[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Mech wrote:Finally have some images for you guys.

Ah their expressions turned out exactly how I thought they might look - splendid as always, sir.


@now for something completely different
As some of you are most likely aware, there's a TwilightxHuman doujin floating around out there. How is this related to PH in any way? Well someone linked to a translated version of it, and the title is "Mariponi". Tell me that isn't at least a little bit of an amusing coincidence.

Mech wrote:Finally have some images for you guys.

awesome as always!
Blackjack is best pony

Valikdu wrote:It's just the somethingawful style. Bring up valid points while generally acting like an asshole, accentuating the negative and swearing a lot.

The fact that the assholery was intentional doesn't change the fact that the chart is immature and assholish rather than a valid argument.

You have a valid argument however, actually worth the time to contest!

Super mutants were near-extinct in FO2, now there's tons of them.

There was as reasonable an explanation for their presence as for any other enemy in the wasteland, and they were extensively worked into the background and what there was a of the mood and politics of the setting. They weren't something just shoved in as a reference (the way many bits of F2 were), and they weren't lifted whole cloth from the older games (the east coast super mutants are clearly a different type of creature, to the point where I wonder if they'd be called the same without the BoS influence). Would you prefer that the renamed them? Or that they carefully avoided using anything in the "big formerly human monsters changed by FEV" archetype just because those existed in previous games?

The Enclave was completely crippled after FO2, but they somehow still exist and have made great technological advances.

They were crippled decades ago, and the only people watching for their return were across the continent. You expect to blow up one oil tanker and completely eradicate an entire philosophy forever? The tech comes from devices and schematics that would inevitably have been carried by agents outside of the main base or stashed off-site for just such an occurrence, combined with their being the only group in the Wasteland interested in actually learning and developing new technology instead of trying to get scraps of the old world running again (though they don't have armor as good as the advanced models from the western Enclave, as some things have been lost in the transfer). President Eden did feel like an ass-pull though.

What is the BoS even doing on the east coast and why are they completely different now?

Fully explained several times in story. The Brotherhood sent parties all across the continent in order to recover technology, including to the Capital. Upon arriving, seeing the super mutant situation and the plight of the locals, the Elder in charge reinterpreted the Oath to include defending humanity while stockpiling technology, instead of screwing the locals over now in order to save the world at some unspecified time in the distant future. Just like Steelhooves in Kkat's story, or the Thunderhead Enclave in Somber's.

These seem to boil down to the same two basic complaints that I've heard about the newer games from thousands of fans of the older ones: either "something's different therefore it sucks" or "somethings similar therefore it sucks." It's been 36 years between the second game and the third, and there are thousands of miles separating the two. Things are going to be different, even without the graphical update (and honestly there are more thematic changes over the 80 years between F1 and F2 than between the old games and the new). But it's the same world, same era, same continent, so there will be certain common elements; organizations with a motive to move or spread will have done so, the same virus will have similar effects on similar subjects, etc.

Mech wrote:Finally have some images for you guys.

That's awesome. You're awesome.

Sindri wrote:
These seem to boil down to the same two basic complaints that I've heard about the newer games from thousands of fans of the older ones: either "something's different therefore it sucks" or "somethings similar therefore it sucks." It's been 36 years between the second game and the third, and there are thousands of miles separating the two. Things are going to be different, even without the graphical update (and honestly there are more thematic changes over the 80 years between F1 and F2 than between the old games and the new). But it's the same world, same era, same continent, so there will be certain common elements; organizations with a motive to move or spread will have done so, the same virus will have similar effects on similar subjects, etc.

Seems about right. But when people start complaining about the 'quality', things get complicated.

Kattlarv wrote:And well, the topic I wanted to slap this sticker on was on my latest post on the chapter error/flaw, or whatever to call it, can't think of it right now. But yeah, I see that as a slip up in the story/atmosphere, forgetting it's FoE, and not our world.

I did bring this up with the others, but it was voted down. Snipehamster had this to say in way of explanation: "I don't agree with Kim's comment, though. BJ is sexually submissive and deliberately taking things slowly. Styg pulls out after his first orgasm, which implicitly sets the precedent for the following rounds."

