[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Vergil wrote:Sorry, but I find her so over the top malicious at this point I don't know how Somber's going to make me feel bad about the whole situation.

Vex already covered how I feel about Trixie, but remember that there are still three other minds in there. Twilight is the Goddess too, and that's instant tragedy from what we've seen. (Personally, I think Twilight thoughts being captive kind of waters down the Goddess- or does the opposite, in that it makes her less of a gestalt. That Twilight's own negative, overeacting and overachieving qualities contributed to the Goddess just as much as Trixie. Still, I accept it and don't really mind.) And besides Twilight, there's two others. We don't know much about Gestalt and Mosaic, but given Trixie's extremes in the direction of evil and Twilight's extremes in good, I don't think it's farfetched to place the twins in the middle of the morality spectrum. And if that's the case... well, that sucks. They would probably be as innocent as you could get with a high ranking ministry official, but they're stuck between Trixie and Twilight.

Do the three representatives communicate? If they do, do they make demands or requests? Would the twins have to put up with constant demands from Trixie to obey or imploring requests from Twilight to do better? Stuck in the middle of the most powerful creation of wartime Equestria, probably feeling powerless besides, just two sisters who want to live their own life for once but unable. Even if they could somehow pull themselves from Unity, how could they get out from under two paragons?

But maybe I read too much into this.

I'm calling bullshit on the 'every villain has a tragic backstory' thing. I think Somber wants to give us reasons why these people do horrific things. Sometimes that means showing a part of the character in question that we can sympathize with. Sympathizing with someone is acknowledging their emotional hardships, which is part of understanding them. All Somber is doing is trying to get his readers to understand all her characters.

In other words, this is the Wasteland. Everyone has a tragic backstory!

Derpmind wrote:I'm calling bullshit on the 'every villain has a tragic backstory' thing. I think Somber wants to give us reasons why these people do horrific things. Sometimes that means showing a part of the character in question that we can sympathize with. Sympathizing with someone is acknowledging their emotional hardships, which is part of understanding them. All Somber is doing is trying to get his readers to understand all her characters.

In other words, this is the Wasteland. Everyone has a tragic backstory!

Agree. There are some outright sadists and psychopaths and ponies who just aren't intelligent enough to figure right from wrong (and various combinations thereof), but the big bads tend to have an element of tragedy because one-sided characters aren't generally as interesting or realistic.

Does anybody remember the chapter where we're introduced to Gestalt and Mosaic? I can't seem to recall from the 1000000+ words so far haha. Although in retrospect I dig the characters' names as totally appropriate within the context of Unity.

Heading back to ATL tonight, but a shout-out to the (two) bronies I met in Oklahoma City yesterday! Glad y'all are okay.

Oh, and on the subject of enemies and their histories...remember Brass? I was so happy that BJ got to kill an unrepentant monster. Until the very end... :(

Protip: It never ends

Kippershy wrote:Protip: It never ends

B-but... I want to get off this wild ride!

Mr Bones sees your application for dismissal from the wild ride and denies it.
Back on you get.

Walker006 wrote:Does anybody remember the chapter where we're introduced to Gestalt and Mosaic? I can't seem to recall from the 1000000+ words so far haha. Although in retrospect I dig the characters' names as totally appropriate within the context of Unity.

I know it's in the original FoE and not Horizons, and it was in Canterlot. Uh... for more than that you'll have to wait for Silentcarto.

Meleagridis wrote:

Walker006 wrote:Does anybody remember the chapter where we're introduced to Gestalt and Mosaic? I can't seem to recall from the 1000000+ words so far haha. Although in retrospect I dig the characters' names as totally appropriate within the context of Unity.

I know it's in the original FoE and not Horizons, and it was in Canterlot. Uh... for more than that you'll have to wait for Silentcarto.

As far as I can tell, it's Chapter 37 where they first appear, first as paintings and name placards, then in the research logs, and then in the Trixie memory.

thatguyvex wrote:Think I'm in the camp of liking Goldenblood. I rather like an antagonist who isn't really a direct antagonist. He isn't something that Blackjack can just shove a gun into and pull the trigger until problem solved; he's an already dead (?) pony whose every action set shit in motion that lead to Blackjack's current issues, but she can't even rage properly at him because he's not there to even yell at. I saw him as a pretty clever way to do a villain for a character like Blackjack, who basically gets things done via direct confrontation, whereas with Goldenblood... there really isn't anything to confront. He's already done all the things; set up his plan A-Z. All Blackjack can do is damage control and try to figure things out to reverse whatever his plan is.

