Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by Icy Shake Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:11 pm

scootayay wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
scootayay wrote:All the spaces between sentences are duplicated.
That is not a mistake. That is the standard that Somber (and thus PH) and I use.
Ah, alright. Probably should have come to that realization myself after reading PH for so long, but I guess I just never really paid attention to that. Thanks for the clarification.

More specifically, it's double spaces here, and single spaces with Broken Accords (the subject's come up here, I think), because double spaces were breaking formatting for mobile on FimFiction. So if you've heard anything about moving to single spaces, that was the context.

scootayay wrote:Blackjack still considers Rampage as a friend. Whether Rampage does the same is the question.
Rampage only turned on Blackjack because she was standing in the way of her achieving the one thing that matters to her. Death.

To get past her, they will either have to find another way for Rampage to die, or somehow make her want to live. Of course they also could just find a way to stall her until Horizons is stopped, but I don't think that's what's going to happen.

I think that Rampage still considers her a friend, even if she's cooled a bit towards her (or forced herself to do so). The problem is, I think, one we've seen before: that just isn't enough. Kind of like how P-21 and the rest—even Glory—weren't enough for Blackjack to keep on living after gassing Stable 99, Rampage's few people she cares about aren't enough for her, especially given that someday they will be gone. What's changed is that now she thinks she has a way out, and even if it means siding against the ones she cares about (and even potentially helping bring about what she feared—that there would be no one left), she'll do anything to take it.

O. Hinds wrote:It isn't. I was confused by this too, but everyone else on the team thought that the wording was clear. The cut is lateral, but there's apparently something about the geometry of the blade and strike vs. the limb and exactly how much resistance the suit offers that prevented the blade from just stabbing through the cut here.

Well, I'm glad I wasn't the only one, I guess.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:That's really thick fabric.
It isn't. I was confused by this too, but everyone else on the team thought that the wording was clear. The cut is lateral, but there's apparently something about the geometry of the blade and strike vs. the limb and exactly how much resistance the suit offers that prevented the blade from just stabbing through the cut here.
I thought it was simply because the suite is a Soul Jar and thus -almost- invincible?

I've kind of been working on the assumption that those were starmetal swords, and thus able to destroy soul jars pretty easily. I could be off about that, but given all those swords have been doing I think it's the most likely case.

by Harmony Ltd. Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:41 pm

Icy Shake wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:That's really thick fabric.
It isn't. I was confused by this too, but everyone else on the team thought that the wording was clear. The cut is lateral, but there's apparently something about the geometry of the blade and strike vs. the limb and exactly how much resistance the suit offers that prevented the blade from just stabbing through the cut here.
I thought it was simply because the suite is a Soul Jar and thus -almost- invincible?
I've kind of been working on the assumption that those were starmetal swords, and thus able to destroy soul jars pretty easily. I could be off about that, but given all those swords have been doing I think it's the most likely case.

Yeah, my take was that, was it any other sword, it wouldn't have sliced anything, and any other suit of armor it would have been sliced like hot butter.

Basically, unmovable object meets unstoppable force.

by O. Hinds Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:22 pm

Icy Shake wrote:More specifically, it's double spaces here, and single spaces with Broken Accords (the subject's come up here, I think), because double spaces were breaking formatting for mobile on FimFiction. So if you've heard anything about moving to single spaces, that was the context.

Yes... And the FIMFiction port of PH will have to have single spaces too, for the same reason. Neither I nor, last I heard, Somber are particularly happy about that. And the whole thing about FIMFiction apparently not importing italics...
The Gdocs version will continue to be the official primary version, anyway.

by SilentCarto Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:26 am

Chapter 72 Commentary:

Editing:

Not a whole lot to say at this juncture. Everything is catching fire and I'm just sitting back with some popcorn to watch it burn.

by O. Hinds Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:48 am

@SilentCarto:
Ah, thank you.

by Caoimhe Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:17 pm

Somber wrote:Glory felt that Blackjack had far more ties with P-21 than she had with Glory. That they had been drifting apart, and that Blackjack was better with him than her. Glory was not able to simply embrace the polyamory that P-21 could, having come from a nuclear family with a different set of sexual norms. She knew that their relationship was fundamentally flawed, and so tried to take herself out of it.