O. Hinds wrote:

Kattlarv wrote:And well, the topic I wanted to slap this sticker on was on my latest post on the chapter error/flaw, or whatever to call it, can't think of it right now. But yeah, I see that as a slip up in the story/atmosphere, forgetting it's FoE, and not our world.

I did bring this up with the others, but it was voted down. Snipehamster had this to say in way of explanation: "I don't agree with Kim's comment, though. BJ is sexually submissive and deliberately taking things slowly. Styg pulls out after his first orgasm, which implicitly sets the precedent for the following rounds."

I don't recall there being a vote of any kind; I just dropped my opinion into the discussion and went to bed. :<

My objection wasn't so much that Kim/Katt's comment was invalid. More that the scene didn't require any more awkwardness and/or detail than it already had, and that BJ's attitude was already implicit.

First things first: What's the origin of deathclaws?

re: chart
still, that chart contained some valid arguments concerning the world logic. Like building shacks of metal (horribly inefficient) when there are countless houses in decent condition remaining. Or relative scarcity of scrap metal. Or cars being extremely fragile and explosive. And something that really, really ired me: 200 years after the war and wherever I go, there is stuff to be scavenged, you just never stumble upon a place striped bare by scavengers before you.

So, the complain is not "something is different/the same" but "something is illogical".

Wiki to the rescue!

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Deathclaw

RandomBlank wrote:First things first: What's the origin of deathclaws?

re: chart
still, that chart contained some valid arguments concerning the world logic. Like building shacks of metal (horribly inefficient) when there are countless houses in decent condition remaining. Or relative scarcity of scrap metal. Or cars being extremely fragile and explosive. And something that really, really ired me: 200 years after the war and wherever I go, there is stuff to be scavenged, you just never stumble upon a place striped bare by scavengers before you.

First: Chameleons. Modified by the US government. Lost 'camo', got bigger, faster, more aggressive, and sometimes had intelligence.
Edit: looks like someone put a link to the wiki page. My memory seems accurate.

The cars being explosive was likely for mindless fun, I know I had some. But going by 50-80's retro, reactors will explode if you hit them hard enough with a stick.(Federation 'warp cores' in Star Trek, for example.)

No, it is not realistic that every place has not been looted. But, if you couldn't loot anything, the game would be exceptionally boring. I know leniency isn't given on the fact it is a video game, but you gotta have something.

I only linked the wiki because I couldn't remember the details off the top of my head. And since I was going to look it up I figured I'd just link it anyways.

Mech, I love how expressive your Steel Ranger helmets are. Infact, that's my new headcannon: Steel Ranger helmets not only have impossibly flexible armor protecting the ears, but they also have metal "eyebrows" that respond to the wearer's real eyebrows, thus facilitating interpony non-verbal communication. Because.

Mech wrote:Finally have some images for you guys.

<3
Thank you Mr. Mech. Just like I imagined Blackjack would do. Now quick question: does Blackjack's fingers extend like ours folded up, or does it do the Eve thing from Wall-E, possibly magically so?

OneMoreDaySK wrote:

Mech wrote:Finally have some images for you guys.

<3
Thank you Mr. Mech. Just like I imagined Blackjack would do. Now quick question: does Blackjack's fingers extend like ours folded up, or does it do the Eve thing from Wall-E, possibly magically so?

I've been assuming that they work a bit like an anchor hoist/storage arrangement thing; part of the tip of the finger is exposed, but most of it is stored inside the hoof.

O. Hinds wrote:

OneMoreDaySK wrote:

Mech wrote:Finally have some images for you guys.

<3
Thank you Mr. Mech. Just like I imagined Blackjack would do. Now quick question: does Blackjack's fingers extend like ours folded up, or does it do the Eve thing from Wall-E, possibly magically so?

I've been assuming that they work a bit like an anchor hoist/storage arrangement thing; part of the tip of the finger is exposed, but most of it is stored inside the hoof.

Huh... I've been assuming all of it retracts into the hoof, and there's small holes where they would come out from.

OneMoreDaySK wrote:Now quick question: does Blackjack's fingers extend like ours folded up, or does it do the Eve thing from Wall-E, possibly magically so?

