hilarity is the fact that, well, half the team [i]is[/is] British.

So... what, are you from Space Australia?

RandomBlank wrote:Thing is, thermodynamics applies to minimal scale, like gas, matter. It fails in total macroscale...

A star is actually a perfect example of entropy. You start with a fuckton on potential energy in the existing material and structure. Then it throws off light and heat in massive quantities, scattering them across the black indiscriminately. A star is constantly, and very rapidly, transforming matter and energy from an orderly, "useful" state to one what is completely useless, and driving itself toward the inevetable heat death of the universe. The good news it that it has so much energy in it that it'll take billions of years to waste enough that we'll notice a change, and along the way there are enough useful side effects to make it beneficial in the (cosmic) short term. That's all entropy is: the constant overall shift from forms with many uses toward simple background heat. No process can ever be 100% efficient, because no matter how useful whatever you're doing is there will always be some energy lost, transformed into heat and sound and other forms that get scattered across the universe and never used again.


Things don't move toward "simpler" forms, or less "orderly" forms, they simply move toward lower total energy states. Take a glass of water sitting on a table. Or actually, a glass of mercury because I don't want to deal with evaporation. A tipped over glass and a pool of spilled mercury is a lower energy state. If the glass falls to the floor, that's even lower. If there is any activity in the system, there is a (very small) chance at any given moment that the glass will be tipped over or the table will collapse. There is basically no chance of the reverse happening. Thus at any given moment, the cup will probably stay where it is, despite the high energy state, but as time approaches infinity the chance that the cup will fall to the floor and the liquid will form a pool in the lowest available area approaches certainty, if no energy is added to the system from outside.

With a living creature, the same rules apply, but energy is constantly being added. You can't claim that creatures will constantly evolve toward a simpler state, because a simpler creature isn't actually notably lower energy than a complex one. The entropy in this case comes in the form of body heat; a creature needs to constantly consume whatever its preferred energy source is (sunlight, geothermal vent, samvitch, radioactive fallout, whatever), and will constantly produce heat from the inefficiencies in its metabolic processes. Every moment we're alive we shift energy toward less useful forms and scatter it across the black, just like a star does. And if you take away our source of energy we stop moving, collapse, decay, etc. but as long as it keeps coming and nothing else breaks we'll continue to do so for a long time. And since that energy source is, ultimately, the sun? Until enough billions of years have passed and enough energy has been thrown off into space for it to change how it works, we're not going to run out, and we can increase local energy and complexity as much as we want because the universe is still heading downward, and the waste we cast off is insignificant compared to the input from above.

Kippershy wrote:To me, things like the LHC are just a silly waste of money to try understand something that actually doesn't have a practical use.
We should be instead focusing money and effort onto how to improve the world around us for all peoples, rather then trying to understand some science which has no application.

Do radios communications have a practical use? How about genetically engineered crops that are resistant to disease and more nutritious but easier to grow in the same land? Or the medicines that are probably responsible for half of us still being alive here? None of those things could have been developed without understanding the fundamental principles they're based on. Pure science might not look good in the short term, but when you take that data and give it to the engineers in a decade or so, it becomes miracles. I don't know how the LHC will benefit us any more than Mendel knew how his notes on peas would, but modern genetic theory has done a lot more good than any simple food drive.

ketchup504 wrote:The argument is valid that we could spend more money for more immediate gain of betterment now than using it in scientific progress. How much of a gain has the US' Space Program been? Not much, but we know a lot we didn't before.

Actually, the US space program has paid for itself a dozen times over in technologies they developed to get to space, then adapted to life on earth. Cutting funding to it looks good in the short term, which is all a politician can see, but down the line it's wasting money and worsening quality of life around the globe.

Derpmind wrote:Anyways, I have to ask this question now: Does anyone here have the impression that I'm smart?

