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[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overthepacific on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:21 pm

Kippershy wrote:
Spoiler:
A guy called Squeak posted this. Squeak is known for the amazing radio plays he's doing right now (FOE radio plays).
There's actually a thread for them here, though I don't think he himself is a member.

Before I post it, he also had this to say:

">>9545257
<blockquote class="postMessage" id="m9545388">
Well
I suppose so, though mind you it's got some errors here and there
because I typed it rather quickly and I don't tend to edit myself much
on imageboards. I'm not sure it would help, but you're welcome to.

>>9545336
Oh God, I hope this doesn't draw me much flack, I don't mean to start a war, I'm just stretching my inner English Major a bit."</blockquote>

Anyway...



Now of course with Blackjack this problem is turned up to 11. Her
character arc on killing almost peaks form the word go. She's killed
before the story ever started, More directly with P21's lover and indirectly with the 'Retirement' scenario.
She then is forced to kill again at the start of the story when raiders
invade. For BJ killing was always an option on the table, she's been
trained to deal with it, and lives in a world with other violent
females. She sees death on a regular basis, from accidents to escape
attempts. She's already kind of dealing with this when we come in, as
she thinks about where the food comes from. Her situation is wildly
different from Littlepips, thus her character arc should be different.
But the main problem is, it isn't. Somber kind of tries to follow the
same steps the original story took and it doesn't work as well.
Blackjack has a weapon from the word Go, she kills from the word Go, and
she is in no way the innocent stable dweller archetype. This is a
problem the story faces from page one, but one that can be overlooked
because Blackjack has not been presented with a crisis of character yet,
so the arc is still young. What should have happened in PH was that her
ultimate crisis of character on the issue of killing should have come
after Returning to Stable 99 to find it was now a raider camp, and the eventual gassing of everyone inside.
You can't get more of a crisis than that. That was an emotional peek,
you can't really top it from BJ's perspective. No matter who else dies
in the story, she has already faced the darkest personal possibility she
could. After this crisis she should have had a moment to come to terms
with what happened, and as referenced earlier, take her philosophy and
either validate it, or dump it and take up a new one, starting a new
arc. The problem with PH is, after facing her darkest possible outcome,
she remains the same, and that doesn't work.

Afterwards the story starts to meander, because BJ has reached her peek
not even half way through. You've explored BJ in totality and not given
it's not given closure. Therefore any character arcs along the same
lines can only be retreads, and retreads just don't work as far as story
goes. At this point, the only viable option would be a switch of POV,
which doens't ultimately make sense in this type of story, or having
Blackjack try to help someone else explore their character arc. Which PH
really doesn't do. It attempts to have a secondary character arc
involving how BJ deals with her sexual experiences and how they affect
the people around her. But again that has already peeked halfway through
the story. She facilitated rape, then ultimately gets raped. you
can't have a more cut and dry arc than that. But it's muddled by the
fact that it's mixed with the unfufilled arc of her attitude towards
killing. And ultimately by the time she comes to greet her rapist
a second time, this unfulfilled arc just tangles with the one we should
be going through and spoils what should've been its conclusion. And
even before that it was handled rather poorly Blackjack is presented
with a struggle after the incident, but the way she gets over it isn't
in any way satisfying or human (Well Equine...) if she wanted to get
through this arc, she should have gotten through it Glory, and then THAT
would have had problems because Glory ultimately has unfinished arcs as
well that would have muddied it further.

TL;DR
PH suffers
from the same problem as a lot of animes, setting up an arc, and then
not closing it for 400 episodes keeping the characters in purgatory.

And
mind you I'm saying all this as someone who still READS the bloody
thing. This is one of the main issues with cloudsdale, they cannot seem
to look at anything they enjoy under a critical light. "


---
I'd call that constructive. He explains where he feels it goes wrong and what he thinks should have been done.

But in all seriousness, the whole killing arc thing I can agree with. After the stable, she really shouldn't have the problem that she does now.

DONT READ THIS IF YOU DONT WANT TO SEE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK:
Hey, I warned you:
Killing her entire stable should have been the great innocence breaker for her, not like her first accidental kill with scoodle, but the one that ultimately broke her. She did end up almost killing herself, but the events after that took a turn from emotionally understandable, to just plain annoying. Right now, killing anything shouldn't be a problem for her after killing all of her lifelong friends from her old home. From an emotional point of view, nothing else should even scratch the surface of phasing her like it should. Shes all angst and pity party, even at killing a raider now.

Yeah, I can get the whole "do better" thing. But honestly, that shouldn't be blackjack, that should be glory trying to fight with her about turning into a murderer. Not her carrying around an arsenal just to break down everytime she actually hits something. Her character took a turn for what seems like was supposed to be more of a side character, who tries to help from the outside. Overall, after a certain point the entirety of her character changes into something that most poeple just do not want to see in the position of a main character, and it shows throughout the latest chapters in a way.

I would be so much more excited to read about blackjack turning into a cold killing machine and her friends trying to bring her back from ultimately being the maiden of the stars, against Blackjacks pent up anger and hate. That's really the path I'd like to see explored, it would be much more interesting than her sexuality in any case.

Downloaded Skill wrote:I wouldn't say that BJ hasn't changed a lot post-33 though. She has
calmed down a lot, become more reasonable and somewhat smarter if still
lacking in sense. With recent developments though the focus is more on
the wasteland than interpersonal interactions which I'm somewhat sad
about.

