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Worm Discussion Thread

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Scienza on Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:14 pm

Mister Frost wrote:
End:
That was....I.....

My emotions are a mess right now. 

I wish I could say that I knew all along that Taylor was alive, that I called Wildbow on his bluff. But the truth is that, yes, Wildbow does have the balls to do that, and I was only clinging to the faint hope of a miracle.

On one side of things, Taylor's patching things up with her dad and is slowly adapting to her no-powers, one-arm life. The Undersiders are still in business, Bitch and Imp have their own little surrogate families, that fucking whore Cozen doesn't have Grue and is denied a happy ending, and Grue is too dead-as-fuck to get between Taylor and Rachel. 

I'm torn between wanting some sort of more complete resolution, one where Taylor can see her friends again, can reunite with the gang even as she and Rachel inevitably declare their feelings for each other and commence a passionate night up in Rachel's little grotto (I have no idea when this ship started taking up the whole harbor, so to speak.) But, at the same time, I kind of want this delicate balance to remain. For this hard-fought peace Taylor has to last.

Basically, while the story has ended, it hasn't come to a close. The closure is there, just incomplete. There's a hole in me that the total end would have gone, and it's still empty. And that makes it all the more memorable. As haunting and yearning as it is peaceful and beautiful. 

Or maybe I could just read a fanfic where Taylor and Rachel fuck. That might do it. 

End too:
I agree wholeheartedly. Speaking of which, what'd you think about that final battle, since I've been dying to talk with someone about it. Fucking awesome, but thematically, it's... weird. Taylor basically beat Scion by doing exactly what Emma did to her. Granted it was to save humanity, while Emma was just an insecure sadist, but even then, Khepri's so fucking out of it that motivations of survival of her species or even her friends get incredibly blurry. It's just a very interesting resolution that fucking wrecks any last vestiges of moral absolutism in the story.
I'd also thoroughly recommend reading Cenotaph, which is just excellent.
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:51 pm

Scienza wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:
End:
That was....I.....

My emotions are a mess right now. 

I wish I could say that I knew all along that Taylor was alive, that I called Wildbow on his bluff. But the truth is that, yes, Wildbow does have the balls to do that, and I was only clinging to the faint hope of a miracle.

On one side of things, Taylor's patching things up with her dad and is slowly adapting to her no-powers, one-arm life. The Undersiders are still in business, Bitch and Imp have their own little surrogate families, that fucking whore Cozen doesn't have Grue and is denied a happy ending, and Grue is too dead-as-fuck to get between Taylor and Rachel. 

I'm torn between wanting some sort of more complete resolution, one where Taylor can see her friends again, can reunite with the gang even as she and Rachel inevitably declare their feelings for each other and commence a passionate night up in Rachel's little grotto (I have no idea when this ship started taking up the whole harbor, so to speak.) But, at the same time, I kind of want this delicate balance to remain. For this hard-fought peace Taylor has to last.

Basically, while the story has ended, it hasn't come to a close. The closure is there, just incomplete. There's a hole in me that the total end would have gone, and it's still empty. And that makes it all the more memorable. As haunting and yearning as it is peaceful and beautiful. 

Or maybe I could just read a fanfic where Taylor and Rachel fuck. That might do it. 

End too:
I agree wholeheartedly. Speaking of which, what'd you think about that final battle, since I've been dying to talk with someone about it. Fucking awesome, but thematically, it's... weird. Taylor basically beat Scion by doing exactly what Emma did to her. Granted it was to save humanity, while Emma was just an insecure sadist, but even then, Khepri's so fucking out of it that motivations of survival of her species or even her friends get incredibly blurry. It's just a very interesting resolution that fucking wrecks any last vestiges of moral absolutism in the story.
I'd also thoroughly recommend reading Cenotaph, which is just excellent.
End Three:

And I do like that. The grey/grey morality of the story. Hell, Brandish's black/white view of the world (and subsequent shoving of that view on her daughters) is why they're both so screwed up (although Panacea was also screwed up by Brandish's neglect and the self-loathing she felt after falling in love with Victoria, more due to Vicoria's awe/fear aura than any virtue of Victoria's). 

I've heard others mention that Khepri basically "bullying" Scion into giving up makes her like Emma, but, as ties into the moral mess that is one of Worm's themes, one can't really compare sadistic, bitchy bullying with attempts to slay the omnicidal psychic alien war-god. If the argument was that Khepri was evil because she hijacked the bodies and minds of several thousand people and used them as disposable pawns in the fight...yeah, I can see it, but, again, it was a necessary evil--the alternative was the pan-universal extinction of humanity by aforementioned god-bomination. 

It says something about the story that it goes from underworld gang-wars and bank robberies to, as mentioned, enslaving inhuman monsters and slaying near-omnipotent deities, and it doesn't seem forced or out of place.

In the end, though, I was still mostly concerned with the characters rather than the events themselves. I'll confess that, toward the end, I was almost frantic to finish it, just because I wanted that badly to know how it ended and how they ended up. 

By the way, have you sampled Pact yet? Enough to reccomend one way or the other?
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Scienza on Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:55 pm

Mister Frost wrote:
Scienza wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:
End:
That was....I.....

My emotions are a mess right now. 

I wish I could say that I knew all along that Taylor was alive, that I called Wildbow on his bluff. But the truth is that, yes, Wildbow does have the balls to do that, and I was only clinging to the faint hope of a miracle.

On one side of things, Taylor's patching things up with her dad and is slowly adapting to her no-powers, one-arm life. The Undersiders are still in business, Bitch and Imp have their own little surrogate families, that fucking whore Cozen doesn't have Grue and is denied a happy ending, and Grue is too dead-as-fuck to get between Taylor and Rachel. 

I'm torn between wanting some sort of more complete resolution, one where Taylor can see her friends again, can reunite with the gang even as she and Rachel inevitably declare their feelings for each other and commence a passionate night up in Rachel's little grotto (I have no idea when this ship started taking up the whole harbor, so to speak.) But, at the same time, I kind of want this delicate balance to remain. For this hard-fought peace Taylor has to last.

Basically, while the story has ended, it hasn't come to a close. The closure is there, just incomplete. There's a hole in me that the total end would have gone, and it's still empty. And that makes it all the more memorable. As haunting and yearning as it is peaceful and beautiful. 

Or maybe I could just read a fanfic where Taylor and Rachel fuck. That might do it. 

End too:
I agree wholeheartedly. Speaking of which, what'd you think about that final battle, since I've been dying to talk with someone about it. Fucking awesome, but thematically, it's... weird. Taylor basically beat Scion by doing exactly what Emma did to her. Granted it was to save humanity, while Emma was just an insecure sadist, but even then, Khepri's so fucking out of it that motivations of survival of her species or even her friends get incredibly blurry. It's just a very interesting resolution that fucking wrecks any last vestiges of moral absolutism in the story.
I'd also thoroughly recommend reading Cenotaph, which is just excellent.
End Three:

And I do like that. The grey/grey morality of the story. Hell, Brandish's black/white view of the world (and subsequent shoving of that view on her daughters) is why they're both so screwed up (although Panacea was also screwed up by Brandish's neglect and the self-loathing she felt after falling in love with Victoria, more due to Vicoria's awe/fear aura than any virtue of Victoria's). 

