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[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Kippershy on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:38 pm

I feel stupid for needing to ask this.. but I've forgotten.

How did Blackjack meet Lacunae in the first place? Also, when did they meet?

lol
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by CamoBadger on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 pm

Kippershy wrote:I feel stupid for needing to ask this.. but I've forgotten.

How did Blackjack meet Lacunae in the first place? Also, when did they meet?

lol
The first time they actually met...I think it was when the went to the Star House for the first time and Lacunae was in there for some reason.
Other than that, she noticed Lac when she first woke up in Chapel. And when she was stalking BJ outside the museum.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Vergil on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:42 pm

Kippershy wrote:I feel stupid for needing to ask this.. but I've forgotten.

How did Blackjack meet Lacunae in the first place? Also, when did they meet?

lol

Lacunae was following Blackjack for a while (BJ kept thinking she was seeing Luna) until BJ found and confronted her in Star House, at which point Lacunae asked to travel with the group.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:59 pm

SilentCarto wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:
Spoiler:
I was in a bit of a hurry before, and obviously left many problems I had out of my post. But this is one I hadn't thought of at the time: why was the reform spell Plan B? And, on a side note, how would knowing that heavy-duty mind-altering spells for use on criminals are common and readily accessible in (presumably) any public library in Equestria change how you feel about the country? If, of course, you don't go with the pretend this never happened, even in the context of the show solution that I am sorely tempted to roll with.
I doubt that a "reform spell" would actually mind-control the subject into changing their ways. It might just be like a Jiminy Cricket sitting on your shoulder, giving you a poke when you contemplate taking certain actions. Also, I think we've established that Twilight's library is anything but average -- I have this feeling that Celestia stocked it with books of useful magic and lore well before the Summer Sun Celebration, and that's not even mentioning the hidden compartment from TMPP.

Spoiler:
Maybe it's better stocked than normal; maybe it's not. But in any case the spells do not appear to be kept closely-guarded secrets. As for the form that the reform spells take, based on Twilight's and Discord's actions, I disagree: why would Twilight put more trust in Cricket than Fluttershy? Ultimately, why would she trust any noncoercive remedial measure? And why would Discord bother removing them if they would be something he could just ignore--thus far the only magic that has proven even a little effective on him has been the Elements, but mind magic was never used on him up to that point, or even after, so who knows?--but he could have just been playing with her.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Mister Nikel on Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:03 pm

I don't see why people are so angry with this episode and want to remove it from canon entirely. Hell Somber himself said that he would never introduce the Crystal Empire elements but in this chapter we have them plain as day and they are a major plot element as a source for containing the Tokamare.

The way I see it this episode does not significantly break FO:E canon in any way. Look what the war did to the main six. Rarity became a necromancer, Pinkie a drug addict etc. Discord is a being of chaos. It can be easily explained that he fucked something up along the way and got turned back to stone. It would even add to the character of Fluttershy and add to the story's biggest morals of giving ponies a second chance. And to do better. And guess who that cheesy saying belongs to.

There are literaly hundreds of ways to write this in ranging from a simple mistake on Discord's part to a secret zebra plot to get rid of him. Once again the choice of the matter is for Somber to decide though. I will be content regardless of how it pulls it off when Discord finally comes back in a big damn hero moment.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Kippershy on Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:14 pm

>.> That's how they meet Lacunae? Shiiiiit.
Why do I never think to check this shit beforehand.

Ah well, nine months too late to change that to not be doing the same style, LOL.
And I learn this all because I forgot how they met.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overlong Analysis Cobalt on Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:25 pm

@Mister Nikel
Spoiler:
I don't think the sentiment is so much removing it from canon, merely not adding to the fanon that is PH; for my part I rather thought the episode charming, and thought it had several very well done scenes. In any case, I'm certain Somber will do whatever fits in best with previously laid plans for Discord.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:09 pm

SilentCarto wrote:
Unrelated Tangent:
You know, as of Family Appreciation Day, we discovered that Ponyville is way younger than I'd ever expected. It's less than 80 years old, when you get right down to it. So either the first librarian of Ponyville hollowed out a preexisting Everfree tree, or they had a unicorn who specialized in plant magic that encouraged the tree to grow that big and form the desired architecture.
Well I have this headcanon / crack theory... Lemme quote myself from somewhere else :

Spoiler:
me wrote:Isn't granny Smith like, actually more than 100 years old, and easily close to 150 or even more ?

