Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

[Ironmonger]

I read Winning Pony for a bit after Frost recommended it, then stopped at Chapter 12 after I lost interest. Personally, I felt that it started lolling around in the floor like some stories tend to do, but at the same time I don't trust my memory...so...yeah.

[Frost]

yes, I do recall recommending it in the decent stages between "this is getting pretty good" and "This is pants-on-head retarded"

[WovenTales]

That's part of the reason I don't quite get people complaining about how Somber changes the backstory.

It's especially grating since Somber didn't really CHANGE anything that already existed in FoE. He added more layers and clarity.

Somehow, some people manage to go too far in their admiration of FoE. Like, into worship territory. You may check the second liveblog (the one by Seraphem) in my post for a good example; the author also hates PH (although he hadn't given a coherent explanation as to why).

Besides, how is tweaking a few details of the war era so much worse than, for example, saying that Fluttershy was banging Cloud Kicker during flight camp?

Spoiler:

I haven't  had time to read them yet, but both liveblogs are open just a couple tabs over. It's going to be interesting comparing the two, and seeing what points each of their approaches bring up.

Maybe not the best time to say it, but it's late and we're already on the subject of annoying complaints about PH, so what the heck. Why do people insist on saying it's too long, or too slow, or not focused enough on the main storyline? It's not a novel, and I'd be surprised if it was ever intended to be.

Here's an interesting video.



I'd say that, in this regard, FoE is more like F3 and FoE:PH is more like New Vegas.

I like the cut of that man's cortex. Thank you, Valikdu, for pointing me to a newly subscribed tube channel.

Maybe this is simplifying it too much, but FoE kinda felt sometimes like the more involved world-building parts were sidequests, and therefore optional. And Rainbow Dash is an entire DLC missing. Fallout: New Hoofington has a main plotline only to tie everything together, because otherwise it would be Blackjack's life (still awesome to read) instead of BJ's quest.

Also, does this conversation feel like we should move it back into the main discussion thread? We're kinda getting serious here.

@Valdiku
Well, that explains it a bit. Still annoying, but having it broken down like that makes their reaction a bit more understandable. Thanks!

@Derpmind
I'll see your subscription and raise you a book added to my Kindle.
I wouldn't say simplifying too much; that's the core of what I was trying to get at, phrased without too many tangents. And I need to play the Fallout games to see just how each story relates. Sounds like finishing Zemalf's LP of F3 and playing through FNV myself might not be a bad idea, though.
Finally, it may not be a bad idea to bring it back over. I don't have too much else to add unless someone brings up some new points, but it looks like Hinds already reposted what I said, so I guess we'll see how people continue with it.


@Winningverse
There are definitely others writing in it as well, but the main reason it's a -verse rather than just a story is because there's three or four main authors who separately build on each others work (the same guys who did that "Derpy is dying of cancer" shared universe, if you've read anything from that). It's certainly not as deep a story as PH, but the characters are more than vertices of the love triangle, and I'd say the the focus is more on looking at the ponies through the device of that triangle than on the romance itself. Your choice to read it or not, but I didn't find it as bad as Frost is making it out to be.

[Guest]

@Winning
The first story was a nice, funny little thing wherein two background ponies attempt to hook up Pinkie and Dash. There wasn't really much to it, but it was written entertainingly. The "main" story - or I think of it as the main story, anyway, it's the one that's ongoing and is all POV Cloudkicker and turns up the angst a bit - is different. It starts out with more slice of life romantic shenanigans, and then things get complicated, then things get strange, and then they get dark. The prose, for me at least, is REALLY entertaining. The characters are pretty darn well done, as evinced by Frost's reaction to them; sometimes, they get a bit Dickens-y (traits become overbearing for a scene), but overall they're well-constructed. The plot, even when it gets adventure-y, is slice of life style. There are arcs within the story, but mostly it's just the day to day; sometimes, the day to day happens to involve mortal combat. This can make it drag sometimes, especially around the middle (or... middle as of writing this, it's ongoing) when the same problems just seem to keep getting reiterated and rehashed. I mean... it's realistic, believe me, but it's not exactly driving.

[Harmony Ltd.]

And Derpibooru is still having DNS issues...

[Valikdu]

Meanwhile...

[Moodyman90]

Meanwhile...

 Oh, so that's where it went. I knew I shouldn't have let those guys take it for a test dive.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Hey, sub crews also have a right to enjoy the sun from time to time, you know ?