I've heard others mention that Khepri basically "bullying" Scion into giving up makes her like Emma, but, as ties into the moral mess that is one of Worm's themes, one can't really compare sadistic, bitchy bullying with attempts to slay the omnicidal psychic alien war-god. If the argument was that Khepri was evil because she hijacked the bodies and minds of several thousand people and used them as disposable pawns in the fight...yeah, I can see it, but, again, it was a necessary evil--the alternative was the pan-universal extinction of humanity by aforementioned god-bomination. 

It says something about the story that it goes from underworld gang-wars and bank robberies to, as mentioned, enslaving inhuman monsters and slaying near-omnipotent deities, and it doesn't seem forced or out of place.

In the end, though, I was still mostly concerned with the characters rather than the events themselves. I'll confess that, toward the end, I was almost frantic to finish it, just because I wanted that badly to know how it ended and how they ended up. 

By the way, have you sampled Pact yet? Enough to reccomend one way or the other?
It's also quite good. I haven't gotten hooked by it as much as Worm (probably because I'm slightly concerned about getting sucked into another massive work), but so far it's been just as good as you'd expect from Wildbow. I'll probably get caught up on it next time I have a mess of free time.

End 4:
Aye, I agree. On the bullying thing, while I agree that the way that she defeats him doesn't make her some sort of irredeemable bully or anything so black and white, but it is still complicated. I can't help but feel like Khepri saw enough of pre-Undersiders Taylor in Scion to make that leap.
Panacea (Still very spoilery):
What you said about Amy reminds me of something I saw a while ago that messed me up. Victoria's powers influence the emotions of those people around her, usually making them more awed or inspired by her. She probably triggered right around the same time that Amy was going through puberty. The implications are... unpleasant.
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:46 pm

Scienza wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:
Scienza wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:
End:
That was....I.....

My emotions are a mess right now. 

I wish I could say that I knew all along that Taylor was alive, that I called Wildbow on his bluff. But the truth is that, yes, Wildbow does have the balls to do that, and I was only clinging to the faint hope of a miracle.

On one side of things, Taylor's patching things up with her dad and is slowly adapting to her no-powers, one-arm life. The Undersiders are still in business, Bitch and Imp have their own little surrogate families, that fucking whore Cozen doesn't have Grue and is denied a happy ending, and Grue is too dead-as-fuck to get between Taylor and Rachel. 

I'm torn between wanting some sort of more complete resolution, one where Taylor can see her friends again, can reunite with the gang even as she and Rachel inevitably declare their feelings for each other and commence a passionate night up in Rachel's little grotto (I have no idea when this ship started taking up the whole harbor, so to speak.) But, at the same time, I kind of want this delicate balance to remain. For this hard-fought peace Taylor has to last.

Basically, while the story has ended, it hasn't come to a close. The closure is there, just incomplete. There's a hole in me that the total end would have gone, and it's still empty. And that makes it all the more memorable. As haunting and yearning as it is peaceful and beautiful. 

Or maybe I could just read a fanfic where Taylor and Rachel fuck. That might do it. 

End too:
I agree wholeheartedly. Speaking of which, what'd you think about that final battle, since I've been dying to talk with someone about it. Fucking awesome, but thematically, it's... weird. Taylor basically beat Scion by doing exactly what Emma did to her. Granted it was to save humanity, while Emma was just an insecure sadist, but even then, Khepri's so fucking out of it that motivations of survival of her species or even her friends get incredibly blurry. It's just a very interesting resolution that fucking wrecks any last vestiges of moral absolutism in the story.
I'd also thoroughly recommend reading Cenotaph, which is just excellent.
End Three:

And I do like that. The grey/grey morality of the story. Hell, Brandish's black/white view of the world (and subsequent shoving of that view on her daughters) is why they're both so screwed up (although Panacea was also screwed up by Brandish's neglect and the self-loathing she felt after falling in love with Victoria, more due to Vicoria's awe/fear aura than any virtue of Victoria's). 

I've heard others mention that Khepri basically "bullying" Scion into giving up makes her like Emma, but, as ties into the moral mess that is one of Worm's themes, one can't really compare sadistic, bitchy bullying with attempts to slay the omnicidal psychic alien war-god. If the argument was that Khepri was evil because she hijacked the bodies and minds of several thousand people and used them as disposable pawns in the fight...yeah, I can see it, but, again, it was a necessary evil--the alternative was the pan-universal extinction of humanity by aforementioned god-bomination. 

It says something about the story that it goes from underworld gang-wars and bank robberies to, as mentioned, enslaving inhuman monsters and slaying near-omnipotent deities, and it doesn't seem forced or out of place.

In the end, though, I was still mostly concerned with the characters rather than the events themselves. I'll confess that, toward the end, I was almost frantic to finish it, just because I wanted that badly to know how it ended and how they ended up. 

By the way, have you sampled Pact yet? Enough to reccomend one way or the other?
It's also quite good. I haven't gotten hooked by it as much as Worm (probably because I'm slightly concerned about getting sucked into another massive work), but so far it's been just as good as you'd expect from Wildbow. I'll probably get caught up on it next time I have a mess of free time.

End 4:
Aye, I agree. On the bullying thing, while I agree that the way that she defeats him doesn't make her some sort of irredeemable bully or anything so black and white, but it is still complicated. I can't help but feel like Khepri saw enough of pre-Undersiders Taylor in Scion to make that leap.
Panacea (Still very spoilery):
What you said about Amy reminds me of something I saw a while ago that messed me up. Victoria's powers influence the emotions of those people around her, usually making them more awed or inspired by her. She probably triggered right around the same time that Amy was going through puberty. The implications are... unpleasant.
Pancest:

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. As I mentioned, it's likely more due to that than any attractive virtue of Victoria's that Amelia fell in love with her--because, as is fairly clear, Victoria's an entitled, self-righteous, unpleasant bitch. One has to wonder if she's actually homosexual or if that was just a side effect of her power-induced feelings for Victoria. 

It's quite interesting to note that she'd most certainly be in a far better place mentally if she'd have stayed with her loving, supportive father--a supervillain gang lord. Hell, even in-canon, post-Birdcage Panacea--even with her kinda-gruesome tattoos and probably not-entirely-voluntary slimming-down-- is clearly in a better place, having found a place where she doesn't constantly feel guilty that she's not healing people and having a loving parental figure around. Fuck, she's actually feared by the other (presumably powerful parahuman criminals) residents of the Birdcage because, presumably, she's less scared to use her power for its (potentially nightmarish) offensive capabilities. 
Saint:
Well, you were right about him being a dickwhistle. The "badass non-parahuman" role was instead fulfilled by the unnamed Dragon Tooth officer who took on Grey Boy, Jack and a few others, solo, and wrecked shit. Damn, that's some Ollanius Pius shit right there.
Tangent:
It's interesting to note how Shards develop from generation to generation. Marquis had range and offensive power, but was limited to bone (mostly his own) while Panacea, though having only touch-range, could manipulate biology on a cellular level. Kaiser could, creatively and precisely, make metal sprout from metal, while Golem, though limited to making hand-, foot-, and face-shaped outcroppings, could do it in any material. New Wave, however, with their relatively uncreative and unintelligent powers (the blunt object to the villains' scalpel, if you will) only had variations in the aspects of the powers--Lady Photon was all-around, her niece Glory Girl was a physical powerhouse, Shielder was better at forcefields and Laserdream had good lasers. This is probably due to the fact that, by all appearances, the heroes (who are mostly physical, as well as just about all physically-based powers) appear to be from Zion "The Warrior", while most mental/unconventional powers seem to come from Eden (his more introspective counterpart). Nonetheless, I'm not complaining about the relatively greater screen time most villains and rogues get compared to heroes--in addition to the moral complexity and relative lack of self-delusion that the heroes tend to suffer, the villains' powers are just plain more creative and interesting than the bulk of the heroes' powers (with some exceptions, like Miss Militia and Clockblocker)

