Sister forumFallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Fuzzy Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:17 am
I just had a physio appointment today, checking out my neck and spine, oddly. I'm sure they have some nervous system reasoning behind it. More exercises, to come off my medicine soon and then the real thing will matter...whether it's fixed once the painkillers wear off...
So we'll see. Here's hoping! Thanks for asking. :)
So we'll see. Here's hoping! Thanks for asking. :)
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Admiral Stoic Rum Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:02 pm
i suppose they want for you to continue with the exercises even after you're set for normalcy, you know for preventative measure...
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Fuzzy Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:09 pm
Absolutely, and I'm happy to do so. The sooner I can write, the better I'll feel.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Admiral Stoic Rum Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:44 pm
its like you have these ideas that are pouring from you and you must put them down on paper or something so you don't forget them, how many ideas have been lost already!?
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by O. Hinds Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:04 pm
It's odd, but ship naming seems to be an exception to my general nature of being bad at naming things.Fuzzy wrote:I haven't seen any other names for it, other than "inevitable" if you ask some people. :p
Why do I feel some of your other ships mentioned last night are beginning to get thought of in your mind for names too now, hmm? ;)
So... since you've challenged me, let's see (though I may not remember all of the ones mentioned last night)...
Blackjack/Glimmerlight: Blacklight
Blackjack/Murky: Murkyjack
P-21/Murky: Murky Number 21 (MN21 for short)
Glory/Murky: Murky Morning
Lacunae/Master Chief (Yeah... it was a bit of an odd conversation...): ...I don't know. Halo is a foreign fandom to me. Goddess Chief?
Lancer/Murky: ...Sneakshipping? I don't know. It's a pretty ridiculous crack, anyway.
Blackjack/Lighthooves: Blackhooves
Those are the only ones I at the moment remember us mentioning that didn't already have names.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Doctor Whooves Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:51 pm
I don't know, 'Inevitable' sounds good to me. See also: Obvious, Blatant, Cute and Delicious.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by hawkeye92 Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:31 pm
I had a whole page of text written out then my browser derped as I was finishing up so I lost it all. Curses.
First off, hello! I've been lurking on the PH thread for a while but I didn't look at Murky Number seven until last week. Since then I've been reading it in pretty much any spare time I've had and I'm nearly caught up.
It's absolutely amazing. There's so many good points I couldn't possibly hope to point them all out but in a very brief summary I have to say the world-building is nothing short of excellent. Although it never leaves Fillydelphia there's a real depth and richness to the environment and it's denizens.
The world is also particularly grim and bleak even by the wasteland's standards and it comes across well. But there is the occasional piece of humour (often from Murky's sketchbook or Glimmer) which does help lighten the mood a little.
Also I haven't noticed any real laggy parts where everything slows down a little too much or starts to fall down, something which is the constant plague of stories with chapters of this kind of length (something which was notorious with the original especially towards the end).
The main protagonist is great as well. Murky is about as far from your typical FoE hero as you can get, which is refreshing. It also makes threats much more real and significant where other heroes would simply laugh it off in some cases. But, even the weak, indoctrinated slave that he is, Murky can still pluck up the courage to be monumentally heroic. I'm glad as the story progressed he hasn't become much stronger than he used to be- the fact that this is more about internal conflict than external really helps his character.
The characters in the spotlight are all nicely rounded with strengths, weaknesses and flaws (Brim and Glim particularly worth noting there). Similarly, the antagonists are well thought out and three dimensional, especially Wicked Slit and Protégé. The only character which seems more two dimensional is the Master, Chainlink Shackles. Fortunately, this isn't such a bad thing since he is genuinely one of the most genuinely terrifying people that I've come across in the written word. With each chapter he gets more devious, manipulative and evil. Matched against a more traditional FoE hero or indeed any competent fighting force (remembering the hatred of pegasi for killing lots of his fellow slavers- I wouldn't be surprised if he personally had to turn tail and run from an Enclave scout at some point in the past), he would probably be killed off fairly easily, but in Fillydeplpia where cruelty is a part of life and there are lots of easy pickings of weaker ponies he really has his chance to shine. And shine he does, the evil bastard.
I know it's implied that the Master is Murky's son, so it certainly says something about Shackles' character to want to single out his own son for cruel and unusual torture (whether or not it's an outlet for inward loathing at carrying the genes for his most hated of races or serious parent issues himself is probably looking at it too deeply). His speech being made in bold also adds to his sheer presence on the page which just adds to his overall being a really awesome bad guy. I really hope we don't come to pity him like the bad guys in other FoE stories.
Being two dimensional isn't always bad.
I haven't caught up yet and I was going to wait until I had before posting this, but I read the second half of Sixty Minutes in Hell over lunch and all I can say is Gods almighty. That was some of, if not the most nerve shredding reading I've ever had the pleasure of coming across and has firmly cemented this story in my 'best writing of all time' list. It got to the point that I realised my hands were shaking and my breathing had gone haywire and didn't stop until the end of the chapter. The tension just kept going up and up and up!
There is only one issue in an otherwise absolutely perfect piece, which is the formatting of 'the game' and use of bold within. Bold font, especially on a computer, tends to draw the eye or at least be noticed as soon as it appears. Because 'click' and 'BANG' are effectively their own paragraphs there was a real danger of realising the result of a round before t was read. Luckily I was reading it on GDocs on my phone and so I only had Caduceus' death spoiled by a few lines, but I did cover the bottom half of the screen and force myself to read line by line afterwards. I think if I were reading it on a full sized monitor the tension would have been pulled down a little which would be a shame. Unfortunately I have no idea how else it could be written without losing some of its visceral brutality.
Reading through the Google Docs version I did notice a couple of spelling/immersion issues which I noted down where I saw them. Nothing has jumped out at me for the last couple of chapters though.
Chapter 4- 'Other things to,' - 'Other things too,'
Chapter 9- 'Sooty Morass' is named 'Sooth Morass' at one point.
Hands. There are hands everywhere, which sometimes breaks the immersion. Normally it's not an issue for stuff like handy or left hand side etc. (though the latter you could probably lose the hand), but there are a couple of points where it really jumps out, like 'hand written birthday card', and 'came out empty handed' all in chapter 5. It kinda breaks the immersion a bit since they don't have hands.
There's also a lot of handing things over sprinkled in as well but I only realise through ctrl f so it's not really an issue. I guess you could knock out every instance of the word hand with clever wording but it would be a lot of hassle for little gain. With things like handing over, changing to hoofing over sounds quite forced.
So, in short, this story is pretty damned awesome- I'm going to carry on reading and finish the last few chapters off.
First off, hello! I've been lurking on the PH thread for a while but I didn't look at Murky Number seven until last week. Since then I've been reading it in pretty much any spare time I've had and I'm nearly caught up.
It's absolutely amazing. There's so many good points I couldn't possibly hope to point them all out but in a very brief summary I have to say the world-building is nothing short of excellent. Although it never leaves Fillydelphia there's a real depth and richness to the environment and it's denizens.
The world is also particularly grim and bleak even by the wasteland's standards and it comes across well. But there is the occasional piece of humour (often from Murky's sketchbook or Glimmer) which does help lighten the mood a little.
Also I haven't noticed any real laggy parts where everything slows down a little too much or starts to fall down, something which is the constant plague of stories with chapters of this kind of length (something which was notorious with the original especially towards the end).
