Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

by Harmony Ltd. Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:10 am

What kind of stealth "technology" do they use to mask the beam ?

Not that it's really important in itself, but I'm curious as to what you have in mind.

by O. Hinds Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:40 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:What kind of stealth "technology" do they use to mask the beam ?

Not that it's really important in itself, but I'm curious as to what you have in mind.

A stealth field, the same base sort as zebra stealth armor (and stealthbucks, but Equestria somehow couldn't figure out how to make stealth fields as good as those of the unterpferde). The technology is more complicated, of course, because, because the concealment has to be projected along a long beam away from the projector.

by Harmony Ltd. Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:52 pm

Can we have a scale of how difficult to build and maintain or how costly in resources these guns are ?

by O. Hinds Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:22 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Can we have a scale of how difficult to build and maintain or how costly in resources these guns are ?

Hm, tricky... Well, it has all the difficulties of both a beam rifle and a stealth suit, minimum, and its definitely higher than the minimum. They're only so large, though, so there's a limit to how great the resource consumption of their construction can probably be. Regarding maintenance, it does have the advantage that the only moving parts are basic stuff like the trigger and maybe a lenscap (the scope might have some internal mechanics, but I doubt that that's a problem). I've gotten the impression that beam rifles and stealth suits are pretty reliable, so that's good; Stiriae have more complexity and therefore more stuff to break, but they're also elite and very short-run weapons, allowing higher quality per build (which makes it more difficult to fix them when they break but less likely that they will break).

The Alliance definitely has the resources to build new ones and keep them operational; they might not recoup their investment, but all it takes is one important assassination down the line (besides, the last time a nuclear weapon was used was over six decades ago, and that's not stopped development and production of them IRL; military tech has a lot of deterrence ("Hey, are we sure that we want to turn down a deal from the people with the invisible fifty-klick snipers?" or "In addition to the economic concerns of going to war with the Alliance, madame president, you would have to make sure that you never have a line of sight to an unsecured location at any time in the foreseeable future.") and just-in-case involved in the cost/benefit analysis).

The Remnant would have a harder time, of course. If necessary, they could likely pull the cloaking system off and basically tape it onto another rifle (It's more complicated than that, but I expect that the Remnant has people who could do it... and it probably would involve tape. Also, the base rifles of the Stiria are also higher than normal quality, so accuracy would suffer.), but there's not much they can do if the cloaking system breaks. They might be able to pull parts from another Stiria's cloaking system, but that's iffy unless they've got a really good mechanic (and even then, it's uncertain). The Remnant's one or two working Stiria (or at least beam rifles that have Stiria cloaking systems and maybe scopes) are almost certainly status symbols as much as, possibly more than, commonly-used weapons. Being given the Stiria (or one of the Stiriae... though I'm now thinking that it would be good if the Remnant was down to a single cobbled-together Stiria, making it a unique weapon (the Alliance keeping its locked down to authorized personnel and any PR Stiriae left over in lost supply dumps or whatever being... lost)) would be being told "You are the absolute best in the Remnant with a beam rifle." The bearer would still probably carry a normal beam rifle most of the time, though, only pulling the Stiria out for special occasions.

by O. Hinds Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:50 pm

I decided to take a bit of time to flesh the Miliozi government out a wee bit more:
The Miliozi stratocracy is headed by a council of six tribunes who serve potentially for life but usually only until, in old age, they step down and take on lesser (but no less honorable) duties; Miliozi law contains provisions for forcing a tribune out of their position, but this has not been needed. The head of the council and the "leader" of the Miliozi is the broad-stripe tribune (tribunus laticlavius), who is elected, either from the council of from lower in the hierarchy, by the five thin-stripe tribunes (tribuni angusticlavii) when the position becomes vacant (a general election among the Miliozi may be held as a gridlock breaker (if the council is unable to come to an agreement) or as a response to disagreement with the council's choice); vacancies among the thin-stripe tribunes are also filled by council elections (with the same general vote rules, though here they apply only if the broad-stripe tribune is also unable to resolve the situation).

by Meleagridis Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:46 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Meleagridis wrote: you can rationalize Pinkie Sense all you want in all sorts of ways- but nothing will change that it is there because a few writers (and presumably a very young Lauren Faust) thought it would be funny.
That's a Doylist explanation, though. In order for narrative causality to be among FoE's laws of physics, it would have to be part of a Watsonian explanation.

