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[Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Frost on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:22 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:
cb5 wrote:Is red a okay color for your flag?
Well, any way you look at it, it's still red, white and blue Spike 
You can always tell it's not the real French flag so long as there's more than white.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Scienza on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:24 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:
Scyto Harmony wrote:Think about us up north. We have a VERY co-dependent relationship with the US. If they default I can guarantee the Canadian economy will take a huge hit as well.
let's be clear :

The weight of the US economy alone, and its position on the world markets of pretty much every resources or goods, either as an exporter or importer, make it a central element of the world economy.

Even countries which directly don't have much trade going on with the US will feel the economic impact sooner or later, as their trade partners who are more exposed to US trades will begin to feel the blow.


Remember "too big to fail" ? That's the US and the world economy in a nutshell.
It will never cease to depress me that the very worst aspects of our society, the oligarchs and the ignorant, continue to dominate our political environment and make decisions that affect not only us but the world at large.

And to top it all off, my vote doesn't mean shit since I don't have a voting representative.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Scyto Harmony on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:26 pm

cb5 wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:@ CB5 : Well, a choice has been made long ago (roughly, in the 50's/60's) :

After two world wars, it had become clear to the proponents of the European idea that, well, Europe had difficulties handling its shit enough to not descend into intestine warfare when the times get rough. So we (sub?)consciously took the collective decision to have the smallest possible militaries to do the job.

Unfortunately it was also the Cold War, and we were also engaged (France at least) in a few de-colonization conflicts, so concessions had to be made and we kept a relatively reasonable military, to keep pace with both our Ally (the US) and our enemies (the Warsaw Pact and the various third-world nations we had decided to piss off).

Then the end of the Cold War happened, and since then, due mostly to budgetary constraints, but encouraged by the public opinion, defense fundings have been getting slashed more and more, to the point where even if technically is, like, the fourth country in the world in term of defense budget spending, we struggled to even sustain what little action we did during the Libyan Campaign, having to rest on the US to do the heavy lifting.


The European Union has been built on Peace, for Peace. We are simply not geared to deal frontally, as a whole, with something like a belligerent Russia.
The only way I can see you guys not becoming forced "buddies" with russia is if you form a united states of europe.  Combining all the military forces of members of the EU under one nation and one flag would cause putin to back the fuck off.  He's picking on you cause you're divided into small nations and knows if it comes down to it he can just take you over one by one until you're under him.

The only real alternative to making a united states of europe so that putin doesn't try to start shit is pray that the usa holds it's midterm elections before he starts something.
As long as they don't call themselves 'The United ____ of Europe.'. Because then we'd have 2 major countries in the world without a real fucking name. United States of America is not a name, it's a description.


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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Ketchup on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:26 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:
Scyto Harmony wrote:Think about us up north. We have a VERY co-dependent relationship with the US. If they default I can guarantee the Canadian economy will take a huge hit as well.
let's be clear :

The weight of the US economy alone, and its position on the world markets of pretty much every resources or goods, either as an exporter or importer, make it a central element of the world economy.

Even countries which directly don't have much trade going on with the US will feel the economic impact sooner or later, as their trade partners who are more exposed to US trades will begin to feel the blow.


Remember "too big to fail" ? That's the US and the world economy in a nutshell.
It'd be a blow to the worldwide economy. It may be better to break away from the US to some degree in the long run, but until that happens many countries are vulnerable to an American economic disaster.

I don't think military action will happen in eastern Europe. Why would it? Even with the United States(they aren't the world's "valiant protector of everyone" or whatever) out of the picture, the EU has plans for defence of member nations and is not helpless militarily.
War is overrated.
As for Russia taking over Europe bit-by-bit, I think that's a tad unrealistic. Someone would do something about it if it were to happen. Tickling/prodding it economically is another matter entirely.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Frost on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:41 pm

Ketchup wrote: I think that's a tad unrealistic.
What I think is a tad unrealistic is the government actually defaulting. What's going on right now is just a slightly more severe case of what's been going on for the past five years--we've not actually passed a budget since Obama's been elected; just passed continuances. This cock-fight between Boehner and Obama is just that--a political game of chicken that'll last a few days more, at most, before one side or another caves.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Ketchup on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:47 pm

