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[Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by swicked on Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:38 am

O. Hinds wrote:re zebra species creation:
Eh… It's certainly an interesting idea, and one that I wouldn't mind seeing explored elsewhere… I'm trying to decide if it can be fitted in here (either in this universe or in FoE in general), though…

Sorry, but I'm leaning towards "no".  Even ignoring my headcanon, we never hear about the Zebras deploying plagues of a brand-new species of locust against Equestrian farmland, or about long-range bomber birds with chromatophores in their feathers, or enormous tunneling beasts putting diamond dogs to shame, or giant clams that are living anti-ship mines… and that's just animals; if we expand the capability to plants, it gets even worse, to say nothing of microorganisms.  And yes, none of these things would be easy, but I cannot believe that the zebras had such a skill and never in twenty years of war applied even a fraction of their defense spending and best minds to it; even without being able to make new animals, we've IRL tried to find ways to use animals in war.  Instead, in FoE we hear about zebras making robots and enlisting the aid of preexisting species, and in PH the Brood are cyborgs.  If the zebras had been honing techniques for shaping new species on demand continuously since prehistory, why would they instead be famous for using robotics?  (Yes, IRL, people had been using swords for generations and switched to guns anyway, but here the zebras could, to continue the analogy, make swords that never dull, shoot fire, and make more of themselves, while the muskets would still be just muskets.)
Again, though, it's an interesting idea; if you end up using it or having it used in a non-FoE story, please let me know.
...
Why didn't Luna lower the moon and drown the zebra lands? Why didn't either of the pony sisters use their celestial powers to end the zebra threat forever?
Heck, for a more "delicate" touch, Luna has countless stars. She could have bombed the zebra lands in an instant and been done with it.

But yeah, in the case of the smallest fractions of the magic, I have no idea why kkat gave them alchemy and then Xenith and Zecora were the only known practitioners of it. You'd think they'd of made their soldiers all as powerful as littlepip eventually was.

Overall, though, this was just a single idea for what their relevance was with regard to the planet. They could have some other significance, but they've certainly got to have SOMETHING.

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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:45 pm

Harmony wrote:Heh. Not funny haha but funny interesting due to what it'd mean about the culture of the Republic, how it evolved and... Yeah, whatever. *throw idea in the "discarded" heap*
Sorry…

Swicked wrote:Why didn't Luna lower the moon and drown the zebra lands? Why didn't either of the pony sisters use their celestial powers to end the zebra threat forever?
Heck, for a more "delicate" touch, Luna has countless stars. She could have bombed the zebra lands in an instant and been done with it.
Well, we know that the stars are out of Luna's control, and it's quite possible that there are restrictions on what can be done with the sun and moon, too.  Equestria did, after all, think to weaponize sunfire, but they had get their R&D forces to make a megaspell for it.  Exactly how much control the Princesses had over the sun and moon was never really defined (nor was, in fact, exactly what the Princesses do to move them across the sky).  Luna might be able to mess with the tides to an extent, but that, unfortunately, is a global effect.

Swicked wrote:But yeah, in the case of the smallest fractions of the magic, I have no idea why kkat gave them alchemy and then Xenith and Zecora were the only known practitioners of it. You'd think they'd of made their soldiers all as powerful as littlepip eventually was.
Most of LittlePip's abilities did not come from alchemy.  We don't know that much (or possibly all) of what LittlePip got wasn't standard issue, as far as I can tell, and for the rest, well, not everything is cheap enough for universal deployment.
Oh, random interesting thing I stumbled across in FoE while trying to make sure that I hadn't forgotten something:
Kkat wrote:“…just found an underground research facility where ponies were attempting to apply zebra alchemical techniques to coal,” Blackwing was telling Calamity.  “It seems they were hoping to create everlasting coal.  They never succeeded, but the did manage to produce an alchemically-treated coal that burns twice as fast.  And about ten times as hot.”

Swicked wrote:They could have some other significance, but they've certainly got to have SOMETHING.
Why?
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:41 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Swicked wrote:They could have some other significance, but they've certainly got to have SOMETHING.
Why?
Because otherwise it would give the ponies a real basis on which to conceive that they are actually "special" and more important than any other species on the planet, even the sentient ones.

It would be nice if it wasn't the case, and if Equestria's speciesm was just a cultural artifact and not grounded in reality.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:24 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
Swicked wrote:They could have some other significance, but they've certainly got to have SOMETHING.
Why?
Because otherwise it would give the ponies a real basis on which to conceive that they are actually "special" and more important than any other species on the planet, even the sentient ones.

