Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by Downloaded Skill Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:26 am

So this was a really good chapter. Lots of humor and we caught up with a lot of factions, but I have several questions.

If Grace knew a clothing alteration spell why does she care so much about minor tears? "Alteration" is a VERY vague descriptor in this regard. Is it just a matter of principle? Nice clothing must be extremely rare and hard to come by.

I'm really curious about the Minotaurs. Was Pain Train a shaman turn mercenary? It's a personal thing but I love learning about other cultures and how / why they view things.

So many adorable and heart warming moments. The question is what will Ryx draw first? I personally like Boo and her council.

Is the fact that people survived 99 a good thing? Is it really? How did they survive in maintenance? What did they eat?

Is Glory's development healthy? Is this really how she wants to be or is she just emulating Blackjack for her approval and ease of mind? Is she just trying to twist a bad event in a way that allows her to think she owns her own body?

Will the fact that P-21 slept with BJ and Glory screw with his head? I don't think P-21 himself is even sure where he stands and he might interpret it as being taken advantage of again given how he referenced 99 in his waking moments. P-21 always struck me as someone who wanted to be appreciated and this certainly doesn't seem like the optimal situation for him.

by O. Hinds Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:00 am

Downloaded Skill wrote:So this was a really good chapter. Lots of humor and we caught up with a lot of factions, but I have several questions.

I don't have answers for all of them, but let's see...

Downloaded Skill wrote:If Grace knew a clothing alteration spell why does she care so much about minor tears? "Alteration" is a VERY vague descriptor in this regard. Is it just a matter of principle? Nice clothing must be extremely rare and hard to come by.

It's not Grace who really cares, it's Charity. Sure, Grace could repair the clothing for Charity, but that would either cost Charity money (a cost that would then be passed on to Blackjack, with a markup) or result in Charity accepting charity, which I doubt that she'd be keen on. Hence the "No damage or else."

Downloaded Skill wrote:I'm really curious about the Minotaurs. Was Pain Train a shaman turn mercenary? It's a personal thing but I love learning about other cultures and how / why they view things.

Have you thought of stopping by the headcanon thread sometime? Meleagridis has been doing a lot of work with minotaurs for the universe we're developing, and I too am interested to see how this new information is worked in (I'm certain, after a bit of pondering, that it can be, at least with what I've been told, but I don't know the details).

Downloaded Skill wrote:Will the fact that P-21 slept with BJ and Glory screw with his head? I don't think P-21 himself is even sure where he stands and he might interpret it as being taken advantage of again given how he referenced 99 in his waking moments. P-21 always struck me as someone who wanted to be appreciated and this certainly doesn't seem like the optimal situation for him.

Aye, I'm expecting angst about this. Which comes at the same time as Blackjack vanishing, of course, which will not help matters.

by StoneSlinger88 Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:41 am

Downloaded Skill wrote:
Is the fact that people survived 99 a good thing? Is it really? How did they survive in maintenance? What did they eat?

Well, if they're anything like me, they've got food/supplies stashed anywhere they may spend an extended amount of time (for example, my gun cleaning table). With the maintenance crews, I believe it has been stated that they do stash quite a bit of food/liquids down there in case they have to spend a large amount of time on repairs or just don't want to deal with the Overseer.

by Luminous Lead Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:40 am

Man, there were so many fun things in this chapter, I didn't keep a running count. Have to say I loved the Lady Boo scene (who wouldn't?) and thought Deus was very touching.

I'm a bit surprised at who was made regent (I suspected it would be Lancer, just to be Blackjacky), but it certainly made the most amount of sense. I liked that Charm was too unstable for leadership and left out in a way that clearly displayed her faults.

Pain Train's earth/rock/land philosophy has been pretty much unheard-of up until this point, but it was a nice touch that adds a bit more flavour to the story. I liked how he was willing to follow one who "wanted to save the little stones", after he called Blackjack out on her racist idioms.

P-21 wrote:“You’re not going crazy, Glory. You’re in a relationship with Blackjack. It’s not unpleasant, but it is a little surreal. It would be easy to simply dismiss her, but you can’t. It’d be better to leave her, but you won’t. And even though it hurts to be around her, you can’t help but want to be there just in case she needs you.”

Et tù, 21? Can't help but think that he's projecting here.

P-21 wrote:“Time to go?” he muttered sluggishly. “Don’t call medical. They’ll think I did a bad job.”