Mister Frost wrote:
Ketchup wrote: I think that's a tad unrealistic.
What I think is a tad unrealistic is the government actually defaulting. What's going on right now is just a slightly more severe case of what's been going on for the past five years--we've not actually passed a budget since Obama's been elected; just past continuances. This cock-fight between Boehner and Obama is just that--a political game of chicken that'll last a few days more, at most, before one side or another caves.
It probably won't, they'll come to some sort of agreement before it results in a default. Unless the collective head-up-assness is higher than I see.
The United States has an economy in which the military is very important as well. Part of the reason, AFAIK, that the military hasn't downsized very significantly in a while.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Overlong Analysis Cobalt on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:49 pm

Ironic that the closest we've come (probably) to an anarchist revolution since the Paris Commune is because big government is just really, really bad at existing. =P
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Frost on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:50 pm

Ketchup wrote:The United States has an economy in which the military is very important as well. Part of the reason, AFAIK, that the military hasn't downsized very significantly in a while.
Which is a shame, because I could talk your ear off about how we could trim the fat from the military without actually lessening its strength.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:55 pm

These fucking contractors.

It never cease to amaze me how much money the US is able to blow on shit no one cares about apart from the senators / representative who are going to benefit from the contract one way or another.


And those fucking R&D clusterfucks.

The Bradley. The F-35. There's a point where you needed to stop with that F-35, and you clearly passed it. Now you're stuck with that POS for at least the twenty or thirty years to come.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Ketchup on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:57 pm

Mister Frost wrote:
Ketchup wrote:The United States has an economy in which the military is very important as well. Part of the reason, AFAIK, that the military hasn't downsized very significantly in a while.
Which is a shame, because I could talk your ear off about how we could trim the fat from the military without actually lessening its strength.
I think the US have so many toys that cost ridiculous amounts of money but do the job of something cheaper 1.1 times better. The amount of people working on ways to kill people, or protect other people from being killed in the US is huge. Also, inefficiencies in all sorts of systems that I don't know much about.

To continue the fat metaphor, they get fed too much.

I'd actually like to hear that rant, actually.
Harmony Ltd. wrote:These fucking contractors.

It never cease to amaze me how much money the US is able to blow on shit no one cares about apart from the senators / representative who are going to benefit from the contract one way or another.


And those fucking R&D clusterfucks.

The Bradley. The F-35. There's a point where you needed to stop with that F-35, and you clearly passed it. Now you're stuck with that POS for at least the twenty or thirty years to come.
Yes. People getting paid to waste the government's time.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by swicked on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:00 pm

So much money going to the US Treasury and should be, but isn't, funding our government...
I really wish Congress had at least passed some caveat that caused it all to be put against the debt in the meantime.

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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Scyto Harmony on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:02 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:The Bradley. The F-35. There's a point where you needed to stop with that F-35, and you clearly passed it. Now you're stuck with that POS for at least the twenty or thirty years to come.
Could be worse. I could be butchering this story because I'm going by memory, But the Canadian government also paid a ridiculous amount for F-35's that we're never going to use. What makes it a could be worse? We didn't buy them with the engines.

Again, this was a while ago so I don't remember much, but it was something like super expensive for the jets, and like, double that for the engines.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Moodyman90 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:03 pm

Oddly enough I haven't heard about anything from China about all of this.
Did some digging and other than how Obama had to cancel going to the first Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation forum and comments on how "the US defaulting would hurt everybody", nothing.



But I know one way to free up some funds. Obviously not enough to fix all the problems, but maybe cut the salary of those in office in half, make them use the same healthcare that everybody else does, cut the money they get when they get out of office in half.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:05 pm

Scyto Harmony wrote:As long as they don't call themselves 'The United ____ of Europe.'. Because then we'd have 2 major countries in the world without a real fucking name. United States of America is not a name, it's a description.
If anything, we'll just continue to call ourselves the European Union most probably.

But I doubt it'll happen anytime soon.

Don't get me wrong : I dream of being able to see an European Federation in my living time, but the prospects really don't look good on that front.

The European Union, as a political entity, is currently clinically dead as far as I can tell. The Triad (Germany, France, UK) have wildly divergent interests on a wide range of issue (economic, diplomatic, military, etc...), and none of them is willing to surrender its sovereignty on these topics if it means that they won't be getting their ways.