[Harmony Ltd.]

- What kind of sub do you want ? 15 or 30 centimeters ? Teriyaki or Meatball ?

- To be honest, I prefer them at least 80 meters long and nuclear powered.

- Oh. I think you want a Pripyat, then.

[Harmony Ltd.]

More seriously, given how close the other side seems to be, I'd hazard a guess that it's either close to a naval sub base, or that the sub is currently passing through the Bosphorus straight.

[RoboRed]

- What kind of sub do you want ? 15 or 30 centimeters ? Teriyaki or Meatball ?

- To be honest, I prefer them at least 80 meters long and nuclear powered.

- Oh. I think you want a Pripyat, then.

I legitimately laughed out loud. Well played.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Just be glad I didn't make a joke about them being big, black and cruising in a wet environment.

[RoboRed]

In defense of Winningverse...

Yes, I will give you the points that it's beating around the bush a bit. And to cut things short, I'll mostly echo what OAC said. It is very slice of life-y. It's serial - I honestly can't figure out how things are going to end or how the story is going to close. One point will just lead to the next. I love the characters. They have depth. They're developed and (though Frost may debate this) believable. They keep me reading. There's plenty of world-building. I'm a sucker for world-building.

And besides, it's much more than that one story, as Woven and OAC also pointed out. There are several canon sidestories, such as this one (far less relationship drama involved, more humor, more of Cloud being Cloud, and her annoying the ever-loving hell out of Twilight). And on the more serious end, there's a story recently released detailing Shadow Kicker's involvement in Equestria following Luna's banishment and the events thereafter. (definitely no relationship drama there, plenty of violence and asskicking) And then there's the set of afforementioned "Derpy has cancer" spinoff stories.

Sidenote:

I've honestly never heard this mentioned by anyone. But then again, I rarely venture out to other areas of the fandom, as I have a tendency to assume other people are complete pillocks.

[RoboRed]

and now for some images:

[Frost]

I I love the characters. They have depth. They're developed and (though Frost may debate this) believable. They keep me reading. There's plenty of world-building. I'm a sucker for world-building.

 All the depth in the world doesn't matter much if it's layers upon layers of bullshit. The jokes from the beginning--Cloud Kicker being a pervert and sexually harassing people, Blossomforth acting like a socially-awkward middle schooler--were eventually peeled back to reveal the second layer--Cloud Kicker can't commit to anything in life and can't get over her childhood fling, while Blossom is still a prudish overgrown filly, but she's also an orphan so we're supposed to empathize with and feel sorry for her automatically. 

Derpy isn't just a single mom struggling to raise two daughters on her own, she's.....actually, she's just a single mom struggling to raise two daughters on her own, and doing, it seems, a pretty damn good job. Made it hard to sympathize with everyone else in the love-quadrangle when she's the only remotely likable one. 

Fluttershy isn't just annoyingly shy, she's such a coward that she ended up splitting up two close friends (with the help of the Idiot Ball and Conflict Ball) because she couldn't spit out what she was fucking thinking.

Rainbow isn't just a somewhat arrogant, but very talented athlete--because no one in the world actually has confidence, no sirree, everyone is just a bundle of self-doubt and self-esteem issues like Our Hero--she alternates between being annoyingly egotistical and pitifully wallowing in self-loathing.

It's deep in the same way a septic tank is deep. There's more beneath the surface, and it's actually even more foul.

[Guest]

On the other hand, Derpy has anger management issues, isn't honest with herself or her partner about what she wants or is okay with, and wants her partner to change a core part of who she is because of jealousy problems. The problem is, you have to actually have empathy to enjoy the story at all, because the characters fuck up and get fucked up by the people they care about, even though they try their damnedest not to. The drama is character-driven (with one or two exceptions), which means the characters are going to make poor decisions, and be forced into no-win scenarios - if they were perfect, there wouldn't be a story, because everyone would just instantly be assimilated into the polycule and live happily ever after. =P

Mind you, it might just be my experience dealing with people exactly like the ones in the story on a day-to-day basis that lets me appreciate the shenanigans.

