Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

by Harmony Ltd. Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:03 pm

For the reasons I have exposed earlier in this thread, the NCR wouldn't be able to heavily mechanize / automatize its agriculture [1] ; but on the other hand, if it could get a robco production line up and running again and have it churn out Mr. Handy, Mr. Gutsy, Protectaponies and Sentinels, it would be more than happy to use them to ease its efforts to become an industrial power.

[1] : the reason why the NCR is able to produce so much food, so much in fact as to be able to give a large part of its production to the Enclave Remnants and use another large part to produce biofuel, is Earth Pony magic. If you remove ponies from the equation, the NCR only has naturally poor farmland to work with, which would require huge amount of fertilizer and other chemicals to be productive, chemicals which could only be produced on the necessary scale with... oil. Oil which the Alliance has a monopoly on the production of (or a diapoly if you count Canine Petroleum, whose existence or non-existence is still subject to debate). And given the core tenet of NCR policies is "never let yourself become dependent on foreign resources", the idea is a non-starter.

So, if the NCR could find a mean to industrialize which wouldn't require it to draw too much manpower from the fields, it would be only too happy to do so.

In the meantime, there's already a lot of "idle" population in the cities of Junction City, New Appleloosa and Manhattan, which are used to do public works like road construction, clearing ruins of the old world to make place for the new world's constructions, clearing Fillydelphia of all the usable scraps and salvageable machine tools, etc...

by cb5 Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:11 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:You and what army ?

There's a big difference between a standing army by a country or faction, and a private security force. Armies go out and do what the country or group says for them to do, like red eye's army works for red eye. Private security forces aren't standing armies and only defend a client so long as they're paid and only are on the battlefield so long as they're getting paid and only for so long as their contracts are still active or the client is still alive. Factions wouldn't need as large of a permanent standing army, rather just the caps to pay for a security detail. Private Security Companies are like short term soldiers that you only need around for short terms.

Functionally it'd be like combining the Gun Runners from Fallout New Vegas+Talon Company and how they operate on bounties+Megamart.

What I mean is that it wouldn't be a army in the traditional sense, rather a company you commission to hire out short term contractors to do a job for you.

It would go something like this,
"Hey raiders of (insert town here)!"
"YOU HAVE TEN SECONDS TO GIVE ME ALL OF YOUR CAPS!"
"Why rob from me for what I have on me when you can work for me for a hundred caps a hour each?"
"B.S.!"
"I have the paperwork right here, you all can take a look if you want"
*a little while later*
"So let me get this straight, you are JUST hiring us to defend the client and we get a ton of caps, get provided guns and all you ask is to not shoot traders or the merchant you want to put here?"
"Pretty much"
"Son, you got yourself a deal"

It's called the war economy. As wars heat up the amount of money and resources spent goes up. A Red Eye vs Unity vs Enclave war would drive the war economy to crazy heights and force all sides to bring in new forces to win. Think of it as real world war economy. The reason why we are pulling out of afghanistan is we don't have the money to continue and we don't have enough money to start a new war. The only times there are peace in the usa is after we win, lose or we run out of money and have to pull out.

It would go something like this Red Eye's, Unity's, and the Enclave forces go to war -> They begin paying in resources or caps to outside contractor company to defend Maripony/Fillydelphia/SPP towers/the citadel or fight for them -> They run out of caps -> "Tough luck, you're on your own now" "But we've ran out of soldiers to defend ourselves and will be forced to surrender without your forces" "Tough luck"

In war the winners are those who profit. The losers are everyone else. In the immortal words of Sean Connery, "Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and f*** the prom queen".

by Harmony Ltd. Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:23 pm

Interesting. Though I'm not sure this is the appropriate thread for it : "What would you do if [insert idea]" conversations would be more suited to the chat thread.

by cb5 Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:24 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Interesting. Though I'm not sure this is the appropriate thread for it : "What would you do if [insert idea]" conversations would be more suited to the chat thread.

Ah, okay.

by Harmony Ltd. Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:25 pm

Thanks for your understanding.

by Harmony Ltd. Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:53 pm

BY the way, if we imagine some RPG campaign, there's some potential fun to be had with the Everfree.

Between the possible adventures in the Everfree itself ("Mind making a few quick bucks by braving the dangers in the forest in order to bring us back some plants ?") ; who knows what exactly the scientists in the downed thunderhead the garrison is protecting are actually up to ?

It's remote, it's dangerous, it's mysterious.

That and the fact Red Eye might still actually be alive, deep underground the cathedral's ruins, dripping from a vat of I.M.P. Hell, for what anyone (doesn't) know, he could in fact have escaped and slithered away somewhere else in the Everfree. Not that he would actually be a menace (he's probably happy that Littlepip succeeded), but that could be an interesting encounter. Plus there's some potential for craziness.

"Hey Rose Eye ?!"
"Yes ?"
"Guess who I have met in the Everfree ?"
"Tell me... now..."
"Well, Red Eye."
"You... are lying."
"You always asked him to read you a story before going to bed. And he would call you Little Thorny."
"How do you..."
"I just told you."
"Take me to him !"
"Well, you see, as I was putting him to rest he told me he was disowning you. Actually, he never liked you. Or what you're doing."
"What. How. You. No."
"So... [beat] Wanna hang ?"
"I was going to ask you the same question..."

by O. Hinds Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:37 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Once the Bitters broke away from the GPE, with the clear intention to wipe anyone from the surface, she started making their life hard by manipulating the weather to be stormy where they were, but she didn't go all the way - Littlepip doesn't want to be a Goddess, and if she started taking such a direct role in the life of the Wasteland, well... No, she didn't want to go that way.