Also, I'm really glad the chapter seemed to work. Next one will focus on Blackjack much more, so hopefully it won't be so bad.

First off, excellent as always. I'm glad that even with the dataloss you were able to pull through.

Second, because I'm one of those people who can't enjoy anything without analyzing themes and deeper meaning... your comment poses this question: is PH trying to say something about polyamory at all through BJ and P-21 or sexuality in general (possibly with regards to the latest reveal about Crumpets)? In the contemporary wasteland world of PH specifically, almost every character has more or less guilt free sex and there is little to be said for stable relationships or pairings. In fact, considering how BJ cheating on Glory went, the narrative almost drives the point that monogamy and sexual preference is a bad thing. The end result of conflict showing that polyamory and bisexuality the only truly comfortable way to live,with adhering to a particular sexual orientation and monogamy almost being the root cause of relationship problems. I could be full of shit but there's times in the narrative where this seems very evident. Partly it came across as offensive for selfish reasons because I'm a lesbian and am adverse to the "turning" rhetoric but I know that's not your intent.

Anyway, we can see these "problems" evidently in Glory's parents, Goldenblood/Fluts, Sanguine (especially) and to an extent in Twilight's secret identity. With this in mind, PH seems to advocate for a "free love" society as a solution to war, almost akin to an extension of the 60s hippie lifestyle and Vietnam protests. Does this make Rampage Charles Manson?

Would this make Boo a standin for the reader, a blank slate molded by the ideas put forth in the narrative and an ideal form for the ideas expressed to evolve into? Is Blackjack's reluctance to do anything sexual to Boo meant as a message to not force these ideals onto the reader (ie, the concept of "jailhouse gay" being a flawed control system and systemic environmental conditioning being a method of constructive brainwashing)? Does her new sentience awakening at approximately the same time as P-21 and Blackjack finding their feelings for each other signaling what the reader should find as the true source of happiness?

Should I be out drinking instead of thinking about this stuff since it's NYE? I think I'll hold my thoughts about how Cogs works into this for later.

by O. Hinds Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:14 pm

Your commentary certainly is interesting sometimes, Caoimhe. :)

by Guest Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:27 pm

@Caoimhe You deserve an upvote, very interesting read.

Though (full diclosure I haven't read the chapter yet) I don't think Crumpets is a part of a deeper theme. Over on the FOE Reddit there's a thread where Somber says paraphrasing here that a lot of the sex in PH is a result of his own... Frustrations? This is closer to what he wrote "If I had a boyfriend, girlfriend, fleshlight there'd be 50% less sex in PH" Good chance he's joking but I'm going with the assumption he's not. Somber visits, if he wants to clarify whether it was or was not it's up to him. Hard to tell with text.

That with Crumpets seems like it's less part of a theme and more writing conveniance so Somber can write the scenes he wants. Not that there isn't some sexual theme in PH, or that your analysis is inaccurate, just that this particular decision doesn't seem to be tied to it in my ignorant opinion.

by Icy Shake Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:33 pm

I may have more to say on Caiomhe's general subject later, but @Last, while I haven't seen that Reddit, there was also this (though it says nothing about its relation to the content of PH):

Chapter 66 Author's Note wrote:Anyway, hope the story was decent.... and I really need to get a girlfriend... boyfriend... lyra plushie... something! ::hurries off in shame::

by Guest Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:37 pm

It's very similar to that, yes. But the thread on Reddit is an image one titled something like "Somber's writing process" first post is from his account and is the one I'm referencing.

by O. Hinds Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:43 pm

Well, because some people complained (horrors!) about the old version of a particular bit of 72, we've swapped it out for something else. Both may be found below.
To clarify, I support Somber in this and think that the new version is fine, but I'm quite annoyed that people tried to get and succeeded in getting him to change a previous version that was also fine just because they didn't like the content.