I do have a thing for tragic antagonists myself. Might be part of why I like PH.

Exactly. The dynamic between him and Blackjack is what keeps me readin'. Though, I'm pretty sure he's living in a hyperbaric chamber in a base on the moon, along all the hopes and dreams of ponykind.

I don't always enjoy tragic antagonists, but when I do they're written like Goldenblood..... and put in the form of this tired, old reference to a beer commercial.

Icy Shake wrote:
As far as I can tell, it's Chapter 37 where they first appear, first as paintings and name placards, then in the research logs, and then in the Trixie memory.

Thanks a lot! Found it and reread that section.
Whenever I think I'm starting to empathize with Goldenblood I always remember that one discussion with Trottenheimer. "I meant ten thousand tonnes of moonstone. At optimal ratio." He was interested in just blowing up the world if things didn't go his way!
Ugh can't wait for the next chapter :)

I'm on the fence about Goldenblood. While I haven't re-read PH yet Goldy first came off as a person who existed to take the blame for the underhandness, corruption, and outright insanity of the Mane 6 during FoE as well as being relatively sue-ish. The relationship with Fluttershy really didn't help things.

The thing is I don't really understand Goldenblood. He is definitely ruthless and pragmatic in how he tries to ensure the survival of his country, but on the other hand he also was willing to destroy it. He grew up amongst the Zebras so he would know the myths surrounding Luna and their inability to tell Luna and Nightmare Moon apart. Did he think the Zebras would purge Equestria since it was headed by their version of Satan? He doesn't seem like the person who would try to wipe out the whole world in a "taking you with me" gesture. He would do something far more localized if he wanted to.

He has some sympathetic points and humanizing elements,I particularity liked his calculated nature it was a nice counter-point to the... idealism of the mane 6, but I just don't know what to make of him. He seems like the person who tried his hardest to keep everything together, even at great expense to himself, but had no real power at all when it really mattered.

Goldenblood is complicated. He was clearly very capable, but he also failed miserably and helped push the things he wanted to protect to the brink of destruction. One of his problems is his conflicting motivations. He wants a lot of things, and they seem to interfere with one another - loyalty to Luna and others, willingness to manipulate others because he thinks he knows best, the desire for peace, a strong anti-corruption streak, a sense of self-importance that makes him try to do everything himself and ignore the rules. His problem is that he's neither perfect nor infallible, if you ask me, and he acted like he was. He thinks he can do almost anything, and is willing to do just that. Again, though, there's more to it than that. He is complicated.

thatguyvex wrote:Think I'm in the camp of liking Goldenblood. I rather like an antagonist who isn't really a direct antagonist. He isn't something that Blackjack can just shove a gun into and pull the trigger until problem solved; he's an already dead (?) pony whose every action set shit in motion that lead to Blackjack's current issues, but she can't even rage properly at him because he's not there to even yell at. I saw him as a pretty clever way to do a villain for a character like Blackjack, who basically gets things done via direct confrontation, whereas with Goldenblood... there really isn't anything to confront. He's already done all the things; set up his plan A-Z. All Blackjack can do is damage control and try to figure things out to reverse whatever his plan is.

That's really insightful, thank you! I agree that all this makes Goldie a remarkably complex villain despite being... well, let's call it "missing" for the past two centuries.

thatguyvex wrote:She comes from a pony that, after going through a living hell as a destitute hooker, somehow managed to claw her way back to a semi-normal life...

It's unlikely that was a literal memory, given that Twilight and Psalm appeared in dream versions of the Library and Chapel respectively. I think it seemed more like a nightmare, a projection of her fear of the utter failure at life. Just a vision that represented Trixie's feelings of worthlessness.

Meleagridis wrote:And besides Twilight, there's two others. We don't know much about Gestalt and Mosaic, but given Trixie's extremes in the direction of evil and Twilight's extremes in good, I don't think it's farfetched to place the twins in the middle of the morality spectrum. And if that's the case... well, that sucks. They would probably be as innocent as you could get with a high ranking ministry official, but they're stuck between Trixie and Twilight.