The way I see it, the back and tip of each finger is flush with the side and pad of the hoof respectively (stored in a straight position), and they pop up and out when they deploy. Like... a finger-shaped section of her foreleg's exterior slides forward and becomes articulated.

Mech wrote:Cockroach Fighting

My mind was still on Stygius, so it had to tick, tick, tick, until it remembered Gorgon's Roach Wrestling experiments. I'm still giggling (the pair in the back are hilarious). I, for one, am really glad to see another Gorgon pic.

SilentCarto wrote:

OneMoreDaySK wrote:Now quick question: does Blackjack's fingers extend like ours folded up, or does it do the Eve thing from Wall-E, possibly magically so?

The way I see it, the back and tip of each finger is flush with the side and pad of the hoof respectively (stored in a straight position), and they pop up and out when they deploy. Like... a finger-shaped section of her foreleg's exterior slides forward and becomes articulated.

That's the way I see it too, her hooves are totally normal hoof shape until she unfolds her fingers.

RandomBlank wrote:First things first: What's the origin of deathclaws?

Genetically engineered chameleons, to be dropped behind enemy lines as a biological weapon.

So, the complain is not "something is different/the same" but "something is illogical".

Yes, there are many logical problems with F3 (thought the metal huts actually do make sense; corrugates sheet metal is easy to work with and sturdy, while the old houses are decaying, impossible to repair with the available tools, and likely to collapse on top of you if you sleep in them). And I covered several of them in previous posts. But those were not the arguments to which I was responding.



@fingers
I'd imagined them as being flush with the sides of the hoof, then swinging outward and forward into an articulated claw.

now for something different,

I really do enjoy the fact that Somber makes Blackjack eat food a couple times every chapter. Don't see her drinking water or any other drink as frequently but i can let that pass. It's a subtle thing but I enjoy seeing it.

Yeah, it does seem like somber was able to subvert(or completely invert) all those little tropes that make story telling easier in a way that actually adds to the quality of the story.(Look up tropes"Nobody poops","Who needs sleep"," Who needs to eat or drink", etc.)

I see it like this. Most other stories (movies/shows/books/etc.) are regular mode. Project Horizon is on Hardcore mode.
I mean, the other FoE stories have token mentions of food, drink, and other body function, PH here more or less makes them plot points.

Finally caught up with the story again. This chapter has to be one of my favorites for the character development and Blackjack getting a breather.

By the way, this is Fuzzy Porcupine Paws from the previous comment threads on EQD.

Blackjack's change in personality comes well timed. Working through trauma of any degree is going to produce changes in a person's personality. Looking up any manual or guide on recovering from sexual trauma, this is typically noted in the first page or paragraph on the sections meant for spouses and partners. The changes are realistic though, as BJ has more fluidity in the emotions evoked in her speech patterns. There was a jaw dropping moment when she was willing to work through her fears when sleeping with Stygius. Even all the way back in chapter one BJ has the heavily ingrained habit of avoidance. This came in the form of not wanting to think about anything that would cause an "Incident." I don't know if this thinking was common for all mares working in security or just her. It was clear that Rivets was very willing to take risks and push for change. It could just be BJ's past experiences that formed this, but I can't pinpoint the specific ones off the top of my head. Being willing to face her fears knowing full and well what the risks are shows that BJ is finally developing the tools to build healthier habits.

BJ's libido is one point that I found a very accurate portrayal for a recovering rape victim. Think of two pint glasses full of cider. One is full of screaming PTSD trauma, the other one is the natural mammalian sex drive. As a rape victim works through trauma, the first glass gets progressively emptied, but the libido never goes down. One thing the sexual assault counselors never mentioned was how the anxiety and desire work off each other and only get louder. Trying not to think about it just makes them both more active. Right now BJ has a libido that starts at 11 and does not have an off button. Fortunately she found an ideal partner that was willing and had the sufficient stamina.

To Somber's credit, BJ is playing true to the culture that raised her. Not only was monogamy not practiced, but it was stigmatized by the stable as a whole. On a personal level BJ associates monogamy with the destructive relationship between the Overmare and P-21. In her mind a strictly monogamous person carries all the pain and toxicity as the Overmare repeatedly raping her friend.