It would be nice if it wasn't the case, and if Equestria's speciesm was just a cultural artifact and not grounded in reality.
Huh... this turned into a bit of a wall of text.  I blame lack of sleep (I'm crash-changing my sleep schedule to prepare for an upcoming trip).:
But the evidence indicates that ponies are special.  Speciesism, defined as the belief that different species are significantly different in innate capabilities and limitations, is fact (this is a fault in the Equestrian speciesism=Earth racism analogy; between human races, maybe there's a slight difference in the amount of sunscreen needed, but between a unicorn and a griffin... yeah).  Moreover, ponies, at the least by virtue of where they happened to settle, where the people whom Celestia and Luna descended to; the Princesses don't have stripes.  It could possibly also have been due to the unicorns' connection to the celestial bodies (though I consider the accuracy of the Hearth's Warming Eve play debatable and am not entirely convinced that that connection existed in the first place).  And yes, no doubt unicorn supremacists have used that against not just other species but other ponies (though likely not for a while, due to the Princesses' social engineering), but, unlike with human racism, we can't attack the idea that some species/tribes/whatever are innately capable of things that others aren't; it's plainly obvious that earth ponies aren't running around using telekinesis.  What we can attack is the idea that, because, in this example, unicorns can (maybe) move the sun and moon, unicorns are superior to all other species and tribes.  Related to and partially a subset of this ("any unicorn is better than any non-unicorn") is the belief that individuals of a certain species or tribe are bound to have certain innate personality or "moral" characteristics ("Zebras are sneaky ambushers", "Diamond dogs are dumb, cruel brutes", "Griffins are bloodthirsty, inflexible jerks", etc.).  The latter is easy to disprove with counterexamples, provided that the person you're arguing with will actually look at the evidence, and the former, while slightly more difficult to defeat, runs into the same problem as "Are tigers or sharks the most fearsome predators on the planet?": niches (and the possibility that the most fearsome predator is neither a shark nor a tiger).  In the Hearth's Warming Eve tale, even when the three tribes hated each other, they were still codependent due to their differing specializations; even if unicorns could have done it all, they couldn't have done it as well.  Or, if you believe that that's a creation of the Mudflap Conspiracy dreamed up underneath the Fillydelphia Skyport, take a more modern example: computers.  "Of course it was earth ponies who came up with those poor substitutes for advanced personal spellcasting, and nopony else... a combat rowboat?  Robot?  What's that?  Oh, a terminal with guns and legs on; how cute, you're trying to make a golem!  Though... this is much cheaper..."  Or, hey, take firearms themselves.  They've not even a pony invention, and Equestria certainly took to them.  "Oh, the birds may have thought of them first, but look how much better we were with them!"  Ah, yes: the "They did it first, but we do it better" argument.  Which fits so nicely with how bypass spells were invented by zebras, who I point out do not even have horns, and how Equestria, with all its spellcasting unicorns, proceeded to roll out much better version within the mont-- Um, actually, no, proceeded to still be trying to figure out bypass spells when the bombs fell.  Doesn't fit at all, actually.  And this leads me to my final point, the reason why I'm not really troubled by thoughts that the anti-zebra speciesists might have a point: the zebras won.  A pyrrhic victory, yes, but the fact remains that a bunch of mortals went up against 1: the two goddesses of the heavens, 2: the highly skilled and motivated and well-supplied chosen people of said goddesses, and 3: a set of artifacts wielded by the champions of the goddesses and apparently being the universe's root access, albeit a self-willed one, and it ended with that bunch of mortals accomplishing what who knows how many more powerful foes (including at least a chaos god and the superpowered evil side of one of the goddesses) had failed to do.
TL;DR: There are grounds in reality for the idea that ponies are better in some ways (even if the Hearth's Warming Eve tale was 100% fabricated, the ponies are still the ones who Celestia and Luna shaped themselves in the images of and touched down in the back yard of), but the claim that they're better innately and in all ways is pretty much completely undermined by the fact that such a naturally superior lot wouldn't have lost the war.

Also, if you like Doylist arguments, the zebras (and everyone else, if I'm understanding this correctly) being just as involved in managing the world as the ponies are changes the war from an epic tale of an underdog soldiering grimly on in the face of certain defeat by the Chosen of the Divine (and then discovering that defeat, total defeat, might not be so certain after all) to a tale of that time Personnel got into into a big row with Plant Ops.  Now, granted, an armed squabble between the various departments in charge of managing a planet could be quite an interesting story, but I don't think that it's fundamentally the same sort of story.

I seems to still be rather rambly... Hopefully this post makes sense.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by swicked on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:30 pm

What Harmony said. Earth ponies take care of the earth and all of its animals. Pegasi take care of the weather and sky. Unicorns once guided the movement of celestial objects, the princesses eventually taking that part over, becoming personifications of those celestial objects.
Zebra... exist. Do they have no relevance? No purpose? Zecora contends they have some form of magic, and they have alchemy is FoE, but why?
This suddenly becomes an evolution vs. creation argument. Ponies exist in their perfected forms because they can only maintain the world together, with terrible consequences when they do not. Do zebra not have a point? Are they are simply a little smarter than the rest of the animals the ponies would otherwise care for, perhaps developing to be that way over time?
And if their lands are now rid of them, are they are no lessor for it? Because, in the absence of ponies, the equestrian wasteland will always be a wasteland and will return to being it should they not continue to work to restore it.

It is a fantasy world so, quite frankly, they need a reason to exist. In any other world they wouldn't, but in a world of myth everything of any significance has an origin story and point to its existence.

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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by swicked on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:48 pm

O. Hinds wrote:Also, if you like Doylist arguments, the zebras (and everyone else, if I'm understanding this correctly) being just as involved in managing the world as the ponies are changes the war from an epic tale of an underdog soldiering grimly on in the face of certain defeat by the Chosen of the Divine (and then discovering that defeat, total defeat, might not be so certain after all) to a tale of that time Personnel got into into a big row with Plant Ops.
Ever seen the plot of the game God of War?

The main character, Kratos, sells his soul to kill his enemies, then goes about killing innocents more than merrily until he ends up killing his own family. He then decides to kill the god of war and anyone else that stands in his way. Which turns out to be all the gods, because every one of them is necessary for the world's prolonged existence, while Kratos could die and the world would keep on spinning.
Long story short, he succeeds, and the world is now a desolate wasteland of nothing left on it. Light is gone. Plants are gone. Everything is dead and cold. Happy ending, huh?

The story doesn't become one about an underdog against the chosen one. It becomes one closer to Perseus killing Atlas, but without turning him to stone, instead watching as the sky fell and killed everyone.