But even then, the problem of a Federalized Europe would be that, without sugar-coating it, we're just too different from each other. There are currently 28 member countries in the European Union, with wildly different economies, requiring differing fiscal policies for each to stay competitive (read : for money to keep going in instead of out), and that any sort of one-size-fits-all solution in this area is doomed to crash and burn horribly.


To help nothing, the European union in its present form is a Technocracy, the common people having little to no say in the governing process of the Union. There's a parliament, but from what I get it often get told to stay silent in the corner while the adults talk.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Frost on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:07 pm

Ketchup wrote:I'd actually like to hear that rant, actually.
It's a lot like Harmony said, really--culture in general, but especially the politicians who really pull the military's puppet/purse strings are obsessed with the idea of bleeding-edge technology. Rather than, say, stick to a solid workhorse vehicle and keep a smaller number of niche equipment around, they're always blowing millions on R&D (I initially typed D&D. I'm not sure how you could spend millions on a game of D&D unless you were hiring Peter Jackson to direct it and breeding your own dragons and orcs for it) that could be better spent on training personnel, modernizing back-logged equipment, ect. History and just basic logic tell us one thing--as long as you have solid communication and logistics, you'll win over the guys who have the biggest boom. We don't need a fleet of B2 bombers that cost more than fucking space shuttles (I've not checked the numbers in a while, but I don't think that's much of an exaggeration) when we have tons of modular, solid and easily-modernized bombers. We don't need the latest-and-greatest fighter jet so long as the pilot's well-trained and the plane is running. Not to mention hardly anything is recycled--there really are "boneyards" full of completely discarded aircraft, still full of recyclable and usable material. 

In short--Standardize, modernize, and build according to needs, not "this new thingy is shiny". It's more an issue for the vehicles, because, comparatively speaking, dumb grunts like myself cost a pittance no matter how much you indulge.


Last edited by Mister Frost on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:13 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:But even then, the problem of a Federalized Europe would be that, without sugar-coating it, we're just too different from each other. There are currently 28 member countries in the European Union, with wildly different economies, requiring differing fiscal policies for each to stay competitive (read : for money to keep going in instead of out), and that any sort of one-size-fits-all solution in this area is doomed to crash and burn horribly.
(which is, by the way, the exact thing that is currently happening with the Euro crisis)
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Moodyman90 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:20 pm

GOD! DAMN IT! CNN! Why in the hell are ya'll covering Samsung unveiling the Galaxy with rounded edges?
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by cb5 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:21 pm

There is one thing we should be thankful for is that the republican party next year after the midterms is going to be the extinct party with how badly their approval rating is plummeting.  Then maybe shit can get done.
Moodyman90 wrote:GOD! DAMN IT! CNN! Why in the hell are ya'll covering Samsung unveiling the Galaxy with rounded edges?
Cause 24/7 news has a terminal case of stupidity.


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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Ketchup on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:22 pm

Mister Frost wrote:snip
Indeed, logistics and the capacity to actually field an army is more important than having the newest gear(M2 Brownings are still doing what they were built to do, and the design is 95 years old). The US has an excellent logistic capacity, but it can't really support a full-scale war without modifications. Unless you guys wanted to invade Canada, that'd be easy because it's just a walk North.

The boneyards are apparently for future conflicts or something silly like that. They can't afford to just put all that crap back into service when war comes calling. Better to just scrap it or, better yet, sell it.

And yes, it'd be very difficult to spent millions on a game of D&D.Spike 
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Frost on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:30 pm

Ketchup wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:snip
Indeed, logistics and the capacity to actually field an army is more important than having the newest gear(M2 Brownings are still doing what they were built to do, and the design is 95 years old). The US has an excellent logistic capacity, but it can't really support a full-scale war without modifications. Unless you guys wanted to invade Canada, that'd be easy because it's just a walk North.

The boneyards are apparently for future conflicts or something silly like that. They can't afford to just put all that crap back into service when war comes calling. Better to just scrap it or, better yet, sell it.