Number Man:
This is an OP motherfucker. His power puts Tattletale, Accord, and all of Teacher's Thinkers to shame, near Dinah's level (with fewer limitations) and, despite him being a thin, physically-unpowered middle-aged man, lets him powerhouse through high-level cape fights. I'm not complaining, though. I actually love the guy, and I find his power quite interesting. Moreso than Contessa, I think. His perspectives on everything from mathematics to morality also make him quite an intriguing fellow, and, unlike the rest of Cauldron (deceased, save Contessa, who's with Teacher) is still free and unaccounted for. I'd be interested in what the fanfic writers (and Wildbow, should he ever return to the parahumanverse) do with him. 

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by swicked on Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:34 am

25.2:
Holy crap, the Wards are boring. I do not care about any of them.
The Undersiders were so much more interesting and dynamic.
I don't blame Weaver for feeling stagnant. A two and a half month timeskip? Seriously, did nothing happen whatsoever? Did she at least try and develop her skills? It's not like there aren't additional techniques to work out.
I think Golem said he'd only been in one fight prior to behemoth but had been with the wards a month. So slow...

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:21 am

Woops, accidental downvote. 

Anyway, that's kind of the point--Taylor doesn't really care about them, either. She grows to like them, sure, but she doesn't consider them family like the Undersiders were. It doesn't help that their main bonding experience is chafing under the PRT's restrictions, rather than the Undersiders' facing off against everyone from heroes to E88's spawn to the Nine.
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by swicked on Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:55 am

26.3:

Well, that was anticlimactic.
Saint is an ass, claiming killing Dragon wasn't an act of self preservation. Who is he trying to convince?
He made a living out of exploiting Dragon and called it noble. Now he's decided to stand in for her and is total crap at it. I bet it takes him a matter of minutes to realize he doesn't know how to wield her weapons and crafts non-lethally. He obviously doesn't have her respect for life, allying with teacher, a master who turns people into pliable idiots. I honestly hope Teacher manages to meet Saint in person and do so to him.

It's just so absurd that Saint paradoxically bought in to the claim of Dragon's creator being able to create AIs that grow, think, adapt and evolve and yet claim they are not life. The guy defined life and said he created it in the form of AIs and Saint managed to just conform his beliefs to his prejudice. I guess that's the message here, calling him Saint.

Additionally,  I still find it funny, chapters ago, when the Chicago wards leader guy stated Weaver had been with them longer than she had the Undersiders. I mean, per the story, she absolutely had. From our perspective, though, she'd barely known them for two or three chapters.
It's a funny clash of perspectives, to me.

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by swicked on Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:01 am

25 or so:
Mister Frost wrote:Woops, accidental downvote. 

Anyway, that's kind of the point--Taylor doesn't really care about them, either. She grows to like them, sure, but she doesn't consider them family like the Undersiders were. It doesn't help that their main bonding experience is chafing under the PRT's restrictions, rather than the Undersiders' facing off against everyone from heroes to E88's spawn to the Nine.
After the massive two year timeskip she's reviewing her past notes on endbringer attacks. Something like a dozen she'd participated in with the Chicago Wards. Add that to her efforts to unseat longstanding villains in both her city and others' and she's been through a lot with them.
It still just doesn't feel as organic between them all. She's unhappy and doesn't have as strong a connection. After two years, when she's 18, she sees Lisa again and they still feel like best friends to me. Taylor and Rachel still have a deep connection, too.
Grue is emo and his girlfriend is insecure, though, so... less love lost there.
Golem, the person on the Wards that knows her best, later states how excited she seems on the hunt for Jack with the Undersiders. Just one more confirmation that she never formed a friendship with any of them like she had with her old team.


Last edited by swicked on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:04 am

Well, yes. The Undersiders took Taylor in when she was just starting out on the cape game. They were her first friends--like, at all--since Emma. During a time when Taylor was insecure, feeling near-powerless and borderline suicidal, the Undersiders gave her a chance to, as she even says, "escape". And that escape turned into real power once their escapades escalated into full-on (supporter) control of a significant part of the city, which then escalated into being the unquestioned warlords of Brockton Bay's underground (and most of its populace). 

Then she goes to the Wards, where they immediately start stripping away her independence, try to neuter her powers, and look for any excuse to cut the sling-load and dump her back in jail. Even her peers (albeit prospective team leaders) are along on a mission to judge and evaluate her, while limiting her as much as possible. Even if, in the end, her new team is accepting of her, the PRT at large is still trying to keep her on a leash, and everyone frequently used her precarious position to exercise whatever petty power they have over her--the woman who put the smack-down on ABB, the Chosen, the Merchants, the Pure, the Teeth, and the fucking Nine.


I kind of understand that, even in that time gap, she doesn't feel quite as fond of them.
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:06 am

What happened to spoiler tags?

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by swicked on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:16 am

25 or so:
...honestly, the more I read, the less I feel there's any connection there. Golem looks to her for training and advice, but it seems like a kinda one-sided relationship, if that. She's basically his occasional tutor and the only person willing to go running with her most of the time, and that seems to partially just be because he feels like he needs to get in shape.
The interaction on that morning show (O. J. and Koffi) was mostly everyone else picking on her, so it was altogether an unpleasant experience that ended as badly as it possibly could.
Now that they're on the hunt for the S9 she's mostly just professionally distant toward them. There was this scene when they were doing a stakeout and she was mostly just trying to ignore them until Rachel came and leaned up against the wall next to her, their arms slightly touching, and Taylor felt somehow reassured to have her there while they waited for the shit to hit the fan. That felt organic.
Everyone else just doesn't.

Meh.

I guess I just find it funny that the "official" leader of the Chicago Wards bothered to imply that she should feel more of a connection to them, just 'cause she's been with them longer. I guess he never got to know her, either.

Edit:
...plus they're boring. Clockblocker's the only interesting Ward, at this point, in my opinion. I'd say Kid Win too, but the guy almost never talks. He just looks interesting.