So, long story short, it goes from a story in which neither side should have fought and the world was seriously damaged by both their passions, into one where the zebra should have just rolled over since, in their arrogance, they were threatening existence. I seriously have to question why every nation in the world didn't rise up to stomp out the people that thought it was okay if the sun and moon stopped orbiting (because how could they know the bodies would keep orbiting otherwise). Why even a single non-zebra would join such a people. I think both have to have that sort of significance for the world to stand back and watch with their fingers crossed (even if that didn't make much sense, either).

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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:48 pm

swicked wrote:Because, in the absence of ponies, the equestrian wasteland will always be a wasteland and will return to being it should they not continue to work to restore it.
Interesting. Where do you get that idea? It's only been two hundred years (with the GPE blocking out the sun, no less), and already, due in large part to taint, we've seen creatures adapting to the Wasteland and forming new ecosystems. I'd expect that, were the sophonts taken out of the equation and the peninsula left to run for a few million years, it would fix itself quite nicely. I mean, the planet recovered from the Eater's impact, didn't it? No ponies, zebras, princesses, or anything there at the time.

swicked wrote:It is a fantasy world so, quite frankly, they need a reason to exist. In any other world they wouldn't, but in a world of myth everything of any significance has an origin story and point to its existence.
…Ah. Sorry, then, but it looks like we have a fundamental divide here. While, according to my beliefs on the subject, the FoE universe seems different enough from ours to open up exciting things like the possible existence of actual free will, narrative causality is not among its laws of physics. (I recall a delightful story from the development of The Discworld Mapp, wherein it was related that, though the world may be borne on the backs of elephants standing on the shell of an astrochelonian, Pterry insisted that the rain shadows be accurately modeled… and that's a universe that does explicitly include narrative causality in its physics and could have gotten away with "The desert is there because the story says it should be".)
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by swicked on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:53 pm

O. Hinds wrote:actual free will
...how do you mean, sir?

O. Hinds wrote:Discworld
I really need to read the entire series. What I've read of it I've loved, but I get easily distracted.

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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:30 pm

swicked wrote:So, long story short, it goes from a story in which neither side should have fought and the world was seriously damaged by both their passions, into one where the zebra should have just rolled over since, in their arrogance, they were threatening existence.
It is the duty of a caesar to look after their people. The gemstones supplied by Equestria were a direct and significant contribution to the safety of the people of the Caesar at the time of the start of the war. Equestria was in no danger from attacks, but it had built life-sustaining infrastructure on imported coal and was running out of reserves. The situation should have been resolved peacefully. The Zebras need their pride, to know that they're not becoming just another sort of animal that Equestrian ponies are taking care of (particularly since some ponies disagree with that), but the Princesses are already goddesses. The Caesar giving in would have been seen as a weakness of himself and his people. The Princesses are already goddesses, though, and the ponies their chosen people; they do not need a great sea of pride atop everything else. The Princesses making concessions would have been seen as the goddesses still caring about the welfare of mortals, even non-ponies, and yes, while there would have been some complaints at home, what could the complainers actually do? At worst, the Princesses just wait a century for them to die off. But no. The Princesses are, after all, like fallible mortals in mindset, and they are convinced by overconfident and badly-informed to end the game of brinksmanship not by giving in but by force. If the Caesar couldn't give in to diplomatic pressure, he certainly couldn't give in to military force, and doing so would have sent a message to the world that Equestria expects a cough in your direction to be followed by the emptying of your pockets for the good of ponykind. So fighting commenced, and surely it wouldn't be a serious war. And it wasn't, at first. But the ponies had no idea what they were getting into, and they didn't stop; the zebras could have ended it quickly, back then, being much more skilled at war, but they were afraid, understandably, that that would have been seen as a too-unprovoked attack against Equestria. So the war continued, grudges built, and things started to get worse. And by the time that everyone realized what a serious war was and that this was indeed one, it was too late.

swicked wrote:I seriously have to question why every nation in the world didn't rise up to stomp out the people that thought it was okay if the sun and moon stopped orbiting (because how could they know the bodies would keep orbiting otherwise). Why even a single non-zebra would join such a people. I think both have to have that sort of significance for the world to stand back and watch with their fingers crossed (even if that didn't make much sense, either).
Why get involved if you don't have to? At first, everyone expected the zebras to win only if Equestria let them; it was either a foregone conclusion or a plot by the Princesses, and, either way, better to stay out of the mess. As for why, later, both sides swelled, I think that the reason is simple: by the time the war became unlimited, it was too late to pull out (which seems to be a running trend here). Until it became clear what Equestria was turning into, everyone assumed that the war would end in a negotiated settlement that, while better for the victor (assuming that it wasn't a tie), would at worst just be rather harsh on the loser. This is Equestria, after all, and even with their rampant pony supremacy they'd want to pat each others' backs about how well they're taking care of the poor losing side. Then everyone notices how close to rectilinear mustache territory Equestria is getting, and the people already against it decide that a victory is their only hope of coming out of the war in anything resembling a comfortable shape. Key, though, is that it still wasn't a totally unlimited war; they didn't want to kill the Princesses, just march into Canterlot and make them sign a peace treaty. It was only at the very, very end, when the zebra command realized that they were losing and soberly considered who they were losing to, that they decided that the possibility of losing the planet was better than the near-certainty of living under Equestria's cold steel horseshoe.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:36 pm

swicked wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:actual free will
...how do you mean, sir?
Oh, while I'm open to being proved wrong, I do not think that our universe or universes sufficiently like it can incorporate true free will; I do not see a place for it. I note, however, that this is academic, since we have quite good simulated free will and no true free will for it to compare unfavorably with (though the structure of that sentence is itself influenced by the simulation).

swicked wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:Discworld
I really need to read the entire series. What I've read of it I've loved, but I get easily distracted.
I quite recommend it.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by swicked on Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:42 pm

O. Hinds wrote:Key, though, is that it still wasn't a totally unlimited war; they didn't want to kill the Princesses, just march into Canterlot and make them sign a peace treaty.  It was only at the very, very end, when the zebra command realized that they were losing and soberly considered who they were losing to, that they decided that the possibility of losing the planet was better than the near-certainty of living under Equestria's cold steel horseshoe.
They both wanted, and tried to, kill one of the princesses. The "good" one, too.