Quite the speech fodder for Rose Eye…
"Oh, you don't want to be seen as a goddess, miss Lightbringer? You'd rather just share your invulnerable weather-controlling throne with Celestia and look on as ponies fight, suffer, and die due to your inaction? Yes, it's quite clear that being out of your Stable for a month fully qualified you to be the Wasteland's hero; I mean, someone who had more experience might have made the mistake of actually trying to use their goddesslike power to help people, but of course that could have lead to them being praised too much."

cb5 wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:*shrug*

I just do what the f*ck I feel like doing, to be quite honest.
I can see why no popular writer does FoE side fanfics months after SPP.

Personally I think after a couple years Manehatten, Hoofington and such would allow for civilization to re-emerge. Sure a lot of it in manehatten would have been destroyed when littlepip entered the spp, but no one, even someone insane, would purposefully destroy a working factory considering it would be worth it's weight in gold. Even raiders saw how important it was, otherwise red eye wouldn't have gained such a following. Red Eye may have had a god complex, but he knew that in order for a country to be stable it needs trade and a means of sustaining itself. In that case he was rebuilding Manehatten. Hoofington has working factories in the core, if the eater of souls leaves then that's a entire city with a working infrastructure, factories, TANKS, and such, not to mention maintenance robots.

Mane-- Ah, I see Harmony Ltd.'s post. Regarding the Hoof, though, we still don't know the ending of PH; the place might end up depopulated, sealed, or a giant crater. (Annoyingly, there is one particular thing that I know that would have a pretty strong effect on the post-SR speculations here, but of course I have to act as if I don't know it. And I don't know the details of it, anyway.)

Harmony Ltd. wrote:BY the way, if we imagine some RPG campaign, there's some potential fun to be had with the Everfree.

Between the possible adventures in the Everfree itself ("Mind making a few quick bucks by braving the dangers in the forest in order to bring us back some plants ?") ; who knows what exactly the scientists in the downed thunderhead the garrison is protecting are actually up to ?

It's remote, it's dangerous, it's mysterious.

That and the fact Red Eye might still actually be alive, deep underground the cathedral's ruins, dripping from a vat of I.M.P. Hell, for what anyone (doesn't) know, he could in fact have escaped and slithered away somewhere else in the Everfree. Not that he would actually be a menace (he's probably happy that Littlepip succeeded), but that could be an interesting encounter. Plus there's some potential for craziness.

"Hey Rose Eye ?!"
"Yes ?"
"Guess who I have met in the Everfree ?"
"Tell me... now..."
"Well, Red Eye."
"You... are lying."
"You always asked him to read you a story before going to bed. And he would call you Little Thorny."
"How do you..."
"I just told you."
"Take me to him !"
"Well, you see, as I was putting him to rest he told me he was disowning you. Actually, he never liked you. Or what you're doing."
"What. How. You. No."
"So... [beat] Wanna hang ?"
"I was going to ask you the same question..."

:D

Mind, Red Rose probably usually got an apology instead of a story, Red Eye being a very busy stallion with a lot of other foals to attend to, but, well, I imagine that he did perhaps slightly favor the filly who got her cutie mark in "Red Eye is awesome". Though, depending on whether a certain idea that I'm toying with makes it in, he may also have been slightly creeped out by her after a particular conversation (due to not sharing certain traits with Sanguine… Rose Eye did, quick adaption or no, spend her early foalhood a raider, after all).

Also, I'm not sure that Rose Eye would actually know what to do with a killer of Red Eye (including LittlePip, the particular alicorns who went down there, and any hypothetical people who discover him somehow still alive and don't try to save him) if she caught them. I imagine her being paralyzed with extreme indecision, since there's only so much that can be done to a pony without them dying.

By the way, you didn't respond to my idea about Las Pegasus. I've produced this now, though (it was probably time I worked out how much the Miliozi had taken, anyway):

Spoiler:

The tire-track-patterned area is the land controlled by the Miliozi. The Wastelanders who were living there are free to leave, either to join the Alliance or NCR or flee to the uncontrolled lands, but if they stay they're basically slaves in all other respects, outside (and below) the command structure of the Miliozi universal stratocracy. The Miliozi are working on cranking up their population to fill the new land, but it's still sparsely populated and utilized. It being almost entirely desert doesn't help. It also gives the Alliance and Miliozi a longer border and more territory to defend (assuming that it gets developed) on the peninsula in the event of a conflict with the NCR. But it certainly is an impressively large blog on the map, isn't it? And the NCR isn't getting these big tracts of desert on the Miliozi's watch!
The small cloud(ish; I worked with what I had)-patterned patch is the Las Pegasus groundspace, Las Pegasus having entered the Alliance as an independent minor power (though less independent than most; due to its high strategic importance and the nature of its joining, there's quite a bit of meddling).

The northern borders of the Miliozi territory are the ocean and the river. The border with the state of Fillydelphia is mostly because that area was actively contested (which could result in complications and losses and would certainly result in the diversion of forces from elsewhere). The curving border south of that is just the extent of what the Miliozi thought that they could reasonably hold (there was, after all, no capital of this land to seize and demand control from).

by O. Hinds Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:56 pm

By the way, it must have been an interesting time for Wastelanders in the path of Miliozi expansion. You're minding your own business, maybe glancing nervously up at the sky a bit, but, hey, you're not done anything to draw the attention of the flapponies you've heard about on the radio... and then you hear a rumbling noise and see an approaching dust cloud. And then a couple of armor battalions with attendant air support roar past in full blitzkrieg mode.

by Harmony Ltd. Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:26 am

A few remarks concerning the miliozi expansion :

- Woah. Talk about encroachment.

- When did that happen ? Fillydelphia reclamation probably didn't happen before 7-9 SR, and before that the place would have been there for the taking for such an overwhelming force such as the Miliozi's.

- If the river in the north and the everfree in the east offered a clear natural border, around Fillydelphia there wasn't any clear line traced in the sand, or even any clearly established land claim. So one way or another there's going to be quite a lot of room for territorial disputes in the area.

