Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

[Kippershy]

Nah, I considered using the remnant before myself and asked him about it all. He was cool with the idea but I ended up going for a different system because the remnant don't quite fit my plans... they're too small time.


Anyway, I'm sure that even if he did read it, he'd understand. It is a major topic and yes it can be a trigger, but you've got to learn to deal with past experiences and do your best to move on. Even if you never forget and couldn't even dream of forgiving, you have to accept that the rest of the world can't and simply won't pander to you.

As dark as a topic as it is, it's a legitimate one. Your story doesn't use it cheaply, it uses it for a good reason and thus far you haven't made a light issue of it. Perhaps if you wanted to be realistic, you could throw a little more nervousness into Shayle when around bigger, stronger males. Otherwise, you're fine.


At the end of the day, this is a post apocalyptic world we're setting our stories in - me and a friend at work are ALWAYS having this argument because he caught wind of me using rape as a tool for storytelling - saying even once is too much, that if anyone mentions it I'm overplaying it - yadda yadda yadda.
I tell him to shut his fucking face because you've got to remember:

Post apocalyptic world with no police force to go running off to - just self defence to being a victim.
Things like this would happen a lot more than they do currently.
It's something that comes with lawlessness and the end of civilisation as we know it.

[CamoBadger]

Nah, I considered using the remnant before myself and asked him about it all. He was cool with the idea but I ended up going for a different system because the remnant don't quite fit my plans... they're too small time.


Anyway, I'm sure that even if he did read it, he'd understand. It is a major topic and yes it can be a trigger, but you've got to learn to deal with past experiences and do your best to move on. Even if you never forget and couldn't even dream of forgiving, you have to accept that the rest of the world can't and simply won't pander to you.

As dark as a topic as it is, it's a legitimate one. Your story doesn't use it cheaply, it uses it for a good reason and thus far you haven't made a light issue of it. Perhaps if you wanted to be realistic, you could throw a little more nervousness into Shayle when around bigger, stronger males. Otherwise, you're fine.


At the end of the day, this is a post apocalyptic world we're setting our stories in - me and a friend at work are ALWAYS having this argument because he caught wind of me using rape as a tool for storytelling - saying even once is too much, that if anyone mentions it I'm overplaying it - yadda yadda yadda.
I tell him to shut his fucking face because you've got to remember:

Post apocalyptic world with no police force to go running off to - just self defence to being a victim.
Things like this would happen a lot more than they do currently.
It's something that comes with lawlessness and the end of civilisation as we know it.

That's true, but then again Shayle hasn't exactly come into contact with many males aside from Felix (a fact I just now realized). But I think you are right that she could do with a little more unease around them than I have been due to her past (especially if she gets around a certain zebra again), so thanks for pointing it out.

And I agree with that. I've had people telling me that same thing, that it should never ever be used in a story because it's wrong etc. etc. I try to ignore them because even though it is a VERY touchy subject, it does happen and in post-apocalypse I don't doubt it would be even more common, but I'm still trying to be careful with it, lest I be assaulted for torturing Shayle even more than I have since her creation...

[Kippershy]

Yeah, that's a smart move.

My friend pisses me off because I mention how I've had characters use rape as a threat at parts in my story (rouge Enclave soldiers, rouge DZC soldiers).

Yes, because a story meant to be set in a world of darkness rated 18+ by the author himself can't at all occasionally use threats from certain no-name characters to drive home the point that faction X is bad and doesn't have fully disciplined soldiers.
(As if it never happens during war...)



edit: also, glad you didn't get upset my thoughts and have turned around and said 'actually, you've got a point'.
I don't mean to say you've handled it wrong or poorly, though thinking back to the times she's been in the bar with all those drunken soldiers (remember, drunk stallions would probably remind her of her dad.) -- especially when one asks for her to do that all with him.

Still, you haven't butchered it so don't take it as me trying to make you feel bad.

[CamoBadger]

You're right about that part, so I couldn't say otherwise. I probably handled it differently than I should. I tried to at least have her be uncomfortable overall, but Felix was there so she felt safer because her Father never did things to her while Felix was around.

By the end she had been treated pretty well by Iredi, so she wasn't quite as worried about him as she would be if he'd been acting like her Father.

Probably horrible reasoning that I messed up, but that was my thought process way back when I wrote that...

[RoboRed]

I think I'll get in on the "Match the music" game. I have a list of unused songs from when I was still doing soundtracks for the chapters. Let's see if anyone can make something of them.

