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What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

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What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:38 pm

assorted trailers:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/J_gEzOZKyE4?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Almost forgot these two amazing videos:

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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Zin6aKnJM5Q?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Sky Cloud on Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:36 pm

My mind was blown at the end. The game is a solid 10/10 in my book, but that ending. just, wow.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Orm on Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:47 pm

Loved it.
One of my favourite games of this year.
The story was really good.
And the ending was great, it did a great job giving hints to it throughout the game, and actually had stop and think about it during the credits. (I thought the post credit scene was a really nice touch that helped make things even better.)

My only issues with it are that I ended up using a lot of the same weapons and vigors. (Murder Crows wasn't exactly useful.)

I'm probably going to wait until I get the season pass before starting 1999 mode.

And speaking of the season pass.
I look forward to what kind of story DLC they are going to make.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Moodyman90 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:48 pm

What did I do? I survived, that's what I did.

But seriously, game is awesome. Looks beautiful, great story, plays great.

I know there was worry cause it's been delayed a few times, but I think it was worth it to bring us this product.

It got meta a hell though.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by swicked on Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:44 pm

This ending is shit.

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by swicked on Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:55 pm

In some realities he took the baptism and became comstock, okay.
In others he didn't and stayed Booker DeWitt, fine.
Getting rid of a single baptism refusal Booker... how does that prevent even one single past baptism acceptor comstock?
Besides, killing wasn't the answer... Complete removal was. Die, died, will die.
End Booker, end Anna, prevent the twins too.
This ending is shit and solves nothing whatsoever to even the tiniest of degrees.

Edit:
Okay, so I watched until the end of the credits.
They took him back to before he gave Anna up?
That wouldn't stop Comstock from stealing Anna. He still gave up his child in another reality and kidnapper comstock came from there, not any where he didn't give her up.
This is the height of absurdity.

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Moodyman90 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:20 pm

It may just be wishful thinking on my part, but this is what I think they wanted to convey.

The part where they drowned Booker to prevent him from being Comstock is the multiple versions of Elizabeth cutting off that branch from the time tree to use an analogy. They didn't stop one Booker from becoming him, they prevented ALL the Bookers who became Comstock.

But the Time Stream/Dimensional Fabric/ whatever they went with is still messed up slightly because Elizabeth exist outside of it now due to her powers, which is near Godlike now. So the Booker who woke up at the post credit scene is all the Bookers who never got baptized, but since there isn't a Comstock to even offer to buy Anna to wipe away the debt, he'll never sell her and thus gets to be a father.

Feel free to call bullshit, I wouldn't blame you.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by swicked on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:23 pm

They didn't, though.
In the past, booker was presented with a choice... become baptized, or not.

Those that did become baptised became comstock. Those that did not became booker.

The booker they drowned was a booker that had already made the choice that prevented him from ever becoming comstock. Killing that booker would not prevent the creation of a single comstock, ever. The choice NOT to become comstock was already in booker's past.

That is why drowning him doesn't solve anything.

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by swicked on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:34 pm

Orm wrote:(Murder Crows wasn't exactly useful.)
You never used it with the upgrade that causes those that die under its effect to become the trap version of the ability, let alone the one that makes those under its effect take extra damage.

When I faced the silence boys, for example, I didn't even realize you could sneak past them. And I didn't need to.

When the guys that he summons came up I'd hit all of them with a single blast of murder of crows, then shoot or clobber at least one dead. It would become a crow trap and would go off as soon as the effect of the first cast ended. At which point I'd just need to kill one more.

I'd clear the room of those guys no problem. Other than my first run-in with them I never came close to dying.

They were also great at distracting handymen while I shot the suckers in the chest. Plus it doesn't cost much.

...anyway, does anyone have any explanation why it took Booker years to get across a bridge? Did elder Elizabeth from some reality where Booker died trying to get across that bridge and save her really pull him through time just to have him fight through her entire insane asylum, finally find her, then time jump AGAIN to where she was destroying New York, all to say "Hey, here's a cryptic message to give to my past self, and don't let me get captured, kay?"?
This is absurd stuff.