And again, what you're saying is that they decided they'd rather the possibility of the sun either being stuck in the sky forever or forever set, potentially killing everyone everywhere, over being under Equestria's rule, however harsh? It's a wonder the zebra didn't have more deserters, particularly from anyone and everyone that wasn't a zebra.
I mean, what is the point of building fallout shelters at all if you expect life to come to an end, entirely?
But maybe that was just "optimism" on their part.

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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by swicked on Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:43 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
swicked wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:actual free will
...how do you mean, sir?
Oh, while I'm open to being proved wrong, I do not think that our universe or universes sufficiently like it can incorporate true free will; I do not see a place for it.  I note, however, that this is academic, since we have quite good simulated free will and no true free will for it to compare unfavorably with (though the structure of that sentence is itself influenced by the simulation).
You misunderstand, I'm a strict determinist, I was curious how this other world is different in such a way that it doesn't operate how ours does.

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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:07 pm

swicked wrote:They both wanted, and tried to, kill one of the princesses. The "good" one, too.
When?

swicked wrote:And again, what you're saying is that they decided they'd rather the possibility of the sun either being stuck in the sky forever or forever set, potentially killing everyone everywhere, over being under Equestria's rule, however harsh? It's a wonder the zebra didn't have more deserters, particularly from anyone and everyone that wasn't a zebra.
The non-zebras might have gotten off more lightly, but they'd still have been on the losing side.  And yes, that's what I'm saying.  If it's "probably die and maybe kill the planet" vs. "live, but you, your children, their children, their children, etc. until your family dies out will be worked to death in slave-labor mines", well…
And who's to say that Equestria, flush with victory and suddenly having no one to point its many many guns at, wouldn't have turned its eyes elsewhere?

swicked wrote:I mean, what is the point of building fallout shelters at all if you expect life to come to an end, entirely?
But maybe that was just "optimism" on their part.
Right.  A total planet death would be… a total planet death, but anything less than that leaves some possibility, however small, of survival and reconstruction.

swicked wrote:You misunderstand, I'm a strict determinist, I was curious how this other world is different in such a way that it doesn't operate how ours does.
Oh, sorry.  Well, it's quite possible, of course, that their universe is the same mix of determinism and randomness as ours.  They have physics that we don't, though, of particular interest here being the fact that they have actual measurable souls.  Depending on how those and the physics associated with them work, I think it's possible that they could have at least some measure of top-down authentic free will (I'm here considering authentic free will to be "the mind exists as an entity, it makes decisions, and those decisions are communicated to the brain" and simulated free will to be "the brain does stuff through the same random and deterministic processes as the rest of the universe, and the record of these actions is, for the "viewpoint character", as it were, put together with sensory input and played as a "mind" in such a way that the brain/mind order appears to be reversed".).  Basically, I think that they have sufficient different/extra physics that there exists the possibility of self-awareness as an inherent property, which would allow true conscious acts (Though… interesting idea: assuming that free will does exist here, it still doesn't necessarily do it on a personal level.  Though I suppose that that's debatable.  If a brain's mind is created by the deterministic action from its particles but those particles are themselves self-aware, is the brain's mind self-aware?  Or, conversely, since an entity may believe perceive itself as self-aware but not be, would a stone composed of conscious particles, though having no mind of its own, be considered conscious?).

Hm, and now I seem to be getting philosophical...
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:18 am

On another subject :

From my perception of it, Gawdyna Grimfeather was already in her late forties during FoE. Thirty years later, she would probably be almost eighty.

I had an idea, I don't know what it's worth, but let's share it anyway...

I was thinking that Gawdyna may have been killed during the Bitter War, the Bitters being suspected to have killed her - she was visiting soldiers on the frontline. Without having appointed an "heir", there may have been some intestine struggles to know who might replace her in the job.

I'm still thinking about that last part.


Also, PH ch. 57 introduced a bit more insight into the politics of the Enclave and the state of its society, and this leads me to believe I would have to rework a bit the whole Fall of the Enclave / Bitter War pan of the setting. If only because of how much more quickly it might collapse if everyone start giving Neighvarro the finger after the number of defeats it would have suffered (Cathedral, Neighvarro, etc...). I'm starting to believe it's more likely the Enclave would have fragmented rather than imploded, some portions eager to trade with the surface, while the others would play the role of the Bitters trying to conquer and annihilate the surface.

Trying to add a bit more depth to the whole period than just "lol nope, we just want y'all to die" (Bitters).
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by swicked on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:47 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Swicked wrote:Why didn't Luna lower the moon and drown the zebra lands? Why didn't either of the pony sisters use their celestial powers to end the zebra threat forever?
Heck, for a more "delicate" touch, Luna has countless stars. She could have bombed the zebra lands in an instant and been done with it.
Well, we know that the stars are out of Luna's control, and it's quite possible that there are restrictions on what can be done with the sun and moon, too.  Equestria did, after all, think to weaponize sunfire, but they had get their R&D forces to make a megaspell for it.  Exactly how much control the Princesses had over the sun and moon was never really defined (nor was, in fact, exactly what the Princesses do to move them across the sky).  Luna might be able to mess with the tides to an extent, but that, unfortunately, is a global effect.
By the way, this was sorta my point.
I'm not sure how, exactly, they would create a plague of locusts that was virulent-enough to be a serious threat to the ponies' food supply without risking them spread out over the world and consuming everything like... well, like parasprites.
Your other suggestions of monstrous creatures have similar faults to them. If you factor in the idea that the zebra intended for the world to end, though, then the point does become moot.

