Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

by Harmony Ltd. Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:57 pm

(not related to the current chapter, but I kind of feel that this is relevant to Blackjack as a character)

by **RoboRed** Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:08 pm

Well, now that I've finished real life obligations and am awake enough to read, I have done so.

...And...wow...where to begin? I came this close to tearing up, but not quite. Seriously, though, that part where she removed Blackjack's memories and started sending her and the others after Lacunae? I haven't felt this soul-crushed since the ending of Background Pony. Might have actually gotten me to cry, too, had there not have been random references dispersed around...

The Goddess literally could not put herself in LittlePip’s horseshoes and anticipate what she might do. In a rush, I was learning more about the Stabl...
Oh dear sweet Luna. They were the same pony? They hadn’t been joking about that?! How... she... I... I couldn’t believe that a tiny, sweet, smart mare like her could be the strapping goddess of Wasteland death! I... I’d just not think about it.

How interesting she finds out the full truth now...

The boxcar had disappeared too.
I suddenly felt a sensation of déjà vu…
The car crashed down upon the remaining pair of greens with a squeal of broken metal.

This was something else that broke me out of the sads. I have never forgotten the boxcar incident from Littlepip's first alicorn kill. This just made me laugh in the middle of everything.

Can't believe Lacunae's gone, though. That's...well, it's just sad.

“Shouldn’t you be shooting?” a stallion growled beside me, and I jumped as I saw the shimmer of a zebra stealth cloak. Lancer lifted his rifle and silently blew out the eyes of a hellhound with a wicked beam rifle who had been taking aim at us.

This made me laugh, too. There's no way in hell he's staying around, though. I know I may have wished it at one point. I recall clearly doing so when I first read their encounter way back oh so long ago, but that time has definitely passed.

Well, now to see what happens next.

Oh, and Wave...as usual, you know what you must do.

by **RoboRed** Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:10 pm

Oh, and I fucking knew what song that was before I clicked the link.

by O. Hinds Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:19 pm

@Icy Shake:
Ah, thank you as always.

Icy Shake wrote:Goddesses-damned"? Or is she having fun here?

This one's deliberate. :)

Icy Shake wrote:I guess it depends on general quotation capitalization practice, but I think the impact would be greater with "Blackjack" not capitalized, and the game isn't--necessarily, at least--capitalized.

Ah, good idea!

Icy Shake wrote:Also, do you like Black Book capitalized, or un-? There were a couple instances of capitalized early on, then until pretty recently it was uncapitalized.

I don't know, I'm afraid.

by Downloaded Skill Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:20 pm

Hinds I'm rather curious about how much the Phoenix Soul Talisman and the truly prodigious amount of soul magic interact with Rampage's anatomy on a more technical level. We know it allows perfect reincarnation, but does it allow her brain to control her body even without a physical pathway? We don't really have concrete details yet which is why I want to speculate.

I notice a lot of her deaths would have her brain or heart compromised in some way. Are you saying that Rampage's body would accept commands since the soul magic allows a non-physical connection between her brain and body? Since Rampage's brain is alive for a few seconds after decapitation, supposedly, it would be possible for the body to make the kill if the "soul magic connection" theory is true.

by Harmony Ltd. Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:25 pm

I'll just just point something out : Rampage doesn't lose her memories, even after painting the walls with her own brain and regenerating a new, fresh one. This is possibly a clue. Of what, I don't know, but I'll just leave this here.

by Meleagridis Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:15 pm

Just remembered that, a while ago, someone was asking for favourite quotes from the story. So before I forget, here is mine:

“You don’t finish nightmares, Goldie. You wake up from them.”

Moving on.

Chapter Reactions:

Couple typos:

So, I've got half of reading reactions today (I hesitate to call it review) because I was far too engrossed in the first half of the story to leave very much at all. Usually when I read Somber’s work (or anything of a significant volume) I try to take a break once or twice between chunks of story because I am far from a marathon reader. A shower, do the laundry, something to break it all up. I tried to do so somewhere in the first two thirds of the story but found myself unable to stay away from the computer. This chapter pulled me in like a whirlpool. I was very fond.