The main protagonist is great as well. Murky is about as far from your typical FoE hero as you can get, which is refreshing. It also makes threats much more real and significant where other heroes would simply laugh it off in some cases. But, even the weak, indoctrinated slave that he is, Murky can still pluck up the courage to be monumentally heroic. I'm glad as the story progressed he hasn't become much stronger than he used to be- the fact that this is more about internal conflict than external really helps his character.
The characters in the spotlight are all nicely rounded with strengths, weaknesses and flaws (Brim and Glim particularly worth noting there). Similarly, the antagonists are well thought out and three dimensional, especially Wicked Slit and Protégé. The only character which seems more two dimensional is the Master, Chainlink Shackles. Fortunately, this isn't such a bad thing since he is genuinely one of the most genuinely terrifying people that I've come across in the written word. With each chapter he gets more devious, manipulative and evil. Matched against a more traditional FoE hero or indeed any competent fighting force (remembering the hatred of pegasi for killing lots of his fellow slavers- I wouldn't be surprised if he personally had to turn tail and run from an Enclave scout at some point in the past), he would probably be killed off fairly easily, but in Fillydeplpia where cruelty is a part of life and there are lots of easy pickings of weaker ponies he really has his chance to shine. And shine he does, the evil bastard.
I know it's implied that the Master is Murky's son, so it certainly says something about Shackles' character to want to single out his own son for cruel and unusual torture (whether or not it's an outlet for inward loathing at carrying the genes for his most hated of races or serious parent issues himself is probably looking at it too deeply). His speech being made in bold also adds to his sheer presence on the page which just adds to his overall being a really awesome bad guy. I really hope we don't come to pity him like the bad guys in other FoE stories.
Being two dimensional isn't always bad.
I haven't caught up yet and I was going to wait until I had before posting this, but I read the second half of Sixty Minutes in Hell over lunch and all I can say is Gods almighty. That was some of, if not the most nerve shredding reading I've ever had the pleasure of coming across and has firmly cemented this story in my 'best writing of all time' list. It got to the point that I realised my hands were shaking and my breathing had gone haywire and didn't stop until the end of the chapter. The tension just kept going up and up and up!
There is only one issue in an otherwise absolutely perfect piece, which is the formatting of 'the game' and use of bold within. Bold font, especially on a computer, tends to draw the eye or at least be noticed as soon as it appears. Because 'click' and 'BANG' are effectively their own paragraphs there was a real danger of realising the result of a round before t was read. Luckily I was reading it on GDocs on my phone and so I only had Caduceus' death spoiled by a few lines, but I did cover the bottom half of the screen and force myself to read line by line afterwards. I think if I were reading it on a full sized monitor the tension would have been pulled down a little which would be a shame. Unfortunately I have no idea how else it could be written without losing some of its visceral brutality.
Reading through the Google Docs version I did notice a couple of spelling/immersion issues which I noted down where I saw them. Nothing has jumped out at me for the last couple of chapters though.
Chapter 4- 'Other things to,' - 'Other things too,'
Chapter 9- 'Sooty Morass' is named 'Sooth Morass' at one point.
Hands. There are hands everywhere, which sometimes breaks the immersion. Normally it's not an issue for stuff like handy or left hand side etc. (though the latter you could probably lose the hand), but there are a couple of points where it really jumps out, like 'hand written birthday card', and 'came out empty handed' all in chapter 5. It kinda breaks the immersion a bit since they don't have hands.
There's also a lot of handing things over sprinkled in as well but I only realise through ctrl f so it's not really an issue. I guess you could knock out every instance of the word hand with clever wording but it would be a lot of hassle for little gain. With things like handing over, changing to hoofing over sounds quite forced.
So, in short, this story is pretty damned awesome- I'm going to carry on reading and finish the last few chapters off.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by O. Hinds Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:56 pm
I often keep the active paragraph at the bottom of my screen, read it, scroll the next paragraph into view, repeat. It works for everything past the first page or so.hawkeye92 wrote:There is only one issue in an otherwise absolutely perfect piece, which is the formatting of 'the game' and use of bold within. Bold font, especially on a computer, tends to draw the eye or at least be noticed as soon as it appears. Because 'click' and 'BANG' are effectively their own paragraphs there was a real danger of realising the result of a round before t was read. Luckily I was reading it on GDocs on my phone and so I only had Caduceus' death spoiled by a few lines, but I did cover the bottom half of the screen and force myself to read line by line afterwards. I think if I were reading it on a full sized monitor the tension would have been pulled down a little which would be a shame. Unfortunately I have no idea how else it could be written without losing some of its visceral brutality.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Fuzzy Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:21 pm
Hawkeye92 - Thanks so much for that amount of feedback! Especially the typo corrections and "hand" denotions. I'll get on them tomorrow to correct on both GDocs and FimFic. So much thanks for spotting them!
Really so happy you're enjoying it, I often worry I'll never be able to top "Six Shooter Surprise" in terms of tension ever again. But then I often wonder if I even should or if it'd just seem to be deliberately trying to top it. My plans more try to focus on other emotions and let Six Shooter shine as the top "tense" moment of the story as a complete whole. Other emotions still have chances to come! The response to Chapter 12 was amazing, I feel so happy for taking the extra time on it.
But when you say "two dimensional isn't always bad" I agree so much! That was a defining trait of the Master, I felt that people would really appreciate a badguy you could just love to really hate. To tak satisfaction or frustration from his failures or successes against the heroes. Writing Glim and Brim has been a real ride too. Awesome that you like em. :)
With the bolded BLAM, I kinda wrote myself into a corner with that one. Protégé's revolver was already pretty written in that it was a bolded BLAM sound if done. So I tried all I could to distract from it, hide it and position it away from paragraphs that many could read line by line or paragraph by paragraph. It's tough to do those things and I kinda wish I hadn't set that precident now. But it happened, so I had to roll with it. :p
Again, thanks so much for such a big post of feedback, mightily appreciated and it makes me want to recover and get told by the medical teams I can use my wrist to write again. (It's getting better, I mean look at this post)
OHinds - That's how I read too. :)
Swicked - You would laugh at that, but then I admit I rather enjoy your thoughts on the story, they are often pretty unique and insightful in differing ways from many people! It makes me laugh to know it made you laugh too, even if it's in a way that's almost a bit daft. xD
Really so happy you're enjoying it, I often worry I'll never be able to top "Six Shooter Surprise" in terms of tension ever again. But then I often wonder if I even should or if it'd just seem to be deliberately trying to top it. My plans more try to focus on other emotions and let Six Shooter shine as the top "tense" moment of the story as a complete whole. Other emotions still have chances to come! The response to Chapter 12 was amazing, I feel so happy for taking the extra time on it.
