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[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:39 pm

1. If Twilight didn't already know about the black book (didn't PH have rarity recieve a message regarding the MoAS having attempted to destroy it at her request and failed?), she would find out.

I don't think it matters what is even in the book. Twilight gets an idea, then follows it. All of Rarity's research on her own with B-class unicorns could have been done in a week with Twilight and her staff. They'd exhaust all the spells in the book almost immediately, then start working on improving them and creating new ones.
Twilight is a manic intellectual powerhouse and I don't think you're giving her enough credit.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Cptadder on Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:40 pm

That Featherduster get's back into the six technologies issue. First you need a way to transfer skills from ponies to memory orbs (1) then you need to be able to mass duplicate memory orbs (2) then you need a method of producing large amounts of soldiers (3) quickly (4) and make them loyal (5) and last you need a method of quickly training these loyal soldiers using the transferring skills from memory orbs (6).
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Guarddogjr on Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:44 pm

swicked wrote:1. If Twilight didn't already know about the black book (didn't PH have rarity recieve a message regarding the MoAS having attempted to destroy it at her request and failed?), she would find out.

I don't think it matters what is even in the book. Twilight gets an idea, then follows it. All of Rarity's research on her own with B-class unicorns could have been done in a week with Twilight and her staff. They'd exhaust all the spells in the book almost immediately, then start working on improving them and creating new ones.
Twilight is a manic intellectual powerhouse and I don't think you're giving her enough credit.

Yeah, I gotta agree with Swicked. If Twilight actually used the Black Book, who knows what kind of eldrich horrors she could bring into Equestria. And IIRC, it was mentioned the book seemed to gain spells based off of what the reader was looking for...
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Cptadder on Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:45 pm

swicked wrote:1. If Twilight didn't already know about the black book (didn't PH have rarity recieve a message regarding the MoAS having attempted to destroy it at her request and failed?), she would find out.
That was Spike I thought being asked to destroy the book, knowledge of the Black Book was closely held. Celestia knew, Spike knew, of course Applejack and Rarity knew but beyond that? Snips and Snails and how?

swicked wrote:
I don't think it matters what is even in the book. Twilight gets an idea, then follows it. All of Rarity's research on her own with B-class unicorns could have been done in a week with Twilight and her staff. They'd exhaust all the spells in the book almost immediately, then start working on improving them and creating new ones.
Twilight is exploring all routes to get magic to help turn the tide. If she knew WHAT the book was along with what it contained why did she never explore the possibilities? As far as we know only Rarity knew of the book along with her agency, AJ, Spike, and Celestia. If her department was ordered to destroy the book would she know why or what? If I recall correctly (And I might not) Celestia ordered the book destroyed and Rarity only got it back because MoAS failed.

swicked wrote:
Twilight is a manic intellectual powerhouse and I don't think you're giving her enough credit.
My question is not with her skills but with the motivation and means, would it even occur to commit the ultimate sin and attempt Pony Transmutation to bring her dead friend back to life?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:05 pm

FeatherDust wrote:On the cloning thing, the whole plan depends on getting the flash learning memory orbs to work. Even if you use real time orbs, I still maintain that experiencing a memory orb is not the same as doing it for real. Listening to lectures on tape does not prepare you for writing lectures. Training involves making decisions, carrying then out, and seeing how things turn out. A memory orb does not do that; it just shows you some events while you ride along with no control over what happens. Without agency, you may learn on an intellectual level, but you can't develop real physical skills, any more than watching a football player on TV teaches you how to throw a pass.

And all this assumes that your clones can start with understanding of language, which we have no reason to believe. It takes a child years to learn to understand more than rudimentary phrases, so how are you going to teach even basic tactics without high level language skills?
Take an orb recording of a soldier's entire life from birth to training. Edit out inconvenient parts, maybe splice together a dozen or so people's memories for one optimal one, whatever. Spend a few days running the clone through the equivalent of twenty years of life. They experience the same input that the template soldier did, over the same subjective period, and learn the same things from it. Then they come out and yes their body isn't properly adapted to use their "experience" but a few months of physical therapy fixes that up. The training would be suboptimal because it wasn't tailored to the individual's learning speed and talents, but you'd get a lot of bodies on the field rapidly.