Glory is a smart pony and seems to have a head about psychological recovery. If Glory understands that intense emotions lend themselves to enhanced learning, and that BJ's will be chomping at the bit for sex then she will understand everything in time. Simply put, Stygius providing a chance to sleep with a male and have it be a positive experience will have a life time of positive effects for BJ to take control back in her life. She had the momentum of weeks in a psych recovery sim and it was best to "strike while the iron was hot" so to speak. With everything that had happened to BJ in the last 48 hours, it was paramount that she have some anchor that proved she could be stronger that the trauma eating her alive. Blackjack sleeping with Stygius will hurt Glory, but she's too intelligent to let the pain blind her for long. She will eventually understand that what happened was likely the best possible outcome.

Stygius is one of my favorite characters. He has a sense of nobility, integrity and bravery. In the wasteland he expresses the rare traits of respecting a person's boundaries and showing genuine affection to his partner. People will have their opinions about his intentions, but if BJ said "No" at any point then I'm confident we would back off. People who tend to be pushy often don't show as much affection or connection to their partner.

Now that I think about it, it makes sense that BJ and Stygilicious would be attracted to each other. They both come from areas with a limited gene pool, which often makes people more likely to be attracted to more exotic mates. BJ grew up in a stable with a limited selection of people. Stygius came from a cave that was a few generations short of a family reunion.

Sindri wrote:

RandomBlank wrote:First things first: What's the origin of deathclaws?

Genetically engineered chameleons, to be dropped behind enemy lines as a biological weapon.

I really, really wonder what did the gfx designer think when they thought this:

would evolve into this:

(thought the metal huts actually do make sense; corrugates sheet metal is easy to work with and sturdy)

Rusts very fast without proper maintenance, is hard to seal against leaking, provides totally horrible temperature conditions (zero isolation from cold in winter, turns into oven on warm days). Amplifies noise, is a very poor protection against invasion (easy to tear down), zero bullet protection, and in 200 years most of it would be merely piles of rust.

All these disused trailers would be vastly better homes.[/quote]

RandomBlank wrote:I really, really wonder what did the gfx designer think when they thought this:

would evolve into this:

Not evolved. Not even mutated. Genetically engineered. They took the chameleon, and traits from some other animals, increased size and aggression, lost color changing along the way but didn't really care, and generally took the best technology and medical know-how of the years just before the war and applied them to making the perfect autonomous self-replicating hazard to drop behind enemy lines.

Rusts very fast without proper maintenance, is hard to seal against leaking, provides totally horrible temperature conditions (zero isolation from cold in winter, turns into oven on warm days). Amplifies noise, is a very poor protection against invasion (easy to tear down), zero bullet protection, and in 200 years most of it would be merely piles of rust.

All these disused trailers would be vastly better homes.

Aluminum doesn't corrode aside from a very thin layer on the surface. Other metals can be painted. It'll keep the rain and the wind off you, and it's cooler in the sun than you would be outside at least. It won't stop bullets but it slows them down and redirects them a lot more than rotting drywall, and provides the same concealment. Most importantly, it won't collapse on your head. Sure a decently intact trailer would be a better home, and wherever those could be found they were in use. But sheet metal is a lot better than a pre-war apartment building that's full of toxic mold and has close to zero structural integrity left after centuries of decay.

I'm not saying that corrugated sheet metal huts are a good idea. But they're significantly better than the only other options in a lot of places.

Sindri wrote:

RandomBlank wrote:I really, really wonder what did the gfx designer think when they thought this:

would evolve into this:

Not evolved. Not even mutated. Genetically engineered. They took the chameleon, and traits from some other animals, increased size and aggression, lost color changing along the way

...lost color, body shape, skin texture, eye construction, sticky pawpads turned into enormous claws, tree-climbing fingers into legs, long curled tail into a short spiked one, sticky tongue in toothless jaw into a normal tongue in wide toothed jaw, and pretty much everything else changed. You'd expect at least a shade of resemblance to the original. It's like they took a toaster and engineered it into a bomber airplane, or took a cup of coffee and engineered it into a nuclear fuel.

Aluminum doesn't corrode aside from a very thin layer on the surface. Other metals can be painted.

But they aren't. The traces of rust indicate it's not painted, not aluminum, not even galvanized.