Last wrote:What happened to spoiler tags?
Fixed, I guess.
I'd edit Frost's to use them too, but *shrug*

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:29 am

Spoiler:

Well, like I was telling Sci--for plenty of reasons, in Worm and other works, the villains are often far more interesting than the heroes (even when the morality of both gets blurry). So little time is spent for the readers to get to know them because Taylor spent so little time getting to know them. To her, her "defection" was a means to an end--preparing for Jack's apocalypse. If she makes some friends or whatever, great, but she doesn't particularly want to try or make an effort to reach out to them. 
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by swicked on Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:12 pm

Mister Frost wrote:
Spoiler:

Well, like I was telling Sci--for plenty of reasons, in Worm and other works, the villains are often far more interesting than the heroes (even when the morality of both gets blurry). So little time is spent for the readers to get to know them because Taylor spent so little time getting to know them. To her, her "defection" was a means to an end--preparing for Jack's apocalypse. If she makes some friends or whatever, great, but she doesn't particularly want to try or make an effort to reach out to them. 
Spoiler:
The Undersiders were pretty cool from the get-go. They also had more interesting costumes. A motorcycle jacket and helmet, a ruffled outfit, a plastic dog mask. Low budget, despite Coil's backing. Kinda funny.
Their personalities, too. Tattletale was gregarious and arrogant, but overwhelmingly friendly. Bitch seemed insane and Grue was ominous. The Wards are all mostly just friendly, though I rather liked them in that one early Wards chapter. Aegis, mostly, with people asking him to stop talking with his punched lung. Clockblocker joking about the nightmares he was going to have. I think Taylor would have fit in well with them, actually. The Chicago Wards just don't feel as organic, I think.
I dunno.

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:27 pm

Spoiler:

True, but, again, we saw the Brockton Bay Wards mostly from either their own perspectives, or from the perspective of Taylor, who had something of a frenemy thing going on with Clockblocker, at least. We see the Chicago Wards only from Taylor (who doesn't really are about them) and Theo (who's socially awkward as hell) for the most part. 

Also, I'm sure by now you're beginning to see the fires of SkitterxBitch building. Embrace it. You know it's true. 
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by swicked on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:45 pm

Spoiler:
There's love there, true enough, just no attraction that I can see from either of them thus far.

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by swicked on Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:18 am

Continuation on the current discussion:
What is your opinion on Theo?
'Cause I really dislike the guy. Especially that stupid bit where he told Taylor that she's Jack's nemesis, the one to hunt him down. That she should work on putting the plan together because he wanted to be the one to mourn for the dead. That they needed someone to mourn for them.
I'm like... those people have families. People who care about them that will mourn for them. Theo's role as hero, much like Taylor's, is to stop the S9. Maybe it's because I am more on the practical, Taylor-side of mentalities than I am to the more emotional Theo-side, but the guy just sounded like he was spouting nonsense. Worthless gestures. He's not helping anyone and I feel like he's bound to just get himself killed.
It's too bad Taylor didn't realize how fragile Theo would be come showtime so that she could have tried to toughen him up a bit. It makes me feel like he's going to end up dragging his feet and get himself killed at some point.

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:58 am

swicked wrote:
Continuation on the current discussion:
What is your opinion on Theo?
'Cause I really dislike the guy. Especially that stupid bit where he told Taylor that she's Jack's nemesis, the one to hunt him down. That she should work on putting the plan together because he wanted to be the one to mourn for the dead. That they needed someone to mourn for them.
I'm like... those people have families. People who care about them that will mourn for them. Theo's role as hero, much like Taylor's, is to stop the S9. Maybe it's because I am more on the practical, Taylor-side of mentalities than I am to the more emotional Theo-side, but the guy just sounded like he was spouting nonsense. Worthless gestures. He's not helping anyone and I feel like he's bound to just get himself killed.
It's too bad Taylor didn't realize how fragile Theo would be come showtime so that she could have tried to toughen him up a bit. It makes me feel like he's going to end up dragging his feet and get himself killed at some point.
Spoiler:

On one hand, it's kinda admirable that he's taking up the mantle of being a hero despite being so obviously unsuited for the role, when he'd rather just run and let the real heroes take care of things if he had the choice. On the other--he's clearly unsuited for the role, and he'd rather just run and let the real heroes take care of things if he had the choice. I mean, props for trying, but he's still a chubby, self-pitying kid with nothing but a rather lame power at his disposal. Can't say I'm a huge fan, though I think that's kind of the point. 
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Scienza on Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:42 am

Mister Frost wrote:
swicked wrote:
Continuation on the current discussion:
What is your opinion on Theo?
'Cause I really dislike the guy. Especially that stupid bit where he told Taylor that she's Jack's nemesis, the one to hunt him down. That she should work on putting the plan together because he wanted to be the one to mourn for the dead. That they needed someone to mourn for them.
I'm like... those people have families. People who care about them that will mourn for them. Theo's role as hero, much like Taylor's, is to stop the S9. Maybe it's because I am more on the practical, Taylor-side of mentalities than I am to the more emotional Theo-side, but the guy just sounded like he was spouting nonsense. Worthless gestures. He's not helping anyone and I feel like he's bound to just get himself killed.
It's too bad Taylor didn't realize how fragile Theo would be come showtime so that she could have tried to toughen him up a bit. It makes me feel like he's going to end up dragging his feet and get himself killed at some point.
Spoiler:

On one hand, it's kinda admirable that he's taking up the mantle of being a hero despite being so obviously unsuited for the role, when he'd rather just run and let the real heroes take care of things if he had the choice. On the other--he's clearly unsuited for the role, and he'd rather just run and let the real heroes take care of things if he had the choice. I mean, props for trying, but he's still a chubby, self-pitying kid with nothing but a rather lame power at his disposal. Can't say I'm a huge fan, though I think that's kind of the point. 
Spoiler:
His response also makes sense in the context of his childhood. Growing up with Kaiser as a father probably meant that he never did get to have any of the normal emotional breakdowns or periods of mourning that other people inevitably go through. So, his overly-emotional-to-the-point-of-being-disruptive swing is wild and crazy because he never learned to deal with his feels in a healthy manner.
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:26 pm

Spoiler:

True. It's shown in Purity's early interlude that he's pretty much been abused (not necessarily physically. Mentally and emotionally is more Kaiser's style) to the point of being completely subservient and "respectful". 

Not that that makes him any more interesting or likeable as he is now. 

Your thoughts on our earlier points of discussion?
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Scienza on Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:26 pm

Mister Frost wrote:
Spoiler:

True. It's shown in Purity's early interlude that he's pretty much been abused (not necessarily physically. Mentally and emotionally is more Kaiser's style) to the point of being completely subservient and "respectful". 

Not that that makes him any more interesting or likeable as he is now. 

Your thoughts on our earlier points of discussion?
There's probably ending spoilers in here:

@Pancest
I'm inclined to think that Amelia is actually gay, if only because I don't think that Victoria's powers had either the high-level neurological capabilities of Amy's power or the absolute control of Heartbreaker and his kids. It's hard to say, because she never actually indicates any interest in anyone other than GG, male or female. Now, as to her attraction to the only person she grew up with that ever regarded her as family, well, that's definitely more likely to be the brainwashing.

I'm not sure about the growing up with Marquis thing. On one hand, you're absolutely right that her emotional state would be very much better from having a family that actually saw you as such. Also, if her attraction to Vicky turns out to be something other than being emotionally bombarded with love-rays, she'd have been free to have a wild Catwoman romance with Glory Girl without any of the shame. The only problem is that I think Amy would have possibly been too powerful for the pre-everything-going-to-shit Protectorate to allow to go free. She basically has the same level of unfettered mutagenic properties of Nilbog and Bonesaw, meaning that she's scary enough to warrant getting taken down hard, but not scary enough to be left alone (Like the aforementioned Nilbog or Moord Nag). So, best case scenario, she and her dad end up in the Birdcage, worst case scenario, they both end up dead or worse.