She has changed in a lot of ways, and then stayed the same for too long. Its been more than 20 chapters since thirty three. At this point it doesnt matter if she changed after 33, its more the fact that she hasnt changed much after that and what she changed into. That's where the problem lies.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:35 pm

Hey kipper, you wanna know why so few here respect your precious 4chan?
And
mind you I'm saying all this as someone who still READS the bloody
thing. This is one of the main issues with cloudsdale, they cannot seem
to look at anything they enjoy under a critical light. "
They don't even try to figure out what we talk about here; they just think we're all a bunch of sycophants (well... cocksuckers, sycophants is a little too complex a word for their like), only making an exception for snipe and only after he actually left the editor's team. If he was still a part of them, no matter how loud his objections to the direction of the fic, they'd see him as "incapable of looking at things in a critical light".
And since they just make assumptions based on the worse denominator, and we make assumptions right back at them based on their own worst death-worshiping asshole denominator. This is the internet; leave your maturity at the door 'cause turnabout is fair play.

That's the long and short of it, in my eyes. They don't respect us, we don't respect them... really, to get technical, they respect next to nothing, and they get next to no respect back from anywhere. Odd, how that works.

Honestly, every time one of them forms a well-articulated opinion just to buck the curve, then ends it with a "fuck you, cloudsdale" or the like, I'm less and less inclined to pretend their opinion is worthwhile, let alone unique. Not that your opinion is any better when you don't even actually read what you're forming opinions on.

Honestly, I blame you for all of this, though. Stop talking to them about us, and stop talking to us about them. Quote posts by them, if you feel you must, but don't cite them and just plain leave off the stupid little potshots, unless you think Somber hearing we suck is REALLY helping the work. Their opinion matters to us as little as our opinion matters to them, and you're doing yourself no favours playing messenger-boy.

..oh, and just to come clean, this is the third revision of this post. The first two contained a LOT more profanity. Today was an epically terrible day and I spent most of it learning how much worse the coming days are going to be.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Downloaded Skill on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:44 pm

I've been interpreting it as trying to hold on to her last bits of morality. Shes fine with killing people who can fight, but non-combatants really get to her.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by squeak-anon on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:54 pm

Spoiler:
swicked wrote:Hey kipper, you wanna know why so few here respect your precious 4chan?
And
mind you I'm saying all this as someone who still READS the bloody
thing. This is one of the main issues with cloudsdale, they cannot seem
to look at anything they enjoy under a critical light. "
They don't even try to figure out what we talk about here; they just think we're all a bunch of sycophants (well... cocksuckers, sycophants is a little too complex a word for their like), only making an exception for snipe and only after he actually left the editor's team. If he was still a part of them, no matter how loud his objections to the direction of the fic, they'd see him as "incapable of looking at things in a critical light".
And since they just make assumptions based on the worse denominator, and we make assumptions right back at them based on their own worst death-worshiping asshole denominator. This is the internet; leave your maturity at the door 'cause turnabout is fair play.

That's the long and short of it, in my eyes. They don't respect us, we don't respect them... really, to get technical, they respect next to nothing, and they get next to no respect back from anywhere. Odd, how that works.

Honestly, every time one of them forms a well-articulated opinion just to buck the curve, then ends it with a "fuck you, cloudsdale" or the like, I'm less and less inclined to pretend their opinion is worthwhile, let alone unique. Not that your opinion is any better when you don't even actually read what you're forming opinions on.

Honestly, I blame you for all of this, though. Stop talking to them about us, and stop talking to us about them. Quote posts by them, if you feel you must, but don't cite them and just plain leave off the stupid little potshots, unless you think Somber hearing we suck is REALLY helping the work. Their opinion matters to us as little as our opinion matters to them, and you're doing yourself no favours playing messenger-boy.

..oh, and just to come clean, this is the third revision of this post. The first two contained a LOT more profanity. Today was an epically terrible day and I spent most of it learning how much worse the coming days are going to be.

Hello! Sticking my toe in here, never really posted here before. Just stopping by to say I will admit that not ALL of the people here fall under that umbrella. It's more of a statement of a trend I'm noticing in general. Like there's a fear of negative commentary on things we enjoy. This is kind of the opposite to the 4chan mentality which is actually an interesting little juxtaposition. The general 4chan state of mind is thought to be that any positive opinion doesn't carry much weight and that a negative opinion automatically holds more value over a positive one for the sake of being unique. While the general thought of this forum around a few places is that positive opinions are valued higher than the negative so negative opinions are automatically disregarded. Of course neither of these thoughts on either site is true, and both has different sets of values for negative and positive opinions. I think the main section of consternation between the two parties is mostly do to what I've noticed as a general fear about negative commentary, that it will 'Harm' Somber in some way. I was looking here for the first time after Kips posted my argument and I was surprised that one of the first arguments posed against it did not address the argument, but instead went to the idea that my particular opinion on the story was hurting Somber in some way. I don't find this a particularly valid argument against criticism as we cannot simply only point out the good in anything in particular. And I think that this is what breeds the lack of respect and particular interest in your forum, and perhaps the visa-versa if you took the logical criticism (As some of you have done I will point out, nicely done) and responded to them with the praises or personal opinions it might go over better. But it seems both parties have created a hyperboled stereotype of eachother which breeds an unhealthy atmosphere for any kind of logical conversation. I am not trying to injure anyone with my words, I am simply offering my opinion on what I found to be wrong with the story, and in the same thread of conversation I rather started picking out problems with Fallout Equestria as well. I LIKE both these stories and my critisims are in no way intended to injure the pride, or physical being of the writer, simply to offer my opinion as a reader to what he or she has written.

In anycase, back to the depths of radioplay writing for me. Toodles.