But when you say "two dimensional isn't always bad" I agree so much! That was a defining trait of the Master, I felt that people would really appreciate a badguy you could just love to really hate. To tak satisfaction or frustration from his failures or successes against the heroes. Writing Glim and Brim has been a real ride too. Awesome that you like em. :)
With the bolded BLAM, I kinda wrote myself into a corner with that one. Protégé's revolver was already pretty written in that it was a bolded BLAM sound if done. So I tried all I could to distract from it, hide it and position it away from paragraphs that many could read line by line or paragraph by paragraph. It's tough to do those things and I kinda wish I hadn't set that precident now. But it happened, so I had to roll with it. :p
Again, thanks so much for such a big post of feedback, mightily appreciated and it makes me want to recover and get told by the medical teams I can use my wrist to write again. (It's getting better, I mean look at this post)
OHinds - That's how I read too. :)
Swicked - You would laugh at that, but then I admit I rather enjoy your thoughts on the story, they are often pretty unique and insightful in differing ways from many people! It makes me laugh to know it made you laugh too, even if it's in a way that's almost a bit daft. xD
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by hawkeye92 Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:06 pm
All right, nicely caught up now. It's still kept up nicely. I liked the return of 'the mare' however briefly. I thought there was something up with Unity's name, figured it had something to do with the goddess but the penny didn't drop until the end. It's a pretty tragic end to her tale if that's the last we see of her.
Life with the Master is just as brutal as I thought it had be- the irradiated slave collar and psycological blow of the journal is heartbreaking. At least he has his family back. I did think that it was going to be all over after the fight with glimmer.
I like the small nods to the past sprinkled in with the pipbuck recordings and the things lying around- especially the message from Pinkie.
One thing I did think that felt off was the way Murky was finally captured. Lifted pretty much straight from the season two ending, I don't know, it felt kinda forced. The other big lift from the show, find a gun, worked because it was meant to be lighthearted and cheesy. But with such an important piece- pretty much the beginning of the end of hope- I don't think it worked as well as it could have been.
It's a small nitpick though, it's not a major thing.
WARNING! Wild speculation ahead!
Life with the Master is just as brutal as I thought it had be- the irradiated slave collar and psycological blow of the journal is heartbreaking. At least he has his family back. I did think that it was going to be all over after the fight with glimmer.
I like the small nods to the past sprinkled in with the pipbuck recordings and the things lying around- especially the message from Pinkie.
One thing I did think that felt off was the way Murky was finally captured. Lifted pretty much straight from the season two ending, I don't know, it felt kinda forced. The other big lift from the show, find a gun, worked because it was meant to be lighthearted and cheesy. But with such an important piece- pretty much the beginning of the end of hope- I don't think it worked as well as it could have been.
It's a small nitpick though, it's not a major thing.
WARNING! Wild speculation ahead!
- Spoiler:
- I don't think the body Murky found the pipbuck on was Sundial. Reasoning being, the clasp was totally smashed off and the whole unit in general was completely broken, which I don't think would happen from just one pony using it before the war and some scavengers trying to pry it off- besides they would have more or less succeeded in removing the pipbuck so it would have been taken already. My personal theory is that it was passed on from Sundial to someone else when he died in the stable and then found its way out when the stable opened, got broken and patched up (like the locking mechanism) then someone died with it. The body could have been there for a mere fifty years and still look like it's been there for forever. Sundial could have simply put a temporal lock on the audio recordings- to ensure he's out of the picture before anyone hears them.
Also the persistant rain- by this point the Enclave probably know what Red Eye is up to and are planning their attack. From how completely polluted the air is around Filly the Enclave could possibly be worried about the vast quanities of Sulphur dioxide and Nitrogen Dioxide (amongst other things) in the atmosphere could foul up any mechanical equipment needing air passed through alongside fouling up respirator cartriges fast, so making it rain constantly for a couple of weeks could help remediate the problem. Both of those compounds are pretty major industrial pollutants and combined they cause acid rain.
Finally, if I rember my FoE right, the guys Pip and company encountered at Bucklyn Cross were only a vanguard, with the majority of the rangers involved in their civil war at the fortress across the river, so Glimmer's parents might still be alive. Pip certainly would have killed someone she once knew and to be fair ranger civil war is equally as dangerous, so it could go either way.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Fuzzy Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:48 pm
Big review! I'll repond with as usual! Thanks so much. As the norm, I'm not "disagreeing", I'm just offering my side and always always thinking on what is said.
Phew...that was a long review! I gotta admit I absolutely adore and look forward to your portrait based reviews, but I can totally understand that you don't have the time to do them. They must take so much time!
All the same, I highly value your feedback, I have no objections to you going with a shorter format if that aids you. Thanks so much for the effort all this time.
...still won't do 15.5 though, I'm afraid. Sorry. :p
I'm...loathe to say it because I know what your mind would be like if "set up" but Chapter 16 is very easily the darkest chapter in the entire story. A lot of Shackles' intentions are to break Murky...and Chapter 16 is where he really makes a move now that he's built Murky in and locked him down. There's something to be said for how many times Shackles 'loses' him as you said...the question is whether he genuinelly cares or even if he intends for Murky to think he can keep escaping.
Chapter 16 will answer a lot of that. The moment I'm recovered, I'll be on it. You can see how much I've typed here and I feel fine so...we're almost there, medically. So so close to writing again now.
Again, thank you!
- Spoiler:
- "Per the norm, don’t recognize the quote. I’d think any “master” would want slavery, though."
It's a quote from the original Fallouts to do with "The Master" in there reworked into 'my' Master here.
"“I’m” is a contraction, though, so I think it may still count as two words or a “word group”."
Murky isn't exactly big on words. :p
"All that stuff I said at the beginning? Throw it out the window; it’s been way too long since I read this fic..."
Yeah I was about to write my response to explain some things, but I figured I'd read on until you got to points when he explains a little more. Shackles is a rather deliberately two toned character. He HATES Murky being a pegasus, but he LOVES having Murky around as an addition to his life as his little personal slave pet to treat well or "punish" to fit his rather unbalanced mood. He loves having him to hate, if you get what I mean.
"NOW KISS!
Also: anyone else imagine a little filly chainlink when he said he always wanted a pony growing up? XD!!!"
...not before you said that! Arrrrgh my brain! xD
"Yes, I realize I’m being mean to poor Murky. I can’t help it, this is
just such a hilarious twist of fate and direction compared to the
bleakness of the end of the last chapter XD"
It's alright, I've always thought to myself that people would look at my stories in differing ways, especially when it toes the line between being "safe" for most people to read and "light grimdark." I wanted to (at least now) show more of the intriguing side of Murk and Shackles' relationship rather than the simply "more brutal" side, which would really just be "most early chapters, but worse." I try to keep things fresh and interesting. But as you'll know by the end, he's still with The Master, Chapter 16 definitely doesn't just "drop" it all.
"By all that is unholy, I want a FoE:MNS Chapter 15.5
That’s right, you heard me.
I want one so bad XD"
Not from me, sorry. :p
Interesting theory on spotting differences between injury locations in the writing. I think it's fairly obvious that wasn't my intent but, eh, I don't see any reason to correct it if the more 'grimdark' readers wanna headcanon the darkness up a bit.
However, the LMR portraits on those bits made me laugh, just that sick smugness. Oh you. XD
"I literally just tried to throw something at ya, Fuzzy. Sucks that you're in the far-off and magical land of Ireland..."
Scotland :p
"In a way, he reminds me of courage, the cowardly dog. I love that dog X)"
...if I were a better animator I'd redo that shows intro with Murky on the spot right NOW. Oh gods the imagery! XD!!
"Maybe just keep it as “Master”?"
Murky's perspective (ie, anything not spoken by another character) up till this point has always used capitalised terms, The Master, etc. Now that he's more properly in Shackles' sway, I chose 'My Master' as a great sense of him beginning to accept his place at Shackles' side forever. Same reason you always see Protégé do the same around Red Eye.