I got chills right there. The ghost of 99 haunts him still. Can't say I'm too happy about what BJ did here. Kind of overshadowed the whole "It's time" thing for me.

Speaking of the goddess, I'm surprised that she didn't take EC-1101 with her, given its value. Then again, she knows where it is and can come back for it. Wouldn't want to lose it if she's trying to pit Security against Stable Dweller.

Also, nice IHNMYIMS reference at the end there.

by Kippershy Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:42 am

swicked wrote:
Derpmind wrote:
Somber wrote:I'm glad the chapter went okay. I know 4chan won't like it, but they don't like anything. Seriously. I have never seen them praise any story. So I've learned not to be sorry about not gaining something that I'm not going to get.

So I finally gave in to curiosity and took a look at the fallout equestria thread on 4chan. I am really upset by what I saw there, but I know some of us don't want to talk about it, so I'm hoping we can keep it in spoiler tags please.

Angry Rant:
I don't really want to talk about this, but let's get it over with:

All I gotta say is spot on. That's pretty much exactly how it is.

by Luminous Lead Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:06 am

Somber wrote:I do have one regret about the chapter though. No song. I have one in my head for it. I have the music in my head for it, but I have no way to create it. I imagined P-21 telling Blackjack to finally relax as they twirl around the dance floor. Then Glory jumps in. Then P-21. Then both of them together. Then fade to the 'ahem' scene. Since it's a slow song, I can't find real world analogies to use.

A song for an impossible dream, for a whirlwind of happiness... oh man, oh man! I know what works for me! Or, check this one for added nostalgic value.

by O. Hinds Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:09 am

Luminous Lead wrote:Also, nice IHNMYIMS reference at the end there.

…
[blank look]

by Luminous Lead Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:16 am

O. Hinds wrote:
Luminous Lead wrote:Also, nice IHNMYIMS reference at the end there.
…
[blank look]

Well, maybe it's not a direct reference, but what the Goddess is pulling is very similar to Harlan Ellison's work.

Spoiler:

To encapsulate the spirit, have a Trope Page.

by O. Hinds Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:30 am

Luminous Lead wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
Luminous Lead wrote:Also, nice IHNMYIMS reference at the end there.
…
[blank look]

Well, maybe it's not a direct reference, but what the Goddess is pulling is very similar to Harlan Ellison's work.

Spoiler:

To encapsulate the spirit, have a Trope Page.

Ah, thank you! ...Why did you use a Y for the and, though?

by Dambrony Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:39 am

StoneSlinger88 wrote:
Downloaded Skill wrote:
Is the fact that people survived 99 a good thing? Is it really? How did they survive in maintenance? What did they eat?

Well, if they're anything like me, they've got food/supplies stashed anywhere they may spend an extended amount of time (for example, my gun cleaning table). With the maintenance crews, I believe it has been stated that they do stash quite a bit of food/liquids down there in case they have to spend a large amount of time on repairs or just don't want to deal with the Overseer.

I remember in chapter 20-something 3 days after the liberation of 99, scotch tape said all she ate was "Boxed shit" (or something in the line of that) so there was still the old world supply they had in store. My guess is that they dont like the kind of food that was in storage (maybe it was MRE's or oatmeal, no sugar bombs I'm afraid) My guess is that they managed to make a rebreather for one of them to make a supply run to their panty for some sparkle cola. as for water, I dont think its contaminated by the raider virus, the only contamination was the wafer chips coming out of the --- (thing where they process food)

by Caoimhe Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:58 am

Luminous Lead wrote:
P-21 wrote:“Time to go?” he muttered sluggishly. “Don’t call medical. They’ll think I did a bad job.”
I got chills right there. The ghost of 99 haunts him still. Can't say I'm too happy about what BJ did here. Kind of overshadowed the whole "It's time" thing for me.

Oh, that was sincere? I took that line as him making a dry joke and coming to terms with what happened in 99. Hard to tell with "muttered sluggishly."

by O. Hinds Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:16 am

Caoimhe wrote:
Luminous Lead wrote:
P-21 wrote:“Time to go?” he muttered sluggishly. “Don’t call medical. They’ll think I did a bad job.”
I got chills right there. The ghost of 99 haunts him still. Can't say I'm too happy about what BJ did here. Kind of overshadowed the whole "It's time" thing for me.