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Moodyman90 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:46 pm

Once again I point to the fact there was multiple Elizabeths there.

Also: Elizabeth A:"He's Zachary Comstock."
Elizabeth B:"He's Booker DeWitt."
Booker:"No... I'm both."


The Booker we had been controlling my have made that choice to not be baptized, but they took him, all versions of him, to the dimension where he did make the choice to become Comstock. The baptism seems to be the great diversion point, they simply took the Booker who didn't get baptized and combined him with the one who was about to go through with it.


As for the bridge thing, yeah Booker never made it across until the older version of Elizabeth used her powers to bring him to the future. Yes, Booker originally died before he could save Elizabeth, so the older version plucked him to before he died so he could reach her to get the card for her younger version. All the yelling you hear from the younger Elizabeth is just through Tears.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Cptadder on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:52 pm

swicked wrote:

...anyway, does anyone have any explanation why it took Booker years to get across a bridge? Did elder Elizabeth from some reality where Booker died trying to get across that bridge and save her really pull him through time just to have him fight through her entire insane asylum, finally find her, then time jump AGAIN to where she was destroying New York, all to say "Hey, here's a cryptic message to give to my past self, and don't let me get captured, kay?"?
This is absurd stuff.
Booker tries and fails over and over again to get to Elizabeth and Songbird always stops him or kills him. At this point Elizabeth is strong enough to rez Booker like the Lucete's can rez him at will and so Booker gets rezed... Songbird steps on him and she rez him... and step and rez and step and rez and damn Booker who knew the human body had that much blood in it? And the cryptic message was cryptic to Booker not Elizabeth. In fact you can read it if you want, the key is back in Elizabeth's room on Monument Island.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by swicked on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:55 pm

...but all versions of him converged on the light house, not on his baptism. They should have killed him there.
Heck, we even found a dead body the first time we went there, that could have been him.

Booker is comstock in that they were the same person in different realities. They never converged at all, though, after that choice. They also already confirmed he never went through with it by having him make the same choice twice.

The THIRD baptism, where they kill him, is OUTSIDE of that choice, otherwise the priest and the others would be there. It's either a completely different reality where they weren't doing baptisms that day, or simply a different time.

Besides, it's all irrelevant if he ever exists in the first place, because there will always be a reality where they didn't kill him for some reason, and the story goes that THAT reality is what stole from one of the others, creating this chain.

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Moodyman90 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:50 am

I'm just gonna concede my point.

Honestly the game is too god damn meta for it's own good. Keep hearing the Infinite stands for the fact there's an infinite amount of possibilities.
You said nothing was changed, I say they changed everything.

In the end, I believe the post credit scene was in the very least a version of Booker who was never molested by Comstock, was able to raise Anna and give her a normal life, and maybe deep down inside still retained some subconscious memory of Elizabeth and did take Anna to Paris.

But that's me. You obviously got something completely different from it.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by swicked on Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:59 am

Moodyman90 wrote:I'm just gonna concede my point.

Honestly the game is too god damn meta for it's own good. Keep hearing the Infinite stands for the fact there's an infinite amount of possibilities.
You said nothing was changed, I say they changed everything.

In the end, I believe the post credit scene was in the very least a version of Booker who was never molested by Comstock, was able to raise Anna and give her a normal life, and maybe deep down inside still retained some subconscious memory of Elizabeth and did take Anna to Paris.

But that's me. You obviously got something completely different from it.
There are an infinite amount of Bookers and an infinite amount of Comstocks. The lighthouse, Booker's crossing over, or at least ascension into Columbia, is a fixed point.
There is ALWAYS a lighthouse. If Booker, after the credits, has not been molested by Comstock, then he must eventually be. There is always a lighthouse.

As long as Booker has Anna, Comstock with pursue him. He has his trans-dimensional go-to guy to help find her. There's no real reason they couldn't, no matter where Booker might go. Every Booker reality has a Comstock trying to enter it, which is what necessitates the lighthouse.