Old Text:

New Text:

by Guest Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:48 pm

Here's the link. I encourage you all to read it. There's an entertaining scene between Somber and BJ in there for you guys who have no interest in verifying. Like I said though he could simply be joking, but it's not the way I interpreted it. It would hardly be the first case of misinterpreting text on the internet.

by Harmony Ltd. Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:50 pm

Now if -people- complain that there aren't enough cunt jokes in PH, then that's definitely more their problem than PH's.

by Caoimhe Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:15 pm

There's a lot of unintentionally(?) obvious Freudian psychosexual symbolism in PH that can represent an expression of sexual frustration which is very common in fiction and interesting to think about. Part of my anticipation for the end is to inject some truly awful fun-ruining analysis to the thing as a whole, especially regarding the neuroses of Blackjack. While essentially basic, she's a great character to psychoanalyze.

Crap I forgot to include how the percepitron, in addition to being a well used narrative device, exacerbates the free love idea. Oh fooey, another time.

by Downloaded Skill Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:22 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Now if -people- complain that there aren't enough cunt jokes in PH, then that's definitely more their problem than PH's.

A fair amount of those jokes were cuntcentrated in this latest chapter though.

by Caoimhe Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:23 pm

More like cuntcatenated.

by Icy Shake Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:07 am

Editing:
Stop thinking about Rivet’s hoochie!”
"Rivets's"

“La la la, not thinking about Rivet’s tangy hoochie...”
"Rivets's"

“You’re evil, daddy,” Scotch Tape said with a pout.
"daddy" should be capitalized

I miss the it's in my eye! bit. (We need a decent "sad" smiley here.) I feel like the new version lacks the punch of the old while belaboring a relatively weak joke for a long time. But whatever. I also don't get why the old one had particularly objectionable content.

@Caiomhe: I'd be very interested in hearing a more fleshed-out exposition of your thoughts on these subjects. For now, I'll just say that I've taken it slightly differently, but with the caveat that it looks more free-love than it otherwise would because the major focal point is Blackjack.

The big thing that I've seen isn't so much a pushing of any particular system, but more the idea that you need to make sure you're compatible in various ways with the people you enter any relationship with. So you're probably going to have difficulties if you're a strong believer in monogamy and want to date a free-lover. And if the viewpoint were from Glory instead of Blackjack, the writing would (I think) probably come out in a way that made Blackjack's attitudes and actions seem more a problem, and Glory's less. Moving from sex specifically, I'm glad you brought up Dawn/Sky Striker, because the way I see that is pretty divorced from any kind of sex-related problem, but is instead built upon how Dawn's vocation conflicted with having a stable, safe family life and the necessities of politics in Thunderhead. (Here, it might be something along the lines of if you want a private family life, don't marry a politician or don't marry someone in the military if you don't want to be an army spouse and have a military family (and the converse in each case).) I don't have any specific thoughts on Sanguine, but I think that the Twilight situation is a little bit more generalized: that rigid (especially uniform) expectations of individuals that they don't really have a say in (putting them in boxes, or, I think, taking a more direct sexual orientation/sexual or romantic relationship structure bent, saying that everyone needs to be straight/monogamous/whatever is mostly going to make people unhappy by either not doing what they're inclined to or doing it in secret) is going to end up poorly for them, and could hurt some bystanders along the way. However, I can't come up with anything for Goldenblood/Flutters other than Fluttershy being overly brittle and unreasonably jealous, given what we know she actually knew. If she knew the full content of his dream and that it was both lucid and one in which real-Luna was a participant, then I think it just sort of falls back to a run-of-the-mill infidelity breakup, and how breakups are often shitty.