O. Hinds wrote:
swicked wrote:They both wanted, and tried to, kill one of the princesses. The "good" one, too.
When?
...am I reading what you posted wrong? I think you're saying the zebra didn't intend to kill the princesses, but there was a very clear attempt on one of their lives that they didn't even care when the "wrong" princess showed up for. In the end, they wanted them both dead, and seemingly far before the final days.

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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:08 am

Harmony Ltd. wrote:On another subject :

From my perception of it, Gawdyna Grimfeather was already in her late forties during FoE. Thirty years later, she would probably be almost eighty.

I had an idea, I don't know what it's worth, but let's share it anyway...

I was thinking that Gawdyna may have been killed during the Bitter War, the Bitters being suspected to have killed her - she was visiting soldiers on the frontline. Without having appointed an "heir", there may have been some intestine struggles to know who might replace her in the job.

I'm still thinking about that last part.


Also, PH ch. 57 introduced a bit more insight into the politics of the Enclave and the state of its society, and this leads me to believe I would have to rework a bit the whole Fall of the Enclave / Bitter War pan of the setting. If only because of how much more quickly it might collapse if everyone start giving Neighvarro the finger after the number of defeats it would have suffered (Cathedral, Neighvarro, etc...). I'm starting to believe it's more likely the Enclave would have fragmented rather than imploded, some portions eager to trade with the surface, while the others would play the role of the Bitters trying to conquer and annihilate the surface.

Trying to add a bit more depth to the whole period than just "lol nope, we just want y'all to die" (Bitters).
Interesting…

Also, it occurs to me that this might result in Las Pegasus approaching the Alliance instead of the other way around, possibly before the Miliozi make their move.  In fact, it may be that the intel provided by the defecting Las Pegasus was what convinced the Alliance to fully cease recognizing the GPE.
"Well, so much for the high and mighty Neighvarro.  Hey, you know those non-savage surfacers that Neighvarro's always told us to keep an eye on but keep hidden from our people?  Despite the fact that the surfacers seem to have ample fresh food and brand-new manufactured goods, but only minorities of pegasi and griffins?  I've got an idea…"
I like this idea!  It also means that Las Pegasus would be joining pretty much fully on their own terms, rather than being pressured into it by Elusive and the Miliozi.

swicked wrote:I'm not sure how, exactly, they would create a plague of locusts that was virulent-enough to be a serious threat to the ponies' food supply without risking them spread out over the world and consuming everything like... well, like parasprites.
Well, controls could be put in, such as, say, highly degenerate genes that cause the fifth generation to be infertile, or something.  Those could go wrong, of course, but human bioweapons manufacturers certainly haven't let things like that stop them.

swicked wrote:...am I reading what you posted wrong? I think you're saying the zebra didn't intend to kill the princesses, but there was a very clear attempt on one of their lives that they didn't even care when the "wrong" princess showed up for.
Oh, Shattered Hoof Ridge?  That looks to me like a capture, not a kill, attempt, and capturing either Princess could have brought the war to a swift, peaceful, and, at least to some degree, mutually beneficial (if tense) end.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by swicked on Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:13 am

O. Hinds wrote:
swicked wrote:I'm not sure how, exactly, they would create a plague of locusts that was virulent-enough to be a serious threat to the ponies' food supply without risking them spread out over the world and consuming everything like... well, like parasprites.
Well, controls could be put in, such as, say, highly degenerate genes that cause the fifth generation to be infertile, or something.  Those could go wrong, of course, but human bioweapons manufacturers certainly haven't let things like that stop them.
That's quite a deal more control than I would expect of them.
I was talking of literally casting creatures from clay, setting them to some form of life-giving kiln, and releasing them into the world. Something that's far more an art than a science, and denies any control of that sort. A creature's traits would be defined by how it was made (what kind of teeth it had, if it had wings or segmented eyes or was entirely blind or etc.) and whatever the magic itself would give it. The kind of thing that could only be refined over centuries.

In any case, even though this particular task is unlikely theirs, I would still insist they must have some form of relevance to their world of myth, I'm just not sure what it would be. I additionally realize this is a point we're unlikely to agree on, since you don't feel such a relevance is necessary.

O. Hinds wrote:
swicked wrote:...am I reading what you posted wrong? I think you're saying the zebra didn't intend to kill the princesses, but there was a very clear attempt on one of their lives that they didn't even care when the "wrong" princess showed up for.
Oh, Shattered Hoof Ridge?  That looks to me like a capture, not a kill, attempt, and capturing either Princess could have brought the war to a swift, peaceful, and, at least to some degree, mutually beneficial (if tense) end.
Right, I entirely forgot Somber re-wrote that canon. Not sure how they'd keep a princess hostage but, hey, if a changeling could do it, why not a zebra?