"Heh, I read that as “children wire” and had an amusing image of children
covered in rust, their limbs maimed and twisted into tying together
with each other...
I'm really in the grimdark mindset XD"
Would it be rude of me to relink your "You don't say" image here? :p
Honestly though, I always find a great degree of interest in seeing someone who is way more into grimdark stuff. It's always really refreshing and (I feel) occasionally helps you spot things others don't as you're not as distracted by the thought of the darker things. Just a theory though, you tend to spot stuff a lot anyway. :p
"so I'm guessing this is just a change befitting his vanity."
Nail on the head. Shackles is about imagery as much as it is making sure. The idea of being kept behind bars is a hell of a lot more mentally breaking than just being kept under vague (but effective) guard.
"2: So which was it? Was she sleeping or dead? Or was she killed because
she wouldn't wake up and, if so, how could Murky tell at a distance?
Very odd."
It's a follow up to something early in the first couple of chapters, that under all the toxins, radiation, diseases and workload, some ponies go to sleep and just...expire. I really have been slacking on having that happen more around him, as it's a great metaphor for the intended end of his life to his eyes.
"...more covered pits to throw slaves into. I'm guessing something's down
there that needs to be fed regularly. Paraspites are the only monsters
of that sort we are privy to, but I'd expect this to be something else
because I somehow doubt slavers, however broken by Chainlink, would be
at all okay with having such a hazard so flimsily contained. More likely
something else. Manticores? They can be trained, after all..."
I know. But folks don't. The wonders of imagination. :p
"Something that actually makes him have to revise his plans or, heaven
forbid, actually think on his feet... 'cause the guy's been made out to
be some kinda Xanatos, minus ANY of the gambits."
As you'll know from the recent chapters, Shackles used to be in pretty big control over Filly. Well, Red Eye is now which implies very quickly that Red Eye put him in his place. As such, I write Shackles to have enough traits of somepony who could be outmanipulated or outthought by somepony like Red Eye. It's sort of my move to make sure Shackles never comes off as trying to make him more of a Master of Filly than Red Eye is. Shackles has his playground and he has a lot of aid making life good for him and ooooh does he love to just revel in it.
His ambitions clearly want more and he does have the potential with his cunning and driven arrogance to be on top...but I didn't want him to be flawless in the slightest.
It's interesting, just the other day someone critiqued him of being far too flawless and "always winning" as a "Mary Sue villain." You really have expressed why I disagreed with that. Shackles is a villain in his own element. Out in the wastes when anypony with a free will and a gun could say no...he'd be a side quest villain at best.
But to Murky, as an embodiment of slavery in his life, I think it's working. I always hate to say that I feel a bit of my story works myself, it sounds arrogant, but you do pick up on things I want people to see. I want people to eagerly await something to knock him off his pedastal and show him up.
The big guy's tough, cunning and pretty smart, but his inconsistent desires for control and slavery are as much his flaw as they are his strength in dominating slaves.
Oh and Barb was just arrogant as hell, that was his downfall. He thought he had it ALL figured out. If Brim had more time to explain, I may have had him explain that Barb was the youngest and smallest of the Big Four. He had everything to prove and it built a mentality that he became a very capable egotist, hence the showman thing.
At least...that's my "writer's intentions", whether that came out in the text is another thing...I sometimes think it didn't. Oh well...can't change it now!
"It was two words earlier. Have the words changed, or is this a mistake?"
It's deliberate. There's one unspoken word that got added as things changed here. (If I leave this in by accident and you note that later, please forgive me :p)
"Also, I guess the pain has now migrated to his rump, or the pain there
is now worse than his back. Oddly unspecific as to what the pain is
from, though XP
Honest, where is my 15.5.
Why doesn't Kim read this fic!? D:"
Not sure who you mean, they known to write such stuff?
"Is that canon? I remember Applesnack having an apple (with gears?) for
his applejack's rangers symbol, but I don't think the apple was the
symbol of the entire ministry..."
Again something you may have worked out from later in the chapter, but the building is more of a shared workspace between varying companies, the Ministry and other manufacturers.
"By the by, Fuzzy, I gotta commend you for maintaining a dynamic world.
Characters enter and leave the story, clearly having their own lives as
their position in life changes while off-screen. Very cool. Most of the
other FoE stories keep minor characters rather stagnant."
Thank you very much! I'm so glad to hear someone say that as I'm very proud of keeping track of characters like Sooty's movements alongside Mosin growing closer to Shackles. Some (like Slit) are still at their factory, but you should see a fair few more changes to their lives as time goes on. I love that shifting dynamic feel.
">The Council description<"
You know, you're likely right there. I suspect, in perfect honesty, that this was one of the scenes where I was beginning to feel my wrist aching and starting to get sore and thus...rushed. Hence why I ceased writing to get it medically seen to. Can you imagine the remainder of the story told with that sort of lack of description?
See, now you've got me thinking of designs and stuff...
Yeah, expect to see that lot again. They're getting descriptions. We'll say Murky was just a bit too jostled and nervous to really take it in the first time around. I won't let that go undescribed a second time. Great feedback!
"”...and one just wondering if I'd go better with a white sauce or red...”
Yeah, my headcanon is starting to take over..."
...so much temptation right now to use that one. Ooooh so much.
"About time we met another of the big four. The way Chainlink talks about
him, though... I dunno. It doesn't sound quite like him. He’s too...
complementary"
I saw it as a little element of pride that he had such a pony in his sway to direct as he saw. But perhaps it could be reworded to be less "mutual respect" styled. More to imply heavily that Shackles sees him as a slave too, just one he uses as a tool, not a pony.
Hmm...maybe worth looking into editing that line. *Adds it to the list*
"IMMA FUCK YOU UP, CHAIN!!!”"
*Snrk*
"I swear, Murky's going to be the end to Shackles. “Really, Chainlink? Lost your little pegasus pet again?"
It can reflect badly on Shackles, but I try to show these more as Murky struggling against the 'bigger' Shackles rather than escaping them. He can't stay hidden in Filly forever yet he can never escape. Shackles knows that, every time Murky runs, it's merely to set himself up for another harsh retrieval.
The point on how other slavers maybe view it is interesting. But Shackles has some powerful allies and a lot of 'political' sway in Filly. I imagine most ponies don't want to snigger at him lest something 'happen' from, say, Wildcard or a leftover Shade that still sees Shackles as their way out. He wasn't ordering the bigger ones, just the slavers who were on guard and stuff. The grunts. The Masters who joined did so of their own free will. Grindstone especially.
Not that I'm saying "You're wrong this is how it is." I'm just offering what I saw as a potential reason was when I was writing it. But oh believe me, Murky's constant running and annoying Shackles is not going unpunished. Oooh not at all. And not just this chapter. Shackles may be flawed and think too highly of his position, but when angered enough he can come down like an unstoppable force upon somepony's life.
"Med-Yes?"
Murky has often mistaken the name throughout the story for "Med-Yes" after mishearing/misremembering someone. It's the long term version of "Sanitooser"
"That somehow seems unlikely. In the time we've seen him he's never done anyone a favor."
It's sort of off screen, but Shackles built his position by getting ponies the things they wanted through his initial influence as a past leader of Filly. A few instances of breaking in troublsome slaves for him there...taking the weaker ones off her hooves there so they could get stronger replacements...