Eh, you don't give the impression of "effortless genius" that most normal people seem to associate with the word. But you think. The vast majority of stupid in the world isn't a result of inability to figure things out, but just not bothering to answer (or even ask) the obvious question. Most of the time, you go about things rationally and intelligently, so even if your baseline mental capabilities are average or worse, you're "smarter" than most people in actual practice.

RandomBlank wrote:...Thermodynamics is based on law of big numbers...

Again, mostly correct but not quite. Most of the rules and theories we have figured out based on thermodynamics are based on statistical analysis of large systems, yes. But there are only two fundamental rules, and they apply at every level identically. To paraphrase:

1. You can't win, you can only break even. (energy is neither created nor destroyed, only changed to different forms)
2. You can't break even. (in every shift in form of energy, some is changed into less useful forms; entropy always increases)

Within those rules, you can describe everything from gas molecules to planet-wide populations to individual people. A living creature is made up of cells, which are made up of molecules, which go about very simple chemical reactions, and if you look closely enough you'll see that the reactions which decrease the total energy state happen spontaneously and throw off waste heat, and the ones which increase the energy state require added energy from the outside. Every individual event within the body of an animal increases entropy by a tiny amount; when you add up all the processes inside a cell you get a decrease in the amount of energy available, a significant amount of heat, and an orderly and useful resulting product on the side produced by a long chain of very simple reactions.

Somber wrote:One little bit I like to add. Evolution isn't random.

The results aren't. But the process is. Nothing looks at the situation and thinks that life would be easier with a specific tweak in their DNA (at least until modern genetic engineering comes along, which is outside the scope of evolution). Instead, a variety of mutagens cause random changes, and most of them do nothing or die off but a few are beneficial enough to increase the chance of reproduction, meaning they get passed to the next generation, and if we're very lucky they become common in the general population.

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:

swicked wrote:@Randomblank
Yeah, that's not real.

notgonnapostthestorynotgonnapostthestorynotgonnapostthestory... dammit.

Okay, not the same mistake, but sort of comparable. I once listened to a 40-something engineer explain why evolution couldn't possibly work because of the second law of thermodynamics. It felt like she had to be joking, but no. Deadly serious. (I'm hoping that the argument and counter-argument are well-known enough that I don't have to explain them, because trying to explain the former without it sounding like a blatant strawman is really, really difficult)

So, when I saw this, my reaction was "how did you get to be an engineer if you think that the concept of air conditioning is contrary to the second law of thermodynamics?"

Obviously others here have described the problem in great detail, but I find that sometimes a concrete example works wonders. Here, of course, we have an apparent increase in the order of the system by increasing the difference in temperature between two volumes of gas. But clearly it occurs, considering I'm benefiting from it right now; we just need, as was said before, to see the larger system--in this case, the entropy-increasing process taking place to generate the electricity that provides the energy input into the AC unit. It actually maps nicely onto the life/evolution situation, with the sun increasing entropy through fusion taking the place of the power plant, electromagnetic radiation the place of power lines, and photosynthesis (etc.) the place of refrigeration processes.

Icy Shake wrote:
So, when I saw this, my reaction was "how did you get to be an engineer if you think that the concept of air conditioning is contrary to the second law of thermodynamics?"

A-Ha! But the AC unit is actually Intelligent Design! It didn't happen by itself, it was created by a being superior in every respect to your average AC unit!

Wait, thermodynamics, evolution, Space Australia, more SCIENCE!!!, air conditioners?
Our discussion track is very coherent.
Also, if The Moon is cheese, Jupiter is bacon.

@Smartness
It's not a self-esteem thing, it just doesn't make sense. I know that here, online, I've made many posts that I can be proud of. But in RL, when your discussion with a stranger about her hat made from European beer cans, or about X type of music, or billboard advertisements, or even (surprisingly often) honest discussions about the weather inexplicably transmuting (in ten minutes or less) into topics about science, technology, politics, religion, spirituality, astronomy, biology, history, economics, gardening, walls, and (surprisingly often) the weather. These are total strangers, and yet I can't remember the last time a conversation with a stranger didn't either fizzle out quickly or somehow have me emulating experts on various topics using my partial knowledge and logical deduction skills. It just keeps happening, and I don't quite know why.

ketchup504 wrote:Wait, thermodynamics, evolution, Space Australia, more SCIENCE!!!, air conditioners?
Our discussion track is very coherent.