I Like Lacunae: A Tangent:

WavemasterRyx wrote:I'll try to write my actual commentary later, once I've stopped crying, so it may be a few days, sorry, Somber. It was a very well done chapter though, I don't care what anyone else says.
For now though, I think I can sum up all my thoughts on the chapter with this.
Spoiler:

Responses to Harmony, Downloaded Skill, Swicked:

by O. Hinds Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:49 pm

Downloaded Skill wrote:Hinds I'm rather curious about how much the Phoenix Soul Talisman and the truly prodigious amount of soul magic interact with Rampage's anatomy on a more technical level. We know it allows perfect reincarnation, but does it allow her brain to control her body even without a physical pathway? We don't really have concrete details yet which is why I want to speculate.

I notice a lot of her deaths would have her brain or heart compromised in some way. Are you saying that Rampage's body would accept commands since the soul magic allows a non-physical connection between her brain and body? Since Rampage's brain is alive for a few seconds after decapitation, supposedly, it would be possible for the body to make the kill if the "soul magic connection" theory is true.

I don't know, I'm afraid; I was but hypothesizing.

@Meleagridis:
Thank you for the error spotting, though the three that you pointed out were actually already reported (sorry).

by Meleagridis Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:04 am

swicked wrote:
It occures to me, if her healing talisman were somehow suspended, this would be hillarious in old world blues.
"Ah! The lobotomite speaks! It must be the almighty Tesla Coil we... no, wait, I have that right here. Huh..."

I'm trying to think of who would be the best one to place in Big Mt. Rampage would be fun, but she'd have the same solution to everything. Glory would probably science through everything... and fly over the rest. P-21 would just sneak through it all.

Y'know, for some reason my brain is saying Snails. Snails or Boo.

Addendum: This was before I saw what Rampage would do to the Think Tank. Now I'm not so sure.

by Luminous Lead Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:38 am

This chapter was... well done. It felt different, but in a good way. It was short compared to some of the previous monster chapters, but the flow and pacing were good. The melding to cannon was handled very well, definitely no qualms there.

Off the wall, I have to say I really like how Blackjack was mildly horrified at Lil'Pip's "Master Plan".

Hey, imagine what would have happened if Lacunae had died in the balefire, and all those alicorns had left Maripony WITHOUT getting back their memories and hearts? It would've been like the Zerg when their Overmind died: indiscriminate bloody slaughter, everywhere. Come to think of it, Blackjack just saved the wasteland way more than Lil'Pip!

Man, that violin music really brought home her (apparent) death for me. Very appropriate choice! Lacunae's sendoff was touching enough to move from denial to acceptance in relatively short order. Come to think of it, if Lacunae too has no original soul, then Rampage should be able to take a little comfort in the fact that she was not alone.

Goddess wrote:Triumphant, a pegasus within Unity identified.

I thought one of the problems with Unity was that it only had unicorns in it? Was this changed/retconned at some point? Am I simply crazy?

Blackjack wrote:
I was already imagining it. LittlePip was smart. She’d try and hit the Goddess in some way the Goddess wouldn’t see coming. Maybe she was going to dump those thousands and thousands of memory orbs that had been hidden under Shattered Hoof into the Goddess. No clue what would happen. The Goddess made sure she’d telekinetically repel anything small and round. The Black Book? Maybe she had some spell to affect the souls in Unity? That was pondered gravely. What if LittlePip could extract the Goddess’s soul from Unity and bind it in a soul jar? Or an even more powerful spell. Twilight recalled the zebra lore of a star falling on Equestria. Perhaps that?

I loved this scene. It really reminded me of a moment in Animorphs where the main character, Jake, has his head infested by a brain-dwelling parasite. The parasite then uses Jake's paranoid brain to imagine all the events and threats in the surrounding area, to no avail.

One of the problems with the Goddess was that by cramming divergent views into a single entity (Lacunae), Unity became overspecialized to the point that she had massive blindspots, and relying on the mind of a mare with terrible foresight was not nearly enough to make up for these shortcomings.