No, the technological problems are all in the hardware; you need to somehow modify the normal growth processes of a naturally conceived foal to come to term rapidly (1) in a tube (2, because Tarot's transplanting seems to indicate they had no way to grow foals outside a valid mother, and a mare couldn't survive sustaining a child growing that rapidly inside), then accelerate their growth to get physical maturity within months (3), while keeping them on sufficiently good life support to sustain such horrendously rapid growth (4), physically train or modify them to have bone and muscle development sufficient for combat conditions despite growing up pretty much stationary (5), and somehow after all of this have them survive long enough that they don't just break down on the battlefield (6).



swicked wrote:1. If Twilight didn't already know about the black book (didn't PH have rarity recieve a message regarding the MoAS having attempted to destroy it at her request and failed?), she would find out.

I don't think it matters what is even in the book. Twilight gets an idea, then follows it. All of Rarity's research on her own with B-class unicorns could have been done in a week with Twilight and her staff. They'd exhaust all the spells in the book almost immediately, then start working on improving them and creating new ones.
Twilight is a manic intellectual powerhouse and I don't think you're giving her enough credit.
It's not clear that there are specific spells in the Black Book, or limits to its uses. It's clearly sentient, and appears to have a direct connection to the stars; for all we know it just keeps giving you more knowledge and power for as long as you're receptive to it and have the ability to follow along. And with Twilight, a unicorn whose talent is Magic... Basically if she knew about the book, and didn't shy away at the first example of seriously Black magics, she could easily be wielding the full power of the Stars within months.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:19 pm

Just... Why is it that you think Rarity wouldn't give Twilight access to the book?

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Cptadder on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:22 pm

swicked wrote:Just... Why is it that you think Rarity wouldn't give Twilight access to the book?
I don't think Twilight knows about the contents of the Black Book, I don't think Rarity would go to Twilight and suggest they commit the ultimate sin and attempt Pony Transmutation to bring Fluttershy back to life.

And last I don't think Twilight would try to bring her friend back to life just like I don't think Rarity would suggest it. Without Twilight to attempt it or Rarity to suggest it... Twilight breaks, Rarity breaks, Pinkie goes crazy and the others quit to help.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:24 pm

Rarity is only keeping it from twilight under the belief she wouldn't understand.
When Twilight begins exhausting every method of saving Fluttershy that she can I think Rarity would see it as an opportunity to fast-forward her own research in the wake of twilight's own.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:24 pm

Sindri wrote:Basically if she knew about the book, and didn't shy away at the first example of seriously Black magics, she could easily be wielding the full power of the Stars within months.
...
I'm now wondering who would win: the Eater of Souls or Nightmare Sparkle. Because those two would definitely fight for dominance eventually...
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overlong Analysis Cobalt on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:28 pm

@Black book
I'm pretty sure that Rarity would give Twilight access to the book if Fluttershy died, BUT if you needed to have her not do so for plot reasons, I'd suggest making Rarity into a Gollum. Sure, the Black Book would want to get to Twilight, but if Rarity became crazily addicted/dependent on it and secreted it away, well... maybe. And her reasons might not even be selfish - she might know in her heart that the Book is corrupting her, and wants to limit the damage by keeping it to herself as she tries to become talented enough to bring back Fluttershy. But, failing that, yeah. She'd probably hand the Book over to Twilight, likely as a way of consoling her after the death and to say, "Look; we still can fix this!" And Twilight would jump at the opportunity, I bet. (Although, this would also depend on when Fluttershy died; you'd want Rarity enthralled as much as possible by the Book, so that rather than breaking down, she'd turn to It for the power to make things right)
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by RoboRed on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:28 pm

I'd pay money to see that battle.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:39 pm