-Squeak-anon
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overthepacific on Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:56 pm

swicked wrote:They don't even try to figure out what we talk about here; they just think we're all a bunch of sycophants (well... cocksuckers, sycophants is a little too complex a word for their like), only making an exception for snipe and only after he actually left the editor's team. If he was still a part of them, no matter how loud his objections to the direction of the fic, they'd see him as "incapable of looking at things in a critical light".
And since they just make assumptions based on the worse denominator, and we make assumptions right back at them based on their own worst death-worshiping asshole denominator. This is the internet; leave your maturity at the door 'cause turnabout is fair play.

That's the long and short of it, in my eyes. They don't respect us, we don't respect them... really, to get technical, they respect next to nothing, and they get next to no respect back from anywhere. Odd, how that works.


Alright swicked. I came here from /mlp/. I posted there a long time before I ever did here. I always checked this thread for updates and even read along sometimes. Who's to say I'm the only one like this? Maybe they just havent spoken up yet like I did. Not everbody is one side or the other with this.

I dont feel like I embody any of that. Do you? Am I just part of a disrespectful hate machine along with everyone else there? Should you disregard me, or anyone else coming from there just because of a previous forum? Starting a hate war between the two sides isnt getting anywhere.

No two people are the same. Sure some of that image board is lacking in the morality department, but that doesnt mean every single person that posts as anonymous is like that. I agree it would be a lot better if we just didnt reveal where the complaint came from because of this, but some see otherwise.

swicked wrote:
..oh, and just to come clean, this is the third revision of this post. The first two contained a LOT more profanity. Today was an epically terrible day and I spent most of it learning how much worse the coming days are going to be.

For what its worth, I hope everything gets better for you, and you have my sympathy.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overthepacific on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:04 pm

Downloaded Skill wrote:I've been interpreting it as trying to hold on to her last bits of morality. Shes fine with killing people who can fight, but non-combatants really get to her.

Some of that I can see. But its getting to the point where it feels like it really isnt the case anymore.

Spoiler:
Like clink, to use an example I can actually remember. He was a raider that could have obviously fought back. But him not doing it and giving her a longer decision time changed it into an incident. Would it have been the same situation if he had come at her guns blazing? I cant see her just outright killing him as she is now without going through another sob story moment about it, really. But shes fine with killing all of these enclave personal that have families and friends waiting for them back home, just because they are trying to fight back.

I dont know, the logic behind her problem with killing and then the subsequent lack thereof doesnt make sense to me either.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ketchup on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:05 pm

Overthepacific wrote:
DONT READ THIS IF YOU DONT WANT TO SEE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK:
Hey, I warned you:
Killing her entire stable should have been the great innocence breaker for her, not like her first accidental kill with scoodle, but the one that ultimately broke her. She did end up almost killing herself, but the events after that took a turn from emotionally understandable, to just plain annoying. Right now, killing anything shouldn't be a problem for her after killing all of her lifelong friends from her old home. From an emotional point of view, nothing else should even scratch the surface of phasing her like it should. Shes all angst and pity party, even at killing a raider now.

Yeah, I can get the whole "do better" thing. But honestly, that shouldn't be blackjack, that should be glory trying to fight with her about turning into a murderer. Not her carrying around an arsenal just to break down everytime she actually hits something. Her character took a turn for what seems like was supposed to be more of a side character, who tries to help from the outside. Overall, after a certain point the entirety of her character changes into something that most poeple just do not want to see in the position of a main character, and it shows throughout the latest chapters in a way.

I would be so much more excited to read about blackjack turning into a cold killing machine and her friends trying to bring her back from ultimately being the maiden of the stars, against Blackjacks pent up anger and hate. That's really the path I'd like to see explored, it would be much more interesting than her sexuality in any case.
Some people see problems where others do not. I like this thing that people do, it can create nice, interesting discussions. I wouldn't call it negative feedback, feedback isn't really "negative" in a sense.

My thinking is that the overarching plot of the story would be to finally get to the bottom of what EC-1101 is. The what-why-when-where-how of it. On the emotional/character development side with the peak being when 99 was gassed, I'd say that it was rather significant in development of how death effects her. But she didn't kill those ponies with her hooves or guns. She pressed a few buttons. She did it for the greater good and knew she was preventing something worse from occurring. And then my train of thought hit a butterfly and I just can't continue. Hmm.
I do in fact see the fighting against Blackjack becoming a cold-hearted killer, trying to find a justification for killing the ponies she does. They'd be trying to kill her, like the Harbingers, or they'd be a threat to the wasteland as a whole, like 99's population. I think that's what's keeping her together.
That probably made no sense at all...

Kipper, this post caused quite an avalanche. Why? The tone is what I believe to be at fault. It looks to me like you were insulting Somber, not giving cohesive feedback. Squeaky put his critique in a more personable manner. There's some brutal honesty on my opinions, for which I apologize in advance for.

Gah, this whole post is probably not going to make any sense.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Moodyman90 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:16 pm

Well, it's very nice of you to drop by Squeak and happy to have you in the forums, if only for one post or not.

Currently, as in it's very likely to change between my typing and later on, I think the main problem is that most of us here see criticism from 4chan as an attack on Somber. Now, Somber may be a stronger person than we give him credit for, but his self confidence and self worth are nigh nonexistent and writing Project Horizons is one of the few joys in his life he can feel good about.

Now this is an over simplification, generalization, and assumption of 4chan as a whole and I will apologize for that, but since nobody really tries to hide the fact Somber is fragile in those ways, we assume a majority of what comes from 4chan is less constructive criticism and more attacks to try to break Somber down to the point he gives up.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Downloaded Skill on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:18 pm

Overthepacific wrote:
Downloaded Skill wrote:I've been interpreting it as trying to hold on to her last bits of morality. Shes fine with killing people who can fight, but non-combatants really get to her.

Some of that I can see. But its getting to the point where it feels like it really isnt the case anymore.

