[Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

O. Hinds wrote:

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Also, with the torpedoes that the ship would carry, it would be at least nominally competent to try its hands at anti-submarine warfare ; at least if can coordinate its sonars and the torpedoes, and if the torpedoes are able to home on a moving target (on-board sonar guidance system ?).

I don't think that coordination would be a problem; Elusive being himself a computer network, the Alliance is good at computer networking, and there are already plenty of robots swimming around under Elusive City.

The problem isn't computing so much as it to be able to actually communicate with the torpedo to exchanges informations with it as it is swimming toward its target. You can use a wire, but that's far from being an ideal solution (think about what this mean in practice), and the cable may break. And I don't think short of actual magic there's any practical solution to communicate with the torpedo other than a wire : electromagnetic waves have a really hard time propagating in liquid water, and using sonar / soundwaves paint you as a big target for anyone with a passive sonar.

Note that, as far I know, IRL a large number of torpedoes in fact use an on-board passive or active sonar to home in on their target.

O. Hinds wrote:

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Maybe the ship would also have a few depth charges as a standard load, just in case ? Would the rotodaen be able to drop a depth charge above the area were it is suspected a submarine is ?

I don't see why not, though there is of course a limit to how much it could carry at any one time.  Nice idea.

I was thinking depth charges of 500-1000 kilogram. So the rotodaen would be able to carry only one, maybe two ; and the ship would probably have less than twenty of them in stock - they don't expect to have to fight submarines.

Sea monsters, though...

Harmony wrote:The problem isn't computing so much as it to be able to actually communicate with the torpedo to exchanges informations with it as it is swimming toward its target. You can use a wire, but that's far from being an ideal solution (think about what this mean in practice), and the cable may break. And I don't think short of actual magic there's any practical solution to communicate with the torpedo other than a wire : electromagnetic waves have a really hard time propagating in liquid water, and using sonar / soundwaves paint you as a big target for anyone with a passive sonar.

Note that, as far I know, IRL a large number of torpedoes in fact use an on-board passive or active sonar to home in on their target.

Ah, good point; I'd forgotten to consider that an enemy with its own sonar could use the network nodes as great big targets (sorry; it was a bit late when I wrote that).  So autonomous smart torpedoes, then.  Hm… Or what about dumb but supercavitating ones?  Torpedo is ejected on a wire, torpedo orients itself to point towards the target, torpedo fires and wire breaks, but torpedo no longer needs to aim due to how quickly the distance to the target is closed?  What do you think?

Random idea: perhaps Stockhast was the primary northern base for Equestria's brown water forces.

Just as a quick note before I go to sleep :

I would tend to imagine that super-cavitating torpedoes would take significantly more resources to build, maintain and store (in a ship's armory, what with the solid-fueled rocket motor) than a more conventional torpedo combining wire- and passive-sonar-homing :

- The wire would be something like ~5-8 kilometers long ;
- and farther than that, the cable automatically separate and the onboard sonar (passive or active) / targeting computer system take the relay.


Of course, it would be easier to use wire if the ship has dedicated torpedo tubes. Otherwise it might get a bit messy if they are thrown from the deck - not at all impossible or even difficult, just messy.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Just as a quick note before I go to sleep :

I would tend to imagine that super-cavitating torpedoes would take significantly more resources to build, maintain and store (in a ship's armory, what with the solid-fueled rocket motor) than a more conventional torpedo combining wire- and passive-sonar-homing :

- The wire would be something like ~5-8 kilometers long ;
- and farther than that, the cable automatically separate and the onboard sonar (passive or active) / targeting computer system take the relay.


Of course, it would be easier to use wire if the ship has dedicated torpedo tubes. Otherwise it might get a bit messy if they are thrown from the deck - not at all impossible or even difficult, just messy.

Really? I was thinking that the main advantage of SCURs (Super-Cavitating Underwater Rockets) here was that they'd be much cheaper. No guidance system, no complex motor, etc., just a warhead, a solid rocket booster, and a fancy nosecone. Point and shoot. Of course, I could be wrong.

Ah... Though you do make a point about all the solid rocket fuel that would end up in the armory as a result. Could be a safety hazard...

Remember the Koursk incident. IIRC, if the sub blew up it was that they were testing a supercavitating torpedo and it went up in their face.

Yeah... I'm still thinking that they'd be quite effective weapons... but I'm now also thinking that making SCURs the standard sure would result in a lot of explosives crammed down there... Too much of that and ships exploding when damaged ceases to be just a movie special effect. So conventional torpedos, then, and SCURs or SCTs for special purposes (maybe only one or two as part of the usual armament, if any).

