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[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Snipehamster on Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:00 pm

swicked wrote:I just want to clarify, though, that if I seemed to imply I thought your intention was to make things harder for anyone, I certainly didn't mean to.
Oh no, you didn't imply that at all.

As for what happens going forwards, I'll sleep on it.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Kippershy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:17 pm

Snipehamster wrote:
swicked wrote:
Snipehamster wrote:Given a recent string of IRC conversations, it's become apparent that my opinions on PH and approach to editing have become a manifest threat to Somber's emotional and physical well-being.

For this reason I cannot in good conscience continue to provide honest feedback on PH.

My sincere apologies, and thanks, to all of you.
This confuses me.
Sure, you've stated far more negatives than positives in your posted feedback for Project Horizons, but I figured you'd said most of this stuff to Somber before.

...I mean, I honestly have no clue how the editing process works between you four. Hinds seems to relay that most of what he does is correct spelling and grammar issues, as well as address any continuity or unclear sections with Somber's counsel, but I wasn't under the impression three editors were needed for that, particularly given how long your editing sessions take. Were the things you stated on here really things Somber'd never previously heard from you? Or is it just because you were stating them publicly?

...and does this mean you are no longer comfortable posting on here at all?
Some, though not all, of the criticisms posted here were addressed to Somber in the past, but I never received a response to the posts I made here. This is the result of a string of IRC conversations (in which I contacted Somber to voice concerns and suggestions), and in short I simply don't feel comfortable working with him any more. This is for both my sake and his.

I don't mind posting here (assuming I'm still welcome), but I won't be giving much, if any, feedback on new chapter releases for PH.

Dude, somehow missed all this until I was pointed to it by /mlp/ of all places.
Of course you're still welcome here, you always will be. Honest criticism that doesn't simply try to attack Somber but rather give actual thought out and well made arguments either for or against something is always promoted, even if some would disagree with you.

We can either pretend that Somber is perfect and always agree that everything he ever does is perfect and pretend there's never anything that we don't find to be an issue or we can point out flaws and issues as we see them and try to guide Somber with those constructive, well thought out points that you especially have been capable of providing.

As a writer, he needs those. Even if it does upset him to know there's people who disagree with something he firmly believes in, if he truly wants to do the best that he can then he's going to need people like you who can articulate their opinions in constructive ways.



I for one would never tell you that you aren't allowed to stick around just because you don't see sunshine and rainbows with everything. If anyone does tell you that you're not allowed to stick around and keep on commenting, then they can go fuck themselves with a yard pole because it's not helpful to deny someone creative, constructive criticism.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:23 pm

http://boards.4chan.org/mlp/res/8874346#p8900191

Someone needs to surreptitiously block Somber's ability to access 4chan.
Maybe have it redirect to icanhascheezburger or something.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Kippershy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:26 pm

Protip: That's not Somber

Of course I can't tell you with 100% certainty that it isn't, but I'm 95% sure of it.
Somber impersonators happen all the time. Hell, I'VE posted as Somber once or twice when and the next thing I knew we were all doing it.
Funny as fuck to see four different Sombers.

Anyway, yeah. I can put money down on it not being him.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:30 pm

Kay, if you say so.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by tylertoon2 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:35 pm

swicked wrote:http://boards.4chan.org/mlp/res/8874346#p8900191

Someone needs to surreptitiously block Somber's ability to access 4chan.
Maybe have it redirect to icanhascheezburger or something.


Yeah, it is doing him no good to be on there.

Also I hate his term clocking out. It makes it sound so casual, when in fact his describing the heinous act of ending a talented life full of drive and potential, it's not clocking out. It's killing yourself, destroying your own consciousness and utterly obliterating your ability to interact or perceive. Nothing is worse than that, beyond taking the life of another at least in my book. It's like ordering a genocide and labeling it a "Miscommunication".

Sorry to be harsh. Hang in there Somber. You've been through worse, I know you have.

Oh and by the way, who donated the most? I want to know so I can get them something later.

Edit: I think my post still applies either way so I'll leave it be.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Kippershy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:38 pm

Yeah, the more I look at it the more certain I am it isn't him.
Last time he posted there was a unique situation and the second I began reading his post I got this horrible gut feeling and simply knew it was him.

This time "his" writing isn't his. There's something missing from it.
Whoever wrote it has seen him get like this before, for certain. However, it's not Somber.

Being able to tell it isn't him is partially because being around there and having seen the imitations he's had against him, the other part is like I say, there's something different about that post to his usual way of things.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by tylertoon2 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:40 pm

Kippershy wrote:Yeah, the more I look at it the more certain I am it isn't him.
Last time he posted there was a unique situation and the second I began reading his post I got this horrible gut feeling and simply knew it was him.