Now we only need to deal with Cognetium, and Hoofington city. Good thing Blackjack has her epic tier armour, and a magic bullet. :)

by Moodyman90 Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am

If my memory serves it's not that Unity as a whole was only made from Unicorns, just that because the main four that made up the Goddess was only Unicorns that there was a bit of a problem.

That's the big thing about Red Eye's plan. He wanted a suitable unicorn and Pegasus to take the dip with him, an Earth pony, to hopefully get the even balance and mix that The Goddess and her Unity seemed to lack.

And I guess hopefully the fact the God/Goddess he was trying to create would actually be able to make male Alicorns since it wouldn't be all mares as the main and core component. I really don't remember if that was a goal for Red Eye as well or if I'm misremembering as a whole.

by SilentCarto Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:54 am

Ch. 58 Commentary:

Editing:

by Valikdu Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:56 am

Let me rephrase the query: after Lacuna's personality dissemination, wouldn't her body contain Psalm's soul and fragments of Psalm's memory?

Of course, if it was so, Psalm would probably take her own life immediately, but still.

I really don't remember if that was a goal for Red Eye as well or if I'm misremembering as a whole.

I think it was.

by Kaidon Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:31 am

Awesome chapter, though I've heard that song used as satire far too many times to take it seriously anymore, but that's my own fault I guess - It was a good choice.

On a side note, does anyone know if there's a list of the songs linked in PH around somewhere? They always accompanied amazing scenes.
As for fan music I'd imagine there's a list of it on the FOE resource site.

by Sparklecake Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:47 am

Hello. Decided to register just so I could toss in a comment here and there. I've been reading PH since about February. As a professional lurker, I also skimmed through most of the comment threads on it while I was reading (yes, there were tens of thousands of comments...) at EQD and here.

I have to say, Somber: I enjoyed FO:E a great deal. It appealed to me on many levels, though it certainly has its flaws. However, PH goes a bit beyond simple entertainment. The fact that the story is about colorful ponies in the magical land of post-apocalyptic Equestria doesn't even faze me anymore. It's been one hell of an experience for me, evoking every emotion imaginable and taking me through feelings I didn't know I had. Honestly, when I read 33 I had to take a break from the story for two weeks just to process everything that had happened up to there. That wasn't a bad thing, though. It was just very, very intense.

What's funny is that, despite the content, I don't even feel like PH is "grimdark". There's way too much hope, fun, adventure, silliness, comedy, friendship, and other positive aspects for that. PH treads a fine line between grim darkness and hopeful light. For every atrocity, there's a triumph. For every worry, there's the thought of a better tomorrow. I honestly don't enjoy standard grimdark stories (e.g. Game of Thrones isn't really my thing), but it's this mixture of positivity with darkness that really sets stories like PH (and FO:E) apart for me. The darkness and horror emphasize the adventure and moments of happiness, making them that much sweeter and more meaningful. I find it inspiring that you've managed to mix MLP's core values into the story in such a fundamental way.

I know that as a writer you prefer hearing reasons and explanations to mindless compliments, and I could probably write a couple hundred pages detailing my thoughts on PH, but for the time being (I don't know if I'll post more or not) I'm going to keep this relatively simple: I think PH is incredible. I don't care how long it takes to finish; I agree with the school of thought that since PH isn't a novel and acts more like a serial, criticizing it for its length is only tangentially relevant (though criticisms related to pacing in individual arcs are certainly valid, I have no issue with its pacing so far). So long as the character interaction continues to be as varied and interesting as it is, I could probably read it forever.

I hope everything works out for you in your life, Somber. You don't know me, but I do care about what happens to you. Thank you for putting so much of yourself into making this story the best you can, and also to the editors and everyone else who helps with the story.