Let's start with this one: Deepest Blue - Tim Gilbert

[O. Hinds]

And also because I'm worried that it'll offend him or make him angry that I'm using the Remnant.

I don't think that you need to worry about that. I once asked him if he'd read ATR at all, wanting to know what he thought of your take on the Remnant, and, though he hadn't been reading the story, I got a very Somberish answer to the more specific question: he expressed, a bit sadly, I thought, that you probably wouldn't like what he was doing with them...

(Oh, I see that Kippershy already brought this up.)

[CamoBadger]

And also because I'm worried that it'll offend him or make him angry that I'm using the Remnant.

I don't think that you need to worry about that. I once asked him if he'd read ATR at all, wanting to know what he thought of your take on the Remnant, and, though he hadn't been reading the story, I got a very Somberish answer to the more specific question: he expressed, a bit sadly, I thought, that you probably wouldn't like what he was doing with them...
(Oh, I see that Kippershy already brought this up.)

But...wait...they're his, so HIS interpretation is the right one.

[Stringtheory]

I just found this great comment on the 10 hour long trololo song youtube video (yes, I've spent too much time on the internet and with too little sleep)

1.) Download 20 times on your computer
2.) Title it Child Porn or some sick name involving children
3.) Wait till F.B.I. catches you
4.) An agent will have to watch every second of every video

guys, help, I'm actually thinking about doing this, except I'd mix in other '10 hours' videos, just for variety, don't want those FBI agents getting bored

[Guest]

Dude, don't do this... but if you do, make a ten hour mix of You Suffer by Napalm Death. "You suffer, but why?" indeed.

[Valikdu]

All the hate I've noticed for him / Project Horizons in the last two days has been a shock to me. It's strange to see when I'm so used to only speaking about it to you guys.

A lot of people not only are ignorant [Deus's favorite word]s, but also eager to spread their idiotic vision to others.

Just recently, I've stumbled upon someone (not on 4chan) proclaiming FoE (the original) to be a

long-winded rape/pedophilia/bestiality/guro fapfiction

...

And this happens all the time. It's like that time Mass Effect was called a "sodomy simulator", but because FoE is a fanfic, it's much more vulnerable to this kind of shit.

[Guest]

Awful unfunny fake logic to make semi-valid points:

In lighter news, I think the new IDW pony comic should be coming out soon, and I've quite enjoyed them so far. Especially Chrysalis' faces. And her character in general is entertaining.

[Kippershy]

You're right about that part, so I couldn't say otherwise. I probably handled it differently than I should. I tried to at least have her be uncomfortable overall, but Felix was there so she felt safer because her Father never did things to her while Felix was around.

By the end she had been treated pretty well by Iredi, so she wasn't quite as worried about him as she would be if he'd been acting like her Father.

Probably horrible reasoning that I messed up, but that was my thought process way back when I wrote that...

-

Actually, with you having pointed that out I understand a lot more.
If Felix was there, which he was, that reduces the stress because he always proved to be a safety line of sorts. As well as another female being there.
And yes, the soldier did treat her nicely so I suppose that would help her somewhat at the end of the night.

[Kippershy]

All the hate I've noticed for him / Project Horizons in the last two days has been a shock to me. It's strange to see when I'm so used to only speaking about it to you guys.

A lot of people not only are ignorant [Deus's favorite word]s, but also eager to spread their idiotic vision to others.

Just recently, I've stumbled upon someone (not on 4chan) proclaiming FoE (the original) to be a

long-winded rape/pedophilia/bestiality/guro fapfiction

...

And this happens all the time. It's like that time Mass Effect was called a "sodomy simulator", but because FoE is a fanfic, it's much more vulnerable to this kind of shit.

Actually, as much as I hate to admit it... some of them had good points.
Of course there was those who were just jackasses with no reasoning, but the majority could (and did) actually come out with fairly thought out arguments explaining their distaste in how Project Horizons has become (mostly after c.33).
There was a lot of hate on the cyber route, "lack of trauma", how grimdark it gets, how strong Blackjack has become, how long the story has become without seeing any traces of light to the end... a lot of points that they didn't just throw out there with one line, but often a paragraph or three for each one.

[Guest]

I dunno. I keep typing stuff up, and then deleting it because my pretentiousness levels are too damn high already, but basically I would take criticism with a small grain of salt. Criticizing something is easy - not just in terms of effort, but in terms of "our culture is so diverse and self-contradictory and massive that you can literally (literarily) call anything garbage and provide damn good reasons." If you like something, don't let critics change your opinion of it too readily. They are not the gatekeepers of culture, much as they might like to think otherwise. Except if you're in France; they actually have cultural gatekeepers there, sort of. Gotta keep the language pure, y'know, lingua francas be damned.