Spoiler:
Like clink, to use an example I can actually remember. He was a raider that could have obviously fought back. But him not doing it and giving her a longer decision time changed it into an incident. Would it have been the same situation if he had come at her guns blazing? I cant see her just outright killing him as she is now without going through another sob story moment about it, really. But shes fine with killing all of these enclave personal that have families and friends waiting for them back home, just because they are trying to fight back.

I dont know, the logic behind her problem with killing and then the subsequent lack thereof doesnt make sense to me either.

Personally I find a lot of BJ's decisions questionable. When I wrote up my review of the chapter a while ago I really wanted BJ to pull the trigger on her own volition. I understand her motivations for not wanting to, but I think her inability to really fully comprehend shades of gray and unique situations stems from her lower intelligence and / or wisdom as a character. She doesn't quite grasp implications by herself which works for and against her.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Mr. Snrub on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:24 pm

they just think we're all a bunch of sycophants (well... cocksuckers, sycophants is a little too complex a word for their like)

I dont think sycophants is used in the correct way here, as you gain no benefits nor favors from a person in a high position from it.

Though i may be wrong.

*Edit* Oh, i see that in english the word lost its originall meaning in comon use. My mistake
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:01 pm

Overthepacific wrote:Alright swicked. I came here from /mlp/. I posted there a long time before I ever did here. I always checked this thread for updates and even read along sometimes. Who's to say I'm the only one like this? Maybe they just havent spoken up yet like I did. Not everbody is one side or the other with this.
4chan is not here; there are no individuals, the dominant opinion rules.
If they were mostly like you, you'd have a point, but they are mostly like them, and you are not.

So I can and will treat them as a singular entity until the voices sort themselves out and decide to stand behind their words.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:04 pm

@Overthepacific re Blackjack's attitude towards killing:
I'd say that there's an important difference between, to use them as examples, killing 99 and killing that bandit on the bridge. 99, as far as Blackjack was thinking, was a lost cause. Either they died or they went on to kill others; she's not a smart pony, so she didn't even think to look for a third option. Because of this, killing them was basically a battle kill; it's just that the opponent didn't yet fully realize that they were fighting. Killing the bandit on the bridge was an execution; it was a kill in cold blood carried out because of the bandit's past actions and concerns about what he might do. Now, was this justified, given his probability of reform? I'd say that it probably was, but I'm not certain that he wouldn't have turned his life around if he was spared again. There is, in Blackjack's mind, a very significant difference between killing someone to stop whatever they're pretty much certainly going to do from happening (battle kills fall into this category; "shoot or be shot") and a cool-headed execution of someone because of what they have done or might do. I'd argue that these two separate categories, while they may influence each other, each have their own progression.
Oh, it looks like others may have covered some of this. I'm mostly trying to stay out of this discussion.

Ketchup wrote:And then my train of thought hit a butterfly and I just can't continue.
…Okay, I'm curious: does your brain build really flimsy and/or weak trains, or does it contain some very, very large butterflies?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Downloaded Skill on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:09 pm

I think Ketchup should also elaborate on what gauge his mental trains use. This is very important stuff.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ketchup on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:16 pm

O. Hinds wrote:@Overthepacific re Blackjack's attitude towards killing:
I'd say that there's an important difference between, to use them as examples, killing 99 and killing that bandit on the bridge. 99, as far as Blackjack was thinking, was a lost cause. Either they died or they went on to kill others; she's not a smart pony, so she didn't even think to look for a third option. Because of this, killing them was basically a battle kill; it's just that the opponent didn't yet fully realize that they were fighting. Killing the bandit on the bridge was an execution; it was a kill in cold blood carried out because of the bandit's past actions and concerns about what he might do. Now, was this justified, given his probability of reform? I'd say that it probably was, but I'm not certain that he wouldn't have turned his life around if he was spared again. There is, in Blackjack's mind, a very significant difference between killing someone to stop whatever they're pretty much certainly going to do from happening (battle kills fall into this category; "shoot or be shot") and a cool-headed execution of someone because of what they have done or might do. I'd argue that these two separate categories, while they may influence each other, each have their own progression.
Pretty much this.
O. Hinds wrote:
Ketchup wrote:And then my train of thought hit a butterfly and I just can't continue.
…Okay, I'm curious: does your brain build really flimsy and/or weak trains, or does it contain some very, very large butterflies?
It was just a metaphor for losing where I was going with the thought, of course, but I'll play along.
Large butterflies. Very large.
Downloaded Skill wrote:I think Ketchup should also elaborate on what gauge his mental trains use. This is very important stuff.
Oh yeah... that.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overthepacific on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:21 pm

O. Hinds wrote:@Overthepacific re Blackjack's attitude towards killing:
I'd say that there's an important difference between, to use them as examples, killing 99 and killing that bandit on the bridge. 99, as far as Blackjack was thinking, was a lost cause. Either they died or they went on to kill others; she's not a smart pony, so she didn't even think to look for a third option. Because of this, killing them was basically a battle kill; it's just that the opponent didn't yet fully realize that they were fighting. Killing the bandit on the bridge was an execution; it was a kill in cold blood carried out because of the bandit's past actions and concerns about what he might do. Now, was this justified, given his probability of reform? I'd say that it probably was, but I'm not certain that he wouldn't have turned his life around if he was spared again. There is, in Blackjack's mind, a very significant difference between killing someone to stop whatever they're pretty much certainly going to do from happening (battle kills fall into this category; "shoot or be shot") and a cool-headed execution of someone because of what they have done or might do. I'd argue that these two separate categories, while they may influence each other, each have their own progression.