I don't know why, but given she participated in the foundation of Ponyville I could see her being kind of "binded" to the land, and literally living out of it : As long as Ponyville will live, she'll live.

At least I find it's an interesting crack theory.
[paraphrasing someone else :] "Didn't they go that direction already in the zap apple jam episode ?"
me wrote:That's what I'm basing this theory on, but there's no "confirmation" that Granny Smith has become, so to speak, Ponyville's resident spirit.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:53 pm

Mister Nikel wrote:I don't see why people are so angry with this episode and want to remove it from canon entirely. Hell Somber himself said that he would never introduce the Crystal Empire elements but in this chapter we have them plain as day and they are a major plot element as a source for containing the Tokamare.

The way I see it this episode does not significantly break FO:E canon in any way. Look what the war did to the main six. Rarity became a necromancer, Pinkie a drug addict etc. Discord is a being of chaos. It can be easily explained that he fucked something up along the way and got turned back to stone. It would even add to the character of Fluttershy and add to the story's biggest morals of giving ponies a second chance. And to do better. And guess who that cheesy saying belongs to.

There are literaly hundreds of ways to write this in ranging from a simple mistake on Discord's part to a secret zebra plot to get rid of him. Once again the choice of the matter is for Somber to decide though. I will be content regardless of how it pulls it off when Discord finally comes back in a big damn hero moment.

Some requirements:
Discord needs to be turned back into stone.
It needs to be done in such a way that they don't release him again--that is, it needs to be seen as a betrayal, or at least as indicative that he cannot be trusted with freedom.
--But also not such a bad way that Twilight would no longer be horrified by his containment and exploitation.
It would have to occur well before the war began, indeed before the trade disputes happened, because in a world with a tame Discord using his powers for good, a resource shortage could not exist.
Lastly, the nature of Discord's (apparent) betrayal/whatever would have to be hidden from Fluttershy in order to not entirely ruin her character (ludicrously naive, but not malicious) as presented in Fallout: Equestria: after seeing the fallout from trusting a known, violent (former) enemy to reform while maintaining massive magical powers, her leaking of megaspell tech to the zebras loses what little justification it ever had. If she's seen the situation happen before, she should at least be on guard for the possibility of her good intentions backfiring.

As to why I "hate" the episode, I'll add a short list. Why free Discord (what did Celestia want out of him); why do it now, rather than soon after the Nightmare Moon incident, when there wasn't another data point indicating that reform would be problematic; why does Fluttershy act like she is bound by her promise when it was one half of an exchange on which the counterparty immediately reneged; if you have reform spells, why weren't they at least a part of plan a; why was Celestia able to protect the Elements from Discord this time, but not last time, when she also had them in a protected location only she could access and which she did not expect Discord to be able to penetrate; why didn't Discord even make much of a go at escape (Discord Fluttershy, send her elsewhere, for instance, or just try to leave himself).


Last edited by Icy Shake on Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Moodyman90 on Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:21 pm

Gonna throw some things out there to answer you Icy. Not all of them but what I see could be the answers to some.

@ Celestia protecting the Elements: Well she wasn't expecting Discord last time, and up until then there wasn't anything of his level of magic to protect the Elements from and thus didn't have a spell to protect them other then in a locked room in a chest. This time she knew Discord could and would do his best to get rid of the Elements again and thus why she cast the spell to protect them. And she did it before she let the others free him.

@Discords action: he's a spirit of chaos. To simply leave without destroying their plans would be against his nature. It's also his nature that prevented him from pulling the same stunt as last time. It's not random, would make him predictable, and it was also proven that doesn't really work because they pulled together at the end.