And yes, it'd be very difficult to spent millions on a game of D&D.Spike 
The current military needs to take notes from the military of WWII: keep things, relatively speaking, simple and less expensive, easy to produce in large numbers. I won't pretend to know enough about armored vehicles or aeronautics to talk at length on the subject, but many examples speak for themselves--the "Warthog", for instance, is godlike when it comes to ground-support, being able to fly with half the airframe blown out and principally delivering death not through comparatively expensive missiles or bombs, but good ol' explosive rounds shot from a big damn gun. Traditional artillery, likewise, lets you rain death on an enemy position from miles away for a fraction of the cost of airstrikes and cruise missiles (such is the advantage of lobbing boom-boom at a target rather than trying to fly an explosive computer at them). 

Snipers are likewise in high demand nowadays because they area massive force-multiplier for a military presence in the area while being cheaper than any armored vehicle or attack chopper--at the end of the day, they're guys with rifles and PDA's that blow your head up with math.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:31 pm

@ Frost : to be fair, the pressure the US military has is that since, pfft, I don't know when, there's been more and more pressure put on the institution to limit as much as possible casualties and death of military personnel in operation.

This driving concept has led us to absurd things like the GCV, an Armoured Personnel Carrier that weighs more than 80 metric tons, almost thirty tons more than an Abrams, the majority of it being armor.

Or you can see the strategic effect, as the US is less and less keen on sending actual boots on the ground, leading to the rise of the Drones as the current, "be-all end-all" of military hardware. Which in turn shapes the global US strategy (not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's a fact).



Then you get into the silly stuff like the DDG-1000 Zumwalt, literally a modern Battleship, but stealthy, built to be fitted with the Naval Railgun once the technology becomes mature enough ; and so bleeding edge that almost everything in it is new and needs to be debugged on its own and in coordination with the other systems, incurring more cost overruns and project delays that you can imagine.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Frost on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:39 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:@ Frost : to be fair, the pressure the US military has is that since, pfft, I don't know when, there's been more and more pressure put on the institution to limit as much as possible casualties and death of military personnel in operation.
Here's a freebie for anyone who wants to run a military operation and minimize deaths--Proper intel/scouting, caution, coordination and situational awareness. Train the individual soldiers better, give them the equipment they need to stay connected and up-to-the-minute on the situation, and be liberal in dealing with anything threatening. 

It's not just military, it's a universal truth--don't brute force your way through problems that could be solved with a bit of finesse. Don't kick down a door when you can unlock it, don't use a clawhammer when a chisel will do, don't start a bonfire when a candle is needed--the metaphors go on and on.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by cb5 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:42 pm

Mister Frost wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:@ Frost : to be fair, the pressure the US military has is that since, pfft, I don't know when, there's been more and more pressure put on the institution to limit as much as possible casualties and death of military personnel in operation.
Here's a freebie for anyone who wants to run a military operation and minimize deaths--Proper intel/scouting, caution, coordination and situational awareness. Train the individual soldiers better, give them the equipment they need to stay connected and up-to-the-minute on the situation, and be liberal in dealing with anything threatening. 

It's not just military, it's a universal truth--don't brute force your way through problems that could be solved with a bit of finesse. Don't kick down a door when you can unlock it, don't use a clawhammer when a chisel will do, don't start a bonfire when a candle is needed--the metaphors go on and on.
Don't use a cruise missile in a crowded neighborhood when a specops team is needed.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:42 pm

But anyway, If I were to have a say in the US military "grand strategy", I'd be a proponent of strengthening the Navy in its role of police of the world's maritime trade lines and first vector of US power projection ; cut the fat from the airforce and severely downsizing the orders for F-35 planes (as few as possible while not compromising the investment of the other countries having participated in the project), replaced by (for example) modernized versions of the F/A-18, and new orders of F-22 if necessary to fill the air-superiority role if it were needed ; downsize both the US Army and the Marines. The National Guard IIRC is the responsibility of the individual States, so it isn't really a matter ofdiscussion.

The Coast Guard, of course, is not to be fucked with.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Frost on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:47 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:But anyway, If I were to have a say in the US military "grand strategy", I'd be a proponent of strengthening the Navy in its role of police of the world's maritime trade lines and first vector of US power projection ; cut the fat from the airforce and severely downsizing the orders for F-35 planes (as few as possible while not compromising the investment of the other countries having participated in the project), replaced by (for example) modernized versions of the F/A-18, and new orders of F-22 if necessary to fill the air-superiority role if it were needed ; downsize both the US Army and the Marines. The National Guard IIRC is the responsibility of the individual States, so it isn't really a matter ofdiscussion.