Oh, that was sincere? I took that line as him making a dry joke and coming to terms with what happened in 99. Hard to tell with "muttered sluggishly."

Hm, point. However, while I don't know, I am currently assuming that it was sincere.

by Derpmind Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:36 am

O. Hinds wrote:
Caoimhe wrote:
Luminous Lead wrote:
P-21 wrote:“Time to go?” he muttered sluggishly. “Don’t call medical. They’ll think I did a bad job.”
I got chills right there. The ghost of 99 haunts him still. Can't say I'm too happy about what BJ did here. Kind of overshadowed the whole "It's time" thing for me.

Oh, that was sincere? I took that line as him making a dry joke and coming to terms with what happened in 99. Hard to tell with "muttered sluggishly."
Hm, point. However, while I don't know, I am currently assuming that it was sincere.

I think he's still more than a little out of it right then. BJ's the one with artificial liver and drinking experience, after all.

by SilentCarto Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:46 am

Downloaded Skill wrote:Is the fact that people survived 99 a good thing? Is it really? How did they survive in maintenance? What did they eat?

It sounds like they hoarded some stocks of food and water when the first attack came, and they stayed forted up in there for the entire duration. They must have also prepared for the possibility that the raiders outside would try to gas them out -- being maintenance ponies, that would tend to be on their minds anyway, after the previous insurrection -- which would explain what they breathed while the Stable was sealed and gassed. I'm wondering whether they cobbled together an "Apollo 13"-style scrubber system to keep the air fresh, or if they just snagged enough gas masks and relacement filters to last, and eventually emerged looking like the Ghost People.

Downloaded Skill wrote:Is Glory's development healthy? Is this really how she wants to be or is she just emulating Blackjack for her approval and ease of mind? Is she just trying to twist a bad event in a way that allows her to think she owns her own body?

If I remember correctly, she was only theoretically gay in the first place. That is to say, I seem to recall her saying hadn't had a serious romantic relationship before she shipped out with the Volunteer Corps.

You're concerned that she's emulating BJ now, but I wonder how much was she emulating her sister back home. (And emulating someone else is not a terrible thing -- that's the main way that young mammals learn, after all.) It's not like Glory has a meter that shows her exact gayness factor. "Sexuality is as sexuality does", so to speak, and I think she's mostly just stressing out because she's discovered that her tastes don't entirely conform to the conceptual label she had mentally applied to herself. Every relationship is unique, when you get right down to it. The only statement she can honestly make is, "I'd never met a stallion that I was interested in, and I thought I never would."

Downloaded Skill wrote:Will the fact that P-21 slept with BJ and Glory screw with his head? I don't think P-21 himself is even sure where he stands and he might interpret it as being taken advantage of again given how he referenced 99 in his waking moments. P-21 always struck me as someone who wanted to be appreciated and this certainly doesn't seem like the optimal situation for him.

Same argument goes here, really. As long as he's not being coerced, P-21 is the final arbiter of what he's comfortable with. The P-21/Glory thing has been building for a long time, and it's good to see them getting together without setting up some angsty love triangle. Actually, this is the first time I've felt comfortable that they won't both completely fall apart without BJ...

by Harmony Ltd. Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:59 am

Scotch Tape : "You mean the boring one is going to be my new mom ? Daaaaad !"

(The Gay Stallion x The Lesbian Mare => [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 22 373805__safe_animated_shipping_scootaloo_apple%2Bbloom_sweetie%2Bbelle_cutie%2Bmark%2Bcrusaders_hearts%2Band%2Bhooves%2Bday_descriptive%2Bnoise_x%2Bintensifies

[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion - Page 22 373805__safe_animated_shipping_scootaloo_apple%2Bbloom_sweetie%2Bbelle_cutie%2Bmark%2Bcrusaders_hearts%2Band%2Bhooves%2Bday_descriptive%2Bnoise_x%2Bintensifies

)

by Caoimhe Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:53 am

Woah, I didn't think of it that way. P-21 IS gay so that makes the scene more interesting. Looks like we'll have to wait to see what happens since BJ is off to goddessville.

by Downloaded Skill Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:28 pm

Balderdash! We don't have to wait for facts or canon we can just speculate wildly! We'll create our own canon and then get angry when Somber doesn't incorporate it. That's the internet way.

by Caoimhe Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:35 pm

"... and then we all fucked," an elderly Morning Glory finishes. As she finally closes the last of the 80 tomes that comprise The Book of Blackjack, she glances down at the gaping maws of a dozen foals - all too shocked to speak or cry.