This time "his" writing isn't his. There's something missing from it.
Whoever wrote it has seen him get like this before, for certain. However, it's not Somber.

Being able to tell it isn't him is partially because being around there and having seen the imitations he's had against him, the other part is like I say, there's something different about that post to his usual way of things.



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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Stringtheory on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:01 pm

I interrupt this serious discussion for this dose of cute:

(I swear, we need a non-proliferation treaty on WMHAs (Weapons of Mass Heart Attack), because these things if deployed correctly could wipe out vast regions of the internet from a single viewing)
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Derpmind on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:03 pm

Deleted.


Last edited by Derpmind on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:55 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Kippershy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:05 pm

Oh lookie, Somber made a post. This time I know it's the actual Somber, writing style fits and although my gut isn't freaking out like before it just... I know, you know?

Anyway, I was right.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:06 pm

Kippershy wrote:Oh lookie, Somber made a post. This time I know it's the actual Somber, writing style fits and although my gut isn't freaking out like before it just... I know, you know?

Anyway, I was right.
You always gotta announce when you're right, huh?
Must not happen too often :P

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Kippershy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:08 pm

Oh, it happens often enough. I just like to take pride in it is all. hah.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Somber on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:09 pm

Please leave Snipehamster alone. He was right in his criticisms and I wish I could have accommodated him... but I couldn't.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Kippershy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:12 pm

I don't think anyone has actually said anything against him, though I could be wrong.
You should ignore me right now though, I'm on a distinct lack of sleep and overworking my brain as I've been writing.

...I need more coffee.

Anyway, try not to get yourself worked up (if you are).
It really ain't worth the worry.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Caoimhe on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:13 pm

Jesus fuck, some of those comments there on 4chan.

Also Snipe, it's kind of a dick move to repost chatlogs that only go out to a few people and disappear into the void especially without the permission of the person on the other end you're talking about.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overlong Analysis Cobalt on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:27 pm

I think Snipe's hurting, too, guys. Cao, normally I'd agree with you on chatlogs and my initial thoughts ran similarly, but I think he's trying to deal with the situation he is currently in and is trying to defend his feelings. Not saying it was the best move, but I think it's understandable.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:27 pm

Somber wrote:Please leave Snipehamster alone. He was right in his criticisms and I wish I could have accommodated him... but I couldn't.
There are things that would make the story better in retrospect. This is true.
But, as he said in the chatlog, he was not interested in having the entire fic rewritten. It would clearly not be possible to remove all mention of Lacunae and the Goddess right now. What he said was, following the fic's finishing, they could be cut out as part of some "Past Sins-esque edits". I don't recall anything Snipe said addressing where the fic should go now, just in where it's been.
Unless he said something entirely different to you when it was just the two of you and stated that editing the fic to remove such massive elements should take precedence over finishing the fic (after all, just changing the first chapter called for two weeks of edits, as you said), I personally think he could be accommodated in time if you really agreed with the direction he thought the fic should eventually take.

Edit:
TL;DR: Snipe wanted to perform massive edits AFTER the fic was done, not to stop it all right now. If you agree with what he wants, just finish the fic under the current continuity and see about edits later.


Last edited by swicked on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:52 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:38 pm

Fake 4chan Somber wrote:What I didn't expect was for someone from the PHCC to take note and think *I* was the real deal.
Kippershy wrote:Protip: That's not Somber
Kippershy wrote:Hell, I'VE posted as Somber once or twice
Kippershy wrote:Anyway, yeah. I can put money down on it not being him.
Kippershy wrote:This time I know it's the actual Somber.
Kippershy wrote:Anyway, I was right.

Hmmm...

Edit:
The thread doesn't exist anymore, but fake Somber was also extremely avid about defending real Somber and, despite Kipper being aware of the thread and the bad stuff being said in it, wasn't posting on there... at least, not under his own name.
I smell a rat :P


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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overlong Analysis Cobalt on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:53 pm

Won't the real Slim Somber, please stand up? I am Sombericus! I'm Sombatman. Who is Keysomber Soze? Chrysalis

Kay, that's all I got. Seriously, though, impersonating people often ends poorly.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Admiral Stoic Rum on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:08 am

sigh, it sucks this anonymous reality we live in. It's not always the person we expect it to be when we expect it. All I can say is there is just waaaay too much drama for someone's slight of hand. As offensive as it is, I suggest trying it on 4chan just to have the experience.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:28 am

swicked wrote:
Somber wrote:Please leave Snipehamster alone. He was right in his criticisms and I wish I could have accommodated him... but I couldn't.
There are things that would make the story better in retrospect. This is true.
But, as he said in the chatlog, he was not interested in having the entire fic rewritten. It would clearly not be possible to remove all mention of Lacunae and the Goddess right now. Maybe, following the fic's finishing, they could be cut out as part of some "Past Sins-esque edits". I don't recall anything Snipe said addressing where the fic should go now, just in where it's been.
Unless he said something entirely different to you when it was just the two of you and stated that editing the fic to remove such massive elements should take precedence over finishing the fic (after all, just changing the first chapter called for two weeks of edits, as you said), I personally think he could be accommodated in time if you really agreed with the direction he thought the fic should take.