I get the impression that they are either too wrapped up in communing with the rest of the Unity to really influence the Goddess, or else they form the psychic foundation but are otherwise just as subordinate to Trixie's will as the rest of the alicorns.

Meleagridis wrote:

Walker006 wrote:Does anybody remember the chapter where we're introduced to Gestalt and Mosaic? I can't seem to recall from the 1000000+ words so far haha.

I know it's in the original FoE and not Horizons, and it was in Canterlot. Uh... for more than that you'll have to wait for Silentcarto.

Good plan!

Icy Shake wrote:As far as I can tell, it's Chapter 37 where they first appear, first as paintings and name placards, then in the research logs, and then in the Trixie memory.

Icy Shake apparently has the Sneak and Melee Weapons skills at 80, because she clearly has the Ninja perk. Yeah, it was chapter 37. We never "met" them per se -- Pip just saw their office and portraits, read some logs that talked about them, and saw Twilight mention them in the Star Orb.

SilentCarto wrote:It's unlikely that was a literal memory, given that Twilight and Psalm
appeared in dream versions of the Library and Chapel respectively. I
think it seemed more like a nightmare, a projection of her fear of the
utter failure at life. Just a vision that represented Trixie's feelings
of worthlessness.

Hmm, I coulda swore there were hints somewhere else to Trixie working as a prostitute outside of that scene though, both in PH and the original FoE. Been so long since I read the original I can't remember exactly, and I vaguely recall a scene where Blackjack was talking with some figment of Twilight where Twilight said something about taking advantage of Trixie just after Trixie had gotten her life back together. You could be right that it could've been a nightmare vision rather than a literal memory, but the way its written, I don't know, it just didn't strike me that way.

I do remember the texts of at least the original story strongly suggesting that Trixie was turning tricks for a little cash.

thatguyvex wrote:Hmm, I coulda swore there were hints somewhere else to Trixie working as a prostitute outside of that scene though, both in PH and the original FoE. Been so long since I read the original I can't remember exactly, and I vaguely recall a scene where Blackjack was talking with some figment of Twilight where Twilight said something about taking advantage of Trixie just after Trixie had gotten her life back together. You could be right that it could've been a nightmare vision rather than a literal memory, but the way its written, I don't know, it just didn't strike me that way.

StoneSlinger88 wrote:I do remember the texts of at least the original story strongly suggesting that Trixie was turning tricks for a little cash.

I'll admit you could read it that way if you were so inclined, but it's not clear. In FOE she only mentioned taking "unpleasant jobs", which could include anything from prostitution to rock farming to sewer work, and the message she left for the milkman at her cottage didn't seem to imply that she was paying with anything other than bits.

In PH, Twilight's Regret did say she took advantage of Trixie just after she'd clawed her life back together, but that still jibes with the Star Orb -- Trixie said that her entertainment business fell apart and she had to take "unpleasant jobs", then the war started and people stopped caring about her reputation. I admit it's partly my own preference not to think she fell that low, but the Trixie we see in the Star Orb still had a hint of the G&PT's pride about her. She hadn't been as completely broken as the mare we saw in Lacunae's head. And naturally not, since that was only a part of her -- the part that believed in her own worthlessness.


On another topic, Equestria Girls suggests some interesting facts. It indicates beyond the shadow of a doubt that Equestria is part of a larger multiverse of possibilities. In one such universe, Twilight completed Starswirl's spell and became an alicorn. In another... who knows?
Point being, Equestria Girls makes FOE canon. Or at least, potentially canon...

SilentCarto wrote:On another topic, Equestria Girls suggests some interesting facts. It indicates beyond the shadow of a doubt that Equestria is part of a larger multiverse of possibilities. In one such universe, Twilight completed Starswirl's spell and became an alicorn. In another... who knows?
Point being, Equestria Girls makes FOE canon. Or at least, potentially canon...

The existence of multiple worlds that have strange parallels is not proof of a multiverse where every possible world exists. Good troll though, 6/10.