You have a good point about the separate categories with the killing. But reading this story I try to envision myself in her place. I think of all the family and friends that I lived with my whole life, everyone I ever cared about, and then see them turn into what they did. Having to kill all of them, foals and all, would tear me down to the point where I could understand the want for suicide. But taking this further, I can not see her coming out of this with a semblance of mercy towards a rapist raider after doing something like that. At a certain point the reasons for doing it fade out, and desensitization causes bitterness and hate about these kinds of things. But instead, she recovers rather quickly after what happened with spike and only brings it up again when shes having a pity party.

I know that characters dont have to follow a strict guidline of does and donts, but blackjack getting like this over killing after having to do that? It just doesnt seem to follow. One event doesnt seem to get to her enough, while the others get to her too much.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:27 pm

Ketchup wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
Ketchup wrote:And then my train of thought hit a butterfly and I just can't continue.
…Okay, I'm curious: does your brain build really flimsy and/or weak trains, or does it contain some very, very large butterflies?
It was just a metaphor for losing where I was going with the thought, of course, but I'll play along.
Large butterflies. Very large.
Downloaded Skill wrote:I think Ketchup should also elaborate on what gauge his mental trains use. This is very important stuff.
Oh yeah... that.
:)

Overthepacific wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:@Overthepacific re Blackjack's attitude towards killing:
I'd say that there's an important difference between, to use them as examples, killing 99 and killing that bandit on the bridge. 99, as far as Blackjack was thinking, was a lost cause. Either they died or they went on to kill others; she's not a smart pony, so she didn't even think to look for a third option. Because of this, killing them was basically a battle kill; it's just that the opponent didn't yet fully realize that they were fighting. Killing the bandit on the bridge was an execution; it was a kill in cold blood carried out because of the bandit's past actions and concerns about what he might do. Now, was this justified, given his probability of reform? I'd say that it probably was, but I'm not certain that he wouldn't have turned his life around if he was spared again. There is, in Blackjack's mind, a very significant difference between killing someone to stop whatever they're pretty much certainly going to do from happening (battle kills fall into this category; "shoot or be shot") and a cool-headed execution of someone because of what they have done or might do. I'd argue that these two separate categories, while they may influence each other, each have their own progression.

You have a good point about the separate categories with the killing. But reading this story I try to envision myself in her place. I think of all the family and friends that I lived with my whole life, everyone I ever cared about, and then see them turn into what they did. Having to kill all of them, foals and all, would tear me down to the point where I could understand the want for suicide. But taking this further, I can not see her coming out of this with a semblance of mercy towards a rapist raider after doing something like that. At a certain point the reasons for doing it fade out, and desensitization causes bitterness and hate about these kinds of things. But instead, she recovers rather quickly after what happened with spike and only brings it up again when shes having a pity party.

I know that characters dont have to follow a strict guidline of does and donts, but blackjack getting like this over killing after having to do that? It just doesnt seem to follow. One event doesnt seem to get to her enough, while the others get to her too much.
You're using yourself as a metric for this? It could be that Blackjack just has a different personality than you; different people may have easier or harder times dealing with certain things, after all.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overthepacific on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:36 pm

Ketchup wrote:

Uh... what I said to Hinds.

Downloaded Skill wrote:Personally I find a lot of BJ's decisions
questionable. When I wrote up my review of the chapter a while ago I
really wanted BJ to pull the trigger on her own volition. I understand
her motivations for not wanting to, but I think her inability to really
fully comprehend shades of gray and unique situations stems from her
lower intelligence and / or wisdom as a character. She doesn't quite
grasp implications by herself which works for and against her.

I
really think her intelligence doesnt really have a whole lot to do with
it. Her erratic behavior over the issue isnt really justified by this, a
less intelligent pony would not have reacted like that if you ask me.
And I do believe shes a lot smarter than she gives herself credit for.

swicked wrote:
4chan is not here; there are no individuals, the dominant opinion rules.
If they were mostly like you, you'd have a point, but they are mostly like them, and you are not.

So
I can and will treat them as a singular entity until the voices sort
themselves out and decide to stand behind their words.

From
an overview perspective, yeah, thatd be right. But there are those who
enjoy the story who still post there, albiet less frequently, since
others seem to want to argue against that. The same way it is here with
the other way around. They're all still individuals, you just cant talk to them in the same way you can here.

Honestly,
4chan doesnt care. /mlp/ doesnt care. And half of the FoE thread doesnt
care. It isnt even a strong point of discussion right now really.
Kippershy is the one you should be talking to more directly about this.
He posted his opinion, and some of squeaks. Arguing against his point
instead of its source would probably be a better course of action.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overthepacific on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:41 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
You're using yourself as a metric for this? It could be that Blackjack just has a different personality than you; different people may have easier or harder times dealing with certain things, after all.

She does have a different personality. Maybe I didnt really word that correctly. I'm more trying to use blackjack as a metric for me. Putting myself in her shoes, to try to understand it. But after trying to understand her after that, I just cant. It really doesnt follow for the situation.