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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:35 am

swicked wrote:That's quite a deal more control than I would expect of them.
I was talking of literally casting creatures from clay, setting them to some form of life-giving kiln, and releasing them into the world. Something that's far more an art than a science, and denies any control of that sort. A creature's traits would be defined by how it was made (what kind of teeth it had, if it had wings or segmented eyes or was entirely blind or etc.) and whatever the magic itself would give it. The kind of thing that could only be refined over centuries.
That art could be studied, though, have science (and the known zebra skill at alchemy) applied to it.

swicked wrote:In any case, even though this particular task is unlikely theirs, I would still insist they must have some form of relevance to their world of myth, I'm just not sure what it would be. I additionally realize this is a point we're unlikely to agree on, since you don't feel such a relevance is necessary.
Yeah. We can agree to disagree, though; no need to fight to the death over differing headcanons. :)

swicked wrote:Right, I entirely forgot Somber re-wrote that canon. Not sure how they'd keep a princess hostage but, hey, if a changeling could do it, why not a zebra?
Well, they were able to temporarily incapacitate one, and we know from Canterlot that they could kill one. Containment capability isn't too unlikely. And, if the Princess in question was Celestia, they might not even need to contain her.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:41 am

I'll note that the Alliance controlling an SPP tower might give them more or less direct access to its intelligence gathering capabilities and that of the whole SPP network if their tower isn't "firewalled" from the rest of it.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:07 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:I'll note that the Alliance controlling an SPP tower might give them more or less direct access to its intelligence gathering capabilities and that of the whole SPP network if their tower isn't "firewalled" from the rest of it.
Would they? I hadn't thought of that.
[checks map]
Hm, yes, there is a tower within the area taken by the Miliozi. As you say, though, not sure if it would still be on the network.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:14 pm

Well, that's a possibility for interesting politics for Littlepip to take part in :

NCR : "Cut the Alliance from the network, plz ?"
Alliance : "We are only making sure that the NCR isn't preparing something against us, can you blame us ?"


Also... On the other hand the NCR might tolerate the Alliance spying on them from the SPP towers, if only as a guarantee of goodwill. And depending on their mood, the Alliance could even accept to be spied back from its own tower(s).


Overall, I think Littlepip would want the SPP to stay "neutral", and not directly linked to the NCR, the Alliance, or any power beside herself. It's possible she would firewall EVERYONE from the SPP network.


Thoughts ?
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:28 pm

Not relevant to the discussion at hand, but I think it would get lost on the chat thread so I'll put it here...

This may be an interesting case study for the effects of energy weapons :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski

TL;DR : guy get his head bored through by a particle beam, survive with almost no sequels
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:45 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Not relevant to the discussion at hand, but I think it would get lost on the chat thread so I'll put it here...

This may be an interesting case study for the effects of energy weapons :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski

TL;DR : guy get his head bored through by a particle beam, survive with almost no sequels
Wow, interesting.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:47 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Well, that's a possibility for interesting politics for Littlepip to take part in :

NCR : "Cut the Alliance from the network, plz ?"
Alliance : "We are only making sure that the NCR isn't preparing something against us, can you blame us ?"


Also... On the other hand the NCR might tolerate the Alliance spying on them from the SPP towers, if only as a guarantee of goodwill. And depending on their mood, the Alliance could even accept to be spied back from its own tower(s).


Overall, I think Littlepip would want the SPP to stay "neutral", and not directly linked to the NCR, the Alliance, or any power beside herself. It's possible she would firewall EVERYONE from the SPP network.


Thoughts ?
I expect that LittlePip probably would want to keep everyone else out, yes, just in case. If anyone wants something from it, they could ask her.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:19 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:Not relevant to the discussion at hand, but I think it would get lost on the chat thread so I'll put it here...

This may be an interesting case study for the effects of energy weapons :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski

TL;DR : guy get his head bored through by a particle beam, survive with almost no sequels
Wow, interesting.
Proton beam = jet of relativistic hyper-heated hydrogen plasma

He didn't turn into green goo after all. Spike


You know how they cut centimeters thick steel plates just with high pressure water jets mixed with a bit of microscopic sand ? Well, turn that shit up to 10^11 and that what that guy got into his face.

SCIENCE!
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:56 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Kattlarv wrote:Like that the males of the Enclave "make a sacrifice", they don't do shit, and it doesn't really do shit. If they would stay at home and hoof, wing and lingate (made that word up as there's no counterpart to "fellate") the mares and neglect their own pleasure, only satisfy the mares to help them with the SLIGHT/overall increase in arousal. (we don't become braindead sex dolls, even if I can't relate to a mare's heat, it shouldn't be too different as they are also SENTIENT, and heck, even our earth mares crave orgasm, not just out to pleasure the male), THEN they would be doing shit at least, enduring something. (or heck, sterilize every single male after they've had a foal, as they're only allowed to have one anyhow. Or even the females, males are generally much easier though.) Not fly off to fuck elsewhere while giving 0 fucks to the mares in heat. As of now, all they do is leave the females to at what most could be a big lesbian orgy. Since just because you remove a male partner from a female, it's not like their hard-on dies down. We have sexual needs too you know.
This is obviously sexist, but I put that down to the GPE, not Somber.  Also, given that the GPE promotes homosexuality, those lesbian orgies could be intentional.  This does, though, have some interesting implications for the integration of former GPE citizens into post-SR societies…  I think that I'll repost this bit to the headcanon thread, actually.
I hadn't thought of this before, but the legacy of such practices likely would affect integration.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:06 pm

Las Pegasus wouldn't be required to itself integrate, since it's an independent member state of the Alliance, but Las Pegasus citizens operating in other areas of the Alliance would have to work with the fact that such dividing of the sexes is not the Alliance's modus operandi (I'm not sure if any of the minor powers engage in it, but the Miliozi, the Elusive Company, Profectum, and Gibhalter don't).
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:24 pm

swicked wrote:As I posted before, I see it sorta like how females are forced to cover themselves in Islamic society. In the Enclave, males are held responsible for the lack of control of females, so they are sent away for a week on long-range recon. Long-range recon implying less hospitable environments at or beyond the edge of enclave territory, possibly even dangerously so. Honestly, some soldiers might not even come home from it... and nearly every male is sent away to do this every year.
In any case, I interpret it as the Enclave's society to be terribly sexist, not a sign of sexism without Somber's writing. It makes them kind of interesting as well as even easier to dislike.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by swicked on Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:32 pm

Son of a shogun... I meant sexism WITHIN Somber's writing!