All that said, I think it's pretty clear that the PH position is that free love should be an available option for those so inclined (and it would be nice if it were the consensus position, as much drama and jealousy and heartache could be avoided). The key point is getting this stuff figured out. One thing I think PH does nicely is show how a romantic relationship can be mostly good-ish (yeah, BJ/Glory had other problems, but ones that I'd think of as making me see an unhealthy relationship just because each had their own unresolved issues rather than with the relationship itself, plus the thing where Blackjack was overprotective of Glory) and between people in love with each other, but just not work out because of sex or other relationships.

by O. Hinds Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:25 am

Icy Shake wrote:Editing:
Stop thinking about Rivet’s hoochie!”
"Rivets's"

“La la la, not thinking about Rivet’s tangy hoochie...”
"Rivets's"

“You’re evil, daddy,” Scotch Tape said with a pout.
"daddy" should be capitalized

...Argh. Always the typos, they get through... Thanks!

Icy Shake wrote:I miss the it's in my eye! bit. (We need a decent "sad" smiley here.) I feel like the new version lacks the punch of the old while belaboring a relatively weak joke for a long time. But whatever. I also don't get why the old one had particularly objectionable content.

I don't know either.

by Vixie Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:34 am

I miss the "My eye!" line, but eh. I quite like hearing about what Rivets's hoochie tastes like.

It really threw me for a loop because I'd just reached that bit, then had to stop reading and when I navigated back to the page I was confused when I tried to find that line to pick up again from!

So... Is the lengthy technical explaination about tank mechanics and photon torpedoes going here?

by Harmony Ltd. Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:35 am

I thought "photon torpedoes" was just a fancy word for "antimatter / clean thermonuclear warhead" (1), in order to avoid shocking the audience of your pacifistic space-utopia sci-fi series by implying that the series' good guys are actually being trigger happy with nuclear weapons, at a time were people were actively fearing a nuclear apocalypse in real life?

(1): You know, because in space, lacking atmosphere to create a blast effect, a nuclear explosion would be all about the intense burst of energy produced as photons in order to carry energy to the target.

by SilentCarto Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:37 pm

Icy Shake wrote:Scotch Tape bumped against my back. “Blackjack,” she said in delicate tones. “I’m sorry…”
“She’s not dead,” I contradicted, not taking my eyes off the stars.

Denial is the best first response. And has certainly never hurt Blackjack or the people around her before.

Well, it's also the first stage of grief.

Icy Shake wrote:It’s not warfare so much as crude attrition.

Umm . . . that's a kind of warfare, and one that was used extensively in Hoofington two hundred years ago.

I think this comment says as much about Storm Chaser as Amadi.

Icy Shake wrote:He might be performing some kind of complicated feint, but I’m just not seeing it. Since we're screwed if he really is up to something, I'll bank on him being as stupid as he seems. I’ll take a strong but stupid opponent over a weak but intelligent one any day

Okay, making me feel better about your perception and handling of the situation. However, I'm still thinking in terms of it looking like he's bottled a bunch of people in the area, and is looking to make a sacrifice like the one the Starkatteri did so long ago.

You might be on to something, though I'd think if that were the case, he wouldn't have the Brood pushing them back. Unless he needs them to actually fall back into the Core, which I feel would involve destroying the great bulk of the people he was trying to sacrifice.

Icy Shake wrote:“Remember, Bro. You and me get out alive. That’s it. Once we take out these cyberstripes, you burn them. Burn them good. We’ll be the last ones standing on the heap of ashes.”
“That’s Big Daddy you’re talking about, Toaster!” Candlewick hissed.
“Shhh!” Toaster retorted

Candlewick, can you please just, at long fucking last, pony up and stab this fucker in the back?

Oh, he will. But not until the job's done and Toaster tries to turn on the rest. That's when that tank of optimized flamer fuel comes in.

Icy Shake wrote:“Like, why do you have an egg timer? Isn’t that, like, cannibalism or something?” Silver Spoon asked, wrinkling her nose.

Pretty good.

You know, my mom says something like that every time I give my parrot a nibble of egg. To which I have to reply, "Only if you eating steak is cannibalism!"

pokeperson1000 wrote:P.S. wasn't the chapter originally going to be titled apogee? or was that a joke?