- Such a display of expansionnism on what the NCR see as -its- turf (the Equestrian peninsula), and just right next to its borders, is going to put the NCR's leadership extremely ill-at-ease. And this will push it to preemptively claim everything south of its borders on the peninsula which hasn't been taken by the Miliozi yet. Such as the Moojave...

by O. Hinds Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:57 am

Harmony Ltd. wrote:A few remarks concerning the miliozi expansion :

- Woah. Talk about encroachment.

It's not set in stone yet or anything. I was trying to find a good balance.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:- When did that happen ? Fillydelphia reclamation probably didn't happen before 7-9 SR, and before that the place would have been there for the taking for such an overwhelming force such as the Miliozi's.

This basically happened within a week of the fall of the GPE. When it's confirmed that the Alliance no longer recognizes the GPE as extant, an announcement of the "Attention all Miliozi: execute Plan 9" went out (the possible fall of the GPE being a scenario that the Miliozi had been preparing for). Cue black startup exhaust rising from parking lots of armored vehicles as happy zebra soldiers rush to pile in, contrails in the sky above from Arrowheads supercruising to what it was decided the borders would be.

Hm… just how much had the NCR at that time made clear that it considered Fillydelphia claimed, even if it hadn't started reclaiming the city yet? If it was clear enough, we might explain the Miliozi keeping a distance from Fillydelphia as the anti-immediate-NCR-war faction in the Alliance prevailing in the relevant internal arguments.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:- If the river in the north and the everfree in the east offered a clear natural border, around Fillydelphia there wasn't any clear line traced in the sand, or even any clearly established land claim. So one way or another there's going to be quite a lot of room for territorial disputes in the area.

Yes… I can see there being some arguments about where, exactly, the border is. Perhaps a line of watchtowers or the like could be put up?

Harmony Ltd. wrote:- Such a display of expansionnism on what the NCR see as -its- turf (the Equestrian peninsula), and just right next to its borders, is going to put the NCR's leadership extremely ill-at-ease. And this will push it to preemptively claim everything south of its borders on the peninsula which hasn't been taken by the Miliozi yet. Such as the Moojave...

Well, at the time, the NCR had been in existence for less than a year. And, yeah, I can see it making them uneasy… but, on the other hoof, the Miliozi stopped. The NCR at the time was already struggling not to lose what would be known as the Bitter War, and they definitely weren't in any position to stop the Miliozi. Sure, the Miliozi couldn't hold the entire peninsula anyway, but there was nothing stopping them from wiping out the potential future competition. Except that they chose (somewhat reluctantly, admittedly) not to.

As for the NCR, in response, laying explicit claim to the area you mentioned (And, really, why stop there? Any reason not to stake a claim to the entire peninsula? A claim kept the Alliance away from Fillydelphia, after all, and the Alliance stayed off the peninsula for over a century just because the GPE declared it their groundspace.)… Sounds interesting. On the one hoof, the Alliance won't (directly…) try to take if, at least as long as the anti-war faction prevails. On the other hoof, while there's little drawback if the land is empty… I wonder how people living in the area will react to being told that the NCR has declared their land its?

By the way, the threat of a claim was the main reason why the Miliozi land grab was; they wanted to be sure that they got what they wanted before they had to stop.

by Harmony Ltd. Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:09 am

O. Hinds wrote:Hm… just how much had the NCR at that time made clear that it considered Fillydelphia claimed, even if it hadn't started reclaiming the city yet? If it was clear enough, we might explain the Miliozi keeping a distance from Fillydelphia as the anti-immediate-NCR-war faction in the Alliance prevailing in the relevant internal arguments.

At that time, Fillydelphia was still probably in a state of open warfare between all the various raider gangs & revolted slaves groups.

O. Hinds wrote:Yes… I can see there being some arguments about where, exactly, the border is. Perhaps a line of watchtowers or the like could be put up?

"You are now leaving the New Canterlot Republic"
"Karibu katika Muungano / Welcome to the Alliance"

As for claims... The NCR might pose a de principe claim on the whole of the Equestrian peninsula, but in practice it will only be able to enforce said claims in the territories that it has the means to influence (ie : those which are close enough). So it in fact will be pushed to only gradually expand, and to try to enforce its claims only when realistically possible : it won't realistically be able to claim Stalliongrad when there's the mountains in between and the only road goes through Enclave Remnants territories (the other road being around a thousand kilometers long from Junction City through Maripony).

by Harmony Ltd. Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:41 am

Lol... I'm imagining soldiers of the NCR and Miliozi fraternizing while on border duty.

Playing hoofball on the bridge, playing cards and dominos under the shade of the guardpost...

... Exchanging pictures of their homes and those who are waiting for them there...

... While still keeping at the back of their head that, tomorrow, maybe, they may have to kill each other...

by O. Hinds Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:47 am

I'm starting to run down for the night, so apologies if this is at all garbled.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:At that time, Fillydelphia was still probably in a state of open warfare between all the various raider gangs & revolted slaves groups.

Hm… Ah, here it is!

Kkat wrote:“It doesn’t take a tactical genius to realize that the Enclave is building up for a huge battle in Fillydelphia sometime very soon,” Gawdyna pointed out, “And I’d be willing to gamble by the timing that this little pow-wow isn’t unrelated. So here’s the deal: I’m offering the full support of my Talons and our resources, but in return I want total freedom to take over Red Eye’s resources in Fillydelphia.”

“Say what now?” Calamity asked as I fought to pick my jaw up off the floor.

“Cooperation would be appreciated,” Gawdyna said. “But in the very least, you and your allies don’t get in my way. An’ that includes the Applejack’s Rangers.”

“What… exactly are you planning?” I asked.

“Expand on what y’all ‘ave been pushin’ me t’ do,” Gawd claimed. “The area ‘round Shattered Hoof an’ Junction R-7 is becomin’ a civilization. We’re gainin’ a population, an orchard, a water talisman… everything we need t’ become one of the biggest thrivin’ communities in the wasteland.”

Well, yes. I had kinda been thinking along those lines, I had to admit.