@Saint
I completely agree. Saint is an asshole, and the Dragon's Teeth are fucking badass.

@Shards'NStuff
I'm not as sure about the Zion/Eden dichotomy, if only because there are several Cauldron capes who are ostensibly physical (Battery comes to mind), and Thinkers and Masters seem to mostly come from Zion.

Also, if you'd like a very interesting take on the heroic side of the equation, I'd really recommend Cenotaph. It's a divergence point AU where Taylor ended up joining the Wards, and it's arguably darker and more brutal than Worm. It's also extremely well done.

@NumbersMan
Jack Slash/Numbers Man OTP
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:54 pm

Scienza wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:
Spoiler:

True. It's shown in Purity's early interlude that he's pretty much been abused (not necessarily physically. Mentally and emotionally is more Kaiser's style) to the point of being completely subservient and "respectful". 

Not that that makes him any more interesting or likeable as he is now. 

Your thoughts on our earlier points of discussion?
There's probably ending spoilers in here:

@Pancest
I'm inclined to think that Amelia is actually gay, if only because I don't think that Victoria's powers had either the high-level neurological capabilities of Amy's power or the absolute control of Heartbreaker and his kids. It's hard to say, because she never actually indicates any interest in anyone other than GG, male or female. Now, as to her attraction to the only person she grew up with that ever regarded her as family, well, that's definitely more likely to be the brainwashing.

I'm not sure about the growing up with Marquis thing. On one hand, you're absolutely right that her emotional state would be very much better from having a family that actually saw you as such. Also, if her attraction to Vicky turns out to be something other than being emotionally bombarded with love-rays, she'd have been free to have a wild Catwoman romance with Glory Girl without any of the shame. The only problem is that I think Amy would have possibly been too powerful for the pre-everything-going-to-shit Protectorate to allow to go free. She basically has the same level of unfettered mutagenic properties of Nilbog and Bonesaw, meaning that she's scary enough to warrant getting taken down hard, but not scary enough to be left alone (Like the aforementioned Nilbog or Moord Nag). So, best case scenario, she and her dad end up in the Birdcage, worst case scenario, they both end up dead or worse.

@Saint
I completely agree. Saint is an asshole, and the Dragon's Teeth are fucking badass.

@Shards'NStuff
I'm not as sure about the Zion/Eden dichotomy, if only because there are several Cauldron capes who are ostensibly physical (Battery comes to mind), and Thinkers and Masters seem to mostly come from Zion.

Also, if you'd like a very interesting take on the heroic side of the equation, I'd really recommend Cenotaph. It's a divergence point AU where Taylor ended up joining the Wards, and it's arguably darker and more brutal than Worm. It's also extremely well done.

@NumbersMan
Jack Slash/Numbers Man OTP
Spoiler:
On the other hand, being influenced by Marquis, Amelia would likely develop her own code of conduct (or adapt/adopt his) and similarly, for the most part, stay in that sweet spot (that the Undersiders even briefly occupied) where you're too powerful for the locals but beneath the notice of the big dogs. I mostly see her being a for-hire healer for the supervillain community, with possible services in the "tune-up" and "enhancement" departments--for a price, naturally. She'd mostly draw on her father's gang and reputation for protection, and only resort to the mildest of measures at her disposal when she has to fight (since you tend to draw attention by turning people inside-out)

I also like the idea of a Catwoman-style fling with Victoria, personally. Vicky'd probably be conflicted as hell, too, since the "evil" Panacea seems to be rather nice girl who doesn't really hurt anyone.

Man, that actually sounds like a fairly interesting AU fic. 

I gave Cenotaph a shot; read through most of the second arc. Doesn't really grab my attention as such. Not that it's bad, per se, I just didn't particularly like seeing everyone's development, accrued power and influence, and relationships reset so freshly after finishing the story proper. I might go back to it later. 

Regarding Shards, I suppose a better explaination would be that the more powerful (read: vital to an Entity's survival) Shards came from Eden. Such as Legend's space-travel laser-beam stuff, or Taylor's Administration, or Jack's Broadcasting. Most of the ones that give an Entity pause to fight (like Foil's stuff) probably came from Eden, who was too busy gettin' shanked like a bitch to hold onto or cripple them like Zion did.

As far as Jack and Number Man goes....hey, they were partners in the Slaughterhouse Nine for quite some time, especially in their younger (hormonal teenage days). Even modern-day Number Man sets aside his costume and goes out in plainclothes for Jack's sake, so their friend(?)ship still holds some weight after all this time. Who knows what went down between Harbinger and Jacob during the good ol' days?

Or should I say, went up?


Get it?

Up. 

As in boners.

 
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Scienza on Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:07 pm

Mister Frost wrote:
Scienza wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:
Spoiler:

True. It's shown in Purity's early interlude that he's pretty much been abused (not necessarily physically. Mentally and emotionally is more Kaiser's style) to the point of being completely subservient and "respectful". 

Not that that makes him any more interesting or likeable as he is now. 

Your thoughts on our earlier points of discussion?
There's probably ending spoilers in here:

@Pancest
I'm inclined to think that Amelia is actually gay, if only because I don't think that Victoria's powers had either the high-level neurological capabilities of Amy's power or the absolute control of Heartbreaker and his kids. It's hard to say, because she never actually indicates any interest in anyone other than GG, male or female. Now, as to her attraction to the only person she grew up with that ever regarded her as family, well, that's definitely more likely to be the brainwashing.

I'm not sure about the growing up with Marquis thing. On one hand, you're absolutely right that her emotional state would be very much better from having a family that actually saw you as such. Also, if her attraction to Vicky turns out to be something other than being emotionally bombarded with love-rays, she'd have been free to have a wild Catwoman romance with Glory Girl without any of the shame. The only problem is that I think Amy would have possibly been too powerful for the pre-everything-going-to-shit Protectorate to allow to go free. She basically has the same level of unfettered mutagenic properties of Nilbog and Bonesaw, meaning that she's scary enough to warrant getting taken down hard, but not scary enough to be left alone (Like the aforementioned Nilbog or Moord Nag). So, best case scenario, she and her dad end up in the Birdcage, worst case scenario, they both end up dead or worse.

@Saint
I completely agree. Saint is an asshole, and the Dragon's Teeth are fucking badass.

@Shards'NStuff
I'm not as sure about the Zion/Eden dichotomy, if only because there are several Cauldron capes who are ostensibly physical (Battery comes to mind), and Thinkers and Masters seem to mostly come from Zion.

Also, if you'd like a very interesting take on the heroic side of the equation, I'd really recommend Cenotaph. It's a divergence point AU where Taylor ended up joining the Wards, and it's arguably darker and more brutal than Worm. It's also extremely well done.

@NumbersMan
Jack Slash/Numbers Man OTP
Spoiler:
On the other hand, being influenced by Marquis, Amelia would likely develop her own code of conduct (or adapt/adopt his) and similarly, for the most part, stay in that sweet spot (that the Undersiders even briefly occupied) where you're too powerful for the locals but beneath the notice of the big dogs. I mostly see her being a for-hire healer for the supervillain community, with possible services in the "tune-up" and "enhancement" departments--for a price, naturally. She'd mostly draw on her father's gang and reputation for protection, and only resort to the mildest of measures at her disposal when she has to fight (since you tend to draw attention by turning people inside-out)

I also like the idea of a Catwoman-style fling with Victoria, personally. Vicky'd probably be conflicted as hell, too, since the "evil" Panacea seems to be rather nice girl who doesn't really hurt anyone.