Not gonna touch on the other ones. I can only B.S. so much logic that works for me and chances are you'll take a chainsaw to what I've said already.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:15 pm

SilentCarto wrote:
Unrelated Tangent:
You know, as of Family Appreciation Day, we discovered that Ponyville is way younger than I'd ever expected. It's less than 80 years old, when you get right down to it. So either the first librarian of Ponyville hollowed out a preexisting Everfree tree, or they had a unicorn who specialized in plant magic that encouraged the tree to grow that big and form the desired architecture.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:
SilentCarto wrote:
Unrelated Tangent:
You know, as of Family Appreciation Day, we discovered that Ponyville is way younger than I'd ever expected. It's less than 80 years old, when you get right down to it. So either the first librarian of Ponyville hollowed out a preexisting Everfree tree, or they had a unicorn who specialized in plant magic that encouraged the tree to grow that big and form the desired architecture.
Well I have this headcanon / crack theory... Lemme quote myself from somewhere else :

Spoiler:
me wrote:Isn't granny Smith like, actually more than 100 years old, and easily close to 150 or even more ?

I don't know why, but given she participated in the foundation of Ponyville I could see her being kind of "binded" to the land, and literally living out of it : As long as Ponyville will live, she'll live.

At least I find it's an interesting crack theory.
[paraphrasing someone else :] "Didn't they go that direction already in the zap apple jam episode ?"
me wrote:That's what I'm basing this theory on, but there's no "confirmation" that Granny Smith has become, so to speak, Ponyville's resident spirit.
Alternatively, I've a friend who's hypothesized that the natural pony lifespan is on the order of two centuries and that most of them just get killed long before that.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:21 pm

Maybe, but I don't like this interpretation much.

I liked my theory because it would have had interesting story potential, with Granny Smith becoming the "Patron Spirit" of the Apple Family and Ponyville.


Though since the latest Apple Family episode either Granny Smith isn't as aged as I thought, or the average lifespan of ponies is greater than I believed.

Either way, it would seem to contradict the Immortal Granny hypothesis.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by SilentCarto on Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:31 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Maybe, but I don't like this interpretation much.

I liked my theory because it would have had interesting story potential, with Granny Smith becoming the "Patron Spirit" of the Apple Family and Ponyville.
I don't understand what interpretation of events would make Granny over 100 years old.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Luminous Lead on Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:10 am

SilentCarto wrote:
I don't understand what interpretation of events would make Granny over 100 years old.

Ponyville was founded because of the trade generated by the zap apple jam that Smith and her family were making.

And then if we remember back what our resident history/knowledge/magic buff said back in Winter Wrap Up
Twilight Sparkle wrote:Ponyville was started by Earth Ponies, so for hundreds of years they've never used magic to clean up winter.

So, unless her knowledge is horribly wrong (and given her enthusiasm about the season and OCD tendencies I doubt she'd slack off studying) or the Apple Family are time travelers, there's no way Smith can be anything less than "hundreds of years" old.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Derpmind on Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:55 am

Is there any point of timeline divergence were we can say "After this episode, FoE's stuff started happening?" Some point where the events after have to be different from the show?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Plasticube on Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:38 am

Icy Shake wrote:

Some requirements:
Discord needs to be turned back into stone.
It needs to be done in such a way that they don't release him again--that is, it needs to be seen as a betrayal, or at least as indicative that he cannot be trusted with freedom.
--But also not such a bad way that Twilight would no longer be horrified by his containment and exploitation.
It would have to occur well before the war began, indeed before the trade disputes happened, because in a world with a tame Discord using his powers for good, a resource shortage could not exist.
Lastly, the nature of Discord's (apparent) betrayal/whatever would have to be hidden from Fluttershy in order to not entirely ruin her character (ludicrously naive, but not malicious) as presented in Fallout: Equestria: after seeing the fallout from trusting a known, violent (former) enemy to reform while maintaining massive magical powers, her leaking of megaspell tech to the zebras loses what little justification it ever had. If she's seen the situation happen before, she should at least be on guard for the possibility of her good intentions backfiring.

So here is my current headcanon on this:

Spoiler:
One day Celestia visits discord in his palace in the mountains where he is allowed to do whatever he wants, all guests visit him because why go to places where ponies won't let him break the laws of physics. She asks him to light a fire for her like any flame this one would spread, be chaotic and unpredictable but it would never stop burning. Thinking this a small matter he agrees creates this chaos flame and shoos Celestia away.