With a small giggle, she leans back in her rocking chair and calmly stares out the window with a satisfied grin, basking in the light of the afternoon sun.

"And then... we all fucked."

THE END

by Moodyman90 Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:44 pm

"And we went here and fought these guys, then we fucked. We went here and saved these ponies, and we fucked. We got into a huge fight, and then we fucked.

We had sex, and then we fucked."

"What happened after that?"

"We lived happily ever after.... and then fucked."

by Somber Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:35 pm

If you want to know what P-21 was genetically, as in had he not been born in 99, he's mostly straight. Psychologically, however, he can't form an intimate connection with mares. The trauma is too severe. So he wants affection and gratification from males, seeing them as safe. When BJ experienced what he did, and when she spared scotch tape, and when she helped him with his addiction, it's made him able to be intimate with Blackjack. This is one reason why he's so disgusted with himself; he instinctively desires what he can't have.

Now a caveat and a mea culpa... I'm not gay. I had a few friends who are and so much of what I put into Glory, Blackjack, and P-21 is through them. I know there are people who say sexuality is fundamental above psychology and trauma and that you can no more abuse someone straight as abuse someone gay. I really don't know. So I apologize if I offend or if I don't do this right.

by Derpmind Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:38 pm

Why can't all three of them simply be bisexual?

by Moodyman90 Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:44 pm

All I can think of right now is a line from Tropic Thunder and I'm probably about to misquote it.

"Hell we're all a little bit gay! This is Hollywood!"

by Icy Shake Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:59 pm

Or . . . you know, recognize the fact that sexuality and romantic alignments are complex things and vary greatly from person to person. Or the fact that it's not really all that unusual for, for example, gay people to have sex with people of the opposite gender, for various reasons. The way I'd take this, personally, as that just like the mares of Stable 99 wanted more from P-21 than just sex, he expected that his intimacy, which certainly seems to have been romantic in nature, with another male (and presumably his ongoing romantic impulses with respect to stallions) would lead to sexual intimacy. And I don't have trouble envisioning how even under an assumption of highly rigid sexual orientation his default romantic orientation could nevertheless be shaped by his experience in the stable.

Perhaps more to the point, the nature of the story probably precludes any fanfare-obvious revelation of what his orientation would have been under different circumstances. Unless time travel or alternate worlds become involved, or a blank with his genetics but not his age and experiences, or something similar.

by O. Hinds Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:21 pm

Icy Shake wrote:Or . . . you know, recognize the fact that sexuality and romantic alignments are complex things and vary greatly from person to person. Or the fact that it's not really all that unusual for, for example, gay people to have sex with people of the opposite gender, for various reasons. The way I'd take this, personally, as that just like the mares of Stable 99 wanted more from P-21 than just sex, he expected that his intimacy, which certainly seems to have been romantic in nature, with another male (and presumably his ongoing romantic impulses with respect to stallions) would lead to sexual intimacy. And I don't have trouble envisioning how even under an assumption of highly rigid sexual orientation his default romantic orientation could nevertheless be shaped by his experience in the stable.

Perhaps more to the point, the nature of the story probably precludes any fanfare-obvious revelation of what his orientation would have been under different circumstances. Unless time travel or alternate worlds become involved, or a blank with his genetics but not his age and experiences, or something similar.

I still don't really get the concept of discrete sexual orientations. People are so very varied.

by Luminous Lead Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:24 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Luminous Lead wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
Luminous Lead wrote:Also, nice IHNMYIMS reference at the end there.
…
[blank look]
*Brief Explanation*
Ah, thank you! ...Why did you use a Y for the and, though?

I misremembered it as I Have No Mouth Yet I Must Scream, instead of I Have No Mouth & I Must Scream. Sorry for the confusion.