That's my take, anyway. Surely can't call it perfect, or claim to have even a majority of the answers, but there you have it.

[O. Hinds]

And also because I'm worried that it'll offend him or make him angry that I'm using the Remnant.

I don't think that you need to worry about that. I once asked him if he'd read ATR at all, wanting to know what he thought of your take on the Remnant, and, though he hadn't been reading the story, I got a very Somberish answer to the more specific question: he expressed, a bit sadly, I thought, that you probably wouldn't like what he was doing with them...
(Oh, I see that Kippershy already brought this up.)

But...wait...they're his, so HIS interpretation is the right one.

That doesn't mean that you'll like it.
(For the record, I only know a very few details, no where near enough to actually hazard an opinion as to your likely opinion, and obviously I can't tell you what I know.)

[CamoBadger]

ALRIGHT EVERYONE! Time for an urgent announcement.

I don't know if some of you have already heard, but somebody somewhere decided to make a little money by selling Fallout: Equestria on Amazon, without asking Kkat's permission to do so.

Personally, I think this is horribly wrong, so I'm asking that you all spread the word around and make sure that nobody buys these books while Kkat handles the situation with Amazon to have the product removed.

This is the product in question, so please let others know so that this scumbag doesn't get a penny.

[Quotidian]

That's my take, anyway. Surely can't call it perfect, or claim to have even a majority of the answers, but there you have it.

This.

The thing is, writing is fucking hard. Take it from me. I can barely string three chapters together. I have no idea how Somber does it. And generally, writers like feedback. It lets us know that there are people out there who care enough about the story to take some of their valuable time and tell us what they think. But there's a difference between constructive criticism and rampant ratfucking assholery. And since constructive criticism requires actual thought and empathy, guess which you see more of on the internet?

Gah. I don't know where I'm going with this. It's just, people (no one in this thread, to my knowledge) that sit on the sidelines and hurl thoughtless invective piss me off. No, Project Horizons isn't "Serious Literature", but Somber's poured his fucking heart and soul into it for a couple years now. You don't have to like what he's made, but you have to at least respect that. You don't have to like, say, Cormac McCarthy either, but you sure as hell shouldn't go to his house and shit on his front porch.

(Also hi again. I keep vanishing for weeks at a time. Sorry.)

[OneMoreDaySK]

@Camobadger
Good grief. I already contacted Amazon Customer Service. Hopefully it does some help.

[Kippershy]

I dunno. I keep typing stuff up, and then deleting it because my pretentiousness levels are too damn high already, but basically I would take criticism with a small grain of salt. Criticizing something is easy - not just in terms of effort, but in terms of "our culture is so diverse and self-contradictory and massive that you can literally (literarily) call anything garbage and provide damn good reasons." If you like something, don't let critics change your opinion of it too readily. They are not the gatekeepers of culture, much as they might like to think otherwise. Except if you're in France; they actually have cultural gatekeepers there, sort of. Gotta keep the language pure, y'know, lingua francas be damned.

That's my take, anyway. Surely can't call it perfect, or claim to have even a majority of the answers, but there you have it.

Oh definitely, I'm not really letting it change my opinion. I still love Project Horizons and I'm not saying that I think Somber has done a bad job after all - I'm just saying I can understand where they're coming from and see that they do have a valid point in their opinion, because it is just that after all.
To simply deny the legitimacy of their opinions is stupid unless they haven't got a strong argument for that opinion.

My own opinion hasn't been changed, I'm just seeing they have ones that were previously alien to me.

[Ironmonger]

ALRIGHT EVERYONE! Time for an urgent announcement.

I don't know if some of you have already heard, but somebody somewhere decided to make a little money by selling Fallout: Equestria on Amazon, without asking Kkat's permission to do so.

Personally, I think this is horribly wrong, so I'm asking that you all spread the word around and make sure that nobody buys these books while Kkat handles the situation with Amazon to have the product removed.

This is the product in question, so please let others know so that this scumbag doesn't get a penny.

Where do you people get this kind of data? I'm in the dark half of the time on this stuff.

[CamoBadger]

"CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform" rings a bell, and it's being sold by Amazon.

Wasn't CreateSpace what the printers using to make their own not-for-profit printing run of FoE? You know, the ones we were ordering a copy for Somber through?