Celestia hand the chaos flame to Twilight, who manages to contain and control it and from this designs the basic power generator, engine.....etc.

The results are promising so Celestia takes and shares it with all the nations to make the world a better place. The technology improves at a rapid pace, a worldwide industrial revolution begins.

All is well until one day for the first time in decades discord leaves his palace for whatever reason and sees his flame, contained and controlled, powering the factories, assembly lines and public transportation of the world. Feeling angry and betrayed, with a wave of his paw he extinguishes all the chaos flames world wide then vanishes into thin air.

Panic sets in the nations of the world gather, Twilight comes up with a solution, coal which at the time is found everywhere is used a a stopgap measure until they can find and reason with Discord (wood doesn't burn hot enough, charcoal cannot be produced in the quantities needed....) and all is well again.

As the years drag on and coal sources around the world dwindle trade agreements are signed for the remaining coal sources. A coalition is formed to find, Discord all nations make a contribution, ponies with their magic, griffons share their firearms, zebras bring their shamanism.....and the black book.

One day an equestrian search team finds him, Celestia herself teleports in to attempt to reason with him. Discord takes one look at the assembled ponies and gives a dire warning about the future, he knows that if he gives them back the endless flame then the majority of the world will be condemned to live in their small boring apartments, do the same boring jobs day after day, to pay for their long boring lives.

The only option Discord offers is to give up the technology he helped create, telling Celestia she might need to 'break a few eggs' he begins to disappear again. But this time the ponies are ready, the aura of the black book protects the ponies in the group from Discords influence, magically accelerated, high velocity, necromancy enhanced, starmetal bullets phase through anything he can conjure up and slam into Discord, ripping off chunks of his soul. Badly injured it only takes a weak spell from a unicorn in the group to turn Discord into stone.

Discord is brought to a hidden location, his capture is kept as a secret by Celestia until he agrees to relight the fires because the on going effort to find Discord is one of the main reason the Zebras are sharing their coal. She considers bringing in the Mane 6 to help reform him again but just as she is writing the letters a raid by the Wonderbolts to rescue hostages held by zebra gem pirates in zebra territory goes wrong.

Celestia had thought that after many years of cooperation that the Zebras would be fine with her 'helping out with a small matter', she thought wrong. The war begins.

As pony losses mount only Twilight now the head mare of the Ministry of Magic is brought before Discord, they have a long discussion blaming each other for the state of the world, concluding with 'nothing personal, just business' Twilight begins extracting compounds from discord.

Twilight tells nopony and after so many years most don't bother. The only time she considers is during the rare few times in her busy schedule when she visits Fluttershy who laments the misuse of 'Discords gift'.

The bombs fall, everypony dies.

what do you think?

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Valikdu on Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:40 am

This is... really quite fitting.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Stringtheory on Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:49 am

Plasticube wrote:So here is my current headcanon on this:

Spoiler:
One day Celestia visits discord in his palace in the mountains where he is allowed to do whatever he wants, all guests visit him because why go to places where ponies won't let him break the laws of physics. She asks him to light a fire for her like any flame this one would spread, be chaotic and unpredictable but it would never stop burning. Thinking this a small matter he agrees creates this chaos flame and shoos Celestia away.

Celestia hand the chaos flame to Twilight, who manages to contain and control it and from this designs the basic power generator, engine.....etc.

The results are promising so Celestia takes and shares it with all the nations to make the world a better place. The technology improves at a rapid pace, a worldwide industrial revolution begins.

All is well until one day for the first time in decades discord leaves his palace for whatever reason and sees his flame, contained and controlled, powering the factories, assembly lines and public transportation of the world. Feeling angry and betrayed, with a wave of his paw he extinguishes all the chaos flames world wide then vanishes into thin air.

Panic sets in the nations of the world gather, Twilight comes up with a solution, coal which at the time is found everywhere is used a a stopgap measure until they can find and reason with Discord (wood doesn't burn hot enough, charcoal cannot be produced in the quantities needed....) and all is well again.