O. Hinds wrote:I still don't really get the concept of discrete sexual orientations. People are so very varied.

There's some indication that inclinations are at least partly genetic in base. Every now and then the 99 crew likes to speculate how things would've been if they'd grown up in a home that wasn't a rape factory. Short of the implausible methods mentioned earlier (time travel, alternate worlds, etc), Word Of God is probably the only way that we would find these thing out.

by Vergil Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:12 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:Or . . . you know, recognize the fact that sexuality and romantic alignments are complex things and vary greatly from person to person. Or the fact that it's not really all that unusual for, for example, gay people to have sex with people of the opposite gender, for various reasons. The way I'd take this, personally, as that just like the mares of Stable 99 wanted more from P-21 than just sex, he expected that his intimacy, which certainly seems to have been romantic in nature, with another male (and presumably his ongoing romantic impulses with respect to stallions) would lead to sexual intimacy. And I don't have trouble envisioning how even under an assumption of highly rigid sexual orientation his default romantic orientation could nevertheless be shaped by his experience in the stable.

Perhaps more to the point, the nature of the story probably precludes any fanfare-obvious revelation of what his orientation would have been under different circumstances. Unless time travel or alternate worlds become involved, or a blank with his genetics but not his age and experiences, or something similar.
I still don't really get the concept of discrete sexual orientations. People are so very varied.

Yeah, I'm with hinds on this one. At the very least in the case of PH, classifying an individual as "straight" or "gay" is a rather pointless and hopeless exercise, imo.

by Quotidian Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:24 pm

O. Hinds wrote:I still don't really get the concept of discrete sexual orientations. People are so very varied.

Because humans love our discrete categories. It's easier to lump people into two or three separate categories than it is to acknowledge the myriad differences in every person's romantic and sexual attractions. Hell, I'm of the mindset that pretty much everyone is bisexual to some degree, although it's debatable if a 90/10 or 95/5 split really counts as bisexuality.

Okay, P-21/Glory/BJ speculation time. Bear in mind that I'm on margarita numero quatro here, so anything I say is heavily tinged with alcohol.

I don't mind that P-21 hooked up with Glory and BJ. I honestly had him read as bisexual through most of the story, but too traumatized by 99 to every willingly act on any female attraction. Hence his insistence to Lacunae that he absolutely, definitely didn't love Blackjack. (Not sure what chapter that was in, but I remember it fairly well.) I'm not angry that he and Glory and BJ all slept together, so much as I am concerned that BJ's going to be gone when they wake up, and who knows what that will do for their mental health. At least this time it's not Blackjack's fault that she's run off. I think best case scenario, P-21 and Glory become closer while trying to process BJ's disappearance. Worst case scenario, they think she's run off to kill herself again and everything turns to shit.

by O. Hinds Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:34 pm

Luminous Lead wrote:I misremembered it as I Have No Mouth Yet I Must Scream, instead of I Have No Mouth & I Must Scream. Sorry for the confusion.

Tis fine.

Luminous Lead wrote:There's some indication that inclinations are at least partly genetic in base. Every now and then the 99 crew likes to speculate how things would've been if they'd grown up in a home that wasn't a rape factory. Short of the implausible methods mentioned earlier (time travel, alternate worlds, etc), Word Of God is probably the only way that we would find these thing out.

I think that there may have been a misunderstanding: I was speaking in general, not just about the story.

Quotidian wrote:Because humans love our discrete categories.

Hah, yes! The idea that I'm saying "Why do we need discrete categories for that?" still makes me laugh. In this case, though… I just don't see how really useful categories can be constructed; they'd either so broad that they're not a tremendously good fit for anyone or they'd be so narrow that a few billion of them would be needed to span humanity. I mean, I could be wrong, but it's such a complex thing. Though, also, I don't seem to really consider it all that important.

by Guest Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:09 pm

Chapter Things!:

@SexualityIsWeird
I'm pretty friggin' straight, but there are a reasonable number of guys out there, fictional and otherwise, who I wouldn't mind getting intimate with. Sexuality is weird.

by Luminous Lead Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:35 pm

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:Steel Rain showing up is worrying. That pendant he had is worrying.

Blackjack wrote:It was a simple round, plastic-covered disk on a nylon lanyard. Something about it was familiar, though. I placed it around my neck and tucked it out of sight beneath the dress.

I have a feeling that it's going to be very, very important in the coming chapters. Anyone else think "remote hacking device" when this popped up? Not that BJ's never been hacked before, as I'm pretty sure that Dr.Zodiac has been living vicariously through Blackjack's cybernetics (she DID seem well appraised of Blackjack's travels), but if there was something to even the BJ tug-of-war between Cogs and Trix at the moment, this would probably be it. Then again, it could very well be an enervation ring (has she forgotten about those yet?), which would be equally effective at disrupting the goddess.

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