If it helps, I think we started with bullying, and from there to the gay agenda.

RandomBlank wrote:

Icy Shake wrote:
So, when I saw this, my reaction was "how did you get to be an engineer if you think that the concept of air conditioning is contrary to the second law of thermodynamics?"

A-Ha! But the AC unit is actually Intelligent Design! It didn't happen by itself, it was created by a being superior in every respect to your average AC unit!

True, but here's the thing: it doesn't matter if the process creating it is ID or evolution, where the second law is concerned. Either global entropy is increasing or it isn't. If you want to say that the second law doesn't apply to ID, then there's no reason to think it should apply to evolution.

Or perhaps I am missing their point entirely. Unless it's that ID is a supernatural process, which need not be bound by physical or statistical laws. In which case I ask "Why say there's a supernatural explanation where none is necessary? At least in my example, the intelligent designer is bound by the second law of thermodynamics, and mutatis mutandis the same point holds for the non-intelligent process of evolution." And then I'm accused of saying there are turtles all the way down, or some such. And then I conclude that we are talking past each other, and leave to do something more productive.

On a less serious note, I'd like to point out that the average person is far inferior to an AC unit where cooling a room is concerned.

ketchup504 wrote:Wait, thermodynamics, evolution, Space Australia, more SCIENCE!!!, air conditioners?
Our discussion track is very coherent.
Also, if The Moon is cheese, Jupiter is bacon.

I take full credit for Space Australia derailment.

Quick question: is Lacunae pronounced with a hard c or a soft c? I always pronounced it with a hard c but I don't know why.

Erumpet wrote:Quick question: is Lacunae pronounced with a hard c or a soft c? I always pronounced it with a hard c but I don't know why.

As do I. I pronounce it La-coon-ay. Probably so beyond wrong it's scary, but that's just how I've always ended up hearing it in my head.

@Feather: (Crusaders) Ah, yeah, that also makes sense. Either way works really :P
Also randomly was reminded of my FoE tabletop ration: "From the makers of: Gut fill ration, now proudly presents: Gut fill deluxe, now with flavour." (due to the fact they were starved)

@Rum; (Relevant) How could you? I trusted you, and this is how you repay me? *runs off wailing* xP

@Everypony: (Topic) Yeah, can admit I skipped quite a bit of it as my head and stomach hurts, and I wouldn't really understand it anyhow, but hey, we're back in non-creepy, random stuff.
Also, I wasn't very eager to see season 1 again, but it actually felt rather good. Oddly enough shed a few tears at random parts when none was looking. And man was it hot both out and in, so tired and woozy...

@Robo: (stuff) Ha! I like that gif xP
And heh, well, you're talking to a girl that sits spread eagle in saunas when in the mood, write fics of morally questionable content, have a pet gecko that needs live sacrifice to survive, casually think horrible thoughts and have done animated porn of colourful ponies from a children's show to name a few, I don't really have much innocence left I believe. ... also, sorry for going TMI without a spoiler lately. Think I'm coming down from a high... or low, of something as of late.

@Ketchup: Buck, please, when have our discussions ever been coherent?

Ice Crystal wrote:

Erumpet wrote:Quick question: is Lacunae pronounced with a hard c or a soft c? I always pronounced it with a hard c but I don't know why.

As do I. I pronounce it La-coon-ay. Probably so beyond wrong it's scary, but that's just how I've always ended up hearing it in my head.

That's how I've been reading it.


edit: Huh. According to the internet, it's [luh-kyoo-nee]. Dammit latin, why do you make everything sound so silly? I will disregard this and continue as I've been.