[Frost]

On the other hand, Derpy has anger management issues, isn't honest with herself or her partner about what she wants or is okay with, and wants her partner to change a core part of who she is because of jealousy problems. The problem is, you have to actually have empathy to enjoy the story at all, because the characters fuck up and get fucked up by the people they care about, even though they try their damnedest not to. The drama is character-driven (with one or two exceptions), which means the characters are going to make poor decisions, and be forced into no-win scenarios - if they were perfect, there wouldn't be a story, because everyone would just instantly be assimilated into the polycule and live happily ever after. =P

Mind you, it might just be my experience dealing with people exactly like the ones in the story on a day-to-day basis that lets me appreciate the shenanigans.

 My problem isn't a lack of empathy (my lack of empathy's hardly ever caused me problems before) but just how big an emotional train wreck everyone is. I'm half-surprised anyone made it to adulthood without having some sort of nervous breakdown in this universe. I'm fine with the characters making poor decisions.....if those were at least balanced by even a few right ones. Fuck, no one even knows what the right decision is, because the outcome will be the same either way--crippling self-doubt, and shit going crossways because DRAMA

[Frost]

Who in the heck likes pine nuts?
They taste like pine.
Pine is for your pits, not your tongue.

That is all.

 For some reason, my brain went "fuck" as I read this. I thought it was a haiku or something at first.

Regardless, I wasn't even aware that pine trees have nuts. Is it some chemical bastardry, or what?

[RoboRed]

[Guest]

Who in the heck likes pine nuts?
They taste like pine.
Pine is for your pits, not your tongue.

That is all.

Apparently, they're a common ingredient in pesto, and pesto is tasty. But I'm not really a nuts person in general, by pretty much any definition of the term. =P

@Frost
They don't have the luxury of decisions that are either good or bad, though. They're in situations in which (seemingly) anything they do is going to screw someone they care about over. The only good decision would be to get some goddamn therapy and counseling from a third party. Having a clever person from outside solve all the problems in a story generally isn't allowed, though; therapist ex machina is frowned upon. =P

Oh and apparently pine cones have nuts inside them or something. Who knew?

[RoboRed]

Apparently, they're a common ingredient in pesto, and pesto is tasty. But I'm not really a nuts person in general, by pretty much any definition of the term. =P

I fkin love pesto.

[Ironmonger]

therapist ex machina is frowned upon. =P

I'm finding this far funnier than I should.

[Frost]

@Frost
They don't have the luxury of decisions that are either good or bad, though. They're in situations in which (seemingly) anything they do is going to screw someone they care about over. The only good decision would be to get some goddamn therapy and counseling from a third party. Having a clever person from outside solve all the problems in a story generally isn't allowed, though; therapist ex machina is frowned upon. =P

Oh and apparently pine cones have nuts inside them or something. Who knew?

 That's part of it, though--not only are the characters themselves so FUBAR that they keep getting their asses into messes like this, but they're so FUBAR that they're not willing to come to any sort of compromise or reasonable solution.

It's like No Exit, the play where the three people are in Hell. Hell is, more or less, just a room with those three people in it. The door isn't even locked. The only thing keeping them in there is themselves.

[Derpmind]

(my lack of empathy's hardly ever caused me problems before)

Ok, about the story, it's objectively better than a soap opera. We get that the fantastically (because fiction) overblown drama stuff really ticked you off, but it's your own fault for sticking around a story so long after you stopped enjoying it. You can't convince those of us who enjoyed the story, or see parallels with real-world interpersonal conflicts, that we're wrong. Sorry, but I think we're rapidly reaching the point where it's not going to be a conversation anymore.

[Frost]

I think we're quite past the point where either of us is going to be able to convince the other, yeah.

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

Who in the heck likes pine nuts?
They taste like pine.
Pine is for your pits, not your tongue.

That is all.

i like pignolias you have to toast them of course...

[Guest]

No Exit/Huis Clos is the best! It's interesting, 'cos in French it means something a bit different - closed doors, rather than no exit. The art of translation is an underappreciated one, outside of academics.

EDIT: Plague squirrels. PLAGUE SQUIRRELS.

[Frost]

No Exit/Huis Clos is the best! It's interesting, 'cos in French it means something a bit different - closed doors, rather than no exit. The art of translation is an underappreciated one, outside of academics.

EDIT: Plague squirrels. PLAGUE SQUIRRELS.

Come, my children. Father Nurgle has acorns for you all.

[RoboRed]

[Frost]

 "Honey.....my beautiful, loving wife.......

We need to fucking talk."

 EDIT: I forgot to mention: Demon eyes are not cute. They're demonic. That's why they're "Demon eyes". Whoever had the brilliant fucking idea to give foals demon eyes is a putrid fool.

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