Maybe they decided that title was better saved for the next chapter, which actually revolves around events on the Moon.

scootayay wrote:I think my meaning was pretty clear. Characters are protected by plot armor until it is dramatically appropriate, at which point their plot armor comes off. (Nothing prevents it from reactivating later, unless the character is, y'know... dead.)

To put it another way, plot armor prevents major characters from being killed under insufficiently dramatic circumstances. And since we're in the endgame content, it's all sufficiently dramatic from here on out.

swicked wrote:It's the regional Hoofington drug, Moon Dust. Med-X cut with very highly refined moonstone. Introduced way back in chapter 16 and popped up a few times since.
It's not common or anything... but the supply already existed.

Oh yeah, I forgot that contained a tiny amount of moonstone.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:I thought "photon torpedoes" was just a fancy word for "antimatter / clean thermonuclear warhead" (1), in order to avoid shocking the audience of your pacifistic space-utopia sci-fi series by implying that the series' good guys are actually being trigger happy with nuclear weapons, at a time were people were actively fearing a nuclear apocalypse in real life?

(1): You know, because in space, lacking atmosphere to create a blast effect, a nuclear explosion would be all about the intense burst of energy produced as photons in order to carry energy to the target.

Correct. Though to be fair, nuclear weapons aren't as big a deal when there's so little stuff in so very much space.

by CD Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:45 pm

Caoimhe wrote:Second, because I'm one of those people who can't enjoy anything without analyzing themes and deeper meaning... your comment poses this question: is PH trying to say something about polyamory at all through BJ and P-21 or sexuality in general (possibly with regards to the latest reveal about Crumpets)? In the contemporary wasteland world of PH specifically, almost every character has more or less guilt free sex and there is little to be said for stable relationships or pairings. In fact, considering how BJ cheating on Glory went, the narrative almost drives the point that monogamy and sexual preference is a bad thing. The end result of conflict showing that polyamory and bisexuality the only truly comfortable way to live,with adhering to a particular sexual orientation and monogamy almost being the root cause of relationship problems.

If there is anything to be said about monogamy versus polyamory, I think it stems from extreme cultural differences. The wasteland has a high mortality rate what with all the radiation, raiders, wars and monsters, so it makes sense that only a very loose morality prevails amongst wasteland ponies. Doing the dirty deed with a partner that isn't even halfway perfect for oneself is how the population sustains itself. Though forming communities for mutual defense would encourage some family bonding, these communities can also be ripped apart just as easily, forcing ponies to move on. Sex and birth become a fact of life, and clinging to one special somepony is just going to leave you frustrated and heartbroken.

The Enclave on the other hand has to husband its resources. Population control is a clear goal of their propaganda efforts and civil law. Not only would this push them to promoting homosexuality, I think at their core, Enclave pegasi are actually deeply conservative about sex. Promiscuity would lead to unwanted pregnancy, including teenage pregnancy, which they would want to avoid. Even lesbian or gay couples would be shamed for having lots of anonimous sex because it sets a bad example to the straight population. Overall, if the Enclave could pass a law forbidding pegasi to bump uglies without a license, they'd do it. Controlled breeding is what they want. A strong emphasis on monogamy prevents out-of-wedlock foals, 'immoral' behaviour, and ensures foals born in the Enclave have stable, supportive families to raise them, ensuring the best usage of limited resources and space. And given Glory's father is a politician and is from a military family, she might be held to Enclave morality even harder than other pegasi. Even if it's a "do as we say, not as we do" kind of morality, given her father's questionable choice of spouse and... prolific accomplishments in procreation.

by Guest Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:02 pm

Caoimhe wrote:Crap I forgot to include how the percepitron, in addition to being a well used narrative device, exacerbates the free love idea. Oh fooey, another time.

If by free love you mean love that is taken is free then you have to explain how Deus/Doof and the actions he took figure into this free love concept. I'm pretty sure this is wasn't what you were getting at (Or maybe it was, maybe this is the incredibly ugly extreme of the free love idea) but that device is truly disgusting when used in the manner BJ has used it. It goes many steps beyond voyeurism which is fucked up to begin with.

by CD Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:10 pm

Last wrote:If by free love you mean love that is taken is free then you have to explain how Deus/Doof and the actions he took figure into this free love concept. I'm pretty this is wasn't what you were getting at (Or maybe it was, maybe this is the incredibly ugly extreme of the free love idea) but that device is truly disgusting when used in the manner BJ has used it. It goes many steps beyond voyeurism which is fucked up to begin with.