Man, that actually sounds like a fairly interesting AU fic. 

I gave Cenotaph a shot; read through most of the second arc. Doesn't really grab my attention as such. Not that it's bad, per se, I just didn't particularly like seeing everyone's development, accrued power and influence, and relationships reset so freshly after finishing the story proper. I might go back to it later. 

Regarding Shards, I suppose a better explaination would be that the more powerful (read: vital to an Entity's survival) Shards came from Eden. Such as Legend's space-travel laser-beam stuff, or Taylor's Administration, or Jack's Broadcasting. Most of the ones that give an Entity pause to fight (like Foil's stuff) probably came from Eden, who was too busy gettin' shanked like a bitch to hold onto or cripple them like Zion did.

As far as Jack and Number Man goes....hey, they were partners in the Slaughterhouse Nine for quite some time, especially in their younger (hormonal teenage days). Even modern-day Number Man sets aside his costume and goes out in plainclothes for Jack's sake, so their friend(?)ship still holds some weight after all this time. Who knows what went down between Harbinger and Jacob during the good ol' days?

Or should I say, went up?


Get it?

Up. 

As in boners.

 
Spoiler:
Well, that probably was what Worm was like at one point. IIRC, Panacea and Glory Girl were going to be the protagonists in one of Wildbow's earlier drafts.

@JS/NM
He can make it as long as you need it to be. If you know what I mean...

Shit, I've got to stop forgetting to put the end "/spoiler" tags.
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:24 pm

Spoiler:
I wonder if anyone's gotten around to making a fic like that. I'd read the shit out of it. 

In a similar vein, I'd like to get into a Worm RP, but I don't particularly want to join Spacebattles or whatever just to join an in-progress RP with a bunch of assholes I don't know.

SlashSlash:
*Harbinger sits up in bed, brushing aside a confused-looking Jack as he puts on his glasses. 

"Ahem. You assured me you were 'average, at least'"

"I am!"

"The average male of your age group and ethnicity is 5.64 inches long under optimal conditions. You are 5.54 inches long under, given your earlier words toward me over dinner, I can assume are optimal conditions. I'm afraid I can't be in a relationship with this sort of dishonesty, Jacob."

*Runs off to Cauldron*
And that's how it happened.
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by swicked on Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:40 am

Mister Frost wrote:
swicked wrote:
Continuation on the current discussion:
What is your opinion on Theo?
'Cause I really dislike the guy. Especially that stupid bit where he told Taylor that she's Jack's nemesis, the one to hunt him down. That she should work on putting the plan together because he wanted to be the one to mourn for the dead. That they needed someone to mourn for them.
I'm like... those people have families. People who care about them that will mourn for them. Theo's role as hero, much like Taylor's, is to stop the S9. Maybe it's because I am more on the practical, Taylor-side of mentalities than I am to the more emotional Theo-side, but the guy just sounded like he was spouting nonsense. Worthless gestures. He's not helping anyone and I feel like he's bound to just get himself killed.
It's too bad Taylor didn't realize how fragile Theo would be come showtime so that she could have tried to toughen him up a bit. It makes me feel like he's going to end up dragging his feet and get himself killed at some point.
Spoiler:

On one hand, it's kinda admirable that he's taking up the mantle of being a hero despite being so obviously unsuited for the role, when he'd rather just run and let the real heroes take care of things if he had the choice. On the other--he's clearly unsuited for the role, and he'd rather just run and let the real heroes take care of things if he had the choice. I mean, props for trying, but he's still a chubby, self-pitying kid with nothing but a rather lame power at his disposal. Can't say I'm a huge fan, though I think that's kind of the point. 

26.a:

I think I'm starting to understand his problem. He thinks everyone else is excited by this stuff. Maybe not enjoying it, but he talked about how intense Weaver was to be on the hunt. He's talking now about how the others are hurriedly strategizing.
More than just not wanting to be a fighter, he thinks the others do.
As passionate as Taylor might be toward stopping those that prey on others, I really think she'd rather they not exist. She never really wanted to hurt her bullies, no matter what they did or how much she hated them. She's never been happy at putting a baddie down, no matter how difficult it had been to do.

He doesn't see strength of character in the others. Only bloodlust.
Kinda explains why he doesn't want to be like them. Why he wants to do the things they don't do, like mourn for the innocents killed that they didn't even know. Like moping and avoiding others when they are preparing for the next confrontation and trying to maximize their chances of survival.

I flippin' hate this guy. I want someone to clobber him.

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by swicked on Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:38 am

Mister Frost wrote:Woops, accidental downvote. 

Anyway, that's kind of the point--Taylor doesn't really care about them, either. She grows to like them, sure, but she doesn't consider them family like the Undersiders were. It doesn't help that their main bonding experience is chafing under the PRT's restrictions, rather than the Undersiders' facing off against everyone from heroes to E88's spawn to the Nine.

Spoiler:
Actually, from a recent exchange between Theo and whatever their tinker's name is, it sounds like a lot of it's because of the directors.

Glen, the image consultant with a terrible image, impressed upon her the need to wow as many higher-ups as possible to keep these directors who have it out for her from locking her out of the protectorate. From messing with her life, finding a reason to kick her off the wards, and blocking her from eventually pursuing Jack and the S9.
Plus she's under house arrest and has no family nearby to visit or any chance at a social life outside of work. Not that she's particularly social, anyway.

She's career focused, as a result. She works too hard and, apparently, expects too much of the others. She cost one of the other girls her boyfriend after requiring too many late night missions for the team. She puts others at risk but insists the Wards handle everything themselves since she can't afford failure.
She's somewhat self centered and isn't fun for them. Not particularly different than she was with the Undersiders, truth be told, given all the crap they had to deal with all the time... but now she had even less reason to relax.
She needed someone like Tattletale to force her to drop her guard and demand they go see a movie or something. To know when she's struggling and help out. Maybe someone like Rachel who is similarly a strong outsider. Maybe someone like Grue who had a worthwhile goal in life and needed her help to achieve it.

Other than Theo, who was a sad sap, the rest were just teenagers and have no grand mission or plan for the future. At least, nothing they are pursuing anywhere near as viciously as she is. None had the perspective or insight to attempt to understand her, let alone any interest in trying to.
She's just not the type to open up for no reason, so they never had a chance at being her friends.

I got a bit annoyed by some of the conversation between Theo and the tinker regarding if Theo liked her and how he shouldn't pursue anything due to her attitude.
While I wouldn't disagree they'd be a bad match, a doormat and a champion, the tone of the conversation made it sound like no one should find her attractive mentally/personality-wise. That coupled with Grue's assessment of Taylor's physical looks the first night they had sex in which he was absolutely anything but complimentary... yeah.
Taylor isn't that far of from the exact kind of person I always figured I'd end up marrying. Minus the superpowers and the age gap.
Probably a silly thing to get annoyed over, her being fictional, but yeah.