Warning: I may well have no idea what I'm talking about in the following, and do not mean to offend anyone involved. I've tried to write it that way, but apologize if I have not succeeded, and hope I haven't been too presumptuous.

My understanding of the differences of opinion, such as they are, is that Somber and Snipehamster might be looking at the story from different perspectives on what the basic product (not just the details, but the overall structure) should be like.

The more I think of it, the more I agree with Caiomhe that PH feels more like an ongoing serial than a traditional novel; I don't now if that's what Somber has been shooting for, but if it is then paring it down to the essentials (e.g. removing Lacunae and the Goddess as core players) to keep things flowing briskly isn't necessarily adding value. I like this style: I enjoy the size of the world; the feeling of immersion in the world I get when reading; and that each chapter, and each episode in each chapter, has something to add, even if it's not moving the core story, or focusing entirely on the core characters.

My impression is that Snipehamster, were he writing the story, would take less time to wander around the world, and that his creation would be tighter, with greater focus on core elements, and a faster pace. And that would be fine, too, but probably a different product—in a different medium, so to speak—for a different audience than Somber's.

Here's where it might get bad; please understand I'm doing my best from a point of ignorance of both process and motive:

So distress my be caused by a process along the lines of

[Somber's writing] -> [Snipehamster's ideal structure] -> [Snipehamster's opinion based on adherence to his ideal structure] -> [Snipehamster gives his opinion to Somber]

and (based on the limited insight from the chat logs) Snipehamster sees the alternative as

[Somber's writing] -> [Snipehamster's ideal structure] -> [Snipehamster's opinion based on adherence to his ideal structure] -> [filter opinion to keep Somber happy] -> [Snipehamster gives his opinion to Somber]

where presumably what Somber needs is

[Somber's writing] -> [Snipehamster's understanding of Somber's goals] -> [Snipehamster's opinion based on how well Somber's writing achieved Somber's goals] -> [Snipehamster gives his opinion to Somber]

TL;DR version: My perception is that Somber is writing Fallout: Equestria—Project Horizons: The TV Show (The Novel), while if Snipehamster were writing it, he would be writing Fallout: Equestria—Project Horizons: The Movie (The Novel). And both, I think, would be great (I'd read the latter, I'm sure, after the conclusion of the former—but would want the former to still exist, as I'd think of the two as complements, not substitutes), but evaluating one based on the conventions of the other is not ideal.

None of this, of course, is to say that Snipehamster's opinions have no application to Somber's work, as Somber has made it clear that he values his input; nor do I think that Project Horizons, as the serial-style piece I perceive it to be, is without flaws: in some respects, I agree with (at least portions of some of) Snipehamster's criticisms, even in that context.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Derpmind on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:55 am

Derpmind wrote:Deleted.

I got rid of everything in my post above.

I don't know how to say sorry, other than writing the word out: Sorry. Doesn't actually make anything better.

I don't think I should rant about anything, at all, ever again. There's a part of my lizard brain that thinks ranting is somehow cathartic, but in reality it's just a spiral of trainwrecks. Nothing I said in that post should have been said at all.


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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:58 am

I'm somewhat curious why you felt the need to delete whatever it is that you wrote that I can't remember off the top of my head...

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by SilentCarto on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:15 am

Sindri wrote:Anyway, Match loads are significantly more accurate, and less likely to jam in the gun, but they don't actually do more damage or penetrate further. They're just finely crafted bullets instead of mass-produced crap. A high level sniper like Psalm would likely use them as her standard rounds, but a Dragonslayer bullet would almost certainly be something special even if it was just what we'd call standard armor piercing.
I didn't say DKs are match loads, I said they are probably similarly difficult to make and are therefore not mass-produced.

Icy Shake wrote:I saw it earlier, and it got me thinking: did Fallout: Equestria have hookers? It seems like they'd fit the setting, but I can't remember any.
I don't recall any, though Pip didn't spend much time in the class of settlements where you might find such things. She probably could have found some in the slaver bar in Filly if she was looking, but she never went in there.