[Light Googling]
Okay, let's try this.

Equestria's ties to fable logic may be debatable, but if we accept that FoE canon accepts at least season 1 of the show, then we can assume some of the rules governing FiM have sway in the rules that govern FoE. And the rules that govern FiM are alien to us-- well, alien to our real lives, anyway. If they played by our rules, Twilight would be dead in a tragic moving accident and Derpy would be charged with accidental manslaughter and imprisoned, possibly worse for killing a friend of the royals (anybody reading this has my explicit permission to make that a grim AU story). Slapstick is a very real and tangible thing that affects the fundamental laws of reality in FiM. HOWEVER: I don't doubt that there are probably plenty of examples of this unreal reality that might make the events of FoE impossible. We all know that what we've seen in the show would never in a million years lead to out-and-out war. FoE's existence requires that we envision an equestria that is just a little more real than what we see, one where an anvil to the head probably can and will kill you. In hardening the soft edges, these toon physics can easily be tossed aside and disregarded in any kind of capacity as evidence. Double however...

Pinkie. For most of FoE (as I remember it) Pinkie was just odd and unthought of, as a side-character from 200+ years in the past should be. So mostly she showed up in memory orbs as a zany but mostly normal detail. Until the mirror. I assume we all remember the mirror? Where here previously vague inclinations of possible events turns into outright prescience, allowing her to communicate with a pony 200 years into the future by talking to herself in a mirror and recording it onto a memory orb. It's a major boost in the abilities she'd established that emerged to correct a far flung adventure she had little to no prior investment towards. Saving the wasteland wasn't some driving goal or the function of her ministry, it was a correction she made to a plot before moving on in her own life and never having such an episode of clarity again (unless otherwise noted in different sidefics). Her 'Pinkie Sense' suddenly spiked, made a plot point, and faded back into normalcy.

Personally, I've always just believed that narrative causality was a part of the FoE-verse just because it feels right. But Pinkie's direct interference in a way that allows Pip to overcome adversity without outright sidestepping it leads me to believe that there's a possibility her odd sensibilities might just be channeling a more tangible force of an in-universe enforced narrative.

Does that make any sense? I... honestly can't tell.

O. Hinds wrote:
StoneSlinger88 wrote:Yeah, LittlePip finds her old room. And there's the bunch of people in FO3 who successfully turn people into ghouls, they're camped in a basement outside of Megaton.
Ah. Would you drop a link to the wiki, please? I've still not gotten Fo3 running.

The Enclave gave some people irradiated water, told people it was holy, and that made the people build a cult where they drank nasty water until they either died or went ghoul.

O. Hinds wrote:Idea:
Magical energy beam weapons have some considerable advantages from a sniper's point of view. They are recoilless, and the beams travel in straight lines for long distances, unaffected by wind, gravity, or drag.

True. But the only sniping energy weapon in Fallout (that I remember) actually used a solid projectile instead of a beam or plasma bolt. Maybe there are other, unseen disadvantages to beams that haven't been thought of. Dissipation or dispersion, perhaps?

by O. Hinds Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:25 pm

@Meleagridis re narrative causality:
Maybe the EoH set up a stable time loop for Gardens? Or Pinkie was just being random. I don't know. In any case, I'm hesitant to take Pinkie as evidence here (she proves that what she does is possible, but she's also apparently highly improbable).

Meleagridis wrote:Personally, I've always just believed that narrative causality was a part of the FoE-verse just because it feels right.

Interesting; to me it feels quite wrong.

Meleagridis wrote:The Enclave gave some people irradiated water, told people it was holy, and that made the people build a cult where they drank nasty water until they either died or went ghoul.

Ah, thank you.

Meleagridis wrote:True. But the only sniping energy weapon in Fallout (that I remember) actually used a solid projectile instead of a beam or plasma bolt. Maybe there are other, unseen disadvantages to beams that haven't been thought of. Dissipation or dispersion, perhaps?

You mean the gauss guns? There are visible tradeoffs. To begin with, there's the visible beam problem that I mentioned; beam weapons would also often do less damage, though this depends on the target characteristics (and beam weapons are capable of disintegrating the target). Beam weapons, however, are lighter, have no recoil, have greater potential range and accuracy (under normal conditions, ie on planet in atmosphere), and do not rely on discreet, specialized ammunition.

by Meleagridis Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:45 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Meleagridis wrote:Personally, I've always just believed that narrative causality was a part of the FoE-verse just because it feels right.
Interesting; to me it feels quite wrong.