Cptadder wrote:
swicked wrote:Just... Why is it that you think Rarity wouldn't give Twilight access to the book?
I don't think Twilight knows about the contents of the Black Book, I don't think Rarity would go to Twilight and suggest they commit the ultimate sin and attempt Pony Transmutation to bring Fluttershy back to life.
FO:E is not FMA
Bringing someone back from the dead might not be forbidden... just impossible.
The pony gods are mortal and fallible. There might not even be the concept of a sin... the idea of something fundamentally repulsive and horrible. These are the ponies of paradise, of eden, and they are still learning how to sin. The thought and act of necromancy might be upsetting, but i don't think its quite as horrifying a taboo as it is for the zebra, particularly for an intellectual like Twilight that focuses on possibilities, not consequences.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Cptadder on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:52 pm

swicked wrote:
Cptadder wrote:
swicked wrote:Just... Why is it that you think Rarity wouldn't give Twilight access to the book?
I don't think Twilight knows about the contents of the Black Book, I don't think Rarity would go to Twilight and suggest they commit the ultimate sin and attempt Pony Transmutation to bring Fluttershy back to life.
FO:E is not FMA
Bringing someone back from the dead might not be forbidden... just impossible.
The pony gods are mortal and fallible. There might not even be the concept of a sin... the idea of something fundamentally repulsive and horrible. These are the ponies of paradise, of eden, and they are still learning how to sin. The thought and act of necromancy might be upsetting, but i don't think its quite as horrifying a taboo as it is for the zebra, particularly for an intellectual like Twilight that focuses on possibilities, not consequences.
The reason I keep quoting FMA is the same reason I mention pet cemetery. There has never been any indication that a successful resurrection is possible from the Black Book. Further the indications are the Black Book is a sentient, malevolent artifact which exists to teach it's dread secrets. But does it even know this secret?

Remember Celestia read the book, but the most powerful thing she did was soul jarring herself. She did not become a Lich or resurrect Luna or any of the other dread powers I've seen people assuming the Black Book knows how to do. So along with the assumption that Rarity would ask Twilight to resurrect Twilight (Which I content would be out of character for Rarity). Even if the Black Book directly offered it up, hey Page 1 How to return Dead Pegasuses named Fluttershy back to life I don't think Rarity would go for it except as noted when she was most in the thrall of the book.

And even then while I agree with you crazy Twilight if she so chose would throw herself into bring back the dead with gusto I don't believe she would do it. I believe fundamentally at her core that Twilight is a good pony and there are lines she would not cross because she would not be able to meet Fluttershy's eyes if she did. She would be unable to make the sacrifices required of herself and others.

Because lets be blunt, if the Black Book DOES have a how to to bringing back the dead, I don't believe it will involve nutmeg, two hundred pounds of meat and a bit of Fluttershy mane to pull off. I'm guessing blood its the first and last ingredient and it requires it by the bucket.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ironmonger on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:01 pm

RoboRed wrote:I'd pay money to see that battle.

They outlaw cock fighting so we invent eldritch abomination fighting.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ketchup on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:06 pm

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Frost on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:16 pm

Ironmonger wrote:
RoboRed wrote:I'd pay money to see that battle.

They outlaw cock fighting so we invent eldritch abomination fighting.

If this pseudo-clone army thing could be straightened out, you could just take all the malformed or failed subjects and have them fight it out gladiator-style
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overlong Analysis Cobalt on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:18 pm

It's normal for phones and cell phones and stuff to get all disconnected during a storm, right?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by WovenTales on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:18 pm

One thing I do want to remind everyone of (it just keeps jarring me every time it's mentioned, sorry), is that while recording a memory orb might happen quickly, I think—and please tell me if I'm wrong—that it's been mentioned several times that viewing one takes the same duration as the original event; in order to use them as a basis for implanting combat knowledge, that's another limitation that would need to be overcome, though it might fit into one of the previously established categories.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Sindri on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:23 pm

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:It's normal for phones and cell phones and stuff to get all disconnected during a storm, right?
Pretty much. Solid wires get disconnected, the atmospheric effects screw with radio signals, towers might be damaged, and even if everything is still connected there are usually enough people trying to talk that the lines are all jammed.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Admiral Stoic Rum on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:27 pm