I read my posts through twice before submitting them and I still miss this sort of crap.
Ugh! >_>

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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by swicked on Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:15 pm

I thought I'd post my favorite, and longest-held, headcanon in the thread. Specifically, what I think happened to Rainbow Dash.
What kkat wrote:
“Pinkie Pie?” Rainbow Dash’s voice floated up from the monitor.  I shifted back to see the rather bedraggled cyan pegasus walking into the basement.  The security camera zoomed in, following her.  “You here?”

“Pinkie Pie?” she tried again, sounding so small in the vast room.  “I brought them, just like you asked.  What’s this about?”

Her words echoed off the walls.  The light of hope in her wide eyes slowly diminished.

Rainbow Dash stopped a few yards in front of the shield, the magical light painting shadows across her features as she looked around.  “You weren’t kidding about the health potions, by the way.  I’m down to my last one, and I still need to make it out of that pink stew outside.  That stuff is… awful.”

The room remained still and silent.  The light in her eyes went out entirely, her expression becoming painfully sad.  “You’re not here, are you?” Rainbow Dash asked the emptiness around her.  “I guess that means you didn’t make it either.”

Rainbow Dash stepped solemnly through the shield.  She walked up to the little pedestal sitting at its center and the memory orb box resting upon it, its lid slightly ajar.  Rainbow Dash nudged it open with her nose, revealing three memory orbs and spaces for three more.  The second, third and fifth were missing.

“I don’t know what you needed these for, or who this Littlepip you mentioned in your note is, but I hope it’s as important as you said it is,” Rainbow Dash frowned, her voice soft and sad.  She reached into her saddle bags and pulled a memory orb out with her teeth, gently setting it in the spot reserved for the butterfly orb.

“Wasn’t easy getting these things, especially with Gilda on my tail.  But even she isn’t brave enough to follow me into what’s become of Canterlot.  Much less my own Ministry.”  She put the star orb into its resting place.  “But she’s waiting for me out there, and after that pink crap, I’m not sure I can take her.”  

Rainbow Dash fished the final memory orb, the one to be placed in the holder with her own cutie mark.  She paused, staring at the little emblem of the cloud and its rainbow lightning bolt.  Then sighed and put the orb into its place.  

Rainbow Dash shifted her attention to the orb in the fourth holder.  The balloon orb.  “But I trust you.  You know that.  You said this was important, and I believe you  And I wouldn’t leave my friend hanging.  Even… even after she was…”  the last word was barely a whisper, “…gone.”  

A single tear trailed down her cheek as she gave a weary smirk.  “One last prank, right?  Together as always.”  

She lifted a hoof and pressed the orb box closed, the click of the lock loud in the sepulcher room.

I reached out and touched the monitor screen, tears welling in my own eyes.

Rainbow Dash turned and started to walk away.  As she reached the inside of the shield, she stopped.  Her face screwed up with determination.

“But you know what, Pinkie?  Since you’re not here, I’m changing the rules.”  Rainbow Dash spun around and trotted over to the maneframe on the far side of the shielded area.  “If somepony comes poking around in here, I want to know.  I’m setting an alarm to go off in every Ministry of Awesome hub.  If I’m still alive, I want to meet this Littlepip of yours.”  

Dash paused.  “Sorry Pinks,” she said, looking back over her shoulder.  “I hope you don’t mind.”  