Small comment on 58:

Derpmind wrote:
Spoiler:

Spoiler:

by Sparklecake Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:02 am

Certainly, it's true that PH is viewed as grimdark by many sources (this thread's title included), and I'm not trying to argue that it's objectively not grimdark. It's not a well-defined term, after all. Obviously, there's going to be a lot of disagreement because of that. For my purposes only, to qualify as "grimdark", it's not adequate just for a story to contain horrifying themes. Those themes need to be dominant, and more importantly, hopelessness needs to be a constant theme throughout the story. PH is (very roughly) a 50/50 mix of dark themes and lighter themes, and that's a big difference compared to verifiably grimdark media like Warhammer 40k, where hopelessness is the defining feature of the property.

Like I said though, I'm not trying trying to force this definition on anyone. That's just how I feel about it.

by Somber Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:12 am

Welcome Sparklecake. You have a very interesting idea. It'll be interesting to see if you do. :3 Also, I don't see PH as Grimdark either. I like to think of it as 'epic adventure'. Things happen that are dramatic all heading towards a heroic climax. I hope that it come out well.

by Sparklecake Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:24 am

Oh, I'm not upset. I was just trying to be explicit about how I feel about it. Sorry if I came off that way. I also agree with everything you just wrote, short of semantics.

Somber, "epic adventure" is word-for-word how I've described it in the past. It makes me very happy to know that's the same term you use. Looking forward to the future.

by Valikdu Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:47 am

Certainly, it's true that PH is viewed as grimdark by many sources (this thread's title included), and I'm not trying to argue that it's objectively not grimdark. It's not a well-defined term, after all.

Grimdark isn't a real word.

...

Well, I suppose that it has become a word, now. If I'm right, it's supposed to define a piece where the "dark" element has been deliberately turned up so high that it doesn't really make sense anymore, like in Warhammer 40.000 (where it's the grim darkness of the far future and there's only war).

And PH certainly has a lot of dark elements, but it's not the main defining quality. [see above posts for well-worded explanations of what is]

by Sparklecake Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:00 am

swicked wrote:The grimdark comes from a dedication to the work and his characters, not in the least any desire to be "grimdark".

Indeed, though I'd personally call that realistic writing (in that things that should be reasonably expected to happen tend to happen, which is one of my favorite parts of PH), not grimdark.

Valikdu wrote:
Grimdark isn't a real word.

...

Well, I suppose that it has become a word, now. If I'm right, it's supposed to define a piece where the "dark" element has been deliberately turned up so high that it doesn't really make sense anymore, like in Warhammer 40.000 (where it's the grim darkness of the far future and there's only war).

And PH certainly has a lot of dark elements, but it's not the main defining quality. [see above posts for well-worded explanations of what is]

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I mean. As grimdark isn't a "real word", it's not well-defined, so it's hard to say if something is or isn't grimdark. In my personal view of things, PH isn't grimdark, but I have no problem with those who choose to view it as such.

by O. Hinds Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:14 am

@SilentCarto:
Thank you as always for the error spotting.

@Sparklecake:
Welcome!

by Sparklecake Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:24 am

O. Hinds wrote:@Sparklecake:
Welcome!

Thanks! And thanks as well for your work on the story.

by WavemasterRyx Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:59 am

O. Hinds wrote:Yes, I saw that on your tumblr and thought that that was probably what it was for; I think that it does its job quite well. Good luck with the crying (hopefully you don't wear glasses; I do, so whenever my eyes water too much I have a choice between disabling my vision for a bit or getting saltwater stains on the lenses).

Thank you, Hinds. I just had to do something for her... it's not as good as she deserves, though.
And thank you again... I do wear glasses, but they only keep me from straining my eyes, so I can see without them, I just get migraines from it, and I'm used to washing the tears off them. I managed to make it through writing my commentary without sobbing uncontrollably again, at least. Still cried quite a bit though...

Sparklecake wrote:Hello. Decided to register just so I could toss in a comment here and there. I've been reading PH since about February. As a professional lurker, I also skimmed through most of the comment threads on it while I was reading (yes, there were tens of thousands of comments...) at EQD and here.

Hello, sir. I hope you enjoy your stay here.

Somber wrote:Right now I'm in extreme pain from a bad tooth. Take everything I say with that in mind.