As the years drag on and coal sources around the world dwindle trade agreements are signed for the remaining coal sources. A coalition is formed to find, Discord all nations make a contribution, ponies with their magic, griffons share their firearms, zebras bring their shamanism.....and the black book.

One day an equestrian search team finds him, Celestia herself teleports in to attempt to reason with him. Discord takes one look at the assembled ponies and gives a dire warning about the future, he knows that if he gives them back the endless flame then the majority of the world will be condemned to live in their small boring apartments, do the same boring jobs day after day, to pay for their long boring lives.

The only option Discord offers is to give up the technology he helped create, telling Celestia she might need to 'break a few eggs' he begins to disappear again. But this time the ponies are ready, the aura of the black book protects the ponies in the group from Discords influence, magically accelerated, high velocity, necromancy enhanced, starmetal bullets phase through anything he can conjure up and slam into Discord, ripping off chunks of his soul. Badly injured it only takes a weak spell from a unicorn in the group to turn Discord into stone.

Discord is brought to a hidden location, his capture is kept as a secret by Celestia until he agrees to relight the fires because the on going effort to find Discord is one of the main reason the Zebras are sharing their coal. She considers bringing in the Mane 6 to help reform him again but just as she is writing the letters a raid by the Wonderbolts to rescue hostages held by zebra gem pirates in zebra territory goes wrong.

Celestia had thought that after many years of cooperation that the Zebras would be fine with her 'helping out with a small matter', she thought wrong. The war begins.

As pony losses mount only Twilight now the head mare of the Ministry of Magic is brought before Discord, they have a long discussion blaming each other for the state of the world, concluding with 'nothing personal, just business' Twilight begins extracting compounds from discord.

Twilight tells nopony and after so many years most don't bother. The only time she considers is during the rare few times in her busy schedule when she visits Fluttershy who laments the misuse of 'Discords gift'.

The bombs fall, everypony dies.

what do you think?
you need to share your headcanon with us more often Dash clapping
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Moodyman90 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:56 am

I have to say, that was pretty damn good and meshes well with FoE canon.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Caoimhe on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:04 pm

Great synopsis! It reminds me that I need to find a new ending to all my writings other than "The bombs fall, everyone dies."

Needless to say, my college valedictorian speech didn't go over well.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Stringtheory on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:07 pm

Caoimhe wrote:Great synopsis! It reminds me that I need to find a new ending to all my writings other than "The bombs fall, everyone dies."

Needless to say, my college valedictorian speech didn't go over well.
what kind of writing are you doing?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:54 pm

Plasticube wrote:

So here is my current headcanon on this:

Spoiler:
One day Celestia visits discord in his palace in the mountains where he is allowed to do whatever he wants, all guests visit him because why go to places where ponies won't let him break the laws of physics. She asks him to light a fire for her like any flame this one would spread, be chaotic and unpredictable but it would never stop burning. Thinking this a small matter he agrees creates this chaos flame and shoos Celestia away.

Celestia hand the chaos flame to Twilight, who manages to contain and control it and from this designs the basic power generator, engine.....etc.

The results are promising so Celestia takes and shares it with all the nations to make the world a better place. The technology improves at a rapid pace, a worldwide industrial revolution begins.

All is well until one day for the first time in decades discord leaves his palace for whatever reason and sees his flame, contained and controlled, powering the factories, assembly lines and public transportation of the world. Feeling angry and betrayed, with a wave of his paw he extinguishes all the chaos flames world wide then vanishes into thin air.

Panic sets in the nations of the world gather, Twilight comes up with a solution, coal which at the time is found everywhere is used a a stopgap measure until they can find and reason with Discord (wood doesn't burn hot enough, charcoal cannot be produced in the quantities needed....) and all is well again.

As the years drag on and coal sources around the world dwindle trade agreements are signed for the remaining coal sources. A coalition is formed to find, Discord all nations make a contribution, ponies with their magic, griffons share their firearms, zebras bring their shamanism.....and the black book.

One day an equestrian search team finds him, Celestia herself teleports in to attempt to reason with him. Discord takes one look at the assembled ponies and gives a dire warning about the future, he knows that if he gives them back the endless flame then the majority of the world will be condemned to live in their small boring apartments, do the same boring jobs day after day, to pay for their long boring lives.