Kippershy wrote:We can either pretend that Somber is perfect and always agree that everything he ever does is perfect and pretend there's never anything that we don't find to be an issue or we can point out flaws and issues as we see them and try to guide Somber with those constructive, well thought out points that you especially have been capable of providing.

As a writer, he needs those. Even if it does upset him to know there's people who disagree with something he firmly believes in, if he truly wants to do the best that he can then he's going to need people like you who can articulate their opinions in constructive ways.
While what you say is true, it's not constructive to continue to harp on those points after Somber has listened to the criticism and continued in spite of it. It's doubly not-constructive to do so publically. More to the point...

swicked wrote:TL;DR: Snipe wanted to perform massive edits AFTER the fic was done, not to stop it all right now. If you agree with what he wants, just finish the fic under the current continuity and see about edits later.
...it's one thing for an author to say, "You know, I really don't like some aspects of my story, I'm going to rewrite it so I can be proud of it." It's a completely different thing (and a dick move) for someone else to say, "Hey, I don't like this aspect of the story! You should start over and rewrite it so that I think it's perfect!"
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:17 am

SilentCarto wrote:
swicked wrote:TL;DR: Snipe wanted to perform massive edits AFTER the fic was done, not to stop it all right now. If you agree with what he wants, just finish the fic under the current continuity and see about edits later.
...it's one thing for an author to say, "You know, I really don't like some aspects of my story, I'm going to rewrite it so I can be proud of it." It's a completely different thing (and a dick move) for someone else to say, "Hey, I don't like this part of the story! You should start over and rewrite it so that I think it's perfect!"
If.
Somber agrees.
With what Snipe wants.
Somber wrote:He was right in his criticisms
Which she seems to.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Kippershy on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:21 am

Spose I ought to apologise.
See, when I posted on 4chan, I was having a muck-about. I wasn't joking when I say we get Somber imitators from time to time. Same happens to Kkat. Same happened to me even.

Fuzzy and Pacce are the only two I haven't seen it happen to and that's because they both use secure tripcodes to identify themselves and prove they really are who they claim to be.

Anyway anyway anyway, my intention really, really wasn't to cause chaos. My intention was to have a five second laugh, and initially I got that five second laugh when I had one response that assumed I really was Somber and two other responses questioning the possibility of it being legit.

When Swicked posted the link over here however, that's when things turned from a five second laugh of tricking a few gulible posters on 4chan turned into OHSHI-NIGGA WAT YOU DOING territory.

See, I was hoping he'd remove the link when I assured him it wasn't Somber.

Next thing I know? Real Somber comes along and I can tell it's legit because the writing style is a perfect match where-as my mock post was just a throw together to imitate but not be an exact copy of your style, Somber.
Why bother at all? Because like I say, I thought it'd be a five second joke and nothing harmful.

Basically, from there it all got out of hand and now I feel bad because what I had meant to be a joke became something serious.


I apologise for being a <s>douchebag</s>cunt. I know that doesn't stop me from being said cunt, but yeah.
At least I'm apologising.


I promise I won't imitate you again Somber. It's obvious now I do a too convincing job of it anyway.
Now, imitating Kkat on the other hand... I've yet to master that one though I know the premise of it all and I totally have no shame because I'll totally give that one another go at some point.

Yes, I am a cunt, but I'm not a cunt for the sake of being a cunt but rather because I don't expect anyone to take me seriously and as long as it doesn't become serious, it can be considered funny with a little sense of humour.



...Now to go back to my pre-reading junk.

*goes back to hiding*
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by SilentCarto on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:22 am

swicked wrote:If.
Somber agrees.
With what Snipe wants.
I don't know what you mean by this. Whether Somber agrees with the critisim or not, it's still rude.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:30 am

SilentCarto wrote:
swicked wrote:If.
Somber agrees.
With what Snipe wants.
I don't know what you mean by this. Whether Somber agrees with the critisim or not, it's still rude.
I would agree if he was one of us, IE someone who's just been reading it and would not have to lift a figure during such a rewrite. As one of the editors, he'd be part of the massive editing that this would entail and I think he's free to have opinions like these if he thinks it would improve the overall story.

Edit:
Kippershy wrote:*snip*
Hey, kipper?
I WAS RIGHT!

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Caoimhe on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:03 am

You know, I'm kinda surprised in FoE/PH/etc that there never was another pony religion that started. You'd think with the princesses dead, ponies would start to seek divine guidance elsewhere. Sure we got the whole Zebra thing but with utter chaos everywhere including physical gods that failed, wouldn't some ponies turn elsewhere or deny the divinity of the princesses as a result?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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