Derpmind wrote:

SilentCarto wrote:On another topic, Equestria Girls suggests some interesting facts. It indicates beyond the shadow of a doubt that Equestria is part of a larger multiverse of possibilities. In one such universe, Twilight completed Starswirl's spell and became an alicorn. In another... who knows?
Point being, Equestria Girls makes FOE canon. Or at least, potentially canon...

The existence of multiple worlds that have strange parallels is not proof of a multiverse where every possible world exists. Good troll though, 6/10.

And if it were, it would be much more relevant to, say, My Little Denarians, which actually utilizes the concept.

I actually live in a Ponyverse multiverse. Where's my paycheck, Hasbro?

Derpmind wrote:The existence of multiple worlds that have strange parallels is not proof of a multiverse where every possible world exists.

I did say "potentially".

Icy Shake wrote:And if it were, it would be much more relevant to, say, My Little Denarians, which actually utilizes the concept.

I'd prefer to say Dresden Fillies, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I edit it. Though I'll grant that DF places the path to Equestria in the Nevernever rather than beyond the Outer Gates.
Speaking of which, how's that particular canon working out for ya these days?

SilentCarto wrote:

Derpmind wrote:The existence of multiple worlds that have strange parallels is not proof of a multiverse where every possible world exists.

I did say "potentially".

Icy Shake wrote:And if it were, it would be much more relevant to, say, My Little Denarians, which actually utilizes the concept.

I'd prefer to say Dresden Fillies, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I edit it. Though I'll grant that DF places the path to Equestria in the Nevernever rather than beyond the Outer Gates.
Speaking of which, how's that particular canon working out for ya these days?

I'm afraid that I have to say that I have literally no idea what you mean in the last sentence. I guess it's been too long since it ended for me to zero in on a particular point you could be talking about relating to the difference between its (Pony) canonicity early and late, and I've read neither The Dresden Fillies nor The Dresden Files, and so am unable to make a relative or absolute judgement regarding either.

Icy Shake wrote:I'm afraid that I have to say that I have literally no idea what you mean in the last sentence. I guess it's been too long since it ended for me to zero in on a particular point you could be talking about relating to the difference between its (Pony) canonicity early and late, and I've read neither The Dresden Fillies nor The Dresden Files, and so am unable to make a relative or absolute judgement regarding either.

Oh, well, never mind then.

First off, this kinda treatment would make anything sound ridiculous. This isn't a parody at all, since you could do the exact same thing to practically any written story ever. That said, this is funny, and who(m)ever put it together obviously put plenty of effort into it.

I didn't remember the first chapter to be so explicit.

Did it get edited since the last time I read it (~ march 2012) ?

(from the FoE setting thread)

Harmony Ltd. wrote:"We've known a few goddesses. We were once ruled by a pair of them. They used to rise the sun and moon every day and every night. 'They got blasted to hell, as with everyone else. One managed to claw back to her useless life, though. She's living with the Lightbringer now.

Then there was that other so-called Goddess... a real pest that one. Turned everyone into freaks. *get glared upon by the alicorn crew member on the bridge* Though the Lightbringer managed to blow her up, too.

Then there was that guy who wanted to become like that other goddess. Tried to trick the Lightbringer into ascending with him. She blasted him, too.

Oh, and you can't forget the two deities the crazy old mare crushed by launching the moon at them. Good times, once the atmosphere's got back to a tolerable temperature...

... Anyway, what were you saying about your God-King or whatever ?"

Harmony Ltd. wrote:^ Cpt. Splendid Dusk, of the Alliance Star Ship "Radiant Dawn"

He took from his great-grandmother school of diplomacy.


....

You know, it's hard to come up with a name that's trying to show lineage but which doesn't turn into a mouthful.

That one should be easy to guess.

You know, I was just imagining BlackJack in her being officially Queen of the Society and trying to act like it.... Dealing with foreign dignitaries...

I laughed out loud.

"I'm going to stick my quantum harmonizer in your photonic resonation chamber!"

"Yeah? Up yours too buddy!"

1 : "This is highly illogical."

2 : "I blame my lineage."

3 : "You can't blame literally everything on you lineage, Dusk."

2 : "Glowy eyes...."

3 : "I retract my statement."

(the funniest part is that technically he'd be Royalty, too. XD )

Holy crap.
I just started playing Dead Money on Hardcore for the first time. Holy crap. I can't help but think of this as "Canterlot Mode" now.