I guess I'm worried that someone didn't read all the terms and conditions and CreateSpace is authorized to continue to print and sell extra books following the completion of a printing run. I mean, I assume kkat gave approval of THOSE printings, and that might actually of been enough.

This actually is a good point, and might just shut down any argument against it.

Hopefully it'll all be cleared up soon.

[CamoBadger]

And actually... it isn't only on Amazon.

Anywhere that Publisher sells books, this is for sale. Starting to look like swicked may be correct.

[Guest]

Oh definitely, I'm not really letting it change my opinion. I still love Project Horizons and I'm not saying that I think Somber has done a bad job after all - I'm just saying I can understand where they're coming from and see that they do have a valid point in their opinion, because it is just that after all.
To simply deny the legitimacy of their opinions is stupid unless they haven't got a strong argument for that opinion.

My own opinion hasn't been changed, I'm just seeing they have ones that were previously alien to me.

Good good! :) It's almost always useful to be able to see from multiple points of view, except in WH40k where I gather it gets you executed for heresy.

@Camo and swicked
This, too, is good to know. I hope it gets cleared up soon, and that there's nothing too sketchy going on with the publishing company (surely they realize that they'd get shut down hard by Hasbro for actually going ahead with something like that? Also, the synopsis does not read like it was written by even a shady company ["based of [sic] a my little pony fanfic" IIRC] so hopefully that's a good sign... but if it's showing up everywhere, that probably is not. Maybe some random douchebag sent it to them for independent publishing in hopes of making some money for free?). Anyway, the funny thing about this is the one bookseller selling a "used" copy for like $800. Total. Clusterfump.

@Quotidian
Hiya, welcome back and stuff! Anyway, I gather that some of the criticism, while not constructive, was at least genuine, so that's something. Doesn't mean it's worth heeding, but at least there is effort.

[Kippershy]

CreateSpace being some kind of creative license thing? If so, I will.

[CamoBadger]

FOUND IT!
You have to authorize them to spread it to other places, so even if this is them, without consent they aren't allowed.

So perhaps someone submitted this to them to make money off it?

In that case, something that will likely help:

Copyright Complaints
We respect the intellectual property of others. If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please follow our Procedure for Making Claims of Copyright Infringement.

There is a link with it as well, but unfortunately unless Kkat actually Copyrighted Fallout: Equestria (which is impossible I'm sure), this won't help her. Don't think there is much they can do about this.

[Valikdu]

In other news: the writer of Not Alone is going to delete his work.

[CamoBadger]

There is a link with it as well, but unfortunately unless Kkat actually Copyrighted Fallout: Equestria (which is impossible I'm sure), this won't help her. Don't think there is much they can do about this.

...what is "copyrighted"?
Copyright is implied in making something. There's some confusion in ownership of the concept here, but I'd like to see them argue she isn't the author.

To argue it she needs:
An electronic or physical signature of the person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright interest;
A description of the copyrighted work that you claim has been infringed upon;
A description of where the material that you claim is infringing is located on the site;
Your address, telephone number, and e-mail address;
A statement by you that you have a good-faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law;
A statement by you, made under penalty of perjury, that the above information in your notice is accurate and that you are the copyright owner or authorized to act on the copyright owner's behalf.

So she needs an actual, physical copyright.

[Harmony Ltd.]

In other news: the writer of Not Alone is going to delete his work.

Thanks for informing us. I saved it on my Hard Drive in HTML format.

I think I'll get in on the "Match the music" game. I have a list of unused songs from when I was still doing soundtracks for the chapters. Let's see if anyone can make something of them.

Let's start with this one: Deepest Blue - Tim Gilbert

At a quick guess :

Spoiler:

[Guest]

Copyright

Are you sure you're not thinking of trademark? I'm absolutely not an expert, but I have the impression that copyright is more or less inherent - kkat should have legal copyright over any part of her work that does not illegally use stuff from Fallout or MLP. (Not sure how much her "parody" use allows her, but even so, there should be enough original stuff in there that's being illegally used)

From US Gov website FAQ on copyright (link)
"When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. "

[CamoBadger]

Copyright

Are you sure you're not thinking of trademark? I'm absolutely not an expert, but I have the impression that copyright is more or less inherent - kkat should have legal copyright over any part of her work that does not illegally use stuff from Fallout or MLP. (Not sure how much her "parody" use allows her, but even so, there should be enough original stuff in there that's being illegally used)

From US Gov website FAQ on copyright (link)
"When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. "

She can still try, but what I posted up there is directly from the company's policies.

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