“So, why stop there?” Gawd asked. “By takin’ over Red Eye’s factories, we could seriously have a shot at rebuildin’. A real New Equestria, not that poisoned Unity crap, with Shattered Hoof as its new Canterlot.”

Knew that that was somewhere. Now, presumably, Gawd and through her the NCR made it known that they considered Fillydelphia theirs and probably would have taken it already if not for the war with the GPE. That would probably be a sufficient claim.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Karibu katika Muungano

Hm, Gtrans says that that's Swahili. Why? Just so you know, I've got the Miliozi using Roaman Zebra (basically Latin but with a different writing system). Proper Roaman Zebra, too, not the warped version that the Remnant use when they even bother to speak something other than Pony. The sign would also probably say "Elusive Alliance" and be by an Alliance checkpoint in front of a Miliozi checkpoint (not so stringent as those for Masozi itself, but the Miliozi aren't exactly trying to encourage the tourism trade in their lands… Unlike Elusive in his lands, which is the primary reason for the Alliance checkpoint being in front of the Miliozi one :)). And… And this was intended as a brief throwaway joke that I'm tremendously overanlyzing, wasn't it? Eh, it provoked some interesting thoughts, anyway. :)

Harmony Ltd. wrote:As for claims... The NCR might pose a de principe claim on the whole of the Equestrian peninsula, but in practice it will only be able to enforce said claims in the territories that it has the means to influence (ie : those which are close enough). So it in fact will be pushed to only gradually expand, and to try to enforce its claims only when realistically possible : it won't realistically be able to claim Stalliongrad when there's the mountains in between and the only road goes through Enclave Remnants territories (the other road being around a thousand kilometers long from Junction City through Maripony).

Aye, but there is a lot of politics here. The Alliance doesn't have to respect the NCR's claims at this point if the Alliance is willing to go to war with the NCR. If Elusive decided to make war, the pro-war faction would become by a large amount dominant. All of the policymakers involved know this. However, for Elusive to even threaten the NCR with force, much less use it, he'd pretty much have to rely on the Miliozi; while the Elusive Company does have its own armed forces and Elusive personally controls/is the Alliance's Arrowheads, the Miliozi dominant the Alliance military so much that even all the other armed forces of the Alliance together don't come very close to them. Elusive threatening the NCR with force, then, is Elusive having to rely on the Miliozi to get things done, which is, in the Alliance's central power struggle, a win for the Miliozi and a loss for Elusive. Therefore, while he'll do it if he has to, he'll try to avoid it if at all possible. All of the policymakers involved know this as well, though it makes sense, I think, to say that the NCR's didn't really figure it out until they got spooked by the Miliozi advance (this handily explains why the Miliozi were able to make that advance; the NCR hadn't yet realized the need to officially claim the peninsula).
So, to summarize what we have so far: The NCR hasn't a hope, at this point, of militarily backing its claims up to the Alliance, but this doesn't matter because Elusive is trying to not bring military might into it. The upshot is that the Alliance won't directly and physically contest territorial claims made by the NCR so long as those claims are not too outrageous (it can claim to be the successor state to Equestria and thereby establish a some degree of claim to the peninsula, except possibly the Highlands (which the Alliance isn't keen to get into either), but trying to claim parts of Zebrica proper would be stepping a bit too far). Note, though, the two qualifiers and the word joining them; the Alliance may try to contest directly or physically. A contest that is direct but not physical would here consists of, basically, semi-legal arguments about whether a claim is or is not justified, and a contest that is physical but not direct would consists of definitely not providing advice and supplies to unfriendly-to-the-NCR locals. See, there's not much that Elusive can do against claims to unoccupied territory; being empty, it's not contested (unless the Alliance moves in, which, for reasons above, it won't), and there's therefore little good argument, if it's peninsular land, for why the NCR shouldn't have it. If the claim is to occupied land, though, the locals can contest the claim without the Alliance having to put hooves on the ground, and "We live here already and don't like you" is a pretty good argument to start with. Of course, if the NCR does absolutely nothing to an area except color it one shade on the map instead of another, most locals won't care or know (and if the people who are definitely not Alliance agents enter the area and speak against the NCR, the NCR can happen to send in an aid and goodwill mission). Once the NCR actually starts trying to claim an area, though…
Does that make sense to you? Sorry if I didn't explain it terribly well.

Also, I mentioned this above, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Highlands are both unclaimed by the NCR and more or less untouched by the Alliance. Maybe the things will have changed by the ending of PH, but I'm expecting the Highlanders to still be… enthusiastic about their independence.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Lol... I'm imagining soldiers of the NCR and Miliozi fraternizing while on border duty.

Playing hoofball on the bridge, playing cards and dominos under the shade of the guardpost...

... Exchanging pictures of their homes and those who are waiting for them there...

... While still keeping at the back of their head that, tomorrow, maybe, they may have to kill each other...

I doubt that things are anywhere near that tense most of the time, though of course it depends on how a variety of things have gone.

by Harmony Ltd. Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:00 am

Talking about border checkpoints...

I was thinking that for practical reasons, if it isn't too complicated or costly, a large part of the caravans of scraps between Fillydelphia and Junction City / Manehattan might pass through the western route (Filly - Old Appleloosa) instead of doing the great detour through Maripony.

Thoughts ?

by Harmony Ltd. Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:02 pm

How many people in the Wasteland don't even know how to read or write in your opinion ?

by Harmony Ltd. Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:54 pm

Also, what could be a possible plot point in a story...

A portion of the NCR's population would be reformed raiders (between being sent to reeducation / conscripted for a few years or exterminated by the Bitters... the choice was pretty quick for a large number of raiders). Raiders with unflattering cutie marks.

It could be that a number of these reformed raiders might have chosen to get their cutie marks erased. Even maybe chosen to get a "brand" of their choosing instead, to signify their will of renewal, of taking a new beginning.