It'll keep the rain and the wind off you, and it's cooler in the sun than you would be outside at least.

Have you ever entered a closed corrugated sheet metal garage on a sunny day? The temperatures easily reach 80C.

It won't stop bullets but it slows them down and redirects them a lot more than rotting drywall,

Not really, especially if it's thin. And a mud/sand/brick wall will stop bullets much better.

A dugout will provide a vastly better shelter. It can be done pretty much everywhere. You can use the same corrugated metal for the roof, or use wood or sheet plastic with earth layer on top, but the earthen walls will keep the place cool in summer, a layer of straw or hay, or even snow on the roof will keep it much warmer in winter, the walls will be pretty much impenetrable for most of ammo, it can be made very defensible, and if you build it into a side of a hill, and add some drainage, the dirt floor will not turn to mud either. It will be vastly more sturdy, probably easier to build, and a viable alternative pretty much everywhere there's a bit of soil, a slope of terrain and a fraction of materials needed for a shack.

Mobius04 wrote:On a personal level BJ associates monogamy with the destructive relationship between the Overmare and P-21. In her mind a strictly monogamous person carries all the pain and toxicity as the Overmare repeatedly raping her friend.

Oh, wow. That's an angle I hadn't considered before. Now I have the mental image of BJ giving Glory a careful hug and telling her, "You're not a bad pony, so you don't have to be that way..."

RandomBlank wrote:
...lost color, body shape, skin texture, eye construction, sticky pawpads turned into enormous claws, tree-climbing fingers into legs, long curled tail into a short spiked one, sticky tongue in toothless jaw into a normal tongue in wide toothed jaw, and pretty much everything else changed. You'd expect at least a shade of resemblance to the original. It's like they took a toaster and engineered it into a bomber airplane, or took a cup of coffee and engineered it into a nuclear fuel

First off: deathclaws are not chameleons. Any comparison you draw between the two is immediately invalidated by them being completely different things. Chameleons were just an important ingredient in the cocktail. That they are both reptilian and (occasionally) have horns is nothing but coincidence. Second: This is Fallout. There is a wacky scientist who has pioneered a recipe for turning coffee into nuclear fuel somewhere in the wasteland.

The whole thing about Deathclaws being genetically altered and
engineered chameleons can be explained by the fact that the SCIENCE! off
the Fallout Universe, while similar to our own, also takes a ton of
cues from 50's era B sci-fi/horror/monster movies.
I'm not a fan of "Because magic/SCIENCE!" excuse to explain away things
but that's pretty much the case here. Same goes with the
rattlesnake/coyote crossed Night Stalkers and the former tarantula hawk
wasps now Cazadors. And don't blame FEV because that had nothing to do with those. It was just pure mad science.

If you want to go out of game explanation they was suppose to be hairy mammal like creatures but due to early graphics not being able to render fur properly they made them leathery skin so they went with a reptile and I guess picked one at random.

...except both Night Stalkers and Cazadors look very much like mixes their origin species (and quite awesome at that). Deathclaws look nothing like chameleons, and they seem to be "Fuck your chameleon idea, I'll make a huge demon."

At least FO1 deathclaws bear a rough, passing semblance of chameleons.

The Fallout 3 ones? nada.

Anyway, Hellhounds are vastly superior.

@Silent: (BoS) Oh, okay. Since I recall tactics being named "Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of steel".

@Mele: ("signs") While I can agree a "too obvious" "neon sign" would stand out too much, and like said, most probably search for replies with their name on it, it would be kinda decent with a more overall "noticeable" thing for stuff such as ex: ripples, grammatical errors, misspellings, contradictions and etc. For easier access for the editors or whatnot, or I dunno. I might likely be the one with the biggest problem with that due to I reply once every 1-2 days, and that with a wall of text. I'll Prolly just start marking them with some "("text")" like the rest, but with some like... I dunno, "chapter error"? tag next to it. Not that I manage to find those often, but when I do... xP (and this is not just about that latest comment, it's overall, since I know one has to search for my few, constructive comments about errors I find. Just happened to bring it up now.)

@Super Mutants: Actually, technically, that was also addressed in Tactics. You meet a super mutant researcher that tries to find a "cure" for their infertility. And going with how you're supposed to be a good guy, the "not kill the "good" mutants" was likely picked for canon. Eh, trailing off here, but whatever.