The only option Discord offers is to give up the technology he helped create, telling Celestia she might need to 'break a few eggs' he begins to disappear again. But this time the ponies are ready, the aura of the black book protects the ponies in the group from Discords influence, magically accelerated, high velocity, necromancy enhanced, starmetal bullets phase through anything he can conjure up and slam into Discord, ripping off chunks of his soul. Badly injured it only takes a weak spell from a unicorn in the group to turn Discord into stone.

Discord is brought to a hidden location, his capture is kept as a secret by Celestia until he agrees to relight the fires because the on going effort to find Discord is one of the main reason the Zebras are sharing their coal. She considers bringing in the Mane 6 to help reform him again but just as she is writing the letters a raid by the Wonderbolts to rescue hostages held by zebra gem pirates in zebra territory goes wrong.

Celestia had thought that after many years of cooperation that the Zebras would be fine with her 'helping out with a small matter', she thought wrong. The war begins.

As pony losses mount only Twilight now the head mare of the Ministry of Magic is brought before Discord, they have a long discussion blaming each other for the state of the world, concluding with 'nothing personal, just business' Twilight begins extracting compounds from discord.

Twilight tells nopony and after so many years most don't bother. The only time she considers is during the rare few times in her busy schedule when she visits Fluttershy who laments the misuse of 'Discords gift'.

The bombs fall, everypony dies.

what do you think?

There is a lot that works in it, and some that, I think, might not.

Spoiler:

By all indications, Equestria is already past the first two industrial revolutions, in many respects, probably in about the 1930s or so, and already has steam power and fairly large steel capacity before this episode. This, I think, requires minor tweaking to the given synopsis more than anything else.

I'm also a little confused about his prediction and threat; he's not the only spirit of chaos, and his confinement certainly didn't cause such an outcome; moreover, I would expect that "free energy" would have the opposite effect, enabling less drudgery and more individualization, but making it a threat rather than a warning--or just a lie--basically takes care of that.

I think that the synopsis's best point is how well it preserves Fluttershy's character, leaving her justified (for certain values of justified, blah blah blah) in her ignorance of the possibility of her leak backfiring.

I'm afraid I may have included too many negations in my spitballing about the Twilight requirement: she should be horrified by the flux project, even if she ultimately acquiesces with profound misgivings possibly bordering on heartbreak.

Chapter 39, (mostly) Twilight wrote:
I’ll talk with Luna. She’ll put a stop to this. She can’t know exactly what’s been done to you, Discord. You’re imprisoned. There’s no point to torture as well.
. . .
“You drilled into him?” Twilight gaped. “You drilled holes in him?!”
. . .
“Even given the cost? You’ll use flux, knowing where it comes from?” Goldenblood asked. She looked away, and he sighed. “I see.“
“I have to do this. I promised Luna that my friends and I would win this war,” Twilight Sparkle said quietly, keeping her eyes away. She stood and started away, but then she too paused. “You promised something similar, if I recall.” She started off without looking back, steps slow and heavy with the burden of knowledge.
But that's a relatively minor point.

And you have to bear in mind that what you describe is (in my opinion) not a series of events that leads the reasonable minds of Equestria, certainly those in the know, (of course, you no longer need Celestia to be reasonable: including most of Season Three kills that off; on a side note, from the end of Season Two to the current point in Season Three actually makes stronger the support for the Fo:E situation where Celestia was effectively the sole ruler of the Principality, rather than co-ruler as implied by [explicitly stated in] the series opener) to think of Discord as a danger, or a deceiver, or even the party in the wrong. I'm not sure that putting Equestria (and the world) in the position of flat-out bad guys from the beginning supports the overall tone of Fo:E or PH. And that's bearing in mind that the status quo is that Equestria (OIA under the direction of Goldenblood and Horse, with the approval of Luna) are torturing Discord, an unrepentant and incorrigible Chaos God, not a reformed but eccentric gentleman who was deceived and sorely used, as a means of profiting from his essence while perpetuating his containment--which is presented as a difficult choice for at least some and highly morally ambiguous.