How ironic would it be that a raider who worked for Red Eye's slavers for a while, then escaped Fillydelphia as things went ugly, erased his cutie mark before joining the NCR and getting drafted ; and as the Bitter War went on and he started to get hope for a better tomorrow for the first time in his life, choose to get branded with the Lightbringer's Mark ?

by Harmony Ltd. Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:56 pm

Unrelated, but a thing which came to my mind :

It's possible that, at some point, (al)chemical plants might spring-up in the state of Glyphmark.

by Harmony Ltd. Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:36 pm

O. Hinds wrote:Hm, Gtrans says that that's Swahili. Why?

Because Zebra Spike

by O. Hinds Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:37 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Talking about border checkpoints...

I was thinking that for practical reasons, if it isn't too complicated or costly, a large part of the caravans of scraps between Fillydelphia and Junction City / Manehattan might pass through the western route (Filly - Old Appleloosa) instead of doing the great detour through Maripony.

Thoughts ?

Hm. Well, to avoid the passthrough entirely, they could take the river and stay on the eastern side of it. If they wanted to stay on land on that route…
Well, that's at least one Miliozi customs check, which would be a bit arduous for traders, and the shortcut isn't an immense gain. On the other hoof, if this becomes a thing (possibly by the water route), I can see the Alliance establishing a closed train. Pile into a car at the Alliance checkpoint (not having to go through the Miliozi checkpoint), be sealed up to make sure that nothing gets in or out en route, and be unsealed and unloaded at the Alliance checkpoint on the other end. All for a fee, of course, and an Elusive Company lack of privacy, but it means that this is not only a shortcut but a shortcut a large part of which is done by speedy train. If the NCR allows it, actually, the route could be even faster… just seal the cars up in Fillydelphia and unseal them right in Junction City, running the train nonstop.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:How many people in the Wasteland don't even know how to read or write in your opinion ?

Ooh. Now that is an interesting question, and one that I hadn't thought of.
…I'm not sure. Probably more know how to read than how to write, though.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:lso, what could be a possible plot point in a story...

A portion of the NCR's population would be reformed raiders (between being sent to reeducation / conscripted for a few years or exterminated by the Bitters... the choice was pretty quick for a large number of raiders). Raiders with unflattering cutie marks.

It could be that a number of these reformed raiders might have chosen to get their cutie marks erased. Even maybe chosen to get a "brand" of their choosing instead, to signify their will of renewal, of taking a new beginning.

How ironic would it be that a raider who worked for Red Eye's slavers for a while, then escaped Fillydelphia as things went ugly, erased his cutie mark before joining the NCR and getting drafted ; and as the Bitter War went on and he started to get hope for a better tomorrow for the first time in his life, choose to get branded with the Lightbringer's Mark ?

Heh.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Unrelated, but a thing which came to my mind :

It's possible that, at some point, (al)chemical plants might spring-up in the state of Glyphmark.

It is possible. Certainly the Pax Roamana had plenty of them and the Alliance has its share.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:Hm, Gtrans says that that's Swahili. Why?
Because Zebra

…I still don't get it, sorry. I mean, yes, Legate Masozi had a Central background, but Roaman Zebra was the common and official tongue of the PR.

by Meleagridis Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:30 pm

I'm a couple of pages behind, now... Blurh.

Before I get to some replying, got two questions need answering: what reason would there be to send some folk in stasis out to sea? Why would someone invest all that time and effort to make a boat that could keep a small crew alive until the radiation years when they could put them in an underground bunker instead?

Question Two: How would Elusive City react to this, assuming the stasis ship's maintenance bot was under strict orders to steer the ship away from any and all foreign influences until contacted by the mainland or directed otherwise by the crew?

And a slightly smaller question: how would a lonely Mr. Handy keep itself from rusting all to heck?

O. Hinds wrote:
Meleagridis wrote:Probably with the Great Cows, yes. Certainly with the citizenry. The Guai, on the other end, would sooner support ex-Goddess fanatics than slavers.
Nice, though not as much as it could be. Do the Great Cows actually have an offensive military, though?

Though… Depending on how big a help it could be to have the Guai with the Banner against the NCR and how big a hindrance it would be to have the Guai against the Banner even if they're also against the NCR… Papa Guai (also, sorry; I think that earlier I got him confused with Papa Cow) might have enough leverage to get the Banner to abandon it. Particularly if enough of the rest of the Moojave is friendly to the Banner, which would help make up for the loss of cheap slave labor. She's already much less harsh as a slaver than Red Eye (My interpretation of the conditions in Fillydelphia is that they were never meant to be sustainable; they were intended as a temporary measure, sacrificing sustainability for speed, to bolster Red Eye's power to the point where he could reach apotheosis, have both a well-trained army and a large number of indoctrinated and educated ponies following him, and have new farmland in the Everfree. Then he'd have so much power (include a variety of ways to bring the GPE to heel) that extreme speed was no longer needed, and the slavery could be at least greatly scaled back and probably abolished entirely. Rose Eye, on the other hand, has access to no such long term plans, so she is trying to practice sustainable slavery (except for having no slaves born under the Banner, which sacrifices some sustainability for diplomatic gain and slave pacification).).

The Great Cows do have enough people to be frightening to wastelanders, but the term military is pushing it too far. Most of their force is on permanent guard duty at Cobstown, the rest are scavengers. Most of the capable fighters will get agitated by the lack of results and defect to the Guai, giving them all the strength in spite of the propaganda.

And the Banner offering an alliance with the Guai would be funny. Papa Guai split away from Papa Cow precisely because he had grown sick and tired of waiting and compromising. He set out to make the world black and white for him and his bovines, to try and wipe out anything from black to grey. Obviously that won't work. Even if he ignores the possibility of failure, going to war would be like admitting that letting the Banner settle in the first place was a mistake. It would probably leave the Cow Guai vulnerable. Even if the Great Cows decide not to press such an advantage, the 'wrong or right' mindset has won them no friends. All it would take is some communications between the settlements and they could probably cripple what is left of the Guai. And without the Guai, who will save the fools from themselves?