Last edited by swicked on Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typing posts on a phone is hard. Grammar really suffers when you can't see more than a dozen words or so at a time and thus can't see the beginning and thus can't see any sentence in its entirety.)

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:15 am

swicked wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:Woops, accidental downvote. 

Anyway, that's kind of the point--Taylor doesn't really care about them, either. She grows to like them, sure, but she doesn't consider them family like the Undersiders were. It doesn't help that their main bonding experience is chafing under the PRT's restrictions, rather than the Undersiders' facing off against everyone from heroes to E88's spawn to the Nine.

Spoiler:
Actually, from a recent exchange between Theo and whatever their tinker's name is, it sounds like a lot of it's because of the directors.

Glen, the image consultant with a terrible image, impressed upon her the need to wow as many higher-ups as possible to keep these directors who have it out for her from locking her out of the protectorate. From messing with her life, finding a reason to kick her off the wards, and blocking her from eventually pursuing Jack and the S9.
Plus she's under house arrest and has no family nearby to visit or any chance at a social life outside of work. Not that she's particularly social, anyway.

She's career focused, as a result. She works too hard and, apparently, expects too much of the others. She cost one of the other girls her boyfriend after requiring too many late night missions for the team. She puts others at risk but insists the Wards handle everything themselves since she can't afford failure.
She's somewhat self centered and isn't fun for them. Not particularly different than she was with the Undersiders, truth be told, given all the crap they had to deal with all the time... but now she had even less reason to relax.
She needed someone like Tattletale to force her to drop her guard and demand they go see a movie or something. To know when she's struggling and help out. Maybe someone like Rachel who is similarly a strong outsider. No one like Grue, though. Maybe someone like Grue who had a worthwhile goal in life and needed her help to achieve it.

Other than Theo, who was a sad sap, the rest were just teenagers and have no grand mission or plan for the future. At least, nothing they are pursuing anywhere near as viciously as she is. None had the perspective or insight to attempt to understand to, let alone care to.
She's just not the type to open up for no reason, so they never had a chance at being her friends.

I got a bit annoyed by some of the conversation between Theo and the tinker regarding if Theo liked her and how he shouldn't pursue anything due to her attitude.
While I wouldn't disagree they'd be a bad match, a doormat and a champion, the tone of the conversation made it sound like no one should find her attractive mentally/personality-wise. That coupled with Grue's assessment of Taylor's physical looks the first night they had sex in which he was absolutely anything but complimentary... yeah.
Taylor isn't that far of from the exact kind of person I always figured I'd end up marrying. Minus the superpowers and the age gap.
Probably a silly thing to get annoyed over, her being fictional, but yeah.
Spoiler:

I agree entirely. While Taylor's intensely driven nature barely drew any glances from the Jndersiders (since she just appeared to be coping better than most with the outrageous tempo of events they were getting swept up in, then moving to acting as you'd expect a warlord of a highly-contested area to) the Chicago Wards are not only ignorant of the impending apocalypse, but still optimistic (in the wake of Scion butt-raping Behemoth) that the Endbringer situation'll get worked out. All they (as a kind of passive bunch of slackers) see is a way-too-intense girl with a chip on her shoulder and something to prove. 

Though that's, again, saying more about them than her. As we and other's can see, she's intensely driven and somewhat socially awkward, and she is shouldering a good deal of responsibility for the world-ending threat about to come down (which is why she defected, really--to end one of the biggest cape conflicts in America at the time so they could get back to focusing on the real threat.)

I'm also inclined to agree with you on that last part. I get that Taylor may not be the stereotypical image of beauty and may be a bit intense for the tastes of the Wards, but a good deal of people actually like the slender bodytype (and a lot of people, especially women, find that sort of intense drive and focus attractive. Hell, Armsmaster's the same way, and he swayed Dragon with it. 
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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by swicked on Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:35 am

Mister Frost wrote:
swicked wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:Woops, accidental downvote. 

Anyway, that's kind of the point--Taylor doesn't really care about them, either. She grows to like them, sure, but she doesn't consider them family like the Undersiders were. It doesn't help that their main bonding experience is chafing under the PRT's restrictions, rather than the Undersiders' facing off against everyone from heroes to E88's spawn to the Nine.

Spoiler:
Actually, from a recent exchange between Theo and whatever their tinker's name is, it sounds like a lot of it's because of the directors.

Glen, the image consultant with a terrible image, impressed upon her the need to wow as many higher-ups as possible to keep these directors who have it out for her from locking her out of the protectorate. From messing with her life, finding a reason to kick her off the wards, and blocking her from eventually pursuing Jack and the S9.
Plus she's under house arrest and has no family nearby to visit or any chance at a social life outside of work. Not that she's particularly social, anyway.

She's career focused, as a result. She works too hard and, apparently, expects too much of the others. She cost one of the other girls her boyfriend after requiring too many late night missions for the team. She puts others at risk but insists the Wards handle everything themselves since she can't afford failure.
She's somewhat self centered and isn't fun for them. Not particularly different than she was with the Undersiders, truth be told, given all the crap they had to deal with all the time... but now she had even less reason to relax.
She needed someone like Tattletale to force her to drop her guard and demand they go see a movie or something. To know when she's struggling and help out. Maybe someone like Rachel who is similarly a strong outsider. No one like Grue, though. Maybe someone like Grue who had a worthwhile goal in life and needed her help to achieve it.

Other than Theo, who was a sad sap, the rest were just teenagers and have no grand mission or plan for the future. At least, nothing they are pursuing anywhere near as viciously as she is. None had the perspective or insight to attempt to understand to, let alone care to.
She's just not the type to open up for no reason, so they never had a chance at being her friends.

I got a bit annoyed by some of the conversation between Theo and the tinker regarding if Theo liked her and how he shouldn't pursue anything due to her attitude.
While I wouldn't disagree they'd be a bad match, a doormat and a champion, the tone of the conversation made it sound like no one should find her attractive mentally/personality-wise. That coupled with Grue's assessment of Taylor's physical looks the first night they had sex in which he was absolutely anything but complimentary... yeah.
Taylor isn't that far of from the exact kind of person I always figured I'd end up marrying. Minus the superpowers and the age gap.
Probably a silly thing to get annoyed over, her being fictional, but yeah.
Spoiler:

I agree entirely. While Taylor's intensely driven nature barely drew any glances from the Jndersiders (since she just appeared to be coping better than most with the outrageous tempo of events they were getting swept up in, then moving to acting as you'd expect a warlord of a highly-contested area to) the Chicago Wards are not only ignorant of the impending apocalypse, but still optimistic (in the wake of Scion butt-raping Behemoth) that the Endbringer situation'll get worked out. All they (as a kind of passive bunch of slackers) see is a way-too-intense girl with a chip on her shoulder and something to prove. 

Though that's, again, saying more about them than her. As we and other's can see, she's intensely driven and somewhat socially awkward, and she is shouldering a good deal of responsibility for the world-ending threat about to come down (which is why she defected, really--to end one of the biggest cape conflicts in America at the time so they could get back to focusing on the real threat.)

I'm also inclined to agree with you on that last part. I get that Taylor may not be the stereotypical image of beauty and may be a bit intense for the tastes of the Wards, but a good deal of people actually like the slender bodytype (and a lot of people, especially women, find that sort of intense drive and focus attractive. Hell, Armsmaster's the same way, and he swayed Dragon with it. 