@O. Hinds: (BJ) Right, being less tired now, and might be able to explain it better. Part here is that the thing I got a problem with here is that BJ seems to be thinking more in "human terms". Since to me, if we go by all we know of 99, the males were sent around as more or less sex toys to the mares, to do their bidding. So focusing the sex around them would seem illogical. Since going with what P-21 said, I really doubt the males strutted around from mare to mare and was in charge of what happened. Especially not going with the hinted abuse that was going on. Basically, I really doubt that when they were discussing or bragging about sex between one another that "Oh, I managed to please the buck on my queue so many times!". More likely would be in said case if they were sadistic and were bragging how much they managed to push the poor buck. In either case, despite being awake, I still suck at explaining xD What I'm trying to say is that even if BJ is a doormat in bed, (and yes, she was kinda pointed out to be "different" from the start from the others in the stable, so she likely actually even cared that the male finished as well.), and with other mentions in the scene that she does like sex, it still seems odd that she revolves the whole sex to be around the male. It goes against her stable quite a bit. But if it refers to them as "time between each act", it makes partial sense as that could simply mean, well, time between each act. Small point still being that she technically might not see it as a full "round", as her current partner is theoretically doing a really bad job, going with 99 logic. Seeing as how he 2 out of 3 times failed to perform the main purpose males would theoretically have in her brain.

The second reason I brought it up is since it kinda makes Styg look like more of a douche than some hints already does. (and I'm not really a fan of having to label male or female characters that, or slut, but currently he rather fits both.) Since if it now is the "have sex, rest for some minutes, go again", it clearly shows he had NO interest in BJ's pleasure as he got himself off, went to rest, did it a second time, rested again, did it a third time on which she "managed" to get off herself. (And yes, he was a virgin, and BJ seemed to spend at least the first round focusing on fortifying herself, it would still mean he still didn't consider if for a bit in between the rests or during them, which really makes me wonder how badly educated these batponies are in sex ed. And kinda puts BJ on a "Oh... okay..." level of caring for herself... which I can agree has sorta happened before. But it still confuses me as she seems to really value her orgasms, or at least the act of sex as it makes her feel like a pony.) So yeah, while her mentality is really kerfaffling for me during this chapter, and I know her whole point of it this time was to prove she could let males be in control of her again, it still seems off to me that she seems to have so little interest to finish herself. Granted, it does fit a bit with her "martyr" personality, but the way she thinks of it in several terms seems to conflict with that. Granted that she can be that rare freaking "just happy as long as their partner is", but that's a bit of a stretch.

And gah, me trying to explain stuff is not always the best idea xD But yeah... my mind is a really confusing place as said.

@Mobi: (Review) Semi-random, can as said only partially agree on staying true to her "culture". She seems to be lacking some mental traits she should be having. Granted, the "always an exception" can be used, since hey, I fit that category quite a lot xD But basically, BJ in theory, partially is a reversed me. Since she got traits a human female in our society might have going with our upbringing. Which would simply not exist naturally going by her stable's ethics.

And for Styg, if you go back and read over the discussion about him, you will find several flaws and errors with that statement. Not entierly sure the exact meaning of the words, but I'd put him as more or less a "selfish douche, with a bit of class". Or "white knight" works too. Since yes, he did respect her boundaries, to a borderline extent. He still just (to what I could make out of it) wanted to use her to get off himself with. She was in a emotionally weak state, and he used that. He was of some comfort, I can't deny that. But compared to what he could have done, it was very little. Still, I can thankfully say while I found his actions somewhat despicable, I can just glance in a direction outside the story or forum and find WAY worse people. One being a person that expects females to do anything/any act for him, while he refuses to do anything that doesn't directly stimulate him at the same time as her if he has to do/give anything.


Welp, going to head off for a RPG now. And as always: always take my comment with a pinch of... something, and if I sound upset/angry, I'm not mad at anyone here directly... okay, maybe with a certain exception, a bit ticked there. But back to point: I'm just generally annoyed at the subject in general. That, or I'm just in a bad mood in general. Well, take care you guys. And hopefully will be less "PMS-y" in a few whiles xP