Eh, canon Equestria always struck me as a place where free will and civil rights have no place. Remember Twilight's reform spell backup plan for Discord? How about the fact a unicorn like her can just cast a 'want it, need it' spell? Whole essays can be written about their alien ways of violating unwilling minds. Cultural differences.

by Guest Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:17 pm

CD wrote:
Last wrote:If by free love you mean love that is taken is free then you have to explain how Deus/Doof and the actions he took figure into this free love concept. I'm pretty this is wasn't what you were getting at (Or maybe it was, maybe this is the incredibly ugly extreme of the free love idea) but that device is truly disgusting when used in the manner BJ has used it. It goes many steps beyond voyeurism which is fucked up to begin with.
Eh, canon Equestria always struck me as a place where free will and civil rights have no place. Remember Twilight's reform spell backup plan for Discord? How about the fact a unicorn like her can just cast a 'want it, need it' spell? Whole essays can be written about their alien ways of violating unwilling minds. Cultural differences.

I would definitely disagree that just because you can do something it's accepted, this is a kids' show after all I don't think the theme mindrape is an acceptable one. And even in our soceity the most heinous acts are justified when we use them against people we deem monsters, honestly I'm not trying to offend anyone but the only acceptable rape joke is "Don't drop the soap" it's very telling that one used in reference to prisoners is ok but any other kind is not.

by Vixie Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:00 pm

Last wrote:The only acceptable rape joke is "Don't drop the soap" it's very telling that one used in reference to prisoners is ok but any other kind is not.

Not to derail any conversation or be the one to cause trouble, but are you saying that prisoner rape jokes are okay because rape in prison is okay because they're prisoners and therefore lose human rights/deserve it/etc.?
Just to be clear, of course. I may have made a terrible misunderstanding.
Crazy

by Guest Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:33 pm

Let me be clear, what I'm saying is the people who tend to care about those types of jokes in my experience don't tend to care when the jokes are made about prisoners for the reasons you listed, yes. When I said they're acceptable I didn't mean by my own standards, I meant by society's standards.

When is the last time you heard someone possibly facing loss of their job because they said "don't drop the soap"?

by CD Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:42 pm

Last wrote:Let me be clear, what I'm saying is the people who tend to care about those types of jokes in my experience don't tend to care when the jokes are made about prisoners for the reasons you listed, yes. When I said they're acceptable I didn't mean by my own standards, I meant by society's standards.

When is the last time you heard someone possibly facing loss of their job because they said "don't drop the soap"?

In a drug store?

by O. Hinds Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:43 pm

Vixie wrote:So... Is the lengthy technical explaination about tank mechanics and photon torpedoes going here?

The photon torpedo thing was Bronode. He came up with the idea that they might use a photon lattice to solve the problem of attaining total reaction in an antimatter explosive.

The tank mechanics thing was mine but wasn't new, exactly; Somber doesn't recall our previous conversation on the subject. As Somber now neither knows nor cares how the tanks work (which I have difficulty wrapping my head around, as to me it seems pretty important to the story), I'm still using the system I thought we'd agreed on ages ago. I shan't talk about it here due to not wanting people to accidentally think that the idea is official PH, but I'm pretty sure it's in the headcanon thread. Somewhere.

SilentCarto wrote:I think this comment says as much about Storm Chaser as Amadi.

Aye! :)

SilentCarto wrote:Unless he needs them to actually fall back into the Core, which I feel would involve destroying the great bulk of the people he was trying to sacrifice.

...Why would pushing them into the Core prevent him from sacrificing them? Wouldn't it make it substantially easier?

by Guest Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:54 pm

CD wrote:
In a drug store?

Oh you.

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