It might just be my way of rationalizing the two extremes of the source material. Nothing is more self-aware than a funny cartoon, but Fallout has always been a beacon of this as well (Seymour, anyone?). I guess it isn't narrative causality in and of itself, but the whole kit and caboodle of these sorts of settings. There are outlandish names that may or may not have an in-universe explanation solely for the purpose of a reference, there will always be people who reject complacency, coincidence is the norm... and often the laws of the universe are secondary to the laws of narrative. Often.

I can't really prove any of it, it's just what I think of this and other settings.

O.Hinds wrote:
You mean the gauss guns? There are visible tradeoffs. To begin with, there's the visible beam problem that I mentioned; beam weapons would also often do less damage, though this depends on the target characteristics (and beam weapons are capable of disintegrating the target). Beam weapons, however, are lighter, have no recoil, have greater potential range and accuracy (under normal conditions, ie on planet in atmosphere), and do not rely on discreet, specialized ammunition.

The sci-50's tech of the fallout universe hasn't ever been too rigid, but would the visible beam be the only reason that long-range lasers were never developed? Would there be no other obstacles to production?

by O. Hinds Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:48 pm

Meleagridis wrote:The sci-50's tech of the fallout universe hasn't ever been too rigid, but would the visible beam be the only reason that long-range lasers were never developed? Would there be no other obstacles to production?

I don't see why. Lasers travel to their targets in straight lines at the speed of light; those are big plusses for a wide variety of applications, and the Fallout universe would have an easier time than our universe taking advantage of them, I think. Also, see this.

Of course, FoE is a horse of a different color, since the beams are magic instead of lasers, but I think that it would still work.

by Meleagridis Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:25 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Of course, FoE is a horse of a different color, since the beams are magic instead of lasers, but I think that it would still work.

I suppose. It just strikes me as one of those things you find after a few robot-riddled rooms and countless post-apocalyptic logs amounting to, "Production problems, production problems, black humour about the death of a fellow worker, production problems, we got something working but it's not ready yet."

Unrelated:

Was just gonna be Pain Train but then some Guai myth got in there too:

by O. Hinds Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:50 am

Meleagridis wrote:I suppose. It just strikes me as one of those things you find after a few robot-riddled rooms and countless post-apocalyptic logs amounting to, "Production problems, production problems, black humour about the death of a fellow worker, production problems, we got something working but it's not ready yet."

I did mention that it came out at the very end of the war and in quite limited numbers, right? :D

Meleagridis wrote:
Was just gonna be Pain Train but then some Guai myth got in there too:

Awesome. I was waiting to see how you would fold him in, and I am not disappointed. :)

by O. Hinds Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:00 pm

Also... Interesting idea: Perhaps Pain Train is rediscovering geothurgy? If so, and if he comes out of PH with his life and without a goal, Hell would likely want him. Alternatively, if he went to the Moojave, some hellhounds might come to him seeking to learn. Not sure.

by Harmony Ltd. Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:14 pm

Well, only if he became known for it enough for the information to travel that far away, and then only if the people back there managed to grasp the potential importance of this re-discovery.

by O. Hinds Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:04 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Well, only if he became known for it enough for the information to travel that far away, and then only if the people back there managed to grasp the potential importance of this re-discovery.

If Pain Train isn't hallucinating (which is quite possible; after all, minotaurs picking up radio signals doesn't mean that DJ PON3 doesn't exist) and is unique here (as opposed to all diamond dogs and hellhounds being able to hear the stones and the problem with geothurgy being something else), Hell would be very interested if they found out about it, and they'd probably spread the knowledge to other hellhounds even if Pain Train settled elsewhere. That initial knowledge, though... good point.

by O. Hinds Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:02 am

A Thing I Knocked Together:

Also, I'm thinking that, the Alliance being bilingual, the anthem might be wholly instrumental.

by Harmony Ltd. Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:24 am

I like it.

What's the area of influence of the Pax Novae Roamae ? The Roaman peninsula ?

by Harmony Ltd. Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:04 am

I think this may be tangentially relevant to some discussions there's been regarding The War :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Li82YtRF84

by O. Hinds Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:23 pm

Harmony wrote:I like it.

Thanks!