But the alternative? Compromise. Make nice with slavers. Stab yourself in the back. In times of indecision, the authority becomes the rage of the Cow Guai. Whatever incites the Guai at large will probably decide the issue. An incident with the Banner, the NCR, or a disaster back home and they will rally against the first thing to stir them. To mess with Westside, one would have to either pacify the masses or do their business very quietly.

O. Hinds wrote:
Meleagridis wrote:M:This is Mr. Moo-
P:And Miss Pegas!
So the competition, at least prior to a potential Banner-Guai abolitionist deal, would likely be somewhat less than friendly. On the plus side, that will likely spur Radio Moojave to try and drum up new content, likely from the locals (which I suspect, due to the cow pun in that last line, you've already thought of).

Meleagridis wrote:I went to try and research radio transmissions for a solution, and I found math. I'm still going to try reading it to find what I can understand. What's this about beaming the transmission? Line of sight shouldn't matter to something that can fly, so if that works...
Oh, good point! Of course, the cloud ceiling would set a… ceiling, but this would allow Stridula to have an effectively much longer range!

Y'know, Radio Moojave would need to open up at some point. Have more than two staff. Competition would certainly force some change (hurr change) and might see her spending more time at the broadcast station... or it would have her doing even more field time, trying to keep an edge with up-to-date newscasts that she is well-equipped to discover. If that meant more techies for the Encowmpment station... she'd need to convince the Guai to let in either Great Cow mechanics or ponies from Westside/the general wasteland. If they had to open their minds like that, they might be more receptive to a Banner deal. Of course, first it would have to be done...

I think I've got a progression for the radio station- starts by taking over Radio Free Someday after quieting the noise in Iaci Subitis' head. Operates from there for a time, with the minotaur running the station and changeling getting news. Broadcast from... dammit, I can't remember. I think someone had an idea about a wrecked ship earlier, that sound familiar? Dammit, I swear I had this a moment ago. But Iaci's less-than-ideal location breaks down, forcing the crew to find a new place to shack up- and the best option is full of Cow Guai.

And yes, that explanation was certainly good enough, thank ye kindly.

O.Hinds wrote:
Why would there be Pink Cloud in this stable?

My original thought was a backup saboteur that wasn't able to deliver his payload. With the world ending, he and all his possessions were hurried into the stablewhere the inhabitants would decide what to do with them.

The bomb was unidentified, and made a fine doorstop and conversation piece for 200 years.

O. Hinds wrote:
Meleagridis wrote:I completely forgot that the Banner already crossed the river. Hrm... Okay, give me a little time to think about post-SNR Cow Guai. Because they would actually jump to the defence of Westside if slavers were threatening them.
Ah, hm. Yeah, the Banner arrived in the area, got Westside's help closing the swing bridge across the river, and borrowed food from them until the farms around Thornbush were working. In exchange, they provided Westside with their military might and technical expertise.

I think the key might lie not in finding the path in post-SNR, but rather finding what the Moojave was like before the world realised it could change again. The Guai in the mountains, not yet aware of the tunnel(s?) that lead into Moover Line East and their new home. Radio Moojave would be replaced by Radio Free Someday until shortly before SNR. The Great Cows would have a little more presence until they settled in at Cobstown. Most of the current layout would then be moved closer to Sunshine and Rainbows...

Could you remind me how long after the Radboom all these Banner folk moved up into the Moover Line?

O. Hinds wrote:
Meleagridis wrote:Silence is sometimes achievable. Iaci Subitis had a pre-war zebra alert screaming in his head on on eternal loop until someling looking for broadcast equipment turned off the signal that was driving him mad. Well, she did now that Harm's post got me thinking.
Huh. Why did Stridula travel so far to search for spare parts for the Encowmpment? And he must have been pretty sensitive to pick it up at that range. Please explain, if you would.

Well, I tried. It's up there with the other radio bits. And I figured there might be a listening station in the mountains that Iaci Subitis is picking up, abandoned and just sending a warning. When it started to drive him all yellow wallpaper, he tried to leave. The loop just continued. It didn't stop until Stridula returned to tell him the signal had been shut off- long after the actual signal had been cut.

Afterthought, could a listening station broadcast a signal strong enough to host a radio show...

O.Hinds wrote:
Wait, so… I'm confused.

I'm sorry. I tried to word better. Third time's the charm?

O. Hinds wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:Since when do minotaurs suffer from voice-in-their-head-itis ?
…Ah. Meleagridis, now that I think back, I don't recall you including the bit about minotaurs in your in-this-thread Moojave briefing.

Eheh... no. In fact, there are a lot of things I've promised myself I would "get to later." While I enjoy all canon firing, I just don't have the stamina you guys do, hence replying to one post out of three pages. But in the interest of momentum, I'll see what I can dash out about Minotaurs- I have been bringing one up a lot.

Spoiler:

by Darkbright39 Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:40 pm

You know what would be cool? If someone made a timeline of both the main FOE fic and PH. Major events, characters, nice lines.

by Harmony Ltd. Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:12 am

O. Hinds wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:Hm, Gtrans says that that's Swahili. Why?
Because Zebra
…I still don't get it, sorry. I mean, yes, Legate Masozi had a Central background, but Roaman Zebra was the common and official tongue of the PR.

Zebra => animal from the african wilderness
Swahili => language of South Africa

by O. Hinds Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:04 am

Meleagridis wrote:Before I get to some replying, got two questions need answering: what reason would there be to send some folk in stasis out to sea? Why would someone invest all that time and effort to make a boat that could keep a small crew alive until the radiation years when they could put them in an underground bunker instead?