Admiral Stoic Rum wrote:One year celebration!

Yay i was relevant

Kattlarv wrote:
@Rum; (Relevant) How could you? I trusted you, and this is how you repay me? *runs off wailing* xP

Gah! I knew I was forgetting something in my last post! *ahem*

RELEVANCE IS IRRELEVANT. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.

Kattlarv wrote:
@Robo: (stuff) Ha! I like that gif xP

Spoiler:

Erumpet wrote:Quick question: is Lacunae pronounced with a hard c or a soft c? I always pronounced it with a hard c but I don't know why.

I've always pronounced it with a hard "c".

swicked wrote:

Erumpet wrote:Quick question: is Lacunae pronounced with a hard c or a soft c? I always pronounced it with a hard c but I don't know why.

I like pronouncing it Lah-coon-ah.

That's how I'd been pronouncing Lacuna (literally a gap or missing part), of which Lacunae is the plural.


But apparently that's supposed to be luh-kyoo-nuh because everything needs to sound ridiculous.

Anyway, definitely a hard c. It's the vowels that are problems.

Hard c it is. I've pronounced it La-coo-nay, which seems pretty close to the common consensus.

Sindri wrote:

Ice Crystal wrote:

Erumpet wrote:Quick question: is Lacunae pronounced with a hard c or a soft c? I always pronounced it with a hard c but I don't know why.

As do I. I pronounce it La-coon-ay. Probably so beyond wrong it's scary, but that's just how I've always ended up hearing it in my head.

That's how I've been reading it.


edit: Huh. According to the internet, it's [luh-kyoo-nee]. Dammit latin, why do you make everything sound so silly? I will disregard this and continue as I've been.

That's why it's a dead language, because people got tired of it being so silly

swicked wrote:

Originally, the point of the post was to note that such a mistake ("homo sapiens") was at least possible to make (though very unlikely to be put into a letter, and then printed in a paper), even if it hadn't been in that instance, and note a mistake that I felt was similarly head-desk inducing and also quite real. Then it sort of mostly became about the anecdote, and then I learned cool things about thermodynamics! (Pun unintended)

@Everypony: (Prenounce) I say it "LaC-u-nae" or "LaC-u-ny"... possibly with the first as "laCu", I have no idea how these works...
That's at least how I say it in DDO on my character :P

@Robo: I be far to brave to be assimulated, I'm not compatible anyhow.

And hehe, can say that sometimes I'm glad all I do is swell and moisten a bit. More subtle in almost all cases.

Erumpet wrote:Hard c it is. I've pronounced it La-coo-nay, which seems pretty close to the common consensus.

Been going 'La-soo-nay,' myself. Not one other?

Always used the hard "c" myself, like everybody apparently.
Well, except Meleagridis it seems... what a weirdy. :P

RandomBlank wrote:

Kippershy wrote:Or is it simply so we can understand?
To me, things like the LHC are just a silly waste of money to try understand something that actually doesn't have a practical use.
We should be instead focusing money and effort onto how to improve the world around us for all peoples, rather then trying to understand some science which has no application.

Yes, you don't understand.
To us LHC is as useless, as Marie Curie's research on radioactivity 100 years ago. Yet you can't deny nuclear fusion is important in our lives.

A bit late but that is a hell of an argument and I am literally saving that on a word document for the next convenient time. Anybody ever tell you how smart and convincing you are Blank?

Saw this while looking for Fallout screenshots.

RoboRed wrote:

Kattlarv wrote:@Robo: I be far to brave to be assimulated, I'm not compatible anyhow.

And hehe, can say that sometimes I'm glad all I do is swell and moisten a bit. More subtle in almost all cases.

YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED. BRAVERY IS IRRELEVANT. SPECIES IS IRRELEVANT.

BONERS ARE INCONVENIENT.

Not sure if Reaper or Borg... hmmm.