From a more detail-oriented side, by my understanding the Black Book was new to the Princesses as of late in the war; so if it were involved, it must have been clandestinely. Likewise, the Zebras would not consent to being in an operation involving star metal as munitions. Moreover, the Zebras would under no circumstances trust or accept anything sourced from Discord:

Chapter 39, Goldenblood wrote:
Worse, zebra lore knows of Discord [pauses] trickster of the stars.
. . .
Indeed. Ponies aren’t the only people he’s manipulated, tormented, and hurt.
. . .
Spirits of chaos like him are well known in their culture, and of them all, Discord is the strongest and worst.

In fact, knowledge that Equestria was using such devices would, if anything, cause them to initiate hostilities, though they were willing to use him as a deterrent:

Chapter 39, Goldenblood wrote:
Even before Luna assumed the throne, zebra agents attempted to capture Discord. After what you and Celestia did to him, everypony fairly assumed he’d focus mostly on us if he got free, and that made the zebras think that they might be able to use him as a bargaining chip or deterrent. Celestia’s original solution was to have him buried here; there’s a special ore underneath Hoofington that counteracts his powers. But as the war escalated, we knew the enchantment wouldn’t last even there. His size had already increased fifty percent in just over ten years, and the petrifaction spell was already in doubt.
. . .
We had to contain him quickly. Fortunately, Luna recommended utilizing the ore we were excavating in the reconstruction, and it has indeed proven quite effective in keeping him trapped.
So he was petrified from the beginning of the war until after Luna's ascension to sole rule. You can look at the whole exchange, but it appears (to me) to imply that Discord had not been freed in the time between his petrification by the Elements in Season Two and his entombment beneath Hoofington, and that in any case Discord had done nothing further to hurt Fluttershy in particular.

I personally don't think that the synopsis offers a full reconciliation between the show and PH. Granted, it's my opinion that doing so at high quality would be impossible, as the late episode in many ways was a retcon (or at the very least a misuse) of his character and entirely changes the expressed views the Powers that Be held of him.

For a decent reflection on how I feel about the episode of itself, I suggest the most recent "One Man's Pony Ramblings" along with the first three comments (link through for the first; ctrl+f "keep calm and flutter on" to get to the relevant portion) for the expressions of some who, I think, feel similarly to me.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Meleagridis on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:29 pm

O. Hinds wrote: Honestly, why do so many people seem to think that that fics have to constantly reinvent themselves to take into account every last bit of new show canon that we get? No, really, why? I don't get it, and it really annoys me.

You may as well ask why every named background pony had to have some significant place in the war. Why Blueblood survived the radiation that killed hundreds of others in the mansion. Why Blackjack found Octavia's old place, and why it was her that Rarity chose for her soul-cutting experiment and not some other washed-up musician. Half of the fun here is fitting in the characters we know so well into a foreign narrative like little puzzle pieces. When another chunk of lore comes out, we scramble to fit all the new pieces into the puzzle. Not because we need them to fit... more because it is fun to fit them in.
Sometimes people can go overboard... bend over backwards to fit something. But as long as you don't force anything, what's the harm?

CamoBadger wrote:
The first time they actually met...I think it was when the went to the Star House for the first time and Lacunae was in there for some reason.
She lived there I think. BJ walks up into her stalker's home at random.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:12 pm

Meleagridis wrote:
O. Hinds wrote: Honestly, why do so many people seem to think that that fics have to constantly reinvent themselves to take into account every last bit of new show canon that we get? No, really, why? I don't get it, and it really annoys me.

You may as well ask why every named background pony had to have some significant place in the war. Why Blueblood survived the radiation that killed hundreds of others in the mansion. Why Blackjack found Octavia's old place, and why it was her that Rarity chose for her soul-cutting experiment and not some other washed-up musician. Half of the fun here is fitting in the characters we know so well into a foreign narrative like little puzzle pieces. When another chunk of lore comes out, we scramble to fit all the new pieces into the puzzle. Not because we need them to fit... more because it is fun to fit them in.
Sometimes people can go overboard... bend over backwards to fit something. But as long as you don't force anything, what's the harm?
None, but I've gotten the impression that it often is forced. I suppose that that could be based on a combination of bad experiences and high standards, though.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ketchup on Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:52 pm

Lyra is fused to a bench in Canterlot. Not all of them get important roles.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Meleagridis on Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:46 pm

Ketchup wrote:Lyra is fused to a bench in Canterlot. Not all of them get important roles.