We know this because Booker ALWAYS gives him the girl. Always. Elizabeth saw that Booker always gives him the girl, no matter what. Sometimes it takes a while, but it is an eventuality. This Booker, after the credits, must eventually give up Anna.

The ending? It solves nothing, by its own logic and rules.

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Orm on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:15 am

Cptadder wrote:
Booker tries and fails over and over again to get to Elizabeth and Songbird always stops him or kills him. At this point Elizabeth is strong enough to rez Booker like the Lucete's can rez him at will and so Booker gets rezed... Songbird steps on him and she rez him... and step and rez and step and rez and damn Booker who knew the human body had that much blood in it? And the cryptic message was cryptic to Booker not Elizabeth. In fact you can read it if you want, the key is back in Elizabeth's room on Monument Island.
Actually Booker was pulled through a tear and brought to a Columbia where he never saved Elizabeth, and she became the Elizabeth Comstock wanted. (This could also be the tear Comstock use Elizabeth for to see make his prophesies.

From what I've seen in the game, there are the obvious multiple worlds.
One where Booker leads the Vox and dies. One where Booker dies and Comstock uses Elizabeth to destroy New York( and I assume the world). And one where Booker saves Elizabeth.


But as for the ending, it made sense to me.
Basically when Booker got the choice to get Baptised is the point in time where all of this can be changed.
When Booker is underwater is when Booker DeWitt dies, and Zachary Comstock is born.
Elizabeth essentially brought Booker back in time to this point to end the cycle.
Without either one of them leaving that point neither one lives and the cycle is broken. (I assume the other Booker's go through with the same thing, therefore never giving Comstock the chance of being born.)

As for post credits scene.
I take it as a different world where Booker never went to the baptism, therefore eliminating that choice from ever happening, and keeping Comstock from taking Anna.

That's just my opinion though, feel free to ignore it.


Last edited by Orm on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:21 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Moodyman90 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:17 am

I'd like to see the others take on the ending. Get somebody else's look on it.

Like I said, I'm conceding my point for the moment, cause right now it's just us going "They're just repeating the loop." "No, the loop was broken."

It's also way too late at night for me to be pondering the logic and mechanics of dimensional altering, time warping powers.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by swicked on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:21 am

Orm wrote:
Cptadder wrote:
Booker tries and fails over and over again to get to Elizabeth and Songbird always stops him or kills him. At this point Elizabeth is strong enough to rez Booker like the Lucete's can rez him at will and so Booker gets rezed... Songbird steps on him and she rez him... and step and rez and step and rez and damn Booker who knew the human body had that much blood in it? And the cryptic message was cryptic to Booker not Elizabeth. In fact you can read it if you want, the key is back in Elizabeth's room on Monument Island.
Actually Booker was pulled through a tear and brought to a Columbia where he never saved Elizabeth, and she became the Elizabeth Comstock wanted. (This could also be the tear Comstock use Elizabeth for to see make his prophesies.

From what I've seen in the game, there are the obvious multiple worlds.
One where Booker leads the Vox and dies. One where Comstock uses Elizabeth to destroy New York( and I assume the world). And one where Booker saves Elizabeth.


But as for the ending, it made sense to me.
Basically when Booker got the choice to get Baptised is the point in time where all of this can be changed.
When Booker is underwater is when Booker DeWitt dies, and Zachary Comstock is born.
Elizabeth essentially brought Booker back in time to this point to end the cycle.
Without either one of them leaving that point neither one lives and the cycle is broken. (I assume the other Booker's go through with the same thing, therefore never giving Comstock the chance of being born.)

As for post credits scene.
I take it as a different world where Booker never went to the baptism, therefore eliminating that choice from ever happening, and keeping Comstock from taking Anna.

That's just my opinion though, feel free to ignore it.

...two things. One, elder Elizabeth directly states, when Booker finds her, that "The songbird always stops you." and "It took all the power I had left to bring you here." Adder is right, she brought him there because the songbird always stopped him on that bridge.
Two, there's no such thing as preventing the baptism. There isn't a single timestream, here. Entirely different realities are converging. Booker doesn't need to go to the baptism because Comstock was born in an entirely different reality where he did. Nothing our Booker does, or will do, in his current reality can affect the one Comstock is coming from.