I think that you meant to say "clears" instead of "years". If not, I don't understand the question. If you did, though, well, the number one reason that occurs to me: a bunker isn't mobile. It's very sturdy, but, if something that could get through it is approaching , there's nothing that can be done. A boat is more vulnerable, but it can attempt to move away from dangers. If the boat is a submarine, even better; its defense approaches much closer to a bunker's, it retains its mobility, and it is potentially even more secret than a bunker (a bunker has to have an entrance, no matter how camouflaged it may be, but a submarine, if its existence is even known, has all the world's oceans to hide itself in).

Meleagridis wrote:Question Two: How would Elusive City react to this, assuming the stasis ship's maintenance bot was under strict orders to steer the ship away from any and all foreign influences until contacted by the mainland or directed otherwise by the crew?

…Wouldn't the ship/boat (Which is it? I'd advise you to make it a submarine, of course.) stay away from Elusive City? Actually, unless it was launched in the Marediterranean, would it be in the Mareditteranean at all, due to having to pass through the Strait of Gibhalter?

Meleagridis wrote:And a slightly smaller question: how would a lonely Mr. Handy keep itself from rusting all to heck?

…I'm now thinking of Kryten's spare parts shelves. It might be something like that, actually. Or possibly Mr. Handys just have anti-rust enchantments. I'm not sure.

Meleagridis wrote:The Great Cows do have enough people to be frightening to wastelanders, but the term military is pushing it too far. Most of their force is on permanent guard duty at Cobstown, the rest are scavengers. Most of the capable fighters will get agitated by the lack of results and defect to the Guai, giving them all the strength in spite of the propaganda.

Makes sense.

Meleagridis wrote:And the Banner offering an alliance with the Guai would be funny. Papa Guai split away from Papa Cow precisely because he had grown sick and tired of waiting and compromising. He set out to make the world black and white for him and his bovines, to try and wipe out anything from black to grey. Obviously that won't work. Even if he ignores the possibility of failure, going to war would be like admitting that letting the Banner settle in the first place was a mistake. It would probably leave the Cow Guai vulnerable. Even if the Great Cows decide not to press such an advantage, the 'wrong or right' mindset has won them no friends. All it would take is some communications between the settlements and they could probably cripple what is left of the Guai. And without the Guai, who will save the fools from themselves?

But the alternative? Compromise. Make nice with slavers. Stab yourself in the back. In times of indecision, the authority becomes the rage of the Cow Guai. Whatever incites the Guai at large will probably decide the issue. An incident with the Banner, the NCR, or a disaster back home and they will rally against the first thing to stir them. To mess with Westside, one would have to either pacify the masses or do their business very quietly.

I'm sorry, but I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. I also think that I may myself have been a bit unclear with my question/idea. Basically, it occurred to me that, if having the Guai on the Banner's side in a conflict with the NCR, or at least not having them against the Banner, seemed like enough of an advantage, the Banner ceasing to be slavers could be on the bargaining table. I imagine that getting that would be quite a coup for Papa Guai.

Meleagridis wrote:Y'know, Radio Moojave would need to open up at some point. Have more than two staff. Competition would certainly force some change (hurr change) and might see her spending more time at the broadcast station... or it would have her doing even more field time, trying to keep an edge with up-to-date newscasts that she is well-equipped to discover. If that meant more techies for the Encowmpment station... she'd need to convince the Guai to let in either Great Cow mechanics or ponies from Westside/the general wasteland. If they had to open their minds like that, they might be more receptive to a Banner deal. Of course, first it would have to be done...

I think I've got a progression for the radio station- starts by taking over Radio Free Someday after quieting the noise in Iaci Subitis' head. Operates from there for a time, with the minotaur running the station and changeling getting news. Broadcast from... dammit, I can't remember. I think someone had an idea about a wrecked ship earlier, that sound familiar? Dammit, I swear I had this a moment ago. But Iaci's less-than-ideal location breaks down, forcing the crew to find a new place to shack up- and the best option is full of Cow Guai.

Sounds good.

Meleagridis wrote:Broadcast from... dammit, I can't remember. I think someone had an idea about a wrecked ship earlier, that sound familiar?

That was me. :)
Perhaps you ought to note things like this down in the future?

O. Hinds wrote:...Maybe the signal was from a wrecked ship in the river, the transmitter drawing power from an emergency wind turbine?

I was rather puzzled about where a PR radio signal would be coming from in the Moojave, and then it occurred to me that perhaps a ship from the Final Assault had "sunk" in a shallow part of the river, effectively becoming a rusting metal island. Main power would be offline, of course, since, even if the machinery is working and unflooded, the ship's probably out of fuel, but I can see it having a small wind generator deployable in emergencies. That's not enough to put out tremendously strong signal, but Stridula and Iaci could probably rig something up (waterwheel?) to boost it a bit more. Yet another reason to move to the Encowmpment, though; having a full reactor behind the transmitters will be much better.

Meleagridis wrote:And yes, that explanation was certainly good enough, thank ye kindly.

Ah, good, and you're welcome.

Meleagridis wrote:My original thought was a backup saboteur that wasn't able to deliver his payload. With the world ending, he and all his possessions were hurried into the stablewhere the inhabitants would decide what to do with them.

The bomb was unidentified, and made a fine doorstop and conversation piece for 200 years.

Huh. Where was the bomb intended for?

Meleagridis wrote:I think the key might lie not in finding the path in post-SNR, but rather finding what the Moojave was like before the world realised it could change again. The Guai in the mountains, not yet aware of the tunnel(s?) that lead into Moover Line East and their new home. Radio Moojave would be replaced by Radio Free Someday until shortly before SNR. The Great Cows would have a little more presence until they settled in at Cobstown. Most of the current layout would then be moved closer to Sunshine and Rainbows...

Hm, good idea.

Meleagridis wrote:Could you remind me how long after the Radboom all these Banner folk moved up into the Moover Line?