Harmony wrote:What's the area of influence of the Pax Novae Roamae ? The Roaman peninsula ?

I'm not sure; the PNR has been in my mind for quite a while, but I've still not pinned down their exact territory. If they've got the Roaman peninsula, though, it's peripheral; I'm currently thinking that New Roam is somewhere south (though not due south, probably) of Port Maple.

Harmony wrote:I think this may be tangentially relevant to some discussions there's been regarding The War :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Li82YtRF84

Hm, yes, interesting. Though I don't think that the FoE war was lengthy or destructive enough while ongoing (unless you count the Remnant) for its beginning to fall out of play.

by Harmony Ltd. Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:30 pm

Re "Eternal War" : This was more about the "surrendering is the best course of action" thing. How thing have spun out of control because both sides were, for various reasons, unwilling to step down.

by O. Hinds Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:25 am

So I realized that I've been forgetting that there are actually three important cultural groups of zebras on the peninsula. The Miliozi (other Alliance zebras might visit the peninsula, but the Miliozi are the largest and most obvious Alliance zebra group there), the Remnant (or remnant(s) thereof, depending on how PH and ATR turn out for them)… and the Angels. What exactly is the culture of the Angels like, I wonder? To begin with, while both the Miliozi and Remnant descend from Pax Roamana invasion forces, zebras liberated by those forces, and some refugees from the destroyed zebra lands, the Angels descend from those Equestrian zebras trusted and/or powerful enough to end up in Zebratown instead of a camp. That gives them a very different outlook to begin with; add a century or so in a Stable shared with ponies, the formative events described in FoE, and you get… what? Ideas?

by O. Hinds Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:50 am

Oh, out of the NCR's current 46490 or so zebras, about how many would you say are from immigration and how many from domestic reproduction? I think that it's pretty safe to say that PH will leave the Remnant in a state from which at least a few zebras would migrate to the NCR, and there could even be some immigration from the Alliance (though this would be, of course, discouraged, and I think it highly improbable that any Miliozi would leave and join the NCR… and even if there was a dissident of that degree, NCR immigration authorities would probably turn them away out of fear of espionage). Also, would the NCR send out "missionaries", as it were, both to other areas of the peninsula and to the unclaimed (by powers that the NCR recognizes) areas of the mainland? That they can't actually take and hold an area yet doesn't mean that they can't try to build a bit of support, or at least attract immigrants. (Also, I'm getting tired and will be going to bed soon, so apologies if this is less coherent than usual.)

by Harmony Ltd. Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:15 am

Re Angels : "You get… what? Ideas?"

Well, at a guess, I'd say there'd be a strong undercurrent of "okay yeah, bad things happened two centuries ago, we get it... but can we please move on, now ?". Though they would hardly have a monolithic culture, far from it. They're as diverse as wastelanders get. Simply you would need to take into account that most other wastelanders would have to varying degree been hostile to them in the last centuries. I guess "hunt the zebra" could have been a popular sport in some places ?

If you want some inspiration, maybe try to look in the direction of European Jews during the last thousand year. I think you could get some inspiration (though the Holocaust happened in different circumstances here). I guess you can imagine them getting the State of Glyphmark as some kind of token gesture from the NCR to say "okay, let's try to move on, shall we ?".

As for the NCR sending emissaries beyond its frontier to try to rally other people, encourage immigration in its territories, and build support networks ; this seems to be in-character, yes.

Regarding how many zebra are from the inside and how many from the outside... I'd say originally, around the time of the creation of the NCR, it would have been a 50/50 deal. But now, 40 years after ? Well, it would probably be 70/30, taking into account natural growth. That would still mean a lot of first generation immigrants coming from all around the wasteland.

by Meleagridis Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:12 pm

On the topic of Angels, isn't their base of operations (which was in... um, the Everfree? Am I close?) also Ground Zero for alicorn repopulation? I'd imagine that, out of anyone, they would have the highest percentage of alicorn members and likely the only place with multiple alicorn families. Think of how this would affect them, and their interactions with others. The Angels would probably become very familiar with magic, considering that a notable chunk of their population are born as extremely strong magic users (unless you just interpret that strength as coming from Unity, which is possible). This would also make a whole lot of folk distrust the Angels. But at least they, as an entire town of zebras, would likely be used to it.