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by swicked on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:29 am

I just wish Elizabeth could have gone with Booker to Paris. The past is the past, they can't change it, not for themselves.
But Elizabeth could have made Booker like her and they could have had eternity anywhere they wanted to go, much like the twins, enjoying that quantum-interlaced existence as they explored possibility.

I would have liked that ending. I don't like this one.

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Orm on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:35 am

Okay, I am bad at writing. So am going to hope this makes sense.

Each Booker you saw at the end came from a different line.
In each one them came from their own respective lines with their own respective Comstock's.
What the Elizabeth's did was essentially take every Booker and brought them back to the point where the choice to become Booker or Comstock came up.
By killing him, they kept each line from progressing.

If each Booker you saw went back to kill each Comstock then every Booker and Comstock would have died, and kept Comstock from ever coming to.

I know you're just going to say that that doesn't matter and that somewhere there is a Comstock hunting them down.
But even Elizabeth basically says that he won't stop unless they kill him there.
And that's exactly what they did.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by swicked on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:58 am

...infinity, minus infinity, does not equal zero.

And this isn't a couplet of two realities, paired off in infinite sets across the cosmos. After all, Booker and Elizabeth crossed several dimensional barriers during their adventure.
Every dimension can match any other dimension. These things are not being spawned only by choices, but differences. Much more than just two sides of a coin, barring when you focus JUST on the coin. A reality in which the arms maker didn't die existed, but there were so many different ways it could have come about.

In any case, how could you only take every last Booker back to that choice? You'd only kill every last Booker. You'd need to take the Comstocks as well, as their realities need to be drawn into the fold for theirs to be respectively destroyed.
The set of all Bookers being destroyed would never equal the set of both all Bookers and all Comstocks. It would still be infinity, to be sure, but it would be a smaller infinity than the entire set.
Because the choice isn't where two realities emerged. The choice is just where they diverged. A Booker that would become a Comstock and a Booker than would stay a Booker still exist as two separate realities since their respective beginnings.

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Orm on Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:20 am

You know what, I'm done.

It's clear no matter what anyone says it's not going to change what you think of then ending.

Let's just agree to disagree when it comes to the ending.

We can at least agree that it was a really good game.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by swicked on Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:46 am

The problem, I think, is that you see this multiverse as a tree, whereas I see it simply as parallel lines. They presented it as parallel lines, to be sure.
There is no common stock reality that every one is based off of, although there are set constants that must take place regardless of any other variables.

But whatever, sure, most of the game was pretty good. When they started getting stupid toward the last 15-20%, changing the setting and theme and trying to come off eccentric and deep, they completely dropped the ball.
The pseudoscience was weak in this one :P

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Cptadder on Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:03 am

I think Elizabeth was thinking to small scale, no need to kill Booker to kill Comstock to save Booker. Why not simply... kill the Preacher? Or KILL englishmen John Smyth the founder of the Baptist sect? It's clear Booker + religion =bad so you don't have to drown him at the river if you have him skip the river all together. Hell introduce him to a nice Amish preacher, a Buddhist or even the Church of Scientology.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Moodyman90 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:20 pm

Anyways, enough about the ending. Let's talk Vigors, weapons, and tactics.

As I said before, other than with Possession I didn't upgrade the Vigors much and instead went more for weapons. Looking back I could have done with not upgrading the pistol since I rarely used it outside of the beginning of the game.

I altered between the Handcannon, RPG, and the two different machineguns if I could help it, but in fire fights I usually just grabbed what I could cause I never seemed to have enough ammo. If I had Possession in an active slot at the time I would spam that, especially if there was a turret, but other than that I just threw out a token shot of Devil's Kiss, Shock Jockey, or Murder of Crows.
As far as help from Tears, I was more for back up, like motorized patriots and more turrets, then cover, but if nothing was available I'd go for weapons or Skyhook points.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:22 am

Moodyman90 wrote:Anyways, enough about the ending. Let's talk Vigors, weapons, and tactics.