Spoiler:
I never quite figured out if they realized she literally did have something to prove and, if she didn't prove herself, she was up shit creek. I can imagine her telling them pretty directly were any to just straight-out ask "Why do you work so hard?"
I guess the question is if they ever even showed that much interest in her as opposed to simply getting frustrated.

I'm really surprised there were no other Endbringer deaths after Behemoth, to be honest. This new Endbringer that's a tower that sent up traps in the area doesn't move much at all, it seems. The bird Endbringer is the weakest of the entire lot and the only way she knows how to get away is by flying up into the atmosphere, where Scion clearly could follow. If Leviathan is dragged far-enough away from water (which the triumvirate would be very capable of doing) he'd have no way to escape Scion. It doesn't make much sense to me. Jack's just been defeated, though, so I figure it won't matter for too much longer why Scion didn't destroy any of the others.

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Frost on Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:14 pm

swicked wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:
swicked wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:Woops, accidental downvote. 

Anyway, that's kind of the point--Taylor doesn't really care about them, either. She grows to like them, sure, but she doesn't consider them family like the Undersiders were. It doesn't help that their main bonding experience is chafing under the PRT's restrictions, rather than the Undersiders' facing off against everyone from heroes to E88's spawn to the Nine.

Spoiler:
Actually, from a recent exchange between Theo and whatever their tinker's name is, it sounds like a lot of it's because of the directors.

Glen, the image consultant with a terrible image, impressed upon her the need to wow as many higher-ups as possible to keep these directors who have it out for her from locking her out of the protectorate. From messing with her life, finding a reason to kick her off the wards, and blocking her from eventually pursuing Jack and the S9.
Plus she's under house arrest and has no family nearby to visit or any chance at a social life outside of work. Not that she's particularly social, anyway.

She's career focused, as a result. She works too hard and, apparently, expects too much of the others. She cost one of the other girls her boyfriend after requiring too many late night missions for the team. She puts others at risk but insists the Wards handle everything themselves since she can't afford failure.
She's somewhat self centered and isn't fun for them. Not particularly different than she was with the Undersiders, truth be told, given all the crap they had to deal with all the time... but now she had even less reason to relax.
She needed someone like Tattletale to force her to drop her guard and demand they go see a movie or something. To know when she's struggling and help out. Maybe someone like Rachel who is similarly a strong outsider. No one like Grue, though. Maybe someone like Grue who had a worthwhile goal in life and needed her help to achieve it.

Other than Theo, who was a sad sap, the rest were just teenagers and have no grand mission or plan for the future. At least, nothing they are pursuing anywhere near as viciously as she is. None had the perspective or insight to attempt to understand to, let alone care to.
She's just not the type to open up for no reason, so they never had a chance at being her friends.

I got a bit annoyed by some of the conversation between Theo and the tinker regarding if Theo liked her and how he shouldn't pursue anything due to her attitude.
While I wouldn't disagree they'd be a bad match, a doormat and a champion, the tone of the conversation made it sound like no one should find her attractive mentally/personality-wise. That coupled with Grue's assessment of Taylor's physical looks the first night they had sex in which he was absolutely anything but complimentary... yeah.
Taylor isn't that far of from the exact kind of person I always figured I'd end up marrying. Minus the superpowers and the age gap.
Probably a silly thing to get annoyed over, her being fictional, but yeah.
Spoiler:

I agree entirely. While Taylor's intensely driven nature barely drew any glances from the Jndersiders (since she just appeared to be coping better than most with the outrageous tempo of events they were getting swept up in, then moving to acting as you'd expect a warlord of a highly-contested area to) the Chicago Wards are not only ignorant of the impending apocalypse, but still optimistic (in the wake of Scion butt-raping Behemoth) that the Endbringer situation'll get worked out. All they (as a kind of passive bunch of slackers) see is a way-too-intense girl with a chip on her shoulder and something to prove. 

Though that's, again, saying more about them than her. As we and other's can see, she's intensely driven and somewhat socially awkward, and she is shouldering a good deal of responsibility for the world-ending threat about to come down (which is why she defected, really--to end one of the biggest cape conflicts in America at the time so they could get back to focusing on the real threat.)

I'm also inclined to agree with you on that last part. I get that Taylor may not be the stereotypical image of beauty and may be a bit intense for the tastes of the Wards, but a good deal of people actually like the slender bodytype (and a lot of people, especially women, find that sort of intense drive and focus attractive. Hell, Armsmaster's the same way, and he swayed Dragon with it. 

Spoiler:
I never quite figured out if they realized she literally did have something to prove and, if she didn't prove herself, she was up shit creek. I can imagine her telling them pretty directly were any to just straight-out ask "Why do you work so hard?"
I guess the question is if they ever even showed that much interest in her as opposed to simply getting frustrated.

I'm really surprised there were no other Endbringer deaths after Behemoth, to be honest. This new Endbringer that's a tower that sent up traps in the area doesn't move much at all, it seems. The bird Endbringer is the weakest of the entire lot and the only way she knows how to get away is by flying up into the atmosphere, where Scion clearly could follow. If Leviathan is dragged far-enough away from water (which the triumvirate would be very capable of doing) he'd have no way to escape Scion. It doesn't make much sense to me. Jack's just been defeated, though, so I figure it won't matter for too much longer why Scion didn't destroy any of the others.
Spoiler:
Intimidation likely has a large factor in it. One doesn't want to go running up to the girl who conquered a city, drove off or killed several powerful villain groups, took on numerous S-Class threats, and killed one of the Triumvirate, just to ask her why she's so weird and intense, or even just to extend a friendly greeting. They were likely pleasantly surprised that she's not the brutal maniac her reputation might suggest, but they were't in any sort of mood to cozy up to her. 

As for dealing with the Endbringers.....easier said than done, as we've seen. Behemoth is an absolute powerhouse, Leviathan's a speed-demon that summons tidal waves, the Simurgh is, in her own way, even worse than either of them, Konsou teleports and warps time, and Toho-Boho can dominate and trap down an entire area while locking down anyone from entering or leaving. If it can be done, it's been tried, and it didn't work. 

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by swicked on Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:32 pm

continuing convo with frost minus the quote tunnel:

They picked her, remember? Tecton was excited to have her on the team. As was Grace and I think one other. Not Golem. He is a sad sap, after all, and has decided he's the only hero who isn't cold and hard inside.
They picked her knowing all that stuff about her. I don't know that they would if they were that intimidated by her.

What is Tohu-Bohu based on? Google is failing me.
Konsou was weirdly named for a fat black time buddha, in either any case.

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Re: Worm Discussion Thread

Post by Scienza on Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:39 pm

swicked wrote:
continuing convo with frost minus the quote tunnel:

They picked her, remember? Tecton was excited to have her on the team. As was Grace and I think one other. Not Golem. He is a sad sap, after all, and has decided he's the only hero who isn't cold and hard inside.
They picked her knowing all that stuff about her. I don't know that they would if they were that intimidated by her.

What is Tohu-Bohu based on? Google is failing me.
Konsou was weirdly named for a fat black time buddha, in either any case.
Spoiler:
I'm assuming it's from this.
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