Various things. He's as popular as he is unpopular, if you get what I mean...(I barely do sometimes)
"Dunno. Far too vague a clue for me to pick up, in any case :P
Edit from the future: My Li-ttle Po-nyyyyy?"
Good ear. ;)
"Again, me whispering to my slaver buddy from a distance: “...hey, did I
hear that right? We were searching for that kid for six hours this
morning so that Chainlink could tie him down in the rain and get a
self-portrait made? This guy is a raving loony, I tell you...”"
Never claimed that Shackles isn't a raving looney in his own dangerous way. :p
But in a more practical sense, Murky sees drawing as his one escape, Shackles doesn't know about his lack of ability these days, but he seeks to take away even that one outlet Murky has. He's ordered him not to cry and forced him to draw as directed only. It's Shackles' ways to remove all binds to choice Murky has.
"Why is he back in Coral's cell? Shackles' servant picked that cell out
at random to throw him in interm. Prior to that his quarters was
Shackles' office, IIRC."
It's...half based on something I read from about African slave camps. Children were often thrown back with their family so that they could be torn away from them every morning for work. It broke them much faster than solitary confinement, where they often festered mentally and became rebellious in their own thoughts rather than outpouring their sadness to loved ones and being comforted...before it all started again.
Expect to see Murky shift between them and the Office.
"And done. Whew! Roller-coaster-y, there. Not bad at all, if I do say so myself... and I do so say."
Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed it. And really thanks for being properly critical of some parts of this chapter, I loved looking at it from another perspective and seeing where it could improve. As ever, although it sounds like I'm just "defending" lots of what you say against it, I'm absolutely not going "Nah this is what it is, you just don't see it." or anything. I'm just offering my side of what I thought.
There's a little list of changes I've got. Although most of it doesn't get done now, I'm storing it all to 'redux' the story after I'm finished. I don't like to make sweeping changes while I'm still progressing as that can often change thematics for people who don't nessesarily reread.
But there are a load of things I wanna tighten up. I may give more hints that the "council" will get a better description later on. I may alter some of Shackles' dialogue to make him more consistent (even if inconsistency is a part of his character) and not compliment Wildcard as much. Typos you saw are already corrected (Thanks!) and a few other bits.
Phew...that was a long review! I gotta admit I absolutely adore and look forward to your portrait based reviews, but I can totally understand that you don't have the time to do them. They must take so much time!
All the same, I highly value your feedback, I have no objections to you going with a shorter format if that aids you. Thanks so much for the effort all this time.
...still won't do 15.5 though, I'm afraid. Sorry. :p
I'm...loathe to say it because I know what your mind would be like if "set up" but Chapter 16 is very easily the darkest chapter in the entire story. A lot of Shackles' intentions are to break Murky...and Chapter 16 is where he really makes a move now that he's built Murky in and locked him down. There's something to be said for how many times Shackles 'loses' him as you said...the question is whether he genuinelly cares or even if he intends for Murky to think he can keep escaping.
Chapter 16 will answer a lot of that. The moment I'm recovered, I'll be on it. You can see how much I've typed here and I feel fine so...we're almost there, medically. So so close to writing again now.
Again, thank you!
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by O. Hinds Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:21 pm
Oh, she's written clop. Some of it's on FIMFiction. They're about what you'd expect...swicked wrote:Kim is one of the Project Horizons commenters... and yeah, she makes stuff like that. Not clop fics, but definitely of a certain style of content...
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Fuzzy Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:44 am
Yeah I see what you mean about Shackles, swicked. I guess I just decided to go with the slightly more over the top 'abstract' side of it for a bit more drama. I think no-one would disagree I have a penchant for the 'dramatic' when writing. ^^;
Still, as I said, I am looking over the thing as a whole. In general my personal answer inside my own head is that outside of Murky, he's a lot more practical and logical with his work. Murky's just the special case and I don't imagine even Grindstone goes away from a scene without a shake of his head about how Shackles has really lost it after so many years. :p
@ Hawkeye92
I am so sorry I missed your post to respond before! But thanks so much for reading through! The Chapter 14 end wasn't actually originally to be the Canterlot Wedding style 'part 1 end' but the more I looked on how the scene was going, the more it just felt natural what with their connection. I think it's always a weigh up of 'Oh it's THIS scene' vs 'Oooh, history repeats itself...' every time I do something like that (which I try and keep low).
Thanks so much for commenting on theories and stuff. As ever I never even touch whether people are right or wrong regardless of what they said I can't say too much, but I love seeing theories and stuff. Helps me know what I'm angling people at or away from! Hope to hear more from you once I'm back in the game when my wrist is healed. (We've had a setback today when a nerve pinged badly...but it's healing quicker than last time.)
Still, as I said, I am looking over the thing as a whole. In general my personal answer inside my own head is that outside of Murky, he's a lot more practical and logical with his work. Murky's just the special case and I don't imagine even Grindstone goes away from a scene without a shake of his head about how Shackles has really lost it after so many years. :p
@ Hawkeye92
I am so sorry I missed your post to respond before! But thanks so much for reading through! The Chapter 14 end wasn't actually originally to be the Canterlot Wedding style 'part 1 end' but the more I looked on how the scene was going, the more it just felt natural what with their connection. I think it's always a weigh up of 'Oh it's THIS scene' vs 'Oooh, history repeats itself...' every time I do something like that (which I try and keep low).
Thanks so much for commenting on theories and stuff. As ever I never even touch whether people are right or wrong regardless of what they said I can't say too much, but I love seeing theories and stuff. Helps me know what I'm angling people at or away from! Hope to hear more from you once I'm back in the game when my wrist is healed. (We've had a setback today when a nerve pinged badly...but it's healing quicker than last time.)
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by O. Hinds Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:43 am
(reposted from the PHCC chat thread)
The GPE might be a problem in this plan, though; depending on how the war with them went (assuming that there would eventually have been a war and that it wouldn't be a total loss, since a total loss would be failure of the plan anyway), the slavers might be able to take large numbers of pegasi, delaying the reforms becoming obviously and immediately necessary. A negotiated peace might actually be better for Red Eye, under this plan, than a full conquest; it would probably also be easier, given that roughly a third or so of Red Eye's forces would be unable to fight the GPE on its home territory.
What do you think?
- Harmony Ltd.'s analysis and comments:
- Harmony Ltd. wrote:So, just because I can : an analysis on why exactly I think Red Eye's plans and methodology are fucking stupid and couldn't work even given the setting ; followed by a quick and dirty outline of what I'd do if I was in his place and at least as ruthless as he was.
Disclaimer : I know Red Eye is a literary device here to illustrate a Theme. I'll be the first to say that the fact what he does is unrealistic does nothing to retract from the merit of FoE – or at least that if you were to try to criticize the book, it wouldn't be the best angle of attack considering the rest of the setting.
BUt I've wanted to do this analysis for a while, so here I am.
So, basic assumptions :
- From what I gather of the descriptions of Fillydelphia, I'd say there's easily more than ten thousand slaves there. As a conservative estimate (IMHO) and to simplify the calculations, I'll assume a fixed workforce of 10000 slaves.
- Still from the book's description, it seems that the life-expectancy of slaves in Fillydelphia is pretty short. To make an analogy with the decay of radioactive materials, I'll estimate that slaves have an half-life of 6 month => a slave has 50% chance of dying each 6 month period – meaning that for a given batch of slaves you only have a fourth of them remaining after 12 month, and a sixteenth after 24 month. I'll note that this estimate is pretty conservative if we go by the in-universe “estimation” (subject to criticism) that the average lifespan of a slave in Fillydelphia is somewhere around a month and a half to three month.
So, where am I going with that ?
From these parameters, Red Eye has to find AT LEAST more than 5000 new slaves every six month, and 10000 per year.
Let that figure sink in.
He has to “acquire”, by any means, at least more than 833 new slaves each month just to keep a constant workforce. This is around 30 slaves a day.
Most communities in the wastes seems to be between 10 and 100 habitants in size, with the major towns and trading communities being around the thousand.
From what I get of the setting, population density is relatively low in the wastes, Hoofington being the exception rather than the norm.
Let's imagine that in the totality of the Wastes (Post-War Equestria), there's still a million ponies living, all ages included.
If we assume that ponies have a similar development cycle as humans, You have to wait between 12 and 15 years for a pony to be in age to reproduce without long term health problems =>IRL, a girl could have a kid as soon as she has her first periods, but not being fully grown if she were to have a kid it would damage her internal organs, leading to a high number of stillborn foetuses and death-by-childbirth.
I don't know what's the reproductive cycle of ponies, but for the sake of arguments, let's assume it's similar to humans.
So, if we were totally atrocious and made mares into child-factories as soon as they can, they could theoretically produce around 6 kids before they reach their twenties. And these kids will need to wait another 12 to 15 years for half of them (statistically) to be able to produce another batch of kids.
Given the horrible life conditions in the wastes, it's very possible that 50% of all the kids will die before reaching breeding age.
Where am I getting at ?
My point is that at the rate at which Red Eyes forces lead people to die, be it by warfare or brutal exploitation, in ten years the Wastes would have lost more than 100000 ponies from slavery alone, which represent 10% of the hypothetical population of 1 million ponies in the Wastes.
And this is a conservative estimate.
So either the Wastes are far more populated than I think, or Red Eye was the worst thing to happen to Equestria since the bombs fell.
So, what would be my plan if I were in his place ?
Well, first, not killing those I want to protect in the long term would be a good start.
To build a new civilization, you need manpower. You can't get around that. So I'll have to use slaves, the only ready source of manpower in the wastes.
But let's be smart about it. Slaves cost something to buy, and unless like Red Eye I can mint my own caps, I'll need to be careful with that. And not even talking about the problem of depopulating the wasteland if I get too careless about slaves life-expectancy, there's a point where supply will have difficulties to meet demands, if only because all the closest settlements will have been raided for manpower already.
So, I have all the incentives to see my slaves be at least healthy enough not to die working for me.
What that mean is, be ready for that : I need to provide some form of Universal Healthcare to my slaves.
Ironic ? That's roughly what happened in the real world. Slave-owner have real incentives not to see their slave dies, because it cost money to replace them, and slave-labor, at its most basic level, is used in order to diminish costs. So for economic reasons slave-owners have to keep their slaves healthy enough for them not to die AND stay productive.
So, Universal Healthcare. Nothing really fancy, just get a production line of Hydra, Healing Potions, Rad-Away, etc... and dispense them as necessary to your slaves. And have a number of docs you pay well enough for them to take good care of the cases that can't be treated just with chems.
But it's probable you don't have that much chems, and your soldiers will also use them, so you have to reduce consumption. But you want everyone to be healthy. So what do you do ? You diminish the sources of injuries and illness that would cause these chems to be used.
This mean that you punish your guardians if they hurt slaves in any way. This mean you make your slaves work only eight to ten hours per day, and allow them to take breaks during work hours, in supplement of their mid-shift meal break. This mean you make sure to reduce sources of injuries at their workstations. Etc...
Maybe you will produce less shit per hour. Maybe. But I don't think being 50% less productive has much impact when you're at such scales, considering what I said above regarding the Manpower Problem.
So, now you have relatively healthy slaves that are productive. What do ?
Well, you have to feed all these people. And when you work at such scales, you can't just rely on trade. So you have to establish your own agricultural colonies.
But, wait, basically, you're already building an Empire at this point. So this mean you must defend it.
So you build an armed force. But you can't rely on “reconverted” raiders and Griffin mercenaries. You have to create an institution, with cadres, and training facilities and people trained to train your soldiers.
So this mean building Schools.
There's a problem, now. You have lots of slaves, a good portion of them in remote locations you can't directly control ; and even if they are guarded by your military, and even if they are well treated, they are still slaves and they are still bound to try to escape. This pose a problem. As we have seen, manpower is rare enough as it is in the wastes, that you can't allow much “waste” in your human resources management techniques. So you can't just kill the slaves who try to escapes and be done with it, it would be grossly inefficient.
You have to be -smart-.
We have already seen that everyone working for you has a ready access to food and universal healthcare, and pretty good working conditions. They are also protected from raiders, and from abuse by their guardians.
At this point, their living conditions are probably better than most of the rest of the wasteland.
So why are they still slaves ? There's no doubt most of them would voluntarily work for you to benefit from all the advantages listed above.
Let's be intelligent, and do the following : when you buy your slaves, you tell them “For one Year, you will work for me as slaves. But even if work will be hard, you will be fed, protected, and taken care off. After your one year of servitude, you will have earned Citizenship in my Empire. You will still be fed, protected and taken care off, and free to go away as you wish. But know that we take care of our own, and if you have any problem, you can get back to us, we will do what we can to help you.”
At this point, probably 80% of your slaves will happily stay by your side even after their one year of servitude is over.
And your citizens are now free to work for you at the best of their capabilities, to join your schools, to add their competences to your workforce, or even to join your Army.
Voilà, you have a pretty solid basis for an Empire without being unnecessarily cruel. Be proud of you, have a congratulatory cookie.Harmony Ltd. wrote:Even if there was one thousand slaves in Fillydelphia instead of ten, it would still mean that after ten year the Wasteland would have lost one percent of its population in ten years from Red Eye's slavery alone. Maybe it could be offset by enough child birth, but that's still a demographic apocalypse in not-total-wartime conditions.
Also, my estimate, as far as rate of attrition goes, was really conservative, and if we go by the descriptions made in the stories (FoE and MN7), the real rate of attrition is likely to be around four times higher. So 4% of a population of a million instead of 1%.
Point is, Red Eye's slavery is HARDLY sustainable for more than a decade, and it seems that by the time Littlepip got out of Stable 2 it had been going on for at least four years, I think. Maybe even more, I have nothing solid on that, just an impression.
As for the the Army, that's pretty much my point : you can't rely on mercenaries, be them griffins or hired raiders - though you would need at least to hire griffins in the first hours of your adventure.
You have to convert your slaves into soldiers at one point or another. And if you want to do it right (ie : not have them be as bad as raiders), you have to "raise" them in an appropriate environment, and promote the appropriate "culture". Thus, the necessity of a competent Officer Corp, and educated NCOs to rein in the troops.
And yeah, MN7 was what led me to believe that Filly has at least ten thousand workers - even just the description of the work shift in Wicked Slit's factory alone seems to indicate (IMHO) AT LEAST a hundred ponies, most likely two or maybe even three. And her factory is just one among a number of others, and it's only one workshift of the two or three there's in a day. Do the math.Harmony Ltd. wrote:Also, a little precision : I'm basing my figure of "1 million ponies in the wasteland" by making a parallel with the NCR from the original Fallout series :
By the time of New Vegas, the NCR goes from San Diego, and even La Baja (Mexican California) in the South, to Oregon in the North, and Nevada / Las Vegas in the East.
At the time of Fallout 2, the geographical extension of the NCR was lesser than that, and it was said (in an NCR propaganda holodisk) that the NCR was home to roughly 700,000 people (human, ghouls and supermutants together).
I'm rolling with the idea that all thing considered, Equestria has a land area roughly equal to that of the NCR as of New Vegas, and a similar population density, or even slightly higher. Thus, around a million ponies.
Something occurred to me last night: what if the mass loss of life was eventually incorporated into the plan? At the beginning it was probably just "Yes, this is unsustainable, but it's a stopgap." As time went on, though, the difficulty of fully civilizing the slavers in his workforce would become apparent, leading to the working in of the unsustainability. The slavers, after all, would resist reforms much less if they had no other options due to a scarcity of slaves; while there'd be some idiot holdouts, most would eventually come to recognize that they weren't getting any new ones and had better take care of the ones they have. The depletion also has the advantage of clearing the way for the more "civilized" ponies of the future; once the reforms are in, Red Eye's foals have started assuming positions of power, and Red Eye himself has ascended to godhood and gained a personal army of alicorns to keep the remaining subversive elements of the population in line, expansion of his ponies into the rest of Equestria can be for the most part free of guilt and "moral soiling". Sure, it's terrible what the previous generation did to the people who used to live here, but, well, that's not our fault, is it? And we might as well take advantage of the land that that freed up...Harmony Ltd. wrote:Red Eye analysis
The GPE might be a problem in this plan, though; depending on how the war with them went (assuming that there would eventually have been a war and that it wouldn't be a total loss, since a total loss would be failure of the plan anyway), the slavers might be able to take large numbers of pegasi, delaying the reforms becoming obviously and immediately necessary. A negotiated peace might actually be better for Red Eye, under this plan, than a full conquest; it would probably also be easier, given that roughly a third or so of Red Eye's forces would be unable to fight the GPE on its home territory.
What do you think?
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Fuzzy Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:22 am
Generally, I agree with Harmony Ltd on basically every point, which might surprise some folks. Red Eye's current status isn't sustainable, but I never personally believe it was supposed to be (as you mention, O. Hinds).
The wasteland is filled to the brim with uneducated, sick, unfit, violent, drug abused, selfish or badly antagonistic ponies. These aren't the kind you can just point at a job and say "Hey, do that and I'll give you some food." Survival instincts and 'lone wolf' mentalities run wild in that sort of environment and attempting to craft a workforce for rebuilding something no-pony actually knows about or understands the magnitude of is going to be a doomed endevour.
Not to mention, an incredibly slow one. And Red Eye can't count on there being somepony else as charismatic and "well intended" (loosely said) as him to not simply take over after he dies and undo everything he spent his life slowly building toward. Red Eye needs a framework to base a future self sustaining growth on...and he needs it fast.
This is my theory. Red Eye never intended to created a 'better world', he simply intended to force rush out a framework and a rough gist of what would take on a life of its own and continue to unstoppably grow long after he had passed away. (Or become a God, whatever)
His plan seems to support this theory. He's preparing a new wave of foals to take the reigns of this framework. Who will both steer it and work it on their own rights. He is creating a generation of better ponies who are not as uneducated and ill-directed as the wastelanders...while using the slaves to knock together something they can inherit and use. Once this comes into play, Red Eye's slavery will very likely quickly fade away.
Of course, we all know that never happened in the end, but that's the future.
FOE supports this a lot, Red Eye never talks of slavery being an ongoing thing, but simply a means to a short term goal which will "kickstart" a new method that is better supported and most importantly protected due to the arms race he kicked off. (Red Eye himself admitted he never forsaw the Enclave going quite as over the top in response as they did)
Really, I think the best way that he looked on it was that the current generation of ponies were 99% waste. Whos only good they could do was via being forced into manual labour to give the next generation something better. For those caught up in it? Well, tough luck, take comfort in making a better world, right?
Well, for poor slaves, they won't see it like that and we then enter the nightmare of Fillydelphia. The destruction of a generation to save the next one. A short term brutal life of work, toil and sacrifice of both body, mind and life to smash out the framework for a better world. Not a saved world...but one that the next generation might be able to use in a way that isn't based on forced labour and horror.
At the very core...corrupted generosity. Destroying to give.
The wasteland is filled to the brim with uneducated, sick, unfit, violent, drug abused, selfish or badly antagonistic ponies. These aren't the kind you can just point at a job and say "Hey, do that and I'll give you some food." Survival instincts and 'lone wolf' mentalities run wild in that sort of environment and attempting to craft a workforce for rebuilding something no-pony actually knows about or understands the magnitude of is going to be a doomed endevour.
Not to mention, an incredibly slow one. And Red Eye can't count on there being somepony else as charismatic and "well intended" (loosely said) as him to not simply take over after he dies and undo everything he spent his life slowly building toward. Red Eye needs a framework to base a future self sustaining growth on...and he needs it fast.
This is my theory. Red Eye never intended to created a 'better world', he simply intended to force rush out a framework and a rough gist of what would take on a life of its own and continue to unstoppably grow long after he had passed away. (Or become a God, whatever)
His plan seems to support this theory. He's preparing a new wave of foals to take the reigns of this framework. Who will both steer it and work it on their own rights. He is creating a generation of better ponies who are not as uneducated and ill-directed as the wastelanders...while using the slaves to knock together something they can inherit and use. Once this comes into play, Red Eye's slavery will very likely quickly fade away.
Of course, we all know that never happened in the end, but that's the future.
FOE supports this a lot, Red Eye never talks of slavery being an ongoing thing, but simply a means to a short term goal which will "kickstart" a new method that is better supported and most importantly protected due to the arms race he kicked off. (Red Eye himself admitted he never forsaw the Enclave going quite as over the top in response as they did)
Really, I think the best way that he looked on it was that the current generation of ponies were 99% waste. Whos only good they could do was via being forced into manual labour to give the next generation something better. For those caught up in it? Well, tough luck, take comfort in making a better world, right?
Well, for poor slaves, they won't see it like that and we then enter the nightmare of Fillydelphia. The destruction of a generation to save the next one. A short term brutal life of work, toil and sacrifice of both body, mind and life to smash out the framework for a better world. Not a saved world...but one that the next generation might be able to use in a way that isn't based on forced labour and horror.
At the very core...corrupted generosity. Destroying to give.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Moodyman90 Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:37 pm
Granted I do need to re-read FOE, but what I remember agrees with what Fuzzy said.
Red Eye always did go on to Little Pip about how he's only doing what he did to provide a future for the next generation, especially for the foals under his care.
But I love how these stories can bring up such deep and varied conversations.
Red Eye always did go on to Little Pip about how he's only doing what he did to provide a future for the next generation, especially for the foals under his care.
But I love how these stories can bring up such deep and varied conversations.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by O. Hinds Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:46 pm
Harmony Ltd. wrote:RE : "Red Eye Analysis"
Well, just to say how shitty my previous post was, I managed to get mixed-up between Camo and Rum
Anyway...
First, Camo. You say that feeding 10K slaves would cost a fuck lot. That's true. That's why you don't pay for food. You use the slaves to grow the food.
In parallel, if they're well fed, and in good physical condition, they're also in better condition to revolt. That is also true. But that's why from the start you have to present them with the Carrot that you're going to not only free them, but give them stuff after one year of service (Full Citizenship and the associated rights).
The goal, at medium-term, is to offer conditions of employment such that you can eliminate the need for slavery altogether as people will want to join you and work for / with you of their own will. Slavery is just a stop-gap measure. [note : As for the logistic of the thing, I want to say "It's the economy, stupid" : who say you have to use caps for internal trade ? And who say you have to play by free-market rules in your internal economy ? If you control the food supply from top to bottom, and are self-sustaining from that point of view, you already eliminated most of the need for internal trade - and you could just provide your workers with "Credits" for trade inside the Empire/Republic/Whatever]
Regarding the establishment of a new Nation upon the ashes of the Old World, I'll draw a parallel : in Fallout, how was the NCR built ? You had a little agricultural community, Shady Sands, that through the vision and charism of its leaders Aradesh and Tandi, managed to rally years after years more and more communities into a bigger whole, which by working together, united under a common Law, managed to build something greater that they could individually achieve.
And they achieved that without slaves. Or, more accurately, they achieved that -because- they didn't have slaves. That's my uneducated opinion, at least.
For me, the Original Sin of Red Eye, was his lack of faith in the capacity of something good to be achieved without him at the helm. This skewed all his plans from the get go to be achieved under a very limited timespan, forcing the use of methods that can be, at best, described as inhumane (inequine ?).
Losing faith in the abilities of ponies to do good - when all of pre-war Equestrian History was a shining example of the contrary, he locked himself into a worldview that was destructive to his own long-term vision.
That would be my main criticism of him as a Leader - everything else is just a consequence of it.
I do not doubt that Red Eye found a way to incorporate the high rate of casualties brought by his activities into his plan, and knowing how ruthless the character is in his pursuit of his Vision, I wouldn't be surprised he went with it. And Fuzzy's points ring true.
This won't stop me from saying, though, that Red Eye was blinded by his personal experience to the possibilities of doing things a better way.
He and his companions may have done all the calculations, thought all the contingency plans ; their basic assumption were, in my opinion, flawed.
The same way Littlepip had been formatted by her life in Stable 2 to think that only a Princess could rule over the land, Red Eye had been convinced that to hold power could only lead someone to become a Monster.
This is Red Eye's tragedy : hurt and betrayed, unable to ever trust again, and convinced to be one at the bottom of his heart consciously condemning himself to be a Monster in his acts.
He had rationalized his choices. But they remain born of emotions.
He is, indeed, Corrupted Generosity.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by O. Hinds Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:46 pm
Indeed.Moodyman90 wrote:But I love how these stories can bring up such deep and varied conversations.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Doctor Whooves Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:10 pm
Just added a song to that musical inspiration list. Eheh.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Fuzzy Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:27 pm
Somehow, I just knew that'd happen. :p
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by hawkeye92 Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:48 pm
I actually really hate spoilers, the speculation was pretty much as you said, a tool for getting a better idea of what readers are thinking.
The discussion about Red Eye is interesting. I agree with most of the points and I like to imagine Fillydelphia as being huge, but I tend to imagine things on a grander scale anyway.
I imagine Equestria as being huge- continent spanning and there are hundreds, if not thousands of small towns and villages clinging on in the wasteland but they're never explored because there's no reason to. Also they are still extremely spread out so the population density is still extremely low. But Red Eye buys slaves from all over for a hefty sum of caps (because people don't realise what inflation is when he has a bottle press), so there are slavers carting ponies from every corner of the land to Filly. Most likely by rail.
But that's just my headcannon, your mileage may vary.
The discussion about Red Eye is interesting. I agree with most of the points and I like to imagine Fillydelphia as being huge, but I tend to imagine things on a grander scale anyway.
I imagine Equestria as being huge- continent spanning and there are hundreds, if not thousands of small towns and villages clinging on in the wasteland but they're never explored because there's no reason to. Also they are still extremely spread out so the population density is still extremely low. But Red Eye buys slaves from all over for a hefty sum of caps (because people don't realise what inflation is when he has a bottle press), so there are slavers carting ponies from every corner of the land to Filly. Most likely by rail.
But that's just my headcannon, your mileage may vary.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by O. Hinds Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:39 pm
For comparison, my headcanon, as may be seen on my map, makes Equestria roughly the size of Germany.hawkeye92 wrote:But that's just my headcannon, your mileage may vary.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Admiral Stoic Rum Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:54 pm
a third the size of Texas
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Moodyman90 Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:13 pm
Anybody seen or heard from Fuzzy lately?
Though I guess between recovering from his wrist and the holidays he just hasn't had time to let us know anything.
Edit: Scratch that, he's been keeping everybody updated on Tumblr, I just didn't look to see if there was any newer post till now.
Though I guess between recovering from his wrist and the holidays he just hasn't had time to let us know anything.
Edit: Scratch that, he's been keeping everybody updated on Tumblr, I just didn't look to see if there was any newer post till now.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by RoboRed Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:09 pm
He also just made a blog post on fimfiction.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Fuzzy Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:15 pm
Hey guys,
I'm sorry I've not really been posting across to here as much lately over the holidays, but it's all been a nightmare keeping things updated where I have!
But suffice to say, we're past it and while I'm still fighting some issues, MN7 is going to be kicking off all over again. Chapter 16 will be released this weekend. :)
Thanks for all your patience guys.
I'm sorry I've not really been posting across to here as much lately over the holidays, but it's all been a nightmare keeping things updated where I have!
But suffice to say, we're past it and while I'm still fighting some issues, MN7 is going to be kicking off all over again. Chapter 16 will be released this weekend. :)
Thanks for all your patience guys.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Cptadder Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:18 pm
Fuzzy I'm still weeks and weeks and weeks behind. You got a chapter this week? Then I look forward to it, in fact I'm going to catch up just so I can read it in the proper order. It has been six months but I can change!
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Fuzzy Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:53 pm
Hahaha, it's alright man! Really, when I say "issues" I mean more medical than anything. So I'm just picking up speed again more than anything!
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by Cptadder Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:18 pm
I'm over there, page 1, PAGE 1 of this thread and I'm five chapters behind there's no excuse since you did not annoy me enough to quit or anything I just stopped reading as business picked up and I moved from a place where I was the relevant person to report unauthorized usage of the internet during business hours to the guy who reports to the person who determines what constitutes unauthorized internet usage. And my time for reading fell way off.Fuzzy wrote:Hahaha, it's alright man! Really, when I say "issues" I mean more medical than anything. So I'm just picking up speed again more than anything!
Still I will read, I swear it, one of the days... when I'm in the home my lotto wining will have purchased for me I'll read it...
Or this Monday I've got a short day Monday and six hours to babysit a server and I can bring a netbook with me a sneak in an offline copy.
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Re: Fallout Equestria: Murky Number Seven
by tylertoon2 Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:16 pm
I thought this would be a great song for the fic.
The Whole album as whole is very fitting.
The Whole album as whole is very fitting.
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