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Conviction Discussion thread

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:24 pm

Rare is the tale with the nerve to plunge the depths of true darkness. Most lose their nerve for the sake of keeping characters 'relatable'. To me, a character with strange and vastly different morality and motivations is far more interesting to explore than Average Joe #3617

And I likewise agree with the point of hate vs. love. Yeah, yeah, love is wonderful and puts light in the soul or what-the-fuck-ever, but it's hate that'll drive someone to the ends of the Earth and to the depths of depravity to tear down and destroy in days or hours what took years or decades to build. The notion of a thousand-year-old empire being cracked and damaged, if not outright gutted, because one of one bloody-minded soldier with nothing to lose, is a poetic sort of not-really-irony that I can't resist.
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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Stringtheory on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:31 pm

I've yet to see a ponyfic dive straight into True Darkness, a few that I've read had the chance to at a few points but the author always steered away from that path. The main problem I see with True Darkness is audience apathy setting in pretty quickly so you have to have light spot in order to keep the audience invested and that revokes True Darkness status...


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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:42 pm

Yeah, friendship and love winning out died before Chase's body had even gone cold.
I want to keep reading the legend of a monster.

Celestia's standing order is still to put down all batponies. Slight's killing of Pyra will have the element bearers hunt her to the ends of the earth, whether or not she keeps loyalty with her.

This story might surprise me with an inexplicably happy ending, but there is no path to happiness right now.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:58 pm

Given the aversion to violence and more 'permanent' solutions to her enemies in the series proper, I expect whatever becomes of Slight and the quest for vengeance to be so brutal and tragic that Celestia loses her stomach for war and violence in its entirety.
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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:00 pm

Mister Frost wrote:Given the aversion to violence and more 'permanent' solutions to her enemies in the series proper, I expect whatever becomes of Slight and the quest for vengeance to be so brutal and tragic that Celestia loses her stomach for war and violence in its entirety.
You cannot imagine my grin right now :D

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:02 pm

It appears we are of an accord, then.
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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:07 pm

It's one thing for an immortal, all powerful goddess to remember and miss someone they knew and loved a millenia after their passing.

It's quite another for that goddess to still sometimes wake up screaming at the nightmares a determined mortal visited upon her and everything she held dear.

I get chills just thinking about it.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:13 pm

I forget if it's said if Celestia was the element of magic. What a climax, though, if that is where this goes. If Slight kills (or plays a part in arranging the death of, and then is blamed for, killing) the element bearers (with considerable difficulty, of course) but is finally stopped just short of bringing everything down over Celestia's head.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Vinylshadow on Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:25 pm

swicked wrote:
Vinylshadow wrote:Really hope Song makes some friends; otherwise she's definitely going to die a gruesome death in rather short order...
I haven't read this in a long while, but I really hope she doesn't make friends at all. At least, not anytime soon.
No one could care as much about her mission as she does and I don't want anyone to temper her. To try and give her a reason to think outside of that mission.
She isn't dark-enough yet. She has despaired and raged, but there isn't enough hate in her. I want her to become something explicitly unsettling. A real monster.
She gave mercy to that medic, But she eventually becomes a legend as something horrible. Even a glimmer of happiness should not come so easily in this tale.

Palpatine, is that you?

-

An immortal, all-powerful Alicorn as an Element Bearer that doesn't get up off her ass and immediately track down whoever killed a Bearer?
I hope Celestia isn't that moronic...

If I was Celestia, I'd come up with a way to track down Nightkin to either slaughter them all or put them all into safe custody and teach them that Celestians aren't evil; that Nightmare Moon and Luna are not the same pony; Incorporate them into the regular guard so that they will be ready to welcome Luna home

But, with how the story's going so far...

Theory:
There's some kind of epic showdown in the Everfree that ends with Slight somehow cursing the place, keeping anyone from getting to or using the Elements unless they use them with pure hearts with no evil in them.

Or something like that; I don't know. I try to steer clear of using the Everfree in my stories since it's been done thousands of times (Nyx, Dawn. Lero, etc)
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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:32 pm

Is the fact that Loyalty was killed by someone she thought was an ally poetic?
I wonder what it would be like if every one of them died like that. A subversion of their element, I mean. A deception.
The elements allow them to detect the presence or absense of their element in others, making it both a strength and weakness. Pyra could never have been killed by a traitor. She'd see them coming. Only by someone loyal... but to the other side.
For Honesty, Slight could convince someone of something who would then tell the Honesty guy. Due to the extra degree of separation, Honesty guy would believe a messenger who thought they were telling the truth and wouldn't suspect the message.
Thus he could be lured to his death... or, possibly, betrayed. Or led to kill or do something that'd get him killed. I dunno.
I think that's ironic and I can't help hoping for it.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Vinylshadow on Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:46 pm

You could also get away with vague answers, or telling a half-truth

"Is the pony who killed Loyalty here?"