Her having an easier time dealing with her stable and having a harder time killing a rapist she already gave a second chance? That really doesnt make sense to me at all.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:48 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
Ketchup wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
Ketchup wrote:And then my train of thought hit a butterfly and I just can't continue.
…Okay, I'm curious: does your brain build really flimsy and/or weak trains, or does it contain some very, very large butterflies?
It was just a metaphor for losing where I was going with the thought, of course, but I'll play along.
Large butterflies. Very large.
Downloaded Skill wrote:I think Ketchup should also elaborate on what gauge his mental trains use. This is very important stuff.
Oh yeah... that.
:)

/)

O. Hinds wrote:
Overthepacific wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:@Overthepacific re Blackjack's attitude towards killing:
I'd say that there's an important difference between, to use them as examples, killing 99 and killing that bandit on the bridge. 99, as far as Blackjack was thinking, was a lost cause. Either they died or they went on to kill others; she's not a smart pony, so she didn't even think to look for a third option. Because of this, killing them was basically a battle kill; it's just that the opponent didn't yet fully realize that they were fighting. Killing the bandit on the bridge was an execution; it was a kill in cold blood carried out because of the bandit's past actions and concerns about what he might do. Now, was this justified, given his probability of reform? I'd say that it probably was, but I'm not certain that he wouldn't have turned his life around if he was spared again. There is, in Blackjack's mind, a very significant difference between killing someone to stop whatever they're pretty much certainly going to do from happening (battle kills fall into this category; "shoot or be shot") and a cool-headed execution of someone because of what they have done or might do. I'd argue that these two separate categories, while they may influence each other, each have their own progression.

You have a good point about the separate categories with the killing. But reading this story I try to envision myself in her place. I think of all the family and friends that I lived with my whole life, everyone I ever cared about, and then see them turn into what they did. Having to kill all of them, foals and all, would tear me down to the point where I could understand the want for suicide. But taking this further, I can not see her coming out of this with a semblance of mercy towards a rapist raider after doing something like that. At a certain point the reasons for doing it fade out, and desensitization causes bitterness and hate about these kinds of things. But instead, she recovers rather quickly after what happened with spike and only brings it up again when shes having a pity party.

I know that characters dont have to follow a strict guidline of does and donts, but blackjack getting like this over killing after having to do that? It just doesnt seem to follow. One event doesnt seem to get to her enough, while the others get to her too much.
You're using yourself as a metric for this? It could be that Blackjack just has a different personality than you; different people may have easier or harder times dealing with certain things, after all.

I entirely agree with your original point, but would add that early on, Blackjack actively took joy in killing raiders. I don't quite get that feeling anymore. And as you say, there are multiple ways to react to things. I personally think that another entirely reasonable and consistent reaction would be to have an increased desire not to kill when possible—that she would, having looked into the abyss, wish to retreat rather than jump in. And one of the key points is that even so, Blackjack feels the need to actively fight against losing herself and becoming a killing machine. That thread hasn't been lost at all.

(Edit: This doesn't have much to do with the preceding paragraph, so much as earlier comments.) What's more, from my perspective, there has been plenty of development of Blackjack since "Black," if perhaps at a lower density than I would have preferred. We've had the rising frenzy from sleep deprivation and separation from her consciences, the events of "Lucidity," the Stygius arc and its fallout, her ongoing relationship with Deus, her interactions with Glory's mother, the rising influence of the Goddess and the Psalm dreams, and the role-reversal with Rampage as major character points that I can think of off the top of my head.

Now, one can say that the plot is taking too long to develop, or one can say that there's been too little character development, but holding both just doesn't work unless one thinks that the plot just needs to be pared down. That's a defensible stance, but one that doesn't—in my opinion—represent a workable option for future work outside of either a full-scale rewrite or a rushed, disappointing anticlimax à la Fallout: Equestria.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ketchup on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:53 pm

Overthepacific wrote:
Ketchup wrote:
Uh... what I said to Hinds.
Hinds had better words than I did.

Anyway, I'm thinking that Blackjack's social position in 99 contributes to how she reacts to the gassing. She didn't really have any friends, and her mother was already dead. Rivets wasn't really her friend, either. Way I remember it, ponies in Stable Security weren't very popular. She didn't have many people to care about on the personal level.
It's hard to imagine just how that would feel, though.

The fact that it usually only resurfaces when she's having her pity parties isn't unrealistic to me. I do the same thing with stuff I'd rather not remember when I'm at my lowest.

Hope that makes enough sense.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overthepacific on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:01 pm

Icy Shake wrote:

I entirely agree with your original point, but would add that early on, Blackjack actively took joy in killing raiders. I don't quite get that feeling anymore. And as you say, there are multiple ways to react to things. I personally think that another entirely reasonable and consistent reaction would be to have an increased desire not to kill when possible—that she would, having looked into the abyss, wish to retreat rather than jump in. And one of the key points is that even so, Blackjack feels the need to actively fight against losing herself and becoming a killing machine. That thread hasn't been lost at all.

I can see her going the route of not wanting to kill but I already went over this once.

Overthepacific wrote:Would it have been the same situation if he had come at her guns
blazing? I cant see her just outright killing him as she is now without
going through another sob story moment about it, really. But shes fine
with killing all of these enclave personal that have families and
friends waiting for them back home, just because they are trying to
fight back.

I dont know, the logic behind her problem with killing and then the subsequent lack thereof doesnt make sense to me either.

Just because the situation is different changes the act for her? I dont like that reasoning at all.



Icy Shake wrote:What's more, from my perspective, there has been plenty of development of Blackjack since "Black," if perhaps at a lower density than I would have preferred. We've had the rising frenzy from sleep deprivation and separation from her consciences, the events of "Lucidity," the Stygius arc and its fallout, her ongoing relationship with Deus, her interactions with Glory's mother, the rising influence of the Goddess and the Psalm dreams, and the role-reversal with Rampage as major character points that I can think of off the top of my head.

I dont feel like development in the wrong direction is all that important. A lot of those things felt like filler and putting off what could be a good opportunity for something important.

Icy Shake wrote:Now, one can say that the plot is taking too long to develop, or one can say that there's been too little character development, but holding both just doesn't work unless one thinks that the plot just needs to be pared down. That's a defensible stance, but one that doesn't—in my opinion—represent a workable option for future work outside of either a full-scale rewrite or a rushed, disappointing anticlimax à la Fallout: Equestria.