As I said before, other than with Possession I didn't upgrade the Vigors much and instead went more for weapons. Looking back I could have done with not upgrading the pistol since I rarely used it outside of the beginning of the game.

I went the opposite path of you. I picked two weapons the handgun (Which I loved.) and the shotgun. Those were the only weapons I upgraded.

I abandoned possession. I felt like the effect wore off too quickly to provide much use other then that I alternated between my vigors. (Bucking bronco, Murder of Crows, Shock Jockey, and return to sender.) I never used Devil's Kiss, Charge, or undertow.

As for my gear I tended to stick to anything that would increase my survivability. Hill Runner's hat was a good friend for a while there.

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Moodyman90 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:36 am

I probably should have messed around with the gears more.

Think I found pants that cause anything I landed next to after riding the skyline catch on fire, and boots that cause knockback as well and never changed them, but the hats and shirts where swapped out between rapid reload/ increased clip size and find more salt/ammo and what seems like extra ammo just appearing after firing a few shots.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Meleagridis on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:37 am

Moodyman90 wrote:Anyways, enough about the ending. Let's talk Vigors, weapons, and tactics.

As I said before, other than with Possession I didn't upgrade the Vigors much and instead went more for weapons. Looking back I could have done with not upgrading the pistol since I rarely used it outside of the beginning of the game.

Heh. Pistol was the only weapon I was willing to upgrade, other than that all my money went to vigors. I can safely say that made the final fight a lot tougher... It was also kind of dumb since I hopped on every skyline I saw and fought from there, but you can't use vigors on a skyline.

Infinite did a fantastic job in forcing the player to move. I was skeptical at first about not being able to cart around health kits and mana pools, but Anna gives you enough for it not to feel limiting but not enough to let you stay in one spot. In the first two Bioshocks, you stock up on supplies and tank the tough fights from a small corner, setting up IVs of health and eve. Afterwards you go around the room and discover all the cool stuff you COULD have used to make that fight awesome. When you don't have five doses of health to fall back on, you need to move as soon as you've hoovered the health and salts around where you're standing. You've got to run around, and then you'll find the RPGs, motorized patriots, oil and water.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Guest on Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:32 am

I've made a mistake in not utilizing undertow. In my second run I discovered it was capable of pulling both Handymen and motorized patriots, and if that wasn't enough it stuns both those enemies after use (As far as I know the only other vigor capable of stunning Handymen is murder of crows.)

Truth be told you don't want a handyman that close to you, however I wouldn't be surprised if you could use undertow to push the bastards off of Columbia assuring a near instant kill.

Unlike Handymen undertow I found is extremely effective against motorized patriots. You can nearly kill them before the initial stun even wears off.

All in all I found the most useful way to use it was against foes that wielded RPGs and volley guns. Being able to pull them out of cover to a place where you can do damage I think is going to be essential in 1999 mode.

Edit: I forgot to mention I almost never used vigor traps, I felt they were largely useless as I couldn't get enemies to walk into them. However Undertow makes all these traps more viable.

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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Kippershy on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:57 am

I never really dabbled in vigors much, only occasionally when I needed the support.
carbine was my weapon of choice... One shot kills to most enemies with that beast of a gun.
seriously, carbine mixed with shotty or occasional rpg or crankgun.... Godly combo.
repeater was uselss though. Burst gun even more so.
hand cannon was okay at times.

only tears I ever used were fire support ones, with only using cover for one fight and only medkits for the final
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

Post by Cptadder on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:23 am

I'm on my 1999 no dollar store play through as we speak. Getting a lot more use out of vigors this time around, screw your heath it's all shield upgrades and salt upgrades. I can use possession four times now and that's without the cost saving upgrade yet.

Really kind of annoyed how the upgrades are so widely spaced, carrying around 1500 because I don't use devils kiss or anything else but murder and possession at the moment.
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Re: What did you do during the siege of Columbia?

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