I watched the rest of the recording in stunned, comprehending silence.
What I wrote:
I looked at the door leading out to the pink stew with no small amount of apprehension. At a flat out dive through the stuff it’d taken me two health potions just to be able to move again, and now I only had one left and the MoA had nothing in regard to healing. Lots of this covert crap, but I had a feeling the massive cloud of poison couldn’t really be fooled by a couple high-end invisibility spells.
And then there’d still be Gilda.
“Gezz, Pinkie... could we of stopped this? Is there something I could have done? I know we all ragged on you about your mentats abuse but, honestly, you were still trying your hardest to save everyone, just like the rest of us, up until... sniff... the end.”
I just fell on my butt and sniffed a little. I’d never cry. Not ever. But... for the first time... I felt old. Really, really old. My friends were probably all dead. Pinkie, Applejack, Rarity, Twilight, Fluttershy... oh gosh, and I hope Spike was still okay. I mean, I could spend the rest of my life looking for them, hoping they’d survived somehow, but... I’m just not going to live that long. I just can’t go back out there. What am I going to do? Reaching into a side compartment of my power armor I got out the little audio recording Pinkie had had delivered to me with the note pleading I come down here. I slot it into my pipbuck. At least I’d get to hear my best friend for a few more minutes before... well, the inevitable.
“Cheer up, Dashie!”
I could almost smile. Instead, I closed my eyes, trying to remember her bouncing pink face barely a hair’s width away from mine. She never really did grasp the concept of personal space.
“Hi Pinks.”
“Now, I know everything sucks right now, but believe me, it’ll get better, I Pinkie Pie Promise!” she sang out in that sing-song voice of hers.
I smiled a little. Just for her. It was nice, pretending she was still here, if only for a few more minutes.
“SO! You put the memory orbs in the case, right? Littlepip’s gonna get a kick out of those. Now I bet you’re wondering ‘What do I do now, Pinkie? Everything’s all screwed up!’.”
“You could say that again.” I replied, chuckling. The audio recording skipped.
“’What do I do now, Pinkie? Everything’s all screwed up!’ Well, I got this great idea. Something I KNOW you’re gonna love.”
“What’s that?” I asked, ruefully. I knew she wasn’t there, but... well, I was pretending she was, and it’d be rude not to make the occasional reply, right?
“Kay, so, over in your MoA-approved Judiciously Unified, Numerically Cataloged pile 6 is a special long-range broadcaster your sneaky sneak guys developed, right?
“Yeah, the radio cone. It allowed for directed broadcasts over long distances so that we could either transmit propaganda messages over selected areas of the zebra empire or just send out general interference into an area without affecting our own radios.”
“Yes, yes, I’m sure you know the one I’m talking about. Now, what I think you should do is use it.”
“Wha?”
“You remember those books you used to love? The ones about Daring Do? Well, with all the fire down there... it’s not gonna be too much longer before stories about heroes are going to be in short supply. And ponies are gonna need em, Dashie. They’re gonna need ‘em bad.”
“Pinkie, I don’t have any of those books up here with me, though. I mean, I’ve PRACTICALLY memorized them, but that doesn’t mean I can recall them from memory word for word! I’m not Twilight, for crying out loud...”
“Set your transmitter for Tenpony Tower and the radio hub in the MoAS at its top. Nobody will be listening yet... but they will be, before long. Please do this, Dashie. You don’t know what it’ll mean to them.”
“I guess I could try and remember... heh, I could even throw in a few stories of my own, huh? Rainbow Dash and Daring Doo... Rainbow Doo?” *snort* “Hahaha, yeah, no. Daring Dash? I mean, I’d need a pseudonym anyway... I doubt anypony would be too happy listening to one of the mares that caused... all of this...” *sniff*
“That’s the spirit, Dashie! I knew you could do it! I believe in you! And... well, I have to be going now, okay? The recorder’s almost out. Just remember your friends, Dashie. We’ll always be with you.”
“I know, Pinkie. I know...” I replied, suddenly feeling very alone.
“...oh! And one more thing: bless you! *click*”
“What do you... ahhh CHOO!” I sneezed, a cloud of dust kicking up. Blinking through the haze I could only wonder how... oh, right. Pinkie Pie.
It only took me a little while to find the broadcaster, even if it took for-freaking-ever to get it all set up and working... darn unicorn manual writers... zeroing in on my broadcast target was easy enough, though. The MoA had plenty of junk around for tracking broadcasts and the Tenpony Tower station was already running an oddly uplifting emergency broadcast on loop, even if no one was at the controls.
“Duck... and cover! Duck... and cover!”
Checking out my rations, I figured I only had a few days’ worth left, if I could even last that long. I’d been feeling worse and worse... my lungs burning and the occasional bloody cough. Even my voice was messed up, a bit deeper and more gravely, like I had a cold. Heh, I almost sounded like a buck, for crying out loud. I guess even healing potions couldn’t completely protect from that pink mess outside. Taking small sips of my last potion every few hours seemed to help, but it was growing worse and I no longer had any doubt I wouldn’t have made it back up to the clouds.
I clicked on the broadcaster and my pipbuck recorder. When I was done I could set it on repeat just to make sure those ponies down there heard the lot as many times as possible. The power cell on these pipbucks are supposed to be near-infinite, right?
“Ahem... Greetings, everypony! You’re listening to the adventures of me, Daring Dash!”
...heh, you know what? Pinkie was right.
This was going to be AWESOME!!!
What I wrote before what I wrote above:
You’re listening to the adventures of me, Daring Dash, and my ghoul mare-servant, Quilt!
Today’s episode:
Daring Dash and the Zebra Clash!

Daring Dash: Well, Quilt, there certainly are some clear skies today!
Quilt: What are ya talkin’ about, Daring? These clouds are nearly as thick as I am!
Daring Dash: Ha, good one, my malodorous mare-servant! I meant that, for once, nobody seems to be shooting at us.
Quilt: Oy, nock on wood, Daring. I need another bullet wound like I need a hole in the head. *BANG* Ow! Speak of the devil!
Daring Dash: Right you are, Quilt, old chum! Look down there, it’s that zebra fiend, X!
Quilt: You’d think she could be a little more creative with her nicknames, huh? Uh oh, my lock-on belt is going off!
Daring Dash: Oh deary, yes, it looks like that striped swine is hefting a surface to air missile and X is marking our spot!
Quilt: I think it’s about time for some evasive maneuvers, boss.
Daring Dash: Right you are! While I perform my signature filly flash, fly down there and give her what for, eh? Here I go!
Boom! Wow! Sparkle! Crash boom bang!
X: Oh, it’s so beautiful, even my evil zebra sensibilities are no match for Daring’s astounding acrobatic abilities!
Quilt: Right you are, buddy. Judo chop!
Daring Dash: Haha, how do you like that, you rapscallion rotter? I hope she didn’t give you any trouble...
Quilt: It was a piece of cake, boss; I think this mare’s got the hots for you.
Daring Dash: And who wouldn’t! Come along now, though, we have to get her back to the tower for interrogation. If the zebra have gotten their hands on ordinance as heavy as that SAM, we’re in for a lot of trouble!
X: You already are, darling. My stallions are already getting into position. By the time you get me back to the tower it’ll already be too late!
Daring Dash: Too late for what, you fastidiously felonious filly fiend?!
X: That’s for me to know and you to find out, darling...

Stay tuned for the next episode of Daring Dash, the Return of the Zebra, coming soon to airwaves near you!

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