There a lot of ways the story can be fixed. How it actually will be is a mystery. Right now future chapters are what I'm looking forward to, but a future rewrite of parts after the story is finished wouldnt be all that bad either. But in the end I'm just here to voice my opinion and hope somebody considers it, not to directly force a change onto it.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:04 pm

Overthepacific wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:
You're using yourself as a metric for this? It could be that Blackjack just has a different personality than you; different people may have easier or harder times dealing with certain things, after all.

She does have a different personality. Maybe I didnt really word that correctly. I'm more trying to use blackjack as a metric for me. Putting myself in her shoes, to try to understand it. But after trying to understand her after that, I just cant. It really doesnt follow for the situation.

Her having an easier time dealing with her stable and having a harder time killing a rapist she already gave a second chance? That really doesnt make sense to me at all.

Try this: Blackjack really, really needs for ponies, as a rule, to be basically good, with hope of becoming better people if given the chance. She thinks (perhaps) that if this isn't true in general, it can't be true for her—and she hates who she is and was, more than she can bear much of the time—while also noting that it seems like just maybe she's less evil than she once was, so probably others can make that change as well. And that's where the difference in situation can come in: with 99, it's unfortunate, but they were in the process of becoming something less than ponies, with no hope of redemption before they would do irreparable harm; her rapist, on the other hand, is just a guy who could make the right decision if scared straight.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overthepacific on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:11 pm

Ketchup wrote:
Anyway, I'm thinking that Blackjack's social position in 99 contributes to how she reacts to the gassing. She didn't really have any friends, and her mother was already dead. Rivets wasn't really her friend, either. Way I remember it, ponies in Stable Security weren't very popular. She didn't have many people to care about on the personal level.
It's hard to imagine just how that would feel, though.

The fact that it usually only resurfaces when she's having her pity parties isn't unrealistic to me. I do the same thing with stuff I'd rather not remember when I'm at my lowest.

Spoiler:
But the fact that she spent her entire life there and all of those people that she created a connection with, and what really happened down there. I'm sure she wasn't that bad off, the first couple of chapters kinda made it seem that way, but that wasn't her entire life summed up into two chapters.

She had saved the stable, she fought against the raider population with the maintenance ponies and won. They built up hope of creating bonds with people she actually knew and trusted after fighting alongside them. But then she has to kill all of them before they turned, not even as raiders, but as infected friends.

I've never been through something like that, but I find it extremely unrealistic that after that, something that traumatic, is only ever brought up in pity parties again. It's just such a major thing to go through to just go along with without some serious flurries of emotion and build up of hate or fear.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:17 pm

Overthepacific wrote:
Ketchup wrote:
Anyway, I'm thinking that Blackjack's social position in 99 contributes to how she reacts to the gassing. She didn't really have any friends, and her mother was already dead. Rivets wasn't really her friend, either. Way I remember it, ponies in Stable Security weren't very popular. She didn't have many people to care about on the personal level.
It's hard to imagine just how that would feel, though.

The fact that it usually only resurfaces when she's having her pity parties isn't unrealistic to me. I do the same thing with stuff I'd rather not remember when I'm at my lowest.

Spoiler:
But the fact that she spent her entire life there and all of those people that she created a connection with, and what really happened down there. I'm sure she wasn't that bad off, the first couple of chapters kinda made it seem that way, but that wasn't her entire life summed up into two chapters.

She had saved the stable, she fought against the raider population with the maintenance ponies and won. They built up hope of creating bonds with people she actually knew and trusted after fighting alongside them. But then she has to kill all of them before they turned, not even as raiders, but as infected friends.

I've never been through something like that, but I find it extremely unrealistic that after that, something that traumatic, is only ever brought up in pity parties again. It's just such a major thing to go through to just go along with without some serious flurries of emotion and build up of hate or fear.

Or sadness, regret, and determination that you never do anything like that again if you can possibly avoid it. Or both. Or neither, for that matter, if you happen to (already) be a sociopath, or just out of your mind.

And it's worth noting that Stable 99 was presented as very consistent, with one day like any other, and all efforts spent on keeping the stable from failing. And who knows—maybe, just a little, Blackjack ended up thinking to herself "So this is how we failed."


Last edited by Icy Shake on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overthepacific on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:20 pm

Icy Shake wrote:
Try this: Blackjack really, really needs for ponies, as a rule, to be basically good, with hope of becoming better people if given the chance. She thinks (perhaps) that if this isn't true in general, it can't be true for her—and she hates who she is and was, more than she can bear much of the time—while also noting that it seems like just maybe she's less evil than she once was, so probably others can make that change as well. And that's where the difference in situation can come in: with 99, it's unfortunate, but they were in the process of becoming something less than ponies, with no hope of redemption before they would do irreparable harm; her rapist, on the other hand, is just a guy who could make the right decision if scared straight.

But them picking up a gun and shooting in her general direction changes that? And they already did that with clink once, obviously it didnt work, he wasn't going to make the right decision again, and I'm sure she knew that.

Her sporadic willingness to kill is what I have a problem with. If she just never wanted to kill anything again, I could almost understand that, but it would make for a much less interesting story. At the point where she is at now, her actions really dont seem to follow correctly anymore.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overthepacific on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:25 pm

Icy Shake wrote:
Or sadness, regret, and determination that you never do anything like that again if you can possibly avoid it. Or both. Or neither, for that matter, if you happen to (already) be a sociopath, or just out of your mind.

The point is that right now, it isnt a major point of regret for her, or she is more focused on her current affairs to be concerned about. Which is a problem right there. Some things you just dont forget about.