And it is really important to keep in mind that they are all from a younger generation. I try to remember Big Town, which was basically helpless without player intervention. Since Glyphmark is based on Little Lamplight (which is where the Big Town citizens come from) I can only imagine the outcome in a similar light-- that is to say that they have very limited knowledge and an even more limited grasp on their cultural history. While the changing world tended to their educational gaps, Xenith really seemed to be one of the few who might even be inclined to fill them in culturally.

Consequently, I don't see them getting along very well with zebras that have strong racial pride. Angels wouldn't be 'real zebras' to them. The angels may not even be 'real zebras' to themselves. They'd be something completely different, extolling virtues of pony, zebra, and Unity survivors alike.

___

On a different note, if this rock thing is actually a minotaur thing... you think a minotaur could make a voidstone? Similar to the one that banished the Goddess. Would this be... believable?

by O. Hinds Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:35 am

Meleagridis wrote:On the topic of Angels, isn't their base of operations (which was in... um, the Everfree? Am I close?) also Ground Zero for alicorn repopulation?

It's much closer to the Canterlot Rubble, but I think so. It's where the male alicorns were developed, at any rate.

The stuff about familiarity with magic is a good point.

Meleagridis wrote:Consequently, I don't see them getting along very well with zebras that have strong racial pride. Angels wouldn't be 'real zebras' to them. The angels may not even be 'real zebras' to themselves. They'd be something completely different, extolling virtues of pony, zebra, and Unity survivors alike.

Exactly! That's what makes it so interesting.

Meleagridis wrote:On a different note, if this rock thing is actually a minotaur thing... you think a minotaur could make a voidstone? Similar to the one that banished the Goddess. Would this be... believable?

Hm… I'm not sure if it's a thing for minotaurs in general (a lost art or an undiscovered potential?) or just for Pain Train, but it does seem pretty possible that a voidstone could be produced through geothurgy. It may even be that the zebras got the knowledge from the diamond dogs and that one of the reasons why voidstones are so rare is that their conventional manufacture involves using tricky alchemical processes to emulate geothurgic ones.

by Harmony Ltd. Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:46 am

Man, I should check the numbers, I don't remember what proportion of Alicorns I had put in the State of Glyphmark.

We should make an index somewhere of the "significant" posts and discussions in this thread.

by Meleagridis Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:50 am

Hm.

Now here's a question that the Angels need to answer: since a large part of their population survived Unity, does that mean that they would put value on the individual less or more? While they saw they best aspects of cohesiveness and interdependence, they also saw the very worst. Perhaps even traumatically so. If I had to guess, the ones that still saw promise in a collective would leave to that second-coming-of-Unity cult, and the ones that valued individualism and independence would stay with the Angels, influencing the entire group's views on this matter.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Man, I should check the numbers, I don't remember what proportion of Alicorns I had put in the State of Glyphmark.

We should make an index somewhere of the "significant" posts and discussions in this thread.

I keep meaning to get around to doing something like that, but I never actually get it done...

by Harmony Ltd. Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:56 am

Population numbers, first iteration : https://cloudsville.rpg-board.net/t976p600-fallout-equestria-setting-discussions#171808

State of Glyphmark (GM) : 55,000 (5% griffin, 20% ponies, 40% zebra, 30% other [mostly ghouls])

by Harmony Ltd. Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:58 am

Alicorns are part of the "Other" statistical category.

by Harmony Ltd. Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:37 am

Dammit, I can't find back the population estimate I had for alicorns.

If memory serves me right, I had in mind that there was between 10,000 and 20,000 Alicorns in the Wasteland at large in the year 30 SR, counting the natural born Alicorns.

And 30-40% of the Alicorn population was supposed to live in Maripony.

That still leaves, potentially, a lot of Alicorns for Glyphmark.

My idea at the time was that a large number of Alicorns would be drawn to associate with the Followers, in part because of how instrumental they were in saving their species, and in part because it's... how to put it... the faction that is the most clearly interested in making everyone's lives better and doesn't go around acting like an ass.

Given Alicorns were created and fought for so long to make the Wasteland a better place, even if in a twisted way, I'd imagine that'd be something important to them.

I was imagining that Junction City would be the Headquarter of the Followers, the city having partly grown around them there ; while Glyphmark would be the real heart of their activities.

by O. Hinds Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:24 pm

Any idea when the NCR will be developed enough to need/support a high speed rail system? I've some ideas, but I'm not sure that the NCR or Alliance are ready yet.

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