"Yes"

"Truth."

She never said who it was, so Honesty thought it was Slight, since she was the who that admitted it.

Maybe something along the lines of "I can help you find the pony that killed Pyra." and lead him a merry Chase...

*winces at unintentional pun*

Although if we run into another "Finds two elements together; kills one, the other gets away" scene, I'm going to be annoyed at using the same scenario more than once...or I might let it slide if it's well executed - preferably with the death of two Elements at once
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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:06 pm

swicked wrote:Is the fact that Loyalty was killed by someone she thought was an ally poetic?
I wonder what it would be like if every one of them died like that. A subversion of their element, I mean. A deception.
The elements allow them to detect the presence or absense of their element in others, making it both a strength and weakness. Pyra could never have been killed by a traitor. She'd see them coming. Only by someone loyal... but to the other side.
For Honesty, Slight could convince someone of something who would then tell the Honesty guy. Due to the extra degree of separation, Honesty guy would believe a messenger who thought they were telling the truth and wouldn't suspect the message.
Thus he could be lured to his death... or, possibly, betrayed. Or led to kill or do something that'd get him killed. I dunno.
I think that's ironic and I can't help hoping for it.
I would absolutely love for all the bearers' deaths to be ironic, especially considering the self-righteousness we've seen so far (the "good guys", element bearers included, are more than happy to slaughter an entire training camp/fort; children, servants, and surrendering combatants included) I really do want to see the attributes that made them so assured in their own righteousness and gave them so much self-proclaimed moral authority being used to bring their whole world crashing down on their head.
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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Vinylshadow on Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:23 pm

Loyalty killed by traitors
Honesty killed by deceit
Generosity killed by greed (selfishness?)
Kindness killed by cruelty
Laughter killed by anger
Magic killed by...hm...a pony stripped of their magic?

Virtues killed by sins; how delicious~
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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by DoomManta on Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:43 pm

Pyra wrote:We’re rescuing those damn foals, you hear me?
(chapter 6)

While the Celestians absolutely did slaughter all the Nightkin, in their minds they were storming hell to save civilians from their demonic captors (or something like that). It's not like they're monsters who blindly kill their fellow ponies...

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:53 pm

...didn't they spare the servants, too? I could swear I remember them being spared. They "only" killed anyone with webbed wings and fangs.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Valikdu on Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:27 pm

swicked wrote:You cannot imagine my grin right now :D

?
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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:48 pm

Mister Frost wrote:
swicked wrote:Is the fact that Loyalty was killed by someone she thought was an ally poetic?
I wonder what it would be like if every one of them died like that. A subversion of their element, I mean. A deception.
The elements allow them to detect the presence or absense of their element in others, making it both a strength and weakness. Pyra could never have been killed by a traitor. She'd see them coming. Only by someone loyal... but to the other side.
For Honesty, Slight could convince someone of something who would then tell the Honesty guy. Due to the extra degree of separation, Honesty guy would believe a messenger who thought they were telling the truth and wouldn't suspect the message.
Thus he could be lured to his death... or, possibly, betrayed. Or led to kill or do something that'd get him killed. I dunno.
I think that's ironic and I can't help hoping for it.
I would absolutely love for all the bearers' deaths to be ironic, especially considering the self-righteousness we've seen so far (the "good guys", element bearers included, are more than happy to slaughter an entire training camp/fort; children, servants, and surrendering combatants included) I really do want to see the attributes that made them so assured in their own righteousness and gave them so much self-proclaimed moral authority being used to bring their whole world crashing down on their head.

No, they didn't kill the children, or the servants. And combatants surrendered? The only one I know of was the dickhead who just pretended to surrender. It's hard to feel bad for the nightkin when the leader they worship is okay with so many horrible things involving the children they kidnap. Maybe celestials are just as bad but all I know of is the way they treat their enemy. This is how the nightkin treat the people under their care.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:46 pm

Last wrote:No, they didn't kill the children, or the servants. And combatants surrendered? The only one I know of was the dickhead who just pretended to surrender. It's hard to feel bad for the nightkin when the leader they worship is okay with so many horrible things involving the children they kidnap. Maybe celestials are just as bad but all I know of is the way they treat their enemy. This is how the nightkin treat the people under their care.
He was the victim of blatant mindrape. He was the first, or of the first, Luna turned into a nightkin. He argued with her a lot and I remember his being traitorous. She didn't want to let him go, though, so yeah.
I really think he could have been surrendering. In the end, though, they were going to kill him anyway, so he decided to give their champion one last bite. After all, for all the people she'd killed that day, she hadn't gotten a scratch. There's a phrase about deciding to maim oneself just to give an enemy a bloody nose. That was basically his last thought.
Pira, IIRC, stated that they had orders not to let any nightkin live. Others could have potentially surrendered and the result would be the same. It was an extermination mission.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:35 am

Fair enough, but I don't agree with that interpretation. I don't think he ever planned to surrender.