Idea proposal:
To make a long story short, the griffin who would come to be known as Erika the Red was born with scarlet feathers and undeveloped wings.  While still young, she was cast out of her family and found herself alone near the ruins of Stockhast.  She located the least intestines-as-bunting crazy raider band in the area, defeated their current leader, took over, and in the following decades proceeded to forge them into a maritime warrior culture and to absorb, annihilate, or enthrall every other raider group in the area.  By Day of Sunshine and Rainbows, the Stockings, as they'd come to be known, controlled what was left of Stockhast and collected tribute from all the waterways from Fancee to Hoofington and upriver past St. Paulomino.  They weren't exactly liked, but, on the other hoof, as long as you paid them to go away, they wouldn't bother you and would keep out seafaring competition besides.  They also acted as traders in the area, and the situation, while not exactly ideal, was stable and relatively prosperous.

Now, thirty years on, Erika is in her late eighties and, while fit for her age, not expected to last too terribly much longer, and she has no clear successor.  Unless she names one, and possibly not even then, when she dies, the most powerful remaining Stockings (really not sure about that name, but it's the best that I can think of) will all attempting to take power over all.  This could either work through the semi-democratic (based on popular support) system that Erika put in, work through violence (causing losses and increasing internal divisions), or result in the Stockings splintering into two or more groups.  Meanwhile, the thralls are wanting freedom, the tribute-payers are trying to find ways to get away with saying "no" (inspired by the successful Applejack's Rangers-backed refusal in Trottingham), and the NCR flexes its muscles to the south and just a bit further up the river.

Just a simple little thing that I knocked together just now.

Another idea: For a while, at least, until the NCR gets things really up and running, we might see wealthy NCR citizens traveling to the Alliance for medical care.  The Alliance provides a pretty good level of basic healthcare to its citizens, and those who can pay or gain a favor from a personage of power can get much better stuff, up to high-grade cybernetic replacements for damaged organs and the like.  And if wealthy and powerful members of the NCR would like to benefit from this, well, I'm sure that they could find something to trade...

On the bright side for the Followers and for NCR citizens who aren't in favor of being sold out to the Alliance so that their drunken councilor can get a new liver (though, to be fair, it could also be something like "so that their councilor's young daughter can get her failing heart replaced"), this will likely act as encouragement for the NCR to develop its own healthcare system.  Most of what makes the Alliance better at it is just that they've got more infrastructure (industrial and bureaucratic) behind them, and there's no reason why the NCR can't duplicate, or potentially even better, that.  Stuff like the cybernetics would be trickier, though; since we don't know how or if Silver Stripe will come out of PH, the only knowledge of how to build cybernetics that we know the NCR has comes from Red Eye's operations.  I can imagine there being debates in the NCR not too unlike those about using the results of the inhumane experiments of the Nazis. Unless of course Silver Stripe ends up alive and happily working with the NCR, in which case they'd just use her.

Depends on how easy it is to travel between the two. I guess they could just pass the border south of New Appleloosa and take an Alliance airplane in Las Pegasus to Elusive City ?

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Depends on how easy it is to travel between the two. I guess they could just pass the border south of New Appleloosa and take an Alliance airplane in Las Pegasus to Elusive City ?

Aye, though I'm not sure if the runway would be built under Las Pegasus.  I guess that it's a pretty central location.  The Miliozi would also prefer not to have outsiders going through Masozi too much. Alternatively, if the NCR allows the Alliance to set up any operations in Manehattan, it might be possible to get a direct flight.  Alliance airplanes can fly nonstop from Las Pegasus or Manehattan to Elusive City, while rotodaens can do it with a refueling stop in Gibhalter. The main barrier to travel is whether or not the NCR allows it.

Also, any thoughts on the Stockings?

No negative comment to make on the Stockings. The idea would need to be a bit more developed.

I'm still mentally recovering from the exams and winding down from the stress, so I fear I'm not in the best frame of mind to answer right now.

Ah, righto.  I was wondering why you'd been so quiet of late.  Have a nice recovery!

This is not, strictly speaking, related to the setting as we are conceiving it, but I thought this might interest you nonetheless :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgFIhomusc8

Aye, that was interesting; thank you.

By the way, I imagine that something like this would be rather a culture shock for most Wastelanders.

I've found a nice documentary on the Fairey Rotodyne:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyxj8soYqwQ

I have plans to finally read all 27 pages tomorrow and post my manifesto response.


But before that I had a question, what was the order time and time of year of the end of Equestria?

I believe the initial attack was on Cloudsdale followed by attacks on Canterlot, Manehattan, Fillydelphia and Happy Valley. But what was the order of the attacks after Cloudsdale? How long from Cloudsdale going silent to the general attacks on places like Ponyville and other minor cities?

Also ever mentioned, what time of year was it. Or even what time of day?

I don't know if it's an indicator of the time of year or of just how fucked up everything had been, but a few hours to a few weeks after the bombs fells the whole country was covered in radioactive snow.

Hey Hinds, you should have a look at this => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_cruiser_Vittorio_Veneto_(550)

Cptadder wrote:Or even what time of day?

I'm not sure about the rest, but late morning.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Hey Hinds, you should have a look at this => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_cruiser_Vittorio_Veneto_(550)

Interesting. I'm afraid that I can't think of any further commentary at the moment, though.