Icy Shake wrote:And it's worth noting that Stable 99 was presented as very consistent, with one day like any other, and all efforts spent on keeping the stable from failing. And who knows—maybe, just a little, Blackjack ended up thinking to herself "So this is how we failed."


I wasnt there for every day of her life or for every friend she did or didnt make, so theres really no telling beyond assumptions from her last days in there.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:37 pm

Well, she doesn't want her friends to die, either, and has a pretty long history of trying to let enemies live, once they stop being an immediate threat. I don't see the contradiction, myself. And I'm not sure why you would expect particularly good consistency or logicality from a manic depressive who is under constant stimuli from a number of different directions, and who has only really started thinking for herself in the last few weeks.

As for the presence of Stable 99 in her mind at any given moment, I think it's necessarily sort of folded into a more general gestalt of her experiences since the beginning of Horizons: I think it's reasonable for her to latch on more to Boing, the FMC kids, and Scoodle—or at least I can't fault her for doing so—and in any case, the pacing would grind to a halt every time she thought back on things she regretted if she went through a 1000-plus-word litany outlining each instance. After all, those come up pretty much every chapter, at least once.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Caoimhe on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:39 pm

I don't understand how some can question Blackjack's intelligence on some of her reactions. This has no bearing on her intelligence. She's an unreliable narrator for one, but more importantly - she's mentally ill. She has crippling PTSD and emotional problems and it's extremely self evident to everyone around her. It's half the reason why everyone fears her to some extent. Mentally ill people can be unpredictable and irrational and it is no reflection on Blackjack's intelligence.

Her low self esteem is also why she is dangerously protective of her friends because she surrounds herself with others with almost haphazard loyality to compensate for her lack of self worth. She also strives to find redemption in every enemy because that's what she wants for herself. She sees herself as evil and wants to find her own good but is powerless to help herself in her mind.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:49 pm

Overthepacific wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:
Or sadness, regret, and determination that you never do anything like that again if you can possibly avoid it. Or both. Or neither, for that matter, if you happen to (already) be a sociopath, or just out of your mind.

The point is that right now, it isnt a major point of regret for her, or she is more focused on her current affairs to be concerned about. Which is a problem right there. Some things you just dont forget about.

Icy Shake wrote:And it's worth noting that Stable 99 was presented as very consistent, with one day like any other, and all efforts spent on keeping the stable from failing. And who knows—maybe, just a little, Blackjack ended up thinking to herself "So this is how we failed."


I wasnt there for every day of her life or for every friend she did or didnt make, so theres really no telling beyond assumptions from her last days in there.

The first two paragraphs of Chapter One wrote:War. War never changes. It had consumed our home, a war fought by foreign aggressors until great and terrible magics had been unleashed to burn all the world to ash and dust. Only our constant devotion to the Princesses had carried us through that terrible war, just as our unwavering faith in the Overmare maintained our continued survival within the earth. Trust in the Overmare; obey the Overmare.
The grating buzz of my alarm yanked me away from sleep. I stuck my left foreleg out from under the blankets, away from my head, felt around for the end table next to the bed, found it, and proceeded to whack my PipBuck against the tabletop until the right button was hit and the noise stopped. I groaned and smacked my lips, tasting the sour gunk in my mouth before rolling onto my back and huffing softly, “Good morning, Blackjack. Welcome to another thrilling day in Stable 99.” I half crawled, half rolled, half fell out of bed and gave myself a vigorous shake. Life in Stable 99 was routine, with any deviation punishable by the security mares. I had half an hour to wash, half an hour to eat, and an hour to report to my duty station. The same as it had been every day since I’d gotten my cutie mark.
Chapter One, page three wrote:Any wonder I tried to stay out of this place? There was also the fact that most ponies refused to look at me. They’d drop their conversations, look aside, or leave. It didn’t matter that I tried to be nice; the fact was that all I had to do was drop a name and they’d be hauled in for interrogations. I’d witnessed enough to know I didn’t want to drop a name… besides, I’d already tried it once. Never worked for the ponies who deserved it.

Et cetera. We may have to make some assumptions, but the vision given us is one in which her colleagues hold her in contempt, her mother finds her a disappointment, the management is despotic, and most people just wish she wasn't there.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overthepacific on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:52 pm

Icy Shake wrote:Well, she doesn't want her friends to die, either, and has a pretty long history of trying to let enemies live, once they stop being an immediate threat. I don't see the contradiction, myself. And I'm not sure why you would expect particularly good consistency or logicality from a manic depressive who is under constant stimuli from a number of different directions, and who has only really started thinking for herself in the last few weeks.

If this were realistic emotion wise, half of the characters would be suffering from severe PTSD and most likely be dead one way or another. And she has really only been out there for like 2 months? I dont particularly want good consistency from her in that way as much as I want to stop seeing her act this way towards every other enemy during every chapter. I understood the first couple of times, but its getting old.


Icy Shake wrote:As for the presence of Stable 99 in her mind at any given moment, I think it's necessarily sort of folded into a more general gestalt of her experiences since the beginning of Horizons: I think it's reasonable for her to latch on more to Boing, the FMC kids, and Scoodle—or at least I can't fault her for doing so—and in any case, the pacing would grind to a halt every time she thought back on things she regretted if she went through a 1000-plus-word litany outlining each instance. After all, those come up pretty much every chapter, at least once.

Which is why I really wish she turned it into hateful anger against her enemies and became a more violent character. That way we have a stronger, more understandable reaction from all of it, and much less of the self hatred tangents that just turn it into an annoying part I'd rather skip. That outcome of blackjack is just my personal preference though, I can see it going other ways, but the current one I dont really understand.

I'm not the only one who is really getting tired of these regret and angst tangents, am I?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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