Well, I didn't see any others, I wasn't shown any I think it's safe to say they don't exist.

Not disagreeing, it definitely was, but consider what NMM wanted to do with Goldy on her first night at the castle. Considering the things that these people do ranging from what is child abuse to beating slaves I have a hard time caring about the fact that a group wanted them dead.

The nightkin might be victims of nmm but that sympathy runs a little dry when they bring in others to be her victims.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:05 pm

...it's still genocide. No matter how unlikely you might feel it was for any nightkin to surrender, Celestia's forces were ordered to wipe all of them out. They did this across the entire nation.
They also wiped out all those priests, but I can't remember if that was because they resisted a lot.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Vinylshadow on Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:25 pm

Long live the Glorious Solar Empire?
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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:51 pm

Okay, but that doesn't change the fact the nightkin kidnapped and abused children.

Vinyl, have you read the story? I'm confused why you're posting here.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:03 pm

I'm confused why he's posting anywhere
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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:23 pm

Last wrote:Okay, but that doesn't change the fact the nightkin kidnapped and abused children.
I'm not saying they didn't. Those nightkin that didn't participate in the abductions, at the very least, allowed them to occur. As did a great many ponies in positions of power across the nation.
I guess I'm just asking if you really think that justifies killing every last one of them with no quarter given.

You also have to consider that all of them save the first couple generations were raised within the fortress from a very young age, in an environment where it was established that these abductions were normal and necessary, and lived what they considered to be good, worthwhile lives. Slight might have had a good life with her parents, but she also had a very positive relationship with Chase. That wasn't due to stockholm syndrome, she wasn't abused into liking her, but they were definitely close friends by the end.
...which hardly matters, I suppose, because again, Slight abided by the abduction of children as a part of life as a nightkin of Luna's army. So yeah... both abusee and abuser.

I dunno, you just seem to be making this out as a lot more cut and dry than I feel it is. Maybe the genocide was mostly due to what the nightkin had done but it was, at least, partially due to what they were. Fades. Monsters.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:57 pm

Yes it was a regular event that occured, but I'm not sure how that changes anything. It wasn't something that the parents or the children wanted if Goldy's parents and Goldy's reaction once she realized what was going on is the norm. Seeing as the other kids that were a little brighter then Goldy reacted the same way only sooner I would assume that's true.

And I don't think having a good relationship with the person who kidnapped you makes up for it. Or even begins to make up for it.

I'd feel it was more justified if they allowed them to surrender, but they didn't surrender. You think his surrender was genuine and representitive of more than just himself. I don't.


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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:15 pm

Eh.
I want another chapter to come out.
I wish DoomManta had given us a timetable for his editing.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by DoomManta on Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:28 pm

As far as I'm concerned, the Celestians gave up any kind of moral high ground the instant they decided to not bother even trying to get the nightkin to surrender.

I finished my editing run of the chapter, but I'm not the only person looking it over. But judging from progress, I'd guess it'll go up in the next few days.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:32 pm

I agree, Mant (man, my nicknames are awkward sometimes)

In any event, I look forward to it.
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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:48 pm

Eh, the nightkin lost it for me when they kidnapped children and slipped further down the ground when NMM suggested bringing Goldy into a threeway between her and Chase.

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Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:54 pm

Last wrote:Eh, the nightkin lost it for me when they kidnapped children and slipped further down the ground when NMM suggested bringing Goldy into a threeway between her and Chase.
Especially considering that Chase declined that offer, Nightmare Moon's own relative debauchery has little bearing on her soldiers' deaths. The relative sympathy of the Nightkin, in fact, is completely irrelevant to the fact that the Celestians committed a war crime.

 If I get sent to Syria and shoot a surrendering ISIS member in the dick because he beheaded fifteen Kurdish children, that is still murder and still a war crime. If I take his watch once he's dead, that's still looting and still a war crime. The likelihood of my facing courts-martial for said war crime is dependent on who, exactly, witnesses it; but the law is the law.
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