The Coast Guard, of course, is not to be fucked with.
You're the local expert on aviation, I think, so I'll take your word on the planes.

Honestly, the Army and Marines are completely redundant, but neither side's "proud history" will let them admit that just fusing them into a unified combined-arms ground-fighting branch would be a pretty damn smart use of resources.

As I've alluded to, use of force-multipliers like special forces and snipers is better than just throwing brute force at the problem. That's why I'm keeping my eyes and ears open for any possibilities of joining up with, say, an airborne or light infantry unit (I've no illusions of being able to make it in SF myself, at least not in my current state)
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Moodyman90 on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:49 pm

To show how much I actually pay attention, I still thought that the F-22 were still the new shit and didn't even know about the F-35.

The fuck are they for? Shooting down the aliens spaceships when they come? Or was the military so ashamed that Micheal Bay used the 22s in the Transformers movies and wanted to move on as fast as they could?
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by O. Hinds on Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:54 pm

Scienza wrote:And to top it all off, my vote doesn't mean shit since I don't have a voting representative.
Could be worse. In the last presidential election, our wonderful "democratic" system counted me as a point for Romney/Ryan just because of where I lived.

Also, in the class I just came from, there was, just before class started, a student commenting that, actually, the shutdown was a good thing, since the government just pushes things to instability. I'm rather glad that class started then, as I don't know where one would even start attacking that.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:04 pm

Mister Frost wrote:You're the local expert on aviation, I think, so I'll take your word on the planes.
I wouldn't if I were you. :v

But to be more precise :

- Transport plane & aerial refueling planes : the US needs as much of them as it can get its dirty hands on, due to the fact it's fucking everywhere on that goddamn planet, and that shit won't ship itself to the battlefield. Carte Blanche as far as expanding the capacity there goes.
- Intelligence & Electronic warfare planes : as a rule of thumb, the US needs more intelligence, not less, so I say if you can manage to use the money you save elsewhere to increase the already massive superiority the US has in that domain, that could be a very good force multiplier to fit in the Grand Strategy.
- Fighter planes : The US has (IIRC) currently more than 2,500-3,000 fighter planes of all kinds in service between all branches of the armed forces (do the National Guard(s) really need to have their own airforces ?...). This is like twice or thrice more than all of the european airforces combined, transport and utility planes included. I think it is a relatively reasonable assessment that the US doesn't need to maintain so many of these planes in active service. The oldest ones could probably be mothballed without too much trouble for the whole US strategy to still work.
- Strategic Bombers : The B-52 can't be produced anymore as the necessary tooling has been scrapped decades ago. The B-2 is horrendously expensive, but there's already, like, only 10-15 of them in service. That leaves the B-1B, which isn't bad, but costs a shitload of money to fly when it does fly. But even then, I'm not sure how often the US does use these bombers. They sure are useful when comes the time to declare war to Iraq, Iran, or any enemy with significant armed forces in need of carpet bombing. I'd say that a part of the budget that although may not see much use, needs to be kept.


If you really want to start saving money on the Airforce, though, think about all these airbases you have around the world, and have a look at how much it costs you to keep them online.
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:08 pm

Moodyman90 wrote:To show how much I actually pay attention, I still thought that the F-22 were still the new shit and didn't even know about the F-35.

The fuck are they for? Shooting down the aliens spaceships when they come? Or was the military so ashamed that Micheal Bay used the 22s in the Transformers movies and wanted to move on as fast as they could?
They wanted a F-22-lite that could be the workhorse of the Air Force, the Navy and the Marines as far as multirole fighters go - thus the name of the program : Joint Strike Fighter.

Most of the money went on making the plane as stealthy as they could make it. Note that I didn't use the term "reasonably".

Thus, the problem is that in the process of pursuing that goal they stripped the plane of most of its armament, and it only has a single engine instead of two like almost all other modern fighter planes.

Derpy Hooves 
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

Post by Frost on Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:10 pm

So, in practical terms, it's much like I've been saying--focus on intelligence and logistics rather than brute force (partly because the only gap in the fence on that front is strategic bombers, which have rather heavily fallen out of favor nowadays)
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Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

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