O. Hinds wrote:

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Hey Hinds, you should have a look at this => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_cruiser_Vittorio_Veneto_(550)

Interesting.  I'm afraid that I can't think of any further commentary at the moment, though.

Well, let me elaborate my thoughts :

- It serves as an helicopter carrier, and the Alliance make a heavy use of VTOL.
- It has a diversified armament and doesn't completely rely on its "carrier air wing" to do all the job : it can fight on its own. This is especially interesting in the context of the Alliance, where for reasons of relatively limited resources military planners would probably want ships to have some degree of versatility and flexibility (just think back to the corvette design I proposed).
- At 7,500 tons un-fuelled and unarmed, it's not a too unreasonable amount of Steel that the Alliance would have to produce on a per unit basis for ships like these.
- With a top speed of 30 knots (55 KpH), it's not a sitting duck in combat situation.


Of course, it's not a be all end all kind of deal. That ship was made primarily for anti-submarine warfare, and it shows : it has 6 torpedo launching tubes, and no purpose-built armament against surface vessels (its anti-aircraft missiles can serve dual purpose against ships, but in a very limited fashion). If you wanted to pit it alone against a fleet of surface vessels, you'd have to rely on your torpedoes and on-board fleet of helicopters.

Strike that it has eight of these babies : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76/62mm_Allargato

Anyway, that ship could offer a basis on which to design the Alliance's VTOL-carrier(s).

Harmony Ltd. wrote:

O. Hinds wrote:

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Hey Hinds, you should have a look at this => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_cruiser_Vittorio_Veneto_(550)

Interesting.  I'm afraid that I can't think of any further commentary at the moment, though.

Well, let me elaborate my thoughts :

- It serves as an helicopter carrier, and the Alliance make a heavy use of VTOL.
- It has a diversified armament and doesn't completely rely on its "carrier air wing" to do all the job : it can fight on its own. This is especially interesting in the context of the Alliance, where for reasons of relatively limited resources military planners would probably want ships to have some degree of versatility and flexibility (just think back to the corvette design I proposed).
- At 7,500 tons un-fuelled and unarmed, it's not a too unreasonable amount of Steel that the Alliance would have to produce on a per unit basis for ships like these.
- With a top speed of 30 knots (55 KpH), it's not a sitting duck in combat situation.


Of course, it's not a be all end all kind of deal. That ship was made primarily for anti-submarine warfare, and it shows : it has 6 torpedo launching tubes, and no purpose-built armament against surface vessels (its anti-aircraft missiles can serve dual purpose against ships, but in a very limited fashion). If you wanted to pit it alone against a fleet of surface vessels, you'd have to rely on your torpedoes and on-board fleet of helicopters.

Strike that it has eight of these babies : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76/62mm_Allargato

Anyway, that ship could offer a basis on which to design the Alliance's VTOL-carrier(s).

Ah, yes, nice. Sorry; I'm a bit tired and busy.

I wonder when the Alliance started/starts building full carriers (of that sort)...

O. Hinds wrote:I wonder when the Alliance started/starts building full carriers (of that sort)...

Well, it would have started "needing" carriers once it started expanding along the coasts of the Marediterranean, to support amphibious expeditionary units during their operations, by offering a rear base for the aircrafts and supporting landings operations with its guns to shell possible coastal defenses.

So depending on how recently Gibhalter joined, around that time ?


By the way, has the Alliance already reached / reclaimed Old Roam ?

Harmony Ltd. wrote:

O. Hinds wrote:I wonder when the Alliance started/starts building full carriers (of that sort)...

Well, it would have started "needing" carriers once it started expanding along the coasts of the Marediterranean, to support amphibious expeditionary units during their operations, by offering a rear base for the aircrafts and supporting landings operations with its guns to shell possible coastal defenses.

So depending on how recently Gibhalter joined, around that time ?

Ah, point. And Gibhalter is one of the earliest members. After all, all water traffic between Elusive City and Masozi has to pass through the Principality's territory.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:By the way, has the Alliance already reached / reclaimed Old Roam ?

My current headcanon is that there's nothing to reclaim, Equestrian megaspells having wiped the city off the face of the planet.

Where are the Alliance's naval works ? Are they concentrated in Elusive, or are there naval yards in Elusive, Gibhalter and Masozi ?

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Where are the Alliance's naval works ? Are they concentrated in Elusive, or are there naval yards in Elusive, Gibhalter and Masozi ?

The oldest and, I think, still biggest are in Masozi. I don't think that Gibhalter has shipyard facilities, and Elusive City, if it has any, doesn't have very extensive ones.

Depending on how important an harbor Gibhalter was before / during the war, it would seem logical for it to have shipyards if only just to repair the ships using the harbor.

Even the shittiest fishing harbor has the kind of hardware it takes to repair to some extent the ships using it.

This strip and the blogpost below might be relevant, story-wise, to the fixation the Miliozi have with mechanized warfare.

The weapon system in question => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_Amphibious_Vehicle