After the radboom? Oh, the one in the Battle of Fillydelphia. Slightly odd way of marking the time, but it works here. I'm not entirely sure. The still-forming Banner would have first arrived in the Moojave less than a month after the Battle of Fillydelphia, Rose Eye (or possibly still Red Rose at this point) having Moover South in her sights from Red Eye's scouting reports. They make their "offer" to Westside… The repairs to the bridge take maybe another monthish… Clearing the raiders would be pretty easy, but then there're repairs, clearing land for farming… They'd probably be finished moving in by a year after the radboom, at least.

Meleagridis wrote:Well, I tried. It's up there with the other radio bits. And I figured there might be a listening station in the mountains that Iaci Subitis is picking up, abandoned and just sending a warning. When it started to drive him all yellow wallpaper, he tried to leave. The loop just continued. It didn't stop until Stridula returned to tell him the signal had been shut off- long after the actual signal had been cut.

Some interesting ideas there.

Meleagridis wrote:Afterthought, could a listening station broadcast a signal strong enough to host a radio show...

One in the mountains in enemy territory? Probably not.

Meleagridis wrote:I'm sorry. I tried to word better. Third time's the charm?

Well, I think that I'm less confused about that now.

Meleagridis wrote:as it is a quality that the less sane may forget to exhibit during their incoherent babbling.

This made me laugh. :D

Meleagridis wrote:The second option is a holy grail for the minotaur species: medicine. Medicine is pre-war headwear that minotaurs will pay any price to come upon. It is similar to a recollector designed specifically for a bovine head, criss-crossed with strange wiring. When donned, minotaurs find complete and painless silence as long as the medicine is atop their heads. The sole reason for the Moojave minotaur boom is the discovery of an entire cache of medicine at the school that houses Cobstown.

…Iiiiinteresting. I am quite curious regarding the history of these devices and why they were at Littlehorn (which you still haven't named but I am now assuming; you've not denied it either, after all).

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Zebra => animal from the african wilderness
Swahili => language of South Africa

…Um, yes, I'm aware of that. Still not getting why you used it on a sign meant to be from the Miliozi.

by Harmony Ltd. Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:06 am

O. Hinds wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:Zebra => animal from the african wilderness
Swahili => language of South Africa
…Um, yes, I'm aware of that. Still not getting why you used it on a sign meant to be from the Miliozi.

O. Hinds wrote:And… And this was intended as a brief throwaway joke that I'm tremendously overanlyzing, wasn't it?

Also because there isn't an option for latin in google translate.

by O. Hinds Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:16 am

Harmony Ltd. wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:Zebra => animal from the african wilderness
Swahili => language of South Africa
…Um, yes, I'm aware of that. Still not getting why you used it on a sign meant to be from the Miliozi.
O. Hinds wrote:And… And this was intended as a brief throwaway joke that I'm tremendously overanlyzing, wasn't it?

Ah.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Also because there isn't an option for latin in google translate.

Eh? No, there is. Not particularly good Latin, but, well, it's Gtrans.

by Harmony Ltd. Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:34 am

Well, I mean, not an option that wouldn't amount to stringing random latin words together and calling it a day.

by Harmony Ltd. Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:45 am

By the way, RE "reading and writing" :

Currently in France, a country of 65 millions inhabitants, it is estimated there is around 2.5 million who are functionally illiterate.

This is in a first world country in 2013 with one of the best educational system in the world.

I would expect the proportion of people who are functionally illiterate to be far higher in the wasteland.

by Harmony Ltd. Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:15 am

I doubt this could be used in the context of the current discussion, but I find the following is nonetheless interesting and worth sharing :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aphrodite

by Meleagridis Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:31 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Spoiler for probably only one person on this forum, and I'm not sure that they'll even read this:

Cool. So there are multiple hives that put themselves together under a single banner? If there are more than a few hives, then Chrysalis' neglect of her species talents might just have come from a personal preference to warmongering while the others played it safe. Is she still a mover and shaker in this re-imagining? And (maybe a little off-topic) what does sane Luna think about creating life in the throes of madness?

Harmony Ltd. wrote:- State of Everfree (which in practice is the second biggest state yet the least populated)

I interpreted the forest's vivid aggression as conscious malevolence. How many live away from the ruined Cathedral (as in not in the main settlement), and do they live there or simply hunt?

And then I read further and there is Thunderhead. Completely forgot about that. It is in the Everfree?

Urgh, Hinds is right. I should be taking notes...

That farmland thing is interesting. If I remember correctly, the forest has been expanding since even before the war, yes? So they could either hold a line at the edge of the woods and fight a war with nature forever, or strike the same deal that keeps the Cathedral safe.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:And then something like this happen :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHV0zs0kVGg

" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"We're so glad to see so many of you lovely people here tonight. And we would especially like to welcome all the representatives of Junction City's law enforcement community that have chosen to join us here in the Palace Hotel Ballroom at this time. We certainly hope you all enjoy the show. And remember, people, that no matter who you are and what you do to live, thrive and survive, there're still some things that makes us all the same. You. Me. Them. Everybody. Everybody. "

I would watch the hell out of this.

by Harmony Ltd. Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:50 pm

Meleagridis wrote:I interpreted the forest's vivid aggression as conscious malevolence. How many live away from the ruined Cathedral (as in not in the main settlement), and do they live there or simply hunt?

I'd say most everyone live in the settlement of Cathedral, but maybe something like 300-600 people (all races & types included) actually go into the Everfree on expeditions. Now the question would be to know : how are those expeditions organized ? Well, I'll have to think a bit about that.

Maybe some kind of "trapper's guild" taking in the charge some generic stuff everyone benefit from, and then the different groups / "companies" (in the "mercenary company" kind of sense) with each their own businesses, contracts, and things they specialize in...

Meleagridis wrote:And then I read further and there is Thunderhead. Completely forgot about that. It is in the Everfree?

The Thunderhead was downed during the Battle of the Cathedral IIRC, so I'd say it can't be more than 10 kilometers away from where Red Eye's Cathedral was, and most certainly in line of sight of the settlement of Cathedral.

Meleagridis wrote:I would watch the hell out of this.

Alas, I fear such a thing is not to be, my friend.

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