She was also working in the MAS and was a guess on one of the trickster stars... actually, this one surprises me a little. Lyra was always a bit of a fan favourite yet she barely got any mention in FOE or any side story I've read. Most of the others with a name have gotten honorable mention. Hm.

But even getting fused to a bench is a deliberate callout- a specific reference to Lyra instead of an unfortunate nameless who was frozen in a position more standard. It's integrating the show. Not as drastic as adapting canon, but it's the same driving force. "Let's fit this in."
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ketchup on Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:53 pm

I don't recall Bonbon at all, myself.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Exodus Hero on Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:01 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Meleagridis wrote:
O. Hinds wrote: Honestly, why do so many people seem to think that that fics have to constantly reinvent themselves to take into account every last bit of new show canon that we get? No, really, why? I don't get it, and it really annoys me.

You may as well ask why every named background pony had to have some significant place in the war. Why Blueblood survived the radiation that killed hundreds of others in the mansion. Why Blackjack found Octavia's old place, and why it was her that Rarity chose for her soul-cutting experiment and not some other washed-up musician. Half of the fun here is fitting in the characters we know so well into a foreign narrative like little puzzle pieces. When another chunk of lore comes out, we scramble to fit all the new pieces into the puzzle. Not because we need them to fit... more because it is fun to fit them in.
Sometimes people can go overboard... bend over backwards to fit something. But as long as you don't force anything, what's the harm?
None, but I've gotten the impression that it often is forced. I suppose that that could be based on a combination of bad experiences and high standards, though.

I'll say this much, it could be an interesting plot tool to use for Discord in the story. Lets say for the sake of argument that Somber decides he wants to incorporate the new episode into the PH story line. It would be easy to say that Discord was able to manipulate the minds of every pony in order to further an unknown cause, which would explain why Twilight or Golden Blood don't talk about the current episode's events. Further more, it could amplify his malevolence of his and make interesting plot twist if Discord were ever to come back. Lots of potential and no need to retcon anything from the previous chapters. Food for thought.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Derpmind on Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:40 pm

Exodus Hero wrote:I'll say this much, it could be an interesting plot tool to use for Discord in the story. Lets say for the sake of argument that Somber decides he wants to incorporate the new episode into the PH story line. It would be easy to say that Discord was able to manipulate the minds of every pony in order to further an unknown cause, which would explain why Twilight or Golden Blood don't talk about the current episode's events. Further more, it could amplify his malevolence of his and make interesting plot twist if Discord were ever to come back. Lots of potential and no need to retcon anything from the previous chapters. Food for thought.

The real problem is that Somber would have to retcon away all the bad writing in the episode. I enjoyed the episode, but that's in spite of everything the writer did. Just thinking about the writing in that episode curls my thoughts in bad directions. It's like listening to someone scratch a blackboard, only the claws are made of narrative stupidity and the blackboard's our beloved show.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:55 pm

Meleagridis wrote:
But even getting fused to a bench is a deliberate callout- a specific reference to Lyra instead of an unfortunate nameless who was frozen in a position more standard. It's integrating the show. Not as drastic as adapting canon, but it's the same driving force. "Let's fit this in."

Sure, both might be motivated by the same instincts, but the two are categorically different things, particularly where new information is concerned. Incorporating, say, Shining Armor would require rethinking Twilight, her mother, the fate of Canterlot, et cetera; using the second Trixie episode would pretty much contradict established Fo:E canon regarding her interactions with Twilight. Incorporating the Flim Flam Brothers required . . . absolutely nothing. There was never indication that they ever did, or did not, have an impact on events prior to their inclusion in PH.

I'm sure that nobody has said anything against using new things in the show in general. That would be kind of dumb, considering this is fan fiction we're talking about. But many have pointed out the importance of selectivity, and at least one or two have argued for the primacy of Fo:E canon over FiM canon after some point in Season Two.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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