I'm very sorry you're having trouble again, sir... I really do hope things get better for you soon...
Please just try to take care of yourself, sir, and remember that I believe in you.

I think you did a very commendable job with this chapter, sir, especially for how important it was to FoE.
Thank you for writing Project Horizons, and thank you to Hinds and Bronode for all of your help with it. And a special thanks to your three guest assistants as well.

*hugs each of you gently*

Chapter 58 Commentary:

by O. Hinds Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:18 am

WavemasterRyx wrote:I do wear glasses, but they only keep me from straining my eyes, so I can see without them, I just get migraines from it, and I'm used to washing the tears off them.

I'm sorry about all the tears, but you can take some consolation that you've better eyesight than me.

by Guest Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:45 am

@SparkleCakes
Hiya, welcome to the forums and all!

by Guest Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:35 am

@Swicked
I don't think it was really possible to get inside Lacunae's head; certainly not easy, anyway. That said, I did like her, more from how she interacted with others (mostly Blackjack) than from connecting with her. She's not my favorite or anything, if we were to play favorites, but it was always nice and sort of cute/awkward/charming when she came out of her shell (or, more often, was forced out) for an instant.

by Derpmind Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:41 am

Kaidon wrote:On a side note, does anyone know if there's a list of the songs linked in PH around somewhere? They always accompanied amazing scenes.
As for fan music I'd imagine there's a list of it on the FOE resource site.

So I tried looking to see if that list existed somewhere, and while there's a bunch of fan music on youtube I couldn't find anything. I did find this little animation, which I'm sorry to say is hilarious. And then I took a look at the FoE resource site, which I kinda haven't looked at much before.

Take a look. 79 pages, with 20 items on each page. Basically, wow.

Also, there's no way to sort for music and PH at the same time. How

So I guess it doesn't actually have a list of PH music, and there's also no list of of the songs PH links to that I can find.

by Kaidon Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:47 am

Derpmind wrote:
Also, there's no way to sort for music and PH at the same time. :how:So I guess it doesn't actually have a list of PH music, and there's also no list of of the songs PH links to that I can find.

I suppose I'll wait until PH has ended and I inevitably re-read it and find the songs :P

I just remember that the hightower 'boss fight' against the warden, and Blackjack teaming up with the various gangers against the Harbingers and Deus, were both scenes accompanied by songs which really strengthened the immersion.

by Meleagridis Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:24 am

Okay I'm running out the door so I don't have time to elaborate or catch up and check if someone else said this already, but if I don't mention it now I'll just forget.

What if Psalm decides she's gonna finish Operation Partypooper?

by Derpmind Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:45 pm

Kaidon wrote:
Derpmind wrote:
Also, there's no way to sort for music and PH at the same time. :how:So I guess it doesn't actually have a list of PH music, and there's also no list of of the songs PH links to that I can find.

I suppose I'll wait until PH has ended and I inevitably re-read it and find the songs :P

I just remember that the hightower 'boss fight' against the warden, and Blackjack teaming up with the various gangers against the Harbingers and Deus, were both scenes accompanied by songs which really strengthened the immersion.

Hey, I can find those two! The first scene's from the hightower arch, which I narrowed down to chapter 48, Inferno, so a quick ctfl+f for Warden got me a link to Night on Bald Mountain. The second scene is from the chapter Reaper, which is #42, and this is where I kinda got stuck re-reading the entire chapter because it's awesome. Anyways, while there's a part during the big fight where music starts playing, there's no link there. Maybe the link was removed? It really looks like there should be one there.

Also, found this little bit:

Ch. 42 wrote:My magic’s strength wasn’t sufficient to swing Taurus’ rifle around, so I copied his style and braced it with my forelegs and shoulder as I slowly panned across the Harbingers amassed outside. Not a lot of talking… just a whole lot of waiting. For a moment, I rested the crosshairs on the head of an unaware mare. I could kill her right now; take out one of my enemies. I shuddered and pointed the gun away. No, I’d never be a sniper.

Somber, how the hell do you do keep doing this? Are you so good at writing believable stuff that Life's Irony just naturally creeps in?

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[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion