[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Mister Nikel wrote:However I was confused about the magic beam technology. I thought that before Littlehorn incident the war was just "on paper" so to speak and wasn't as big of a conflict and the ministries were not founded yet and as a result beam magic weapons were not developed at that point. Then again it's a dream soooooo...

What the war did was refine it, expand it, simplify its use, and mass produce it, but the basic magic existed already. While magical energy weapons like that would be uncommon at the time, these are building-mounted weapons that Luna herself had a hoof in building.

TheLastDefend wrote:I feel like if monogamous relationships are completely alien to Blackjack then she should of had some response to this "I’m glad I was finally able to do that with you. I don’t want to do it with anypony else.” Back in chapter 22. After Sygius It feels like there's a sentence missing.

I believe that the issue here is the difference between making love and just having sex. Stygius and everyone Blackjack has been with except Glory, they were just sex. The strongest emotional bond involved would be friendship, and even that would often be iffy, I expect.

Meleagridis wrote:...

Honestly, I think you're right. And I'm being part of the problem. Which means it is time to get happy. Excuse me for a minute, I need to go brew coffee. Out of coffee, making tea.

Here's what I like about tea. First off, I can enjoy tea slowly - really savor the flavors. Heck, you can just smell it and it makes you feel... better, somehow. It's also a great palette cleanser! And it goes well with almost anything. It's cocoa for when you don't want something too sweet, it's coffee for when you don't want a jolt of energy... I don't drink it often, but it's always lovely when I do.

jacky2734 wrote:
Hey Everybody, I bet you can't write a monologue using the following prompt:
"Charity reveals her plot to take over the Hoof to Blackjack."

Challenge accepted like Applebloom accepts cash or credit!

Spoiler:

Now someone else go and do better, with an actual monologue instead of this mess! (I think I realized why I never seem to write monologues - too many of my main characters are very, very rude...)

Necr0maNceR wrote:how come Lionheart can speak the normal pony language while the other batponies cannot?

My interpretation is that the "modern" Lunar Guard like Lionheart are pegasi with a uniform illusion on their armor to make them look like batponies out of a sense of tradition. The true batponies are mutants who've been living underground since before Luna's return, having gone into hiding after Nightmare Moon. So the armor they wore would be forged by themselves, or date back thousands of years to the original Lunar Guard which was disbanded after the Nightmare. Language-wise, Lionheart and the other recent Guards would be speaking normally but with amplification, batponies would speak their own ultrasonic language taking advantage of their modified vocal chords and hearing. Either their ability to speak Equestrian was evolved away in the last 1200 years in a cave full of mutagenic mushrooms, or they just don't remember and it's really hard to figure out how to speak "normally" with a voice adapted to navigate tunnels, blast enemies, and talk to other bats, so he just learned to write instead.

Jeremyrush wrote:"Procrastinating; wasn’t that the word?" She came up with betwixt and she doesn't know what procrastinating means? What kinda education did they give you in that Stable?

I suspect she spent most of it, you know, betwixt things.

MAD doesn't work. It only makes things worse.

I dunno, it's worked pretty well on earth for about fifty years now.

how long do these ponies live? 25 years?

I was under the impression that they had human-equivalent lifespans.

NoodleNugget wrote:On a side note, would it be okay for me to post my drawings here?

YES.

SilentCarto wrote:I don't quite understand all the Blackjack hate.

It's simple; most of us grew up knowing that heterosexual monogamous relationships were the only form of love that was honest or genuine, and that anything outside of that was perverted and evil. Over time pretty much anyone following this story would have to have managed to unlearn the "heterosexual" part of that, but they still think that love is something that happens between two people, that sex and love are inextricably entwined, and thus that if you love one person and have sex with another it's the worst form of betrayal.

Now, I admit that I might be completely misunderstanding the whole concept, but I can't see a difference between romantic love and the love between very close friends or family, other than the sexual aspect. And that lust seems largely disconnected from the love itself from what I've seen. If you are in a relationship with someone who considers emotional and physical intimacy tied and believes in monogamy, then having sex with someone else is a form of betrayal; you took something that they considered to be special and exclusive between the two of you and gave it to somebody else. But outside of cultural norms or personal preference, there's really no reason that sex and love need to be connected, or why love has to be only between couples.
(Asexual here, so I have no firsthand experience with sexual attraction and am going off books, conversations, and observations of others. If there is a form of love that's inextricably attached to sex, I'll never experience it, but none of the evidence I can find indicates the existence of such a thing. Also never "fallen in love" in the storybook sense, but my observations indicate that's just lust and infatuation; everyone I've heard of who fell madly in love in the real world either died for it or fell madly out of love somewhere between a week and a decade later, leading to most of the divorces and abusive families and such. I do have friends whose well-being I value more than my own, and most of the successful long-term romantic relationships seem to be a variant on that emotion, but stronger.)

Kattlarv wrote:am I the only one that's a bit "meh" about the
"love is in bloom" song? It is great, but imo, I found it rather
"preachy". I know they have to "give good christian values" to be
allowed to be shown, but eh. And imo, it lacked backstory imo, since
like, it seems like they met just a week ago or something, express
teenage weeding anyone?

They met at least a decade ago; Cadence was looking after Twilight as a blankflank, and now she's a grad student. And in this case we can confirm that they genuinely and strongly love each other rather than it being some passing infatuation; not only were Shiny's feelings strong enough to be converted into enough energy to overpower the God-Empress, but when the two of them got together is seemed to be on par with the Fire of Friendship, and almost approaching Element-level. The 'beautiful bride, handsome groom' bit might be pushing for the standard heterosexual monogamy again, but I like to think that the song was formulated specifically for the couple in question. (Really, all logic says that most ponies are either polygamous or lesbian)

Somber wrote:Sigh... looks like I screwed up the chapter after all... sorry...

LIES
Now stop apologizing and admit that you did something that might not suck before I have to come over there and tell you in person!

Mister Nikel wrote:

Nah, Tolkien's got nothing on Somber.

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:

I for one welcome our new overlord.


Alright, I have always loved Glory. The combination of adorableness and brilliance...it's like somebody took the best parts of Fluttershy and Twilight and gave her a gatling laser! What's not to like?
Lacunae... I think I'm quite fond of her, but don't know enough to be sure or serious.
P-21 has issues, and has done many things I've hated, but I do like him when he's being... him instead of just being an abuse victim or a drug addict. In another world...
I love Rampage.
I love Scotch.
Boo is adorable, but we haven't seen much of a personality.
Whisper... I want to hate her. But I can't. She's been rapidly growing on me ever since we met her again outside of Chapel.
Styg... he's the kind of guy that if I met him IRL I'd always be polite, and grateful for his help, but spend as little time near him as possible. He's... nice, but both uninteresting (personality-wise, not concept-wise) and a little bit annoying in an undefinable way. Plus the part where about 2/3 of what we've seen from him has boiled down to "me horny. sex nao?"
I hate Sanguine.
I hate Steel Rain.
I hate the Goddess.
Goldenblood... is problematic. The most dangerous of foes are the ones that combine a little power with a lot of intelligence; it's impossible to fight them or even deal with their aftermath without understanding them, who they are, why they did what they did. And those kinds of opponents, when you get to know them, are almost never just monsters. And when you get to know someone who isn't a monster, it becomes damn near impossible to hate them. I know that he's done some of the worst things for some of the best reasons... now I need to know more, to decide whether he was a stallion with good intentions who became corrupted and turned evil, or if he did what he had to do and made things better in the end.

Alright... it took til 2 in the morning, a day late, before I could finally read 44, but I finally got my chance to read it!

It was definitely a little unusual, but I think it was a solid enough chapter, that you have nothing to be sorry about, Somber.
Especially Blackjack's dream - that was my favorite part of the chapter - it was so absolutely chock-full of adorableness.

I'll try my best to do my full review in a more timely manner this time, sir, though I know I'm already a day behind.
Thank you, for writing this story for us, Somber. *hugs*

Nightmare Moon wrote:I thought she'd gotten over that after everything she's been through with P-21? I mean, if she hasn't changed from that POV, then I'm starting to lose what respect I had for her.

She's stopped thinking of them that way, but that doesn't mean she's shaken the subconscious thought patterns entirely. Notice that she never once considered that Stygilicious might want to make it more than a one night stand. Because every male she's ever been with has been exactly that.

swicked wrote:I liked to pretend that P-21 would have gotten to him later, but who am I kidding... no matter what P-21 wants to do, Blackjack is who tells him what he WILL do. He has no spine and will never be able to grow one while under her thumb like this.

P-21 forms the Id of the power trio. He wants to act on his anger, hurt, and fear. He doesn't want to kill bad ponies to keep them from doing bad things, he wants to use their badness as an excuse to kill. That's why BJ has to keep him on a short leash -- he's just looking for a justification. It's not that she doesn't side with him a lot, he just bitches loudly when she doesn't.

Glory is the Superego. She's logical, over-civilized, and naive. She wants to follow all the social rules and expects everyone else to, too, even outside of the society they apply to. She's about to get a harsh lesson in that.

Standing between them, Blackjack is the Ego, the Kirk. She has to restrain P-21 (and her own vengeful impulses) and warn Glory against the realities of the wasteland.

TheLastDefender wrote:...she did say she had some pent up resentment for Glory. So that's what I'm going with.

You might well be right on that. Taking her Stable upbringing as an excuse to do something she knows will hurt Glory... it's totally possible. Depends on which particular layer of "fucked up and crazy" is running the show at the moment, I guess.

swicked wrote:But seriously, some homeless dude breaks into a bakery or something at night to get out of the cold and to get something to eat.
Explain his punishment!
Some dude forgets, or just didn't know how in the first place, to securely attach his bike to the back of his car. It falls off and causes a twelve car pileup. What happens to him?

You seem to be leaving out the responsibility that BJ talked about with Dealer. So this guy needed to get out of the cold and eat something. Can he pay for the damage he caused and the product he consumed? If the answer is yes -- for example, if I were the one stumbling through a blizzard, and I found a shop I could use as shelter -- then I'm prepared not to stress over it. If not, he has materially harmed the shop owner. Are they supposed to just eat the cost of the lost food and replacing their window? If they do decide not to press charges, that's out of the kindness of their hearts, not because what he did wasn't wrong.

The guy with the bike is responsible for an enormous amount of damage and injury through simple negligence, and therefore should make restitution at the very least. But how are you supposed to make restitution for death or permanent injury? You just can't. Thus, the laws are already arranged to deal with negligent manslaughter and the like.

Necr0maNceR wrote:I do not know what you are trying to say. I already pointed out the enchantment on the armor. For starters, all the enchantment is supposed to do is let Lionheart talk loud. He doesn't say "thou speakest", "thy" or the royal "we" like Luna did, so the armor isn't letting him speak "Ye Olde Equestrian" or anything like that. To say that it is altering his voice not only to make it louder, but to form syllables that a batpony cannot form regularly is already a stretch as it is. The thing is, you may be saying that is Somber's intention now, but the fact is, it still hasn't been stated in the story. That's why it doesn't make sense. If Somber specifically states that in the story, than there isn't a problem.

Well, the batponies clearly speak Equestrian, since they can understand BJ just fine -- they just speak it in the ultrasonic range. There would be no reason for Luna to enchant a bunch of spare suits of armor, just the ones they keep in Canterlot. Presumably, the batponies would have a number of sets for training purposes, since there don't seem to be enough Lunar Guards to run a boot camp.

jacky2734 wrote:(What really caught my attention during her dream) If her dream was an altered memory of Psalm's, then that means Pound and Pumpkin survived Littlehorn. I don't know about you, but this made me smile a little. I'm a sucker for the kids.

Yup! So it would seem. I have to admit that made me smile a little too. But only a little, knowing what the next few hours hold...

jacky2734 wrote:So, moonstone, in sufficient quantities, will dissolve star metal. This supports my theory that PH is a megaspell designed to bring the moon down on Hoofington to destroy TEoS.(Interesting note: the interaction between starmetal and moonstone seems to be similar to the reaction between Matter and Antimatter.)

Mmm... maybe. Somehow I don't think so. Starfall, maybe, but that doesn't quite sound right for "Horizons".

jacky2734 wrote:Blackjack got laid. Yay??? Am I the only one who's kinda wishing I was Stygius during that scene?

I can neither confirm nor deny this.

jacky2734 wrote:So BJ can somehow hook up to cameras and watch what they've recorded, weird but interesting.

I don't think so. Remember what Happyhorn told her -- the recordings implanted via Hank will activate whenever her own vision synchronizes with the recording. She got them all back in Hippocratic, but she has to be in the right place to see them.

Nightmare Moon wrote:Well, since Cadence used to be Twi's sitter I'd think she and Shining met a long time ago, but it really doesn't give much background on how long they've been together. I'd HOPE they've been together a while, but without actual quotes on it, it does seem like they haven't been together long. You'd think Shining would've at least said he was dating Cadence during one of his supposed visits with Twi, right?

Twi said she'd kind of lost touch with him since she moved to Ponyville. When you get right down to it, she dropped out of his everyday life pretty suddenly. I like to imagine him getting together with Cadence (as a friend) the day after the pilot, saying, "Wow, did you hear what little Twilie did?" And he suddenly realizes that he doesn't have to be the Big Brother anymore, and starts thinking about his own future...

Somber wrote:Sigh... looks like I screwed up the chapter after all... sorry...

Nobody said they were mad at you. They're mad at BJ in the same way you'd be mad at a sibling or friend who's screwing up their life before your eyes.

Look -- nobody would be upset at BJ if they didn't care what happened to her and to Glory. That means they've emotionally invested in the characters, which is what every author wants their reader to do. Ergo, authorial win!

Oops, one more edit, Hinds -- Goldenblood said "Tenpony Tower". It wasn't called that back then -- he should say something along the lines of, "The MAS nearly burned down their Manehattan Hub..."

(Last post was written rather sleepily, and so is this, expect more derps.)

@Scyto: (BJ in this chapter) It's coo, it's not being an idiot, it' being... rational? I dunno what to call it, but yeah, it brings up the: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=R7jFcV1FZ3Y#t=238s in Blackjack. (watch to 4:30)

Totally unrelated and not entirely "clean": "Blackjack: Drink responsibly, may be hazardous to health over long times of exposure."

@Ketchup: (BJ) Can agree she seemed very off in this chapter. Could be her sleep deprivation, or something something kicking in.

@Waffle: (Slightly "rougher" topics, so hiding this)

Spoiler:

@Silent: (Best nickname) Now, I have to say that "Swagathor" is still rather high up on my list xP

@NMM: (Cadance) Yeah, it felt a bit derp the whole "date/meet and propose to pony over the lap of x time without telling anyone about it at all." seems very legit in the MLP world... And like I said, I dislike parts in the song for being "preachy" as said.

@Somber: (BJ) I know, and pay attention to her mentality being different. Especially having to remind myself she is a total doormat in bed. But as said, it just seems she forgot everything she was taught by relationships over the whole course of her journey. Though, her sleep riddle mind might excuse that a bit.

As for Batmane, I know he is made out as extremely desperate and horny, but he's still marked as a rather sleazy "rebound(?)" lay with a very odd personality. I get that they want new gentic material, but as said, if that was me, I'd been more worried over the 1: "I have a partner.", would lower the chance to get laid, and shows neglect for her relationship, hinting towards a more "sex is fun, and go polygamy!" thing for the batponies. 2: "I got raped not to long ago." again, hinting towards not being in the best condition to want sex right now. 3: "I might kill you." + punch just kinda hints towards severe lack of concern for his own health as long as it means he can get semi-cold, emotionless sex. (that, or expecting that things work like "meet stranger, sex, married", in simple terms)

And for "addressing the seahorse". I can see her need to confront it, but I'm very much pondering is this couldn't have been a time for her to take charge for once, it would show herself she was in control of the situation, not just lean back and hope it got solved. It was more a choice between "letting go of all control, again, hoping she could replace the bad feelings and memories with ones proving her mind wrong" or "show to herself she wants this, taking control and proving to herself that this was her choice, that she wanted this." but yeah, overall, Batmane feels a bit like an odd sex toy, there for it's own amusement rather then the one using it.

All and all, I got no idea what "type" of female PoV you got, nor if you avoid me like the plague xD But as said, there's really no gender norms that has to be followed, and while I'd hate to call someone names or such, keep in mind the viewpoint you got might have been VERY coloured by their PoV and experiences. I know mine is. I for example can't stand the "domesticated, submissive pet" female archetype that is popular with most of the males of the counter-archetype.

@Jacky+Swicked: (Gutter) Yeah! Get outa here, this is my home! xD

@Mister: (Goldenblood) Hardly Mary Sueish? Have to object there xP He basically has charisma and intelligence up the ass, knowledge about about everything, plans for about everything, a hook(?) on pretty much everyone, is able to get 99 % of what he wants by talking or deception and whatnot, had a hoof in everything, major control and insight in two counties. Only "flaw" was that he was supposedly weak, fragile and in bad condition, (and somehow despite this, was in great shape and could perform most physical deeds) making him more pity-able, making everyone feel sorry for him. There's more than one type of Mary Sue ;P Not all are just "strong" with physical qualities. The pony had enough linguistic and deception skills to control most of an entire nation, and was able to sway deities, making about anyone forced to look up to him.

I likely am "not seeing it right", but to me he is a power played D&D character. Every flaw is mostly overshadowed by the perk they got.
"My Cha and Int is sky high, but I compensate for this by having 1 in con, and low Str. Oh, and I'll take this undead template, removing my Con score, and this trait here using my Int instead of my str for str checks. I'll take this and this, granting me sick bonuses to all social skills, but to make up for it, I'll take double damage from spells. And on a side note, I'm taking this "spell immune" feat. I'll cut my Dex in half to make up for my high wisdom, and I'll take this feat and perk here, making me use Int instead of dex for AC, and my Wis on my attack rolls." a bit overdone, but eh. Basically, he doesn't really "suffer" from his flaws, sure he is angsty and all that. But as said, "rock in shoe" person, in many occasions.

@Pony lifespans: They have human-like lifespans for all we're told. The mane six is 13-18 years old. Or was when the show started.

@Sindri: (Love is bloom) Point of their relationship being that they apparently had been dating for quite some time in that case, and during all this time (likely years if going with "good values..." I think... or is that just "meet and marry within a month" for some americans? I really don't keep track. Anyhow, as said, during all this time, they supposedly never told anyone a thing right up until "we're getting married!" As for the lyrics, that part, along with "a bond that cannot be undone" made me "meh..." a bit.

@Jacky: (Wanting to be batmane) I can just say I'd rather not be either of them. Partly since 1: sex with virgins generally sucks, unless a more "planned" one, which this was not. 2: To that exact question, my me goes "ew..." xP

Mister Nikel wrote:Goldenblood backed Luna to the very bitter end. Which really makes everything fuzzier, like Psalms mission and the attack on the museum.

I really don't think that's the case. When he showed up at Hippocratic, he had an almost manic air... as if he had just discovered some horrible secret and realized that he's been working for the wrong side all this time, and now he had nothing to lose as he struggled to undo the damage he caused, too little, too late.

Mister Nikel wrote:However I was confused about the magic beam technology. I thought that before Littlehorn incident the war was just "on paper" so to speak and wasn't as big of a conflict and the ministries were not founded yet and as a result beam magic weapons were not developed at that point. Then again it's a dream soooooo...

What, you mean in the defense systems? Littlehorn didn't use the incineration spells that emerged later. It was a slashing, lightning-like discharge that we've seen in no hand weapons since then -- probably inefficient as combat magic goes. Mounted defenses would precede hand weapons by quite a bit in a case like this.

TheLastDefender wrote:I feel like if monogamous relationships are completely alien to Blackjack then she should of had some response to this "I’m glad I was finally able to do that with you. I don’t want to do it with anypony else.” Back in chapter 22.

Eh, not really. So Glory doesn't want anyone else -- so what? Her loss. BJ made it pretty clear before that sex and love are disparate things for her -- in fact, she was worried that getting physical with Glory would reduce their existing relationship to the level of all BJ's others. She was happy when that didn't happen, but from BJ's perspective, their love is therefore unassailable by a vastly lesser relationship with Styggie. It would be like Glory getting mad because she went out to dinner with the batpony.

Glory is operating under the assumption that relationships default to monogamy, while BJ is under the assumption that it's just having fun unless someone says otherwise. BJ is going to perceive Glory as being possessive and unfair for laying down rules without telling BJ what they are.

Anyway, it's a male, which is different. Right? Right?

Kattlarv wrote:As for Batmane, I know he is made out as extremely desperate and horny, but he's still marked as a rather sleazy "rebound(?)" lay with a very odd personality.

In his defense, he backed off after she explained herself. He indicated that he was willing to be 'just friends' until and unless she got her head together. She was the one who brought the subject up again.

swicked wrote:So... they're figments of her imagination?

Not at all. I'm speaking from a storytelling perspective -- Blackjack, P-21, and Glory have the same dynamic as Kirk, McCoy, and Spock: a leader balancing the emotionally driven character and the logically driven character. P-21 and Glory trade roles slightly relative to McCoy and Spock, with P-21 adding Spock's cold pragmatism to his emotional responses while Glory expresses McCoy's moral idealism through her logic, but that just serves to make them each a more three-dimensional character.

Somber wrote:Sigh... looks like I screwed up the chapter after all... sorry...

Well, I didn't really enjoy the amount of time that was spent on sexual subjects. I don't know why I'm not grossed out by violence, but, horse sex... not for me. I guess I wasn't too fond of this chapter, but I see that you're trying to do something here, so I'll see how it plays out. Considering this is Project Horizons we're talking about, we're probably in for something awesome.

SilentCarto wrote:
Eh, not really. So Glory doesn't want anyone else -- so what? Her loss. BJ made it pretty clear before that sex and love are disparate things for her -- in fact, she was worried that getting physical with Glory would reduce their existing relationship to the level of all BJ's others. She was happy when that didn't happen, but from BJ's perspective, their love is therefore unassailable by a vastly lesser relationship with Styggie. It would be like Glory getting mad because she went out to dinner with the batpony.

Glory is operating under the assumption that relationships default to monogamy, while BJ is under the assumption that it's just having fun unless someone says otherwise. BJ is going to perceive Glory as being possessive and unfair for laying down rules without telling BJ what they are.

Anyway, it's a male, which is different. Right? Right?

I'm gonna have to stick to my guns here. Somber stated this is pretty much completely unheard of in the Stable and apparently it's the first time she encounters it in the wastes. So I still think there's a sentence missing where BJ asks why.

O. Hinds wrote:
I believe that the issue here is the difference between making love and just having sex. Stygius and everyone Blackjack has been with except Glory, they were just sex. The strongest emotional bond involved would be friendship, and even that would often be iffy, I expect.

Again the reason I pointed that out is because this situation is completely unheard of yet BJ doesn't ask any questions.

From what I've seen, every criticism of this chapter can be summed up as "Polygamy is the greatest of evils, mmkay?"

Ya'll need to stop being such sticks in the mud. Especially since BJ is going to be in so much trouble with Glory. It'll be amazing.

My my my...this chapter definitely seems to have rustled people's jimmies... (and exploded the topic about 6-7 pages. How's that for ya, NMM?)

My 2 cents on some of the topics:

Blackjack & Stygius: Well, where do I begin here? Blackjack made a serious mistake in having sex with Stiggie. However, I also acknowledge that Blackjack's concept of relationships and sex may be a bit skewed considering her upbringing. That doesn't change the fact that what she did was wrong and is certainly going to hurt Glory in the long run. I also question whether it was a good idea for her to do it so soon in the first place. She's still carrying scars from the events on the Seahorse, but at the same time she's trying to get over them. I think she might be trying a bit too hard too soon, spurred on by aftereffects/afterthoughts from her session with Happyhorn. She really needed sleep more, not sex.

As for Stygius himself, I see no reason to hate him. Overall, he strikes me more as a "recluse, 20-something, sex-obsessed" type of guy. I have no way of measuring his true level of virtue right now. I'm not certain if all his protection and escorting of Blackjack was out of concern or just to get laid. However, he still doesn't strike me as a "hump her n' dump her" sort of guy. Also, it's not like he forced himself on her. Blackjack did warn him several times of her mental condition, and he asked her if she was alright going through with it.

I'm uncertain whether he'll stick around as a party member, though. I keep getting this nagging feeling that somethings going to happen to him in the next chapter...


Depiction of sex in the chapter: Can't say I *cared* too much for it (I have my reasons), but it's not like this was meant with the arousal and sexual enjoyment of the reader in mind. This was used as a plot device, not a clop device. It didn't seem to be much more graphic than the rape scene. Still, my comfort zone was pushed with all that happened.

Bottom line though, what I really wonder the most about all this is what Dealer was up to while Blackjack and Stygius were "rolling in the hay". (*heeheehee*)


Batponies vs. Lionheart: Eh, I think you guys have got this pretty much sorted out. But if nothing else, I'm certain that if you bring the topic enough attention, Somber will find a way to go and fix it.


Glory & Blackjack:

Nightmare Moon wrote:

Rboy474 wrote:Speaking of Glory I'm not sure if y'all have discussed this before but what do you believe will happen to Glory when the Enclave decides to come out of their "hole" metaphorically speaking my vote goes to Face Heel Turn.

I'm leaning toward her having a complete meltdown as she has to choose between siding with Blackjack and her friends, or the Enclave and her family.

Oh god. This. I like this idea.

Factor in the issue of Blackjack almost killing Dusk and having sex with Stygius, and you'll have such a clusterfuck, Glory's loyalty and relationship with Blackjack being put to the test...and possibly breaking and going evil...(*tragedygasm*)

*sigh*...However...

ketchup504 wrote:

Rboy474 wrote:
I'm asking what do you think will happen with Glory when the Enclave arrive. Face Heel Turn is a trope to describe when a good character turns evil.

Oh, you meant Glory.
Definitely not. Glory loves Blackjack, and she resents the Enclave's policies. Plus, they branded her. It wouldn't make sense.

This bit is definitely true.

Forgiveness & justice discussion: Don't you just love morally grey areas?

Nightmare Moon wrote:
Another reason why I have no faith in our justice system, or really the world as a whole...

Well, I don't 100% agree with you, but I'm definitely a misanthrope.

OTHER STUFF:

jacky2734 wrote:Blackjack got laid. Yay??? Am I the only one who's kinda wishing I was Stygius during that scene?

I can say I'm definitely jelly of the fact that he got laid. I wanna get laid.

Kattlarv wrote:
@Everypony: Totally unrelated to
anything before, but am I the only one that's a bit "meh" about the
"love is in bloom" song? It is great, but imo, I found it rather
"preachy". I know they have to "give good christian values" to be
allowed to be shown, but eh. And imo, it lacked backstory imo, since
like, it seems like they met just a week ago or something, express
teenage weeding anyone?

Nope. Listened to the full thing several times and I do not find any of it to be preachy one bit. It's a song describing the happy couple. Besides, they just confirmed the strength of their love by using it to defeat the changelings.

I'll agree in it lacking backstory (the finale had a crapton of plotholes), but I highly doubt that they "just met a week ago" (though it would seem that way from Twilight's perspective ).

swicked wrote:

Nightmare Moon wrote:
Another reason why I have no faith in our justice system, or really the world as a whole...

Ooo... THAT I can get behind.
Nothing is true; everything is permitted!

SWICKIE!!! I'm one of the few that missed you. "Can't imagine why?", you say? It couldn't possibly be because of the hilarious skits of the gang that you've made in the past...

Sorry to hear that your interest in the story has waned. I guess I didn't realize it from your last review. (That, or I completely fucking forgot.)

Where'd you get those pics from?

Somber wrote:Sigh... looks like I screwed up the chapter after all... sorry...
*blah blah blah*
Sorry... I'll try and make the next one better...

Gah...I knew this would happen with all the heated discussions...YOU ALL MADE SOMBER CRY! (I kid.)

No, you did not screw up the chapter. You did push my comfort zone, but that's about it.

swicked wrote:

jacky2734 wrote:"Charity reveals her plot to take over the Hoof to Blackjack."

*snort*
She... she reveals her plot...
...to take over the Hoof...
Bwahahahahaaaa!! XD
She's just a filly, jack! XD

*snerk*

WovenTales wrote:

"Condensed by me with a spoiler tag":

Damn straight. All this reaction, Somber? It wouldn't be a great chapter if it didn't cause this much discussion or conflict. It would just be "meh".

Jeremyrush wrote:From what I've seen, every criticism of this chapter can be summed up as "Polygamy is the greatest of evils, mmkay?"

Ya'll need to stop being such sticks in the mud. Especially since BJ is going to be in so much trouble with Glory. It'll be amazing.

Damn straight. It's gonna be fucking awesome.

Damnit now I feel bad.

Somber, we don't dislike the chapter, we're just... frustrated with Blackjack, and for us to get that sort of intense real-life emotional response to a fictional character just proves that you are one hell of a writer!

<3

RoboRed wrote:
I'm uncertain whether he'll stick around as a party member, though. I keep getting this nagging feeling that somethings going to happen to him in the next chapter...

InB4 He takes one of Steel Rain's shots to save BJ.

swicked wrote:

RoboRed wrote:Sorry to hear that your interest in the story has waned. I guess I didn't realize it from your last review. (That, or I completely fucking forgot.)

Where'd you get those pics from?

Oh, the story is/was interesting, I just... eh. Nevermind, it's not worth going into. I'm over it.

As for the pics, they're from the tumblr Lil Miss Rarity: http://ask-lil-miss-rarity.tumblr.com/

I don't particularly like the story the author is doing, but some of the art (especially his earliest stuff in the tumblr, ironically, as opposed to his more recent updates) are
incredibly beautiful. I really need to go through and get a whole queue of emoticons to use ^_^

Maybe I should put that link in my signature here or something...

I like the art style...*follows*

Sindri wrote:

Necr0maNceR wrote:how come Lionheart can speak the normal pony language while the other batponies cannot?

My interpretation is that the "modern" Lunar Guard like Lionheart are pegasi with a uniform illusion on their armor to make them look like batponies out of a sense of tradition. The true batponies are mutants who've been living underground since before Luna's return, having gone into hiding after Nightmare Moon.

If any of Lionheart's generation of Luna's guards were pegasai, they were likely altered physically by Luna's magic and turned into batponies as per the second batpony origin story. An illusion is unlikely, since it would have to have been made to simulate ghoul decay as well, and I doubt Luna had that foresight. Also, Twilight was unable to create an illusion to alter the color of her eyes, and had to use enchanted glasses to cover them. Luna may be more powerful than her, but twilight was still the unicorn that was closest to alicorn power level, and likely more creative in her spellcraft than the princesses. Also, in the second batpony origin story, Nightmare Moon is listed first as being the one to make pegasai into batponies, and Luna second. This implies that she made them into batponies first as Nightmare Moon, and again when she returned as Luna. Even if the first origin story is correct and the second isn't, this still implies that the batpony race served her during both her reigns. The first origin story also has batponies serving Luna again after her return, sending their strongest to serve her. I don't know why you wouldn't think some, if not most, of Luna's most recent guard were batponies. It is unlikely that Lionheart is not a batpony, new or original. Regardless, Luna would certainly have enchanted the armor of all her guards so they could speak the same way, be they batpony or pegasus.

Sindri wrote:So the armor they wore would be forged by themselves, or date back thousands of years to the original Lunar Guard which was disbanded after the Nightmare.

The armor batponies now possess could certainly be new or original sets that were never enchanted in the first place. They could still possess sets as recent as Lionheart's, though, just unenchanted.

Sindri wrote:Language-wise, Lionheart and the other recent Guards would be speaking normally but with amplification, batponies would speak their own ultrasonic language taking advantage of their modified vocal chords and hearing. Either their ability to speak Equestrian was evolved away in the last 1200 years in a cave full of mutagenic mushrooms, or they just don't remember and it's really hard to figure out how to speak "normally" with a voice adapted to navigate tunnels, blast enemies, and talk to other bats, so he just learned to write instead

As I said, batponies served Luna as recently as 200 years ago. They likely lost the ability to physically speak equestrian during the 1000 years of Luna's imprisonment, or earlier, and needed enchantments to speak normally. For them to have retained their ability to speak normally after mutating for a thousand years while Luna was imprisoned, then suddenly lose it after the relatively short period of 200 years since the war is more than a little unlikely. If the batponies had stopped teaching equestrian sometime during the past 200 years, and speaking it was so difficult with their vocal chords that they could not emulate a single word even after learning the language and listening to wasteland ponies speak it, that means that 200 years ago they would of had to have gone through INCREDIBLY rigorous training. Training so rigorous, that they would go from the point of being incapable of forming a single word of equestrian (even if they knew how the language was spoken) to the point of being able to speak it very fluently and without error, like Lionheart. Such training would take many years, and quite frankly, would not be physically possible in my opinion. Same as how you can train a gorilla to understand english and use sign language, but you can never teach them to physically speak it, since that is not possible.

SilentCarto wrote:

Necr0maNceR wrote:I do not know what you are trying to say. I already pointed out the enchantment on the armor. For starters, all the enchantment is supposed to do is let Lionheart talk loud. He doesn't say "thou speakest", "thy" or the royal "we" like Luna did, so the armor isn't letting him speak "Ye Olde Equestrian" or anything like that. To say that it is altering his voice not only to make it louder, but to form syllables that a batpony cannot form regularly is already a stretch as it is. The thing is, you may be saying that is Somber's intention now, but the fact is, it still hasn't been stated in the story. That's why it doesn't make sense. If Somber specifically states that in the story, than there isn't a problem.

Well, the batponies clearly speak Equestrian, since they can understand BJ just fine -- they just speak it in the ultrasonic range.

The batpony language could be a high pitched version of equestrian. That's certainly a possibility. Keep in mind, though, that Stygius wrote using somewhat bad grammar (implying that he would speak equestrian that way as well) and that the normal written language for batponies appears to be greek, not equestrian.

SilentCarto wrote:There would be no reason for Luna to enchant a bunch of spare suits of armor, just the ones they keep in Canterlot. Presumably, the batponies would have a number of sets for training purposes, since there don't seem to be enough Lunar Guards to run a boot camp.

That would certainly be a good explanation for why Stygius's armor is different.

swicked wrote:
I always found her statements regarding what a father is supposed to be like back when she first went off on P-21 for not being Scotch's dad kinda funny. I don't remember her ever getting a basis for that sort of thing, either, but I suppose that's a different can 'o worms altogether.

That is a very good point, But I'm gonna drop it and hope BJ gets her comeuppance next chapter. I have very little faith that she will BJ wants to be punished after all.

Somber wrote:Sigh... looks like I screwed up the chapter after all... sorry...

I don't even--
Okay, let's ask a specialist.

Did Somber in any way screw up the chapter?:

There. The great one has spoken!

Somber wrote:Sigh... looks like I screwed up the chapter after all... sorry...

Your always sorry Somber. Even when you don't need to be. Maybe you should take some of Iron Will's advice. But seriously, I thought the chapter was good. It's given Blackjack a much-needed prod forward, and right on time as well since Steel Rain showed up. Whilst reading it, I always knew it was for a reason. And now I have the feeling that events will probably build into the next few chapters. Great job as always Somber. Keep it up!

Sindri wrote:It's simple; most of us grew up knowing that heterosexual monogamous relationships were the only form of love that was honest or genuine, and that anything outside of that was perverted and evil.

Wow. I don't think that I've ever heard it explained that clearly. I know that I'm actually the minority here, but from my point of view that's a really warped upbringing.

SilentCarto wrote:Oops, one more edit, Hinds -- Goldenblood said "Tenpony Tower". It wasn't called that back then -- he should say something along the lines of, "The MAS nearly burned down their Manehattan Hub..."

Ah, thank you. While I don't think we actually know that it wasn't called Tenpony Tower at the time (was the name ever explained?), changing it is safer.

So between internet troubles, fallout new vegas (while internet troubles) and my own story, I've not had a chance to write a subjective view on the new chapter - though I promise you I will on <strike>Sunday.</strike>


I'm working 10am-7pm tomorrow and 7am-3pm - but just realised I have my nans 'tea party' on Sunday so it'll be Monday instead, most likely.
Again, working 6am-3pm Monday (GMT) so it'll be Monday that I manage to re-read and subjectively reevaluate it all for you.

but I promise you - it was an amazing chapter.

Somber wrote:Sigh... looks like I screwed up the chapter after all... sorry...

Regarding BJ... she doesn't have a clue. She really doesn't. That's because in stable 99 you have sex and you have relationships. The former is an orgasm. The latter is somepony you care deeply about. There wasn't marriage or any type of perminent relationship in the stable. Loyalty was supposed to be to the stable and the Overmare, not to a spouce. You'd be real lucky just to find a very special somepony to share your life with and hope you both stay on the same shift. Sex was fun, recreational, and not tied to relationships. As long as it wasn't obnoxious, incestuous, and was concentual, enjoy. Clearly, this outlook is VERY different from how relationships are in Thunderhead. And yes, it is a train wreck... because that is what BJ does. Her life is a train wreck, but she keeps going.

Regarding Stygius... he let BJ make the move. She says she has somepony... okay... says she was raped... okay... she's still hot and when your dating pool is a few generations from being a family reunion, an outside mare like BJ is more than acceptable. He's a twenty year old virgin who finally gets the chance to pop his cherry with a mare who isn't a ganger. If BJ had fallen apart, he would have stopped, but short of that or her going off on him, he'll go as long as he thinks she's okay with it.

I'm sorry the chapter wasn't better, but it was necessary for something that's coming later. I had to address what happened to her on the seahorse... this was how I had to do it. I'm sorry it made people mad, but it had to be done...

Sorry... I'll try and make the next one better...

Also, Blackjack's virtue isn't forgiveness, but it's close.

While I'm still kind of uncomfortable with the styggius scene, it is in no way a screw up. I trust your skills enough to turn this chapter into a necessary setup for a future chapter. Kinda hope that Blackjack tries to eat Steel Rain's suit.

O. Hinds wrote:

Sindri wrote:It's simple; most of us grew up knowing that heterosexual monogamous relationships were the only form of love that was honest or genuine, and that anything outside of that was perverted and evil.

Wow. I don't think that I've ever heard it explained that clearly. I know that I'm actually the minority here, but from my point of view that's a really warped upbringing.

I find it warped as well, but I shared in that upbringing. While my parents didn't teach me the way that Sindri said in any shape, way, or form, there were simply no examples of anything different in my childhood - so I simply didn't know any better/otherwise.

We need more variance!!

OneMoreDaySK wrote:Kinda hope that Blackjack tries to eat Steel Rain's suit.

This. Just the mental picture makes me laugh. If it is not added in the story, it DEFINITELY needs to be drawn.

MrMagma wrote:

RoboRed wrote:
I'm uncertain whether he'll stick around as a party member, though. I keep getting this nagging feeling that somethings going to happen to him in the next chapter...

InB4 He takes one of Steel Rain's shots to save BJ.

Inb4 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
not my styggie :(

@ Somber: This chapter was good. I agree with a couple of the others when I think most of the negativity comes from trying to compare their own set of morals to Blackjack.
Personally I was bought up to be very open minded. She shouldn't have behaved like that without asking Glory first, but I had her mentality and social upbringing twigged so to her she doesn't appear to e doing anything wrong.
Which itself is one of the reasons PH is so interesting. The protagonist came from a place which has a different set of morals than the rest of the world (or at least parts of it), so its interesting to see Blackjack's behaviour almost obliviously clash with other people she meets.
I didn't think Stygies was really creepy. If it was here, or evern pre war Equestria maybe he would have been too forward, but this is the wasteland, who's motto is live fast, die young and there's not much you can do about it.

Moodyman90 wrote:Oddly enough I've heard of more people dieing while wearing seat belts then not. Like the two guys in the back of the truck that survived the crash because they went flying while the guy in the cab who was buckled up was the one who died.

Got to chime in here. Someone sitting in the back seat of a car not wearing a seatbelt might survive a high impact collision with superficial injuries after hitting the seat in front. Problem is, the person in the front seat is crushed to death from the impact of the passenger hitting the back of the seat.
If someone doesn't want to wear a seatbelt, they can sit in the front where the only damage they're going to do is to the windscreen and the road several yards in front of the vehicle.

mfw everyone loves Stygius

OneMoreDaySK wrote:
Kinda hope that Blackjack tries to eat Steel Rain's suit.

This would be the best. possible. thing.

TheLastDefender wrote:I'm gonna have to stick to my guns here. Somber stated this is pretty much completely unheard of in the Stable and apparently it's the first time she encounters it in the wastes. So I still think there's a sentence missing where BJ asks why.

But that's kind of my point. If Glory said, "I don't like hoofball," would BJ be full of questions about that particular preference, or just shrug and say, "Okay, you don't like hoofball"? She didn't say BJ couldn't watch hoofball, or go to a game with friends of a similar inclination, or even hold an informal two-on-two game in the back yard. She just indicated that she doesn't have any interest in it herself.

I should clarify that I am not actually talking about hoofball.

I am talking about sex.