Its simple really. Modifying the ponies to be geared for battle and unwavering loyalty and chain of command with conditioning for hate. Three year program for growth. Education and applied training. Oooo hidden facility time travel and secret army
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Cptadder on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:28 pm

WovenTales wrote:One thing I do want to remind everyone of (it just keeps jarring me every time it's mentioned, sorry), is that while recording a memory orb might happen quickly, I think—and please tell me if I'm wrong—that it's been mentioned several times that viewing one takes the same duration as the original event; in order to use them as a basis for implanting combat knowledge, that's another limitation that would need to be overcome, though it might fit into one of the previously established categories.
Thank you for reminding me, yes removal of memories only takes a few minutes and it seems that editing is does while still poking around people's heads. So there is another problem (7) find a way to play memory orbs super fast.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Valikdu on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:30 pm

Mister Frost wrote:
Ironmonger wrote:
RoboRed wrote:I'd pay money to see that battle.

They outlaw cock fighting so we invent eldritch abomination fighting.

If this pseudo-clone army thing could be straightened out, you could just take all the malformed or failed subjects and have them fight it out gladiator-style

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:39 pm

RoboRed wrote:I'd pay money to see that battle.
You'd probably also want to invest in a very good telescope to watch it with.

re resurrection:
What about when Blackjack died the second time? Granted, that's not a very clear case, but, while we don't know that she was all the way dead (and that pulling a soul out of the everafter isn't significantly more difficult than wrenching it away from the EoS), it is probably the closest thing we have.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Cptadder on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:46 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
RoboRed wrote:I'd pay money to see that battle.
You'd probably also want to invest in a very good telescope to watch it with.

re resurrection:
What about when Blackjack died the second time? Granted, that's not a very clear case, but, while we don't know that she was all the way dead (and that pulling a soul out of the everafter isn't significantly more difficult than wrenching it away from the EoS), it is probably the closest thing we have.

Her soul was being torn away from her body, she was the victim of a shadow curse meant to tear her soul out and tear it up. Her body however was fine. Remember we see the same thing with Snips and Snails, they are souls bound to a form, just another soul jar in their own body. There is no creation of new life there only the transferal of it from one place to another. From one vessel to another vessel not direct recreation of the person involved.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Frost on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:52 pm

Valikdu wrote:
Mister Frost wrote:
Ironmonger wrote:
RoboRed wrote:I'd pay money to see that battle.

They outlaw cock fighting so we invent eldritch abomination fighting.

If this pseudo-clone army thing could be straightened out, you could just take all the malformed or failed subjects and have them fight it out gladiator-style


Like that, only it wouldn't be a bunch of frat boys pretending to be scientists.

It's be a bunch of sadistic sociopaths pretending to be.... Not that. Litteray anything else. In my experience, everything's all fine and dandy till you drop the teensy-tiny bomb that you're a sociopath.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overlong Analysis Cobalt on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:56 pm

@Sindri
Thanks, I'm just a bit worried. Got through to everyone a few minutes after posting, though, so it's good for now (power came back on for a second, apparently; there was a huge fireball and lightning storm outside my family's house due to high power lines getting hit or something but it's kay now). Storm hasn't even hit in earnest yet.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ironmonger on Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:05 pm

Shoving canon (read: Kkat's thinking) aside for the moment, wouldn't it be possible that someone outside of Equestria developed some of the tech needed for cloning?

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Cptadder on Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:07 pm

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:@Sindri
Thanks, I'm just a bit worried. Got through to everyone a few minutes after posting, though, so it's good for now (power came back on for a second, apparently; there was a huge fireball and lightning storm outside my family's house due to high power lines getting hit or something but it's kay now). Storm hasn't even hit in earnest yet.
That's the nasty bit about this storm is that it's still two hours from making landfall and already a million people are without power and we are twelve hours away from the back half of the storm and it's steady wind. Already there is 50mph-60mph steady winds but once the storm hits that jumps to 70mph-80mph with 100 mph gusts.

Ironmonger wrote:Shoving canon (read: Kkat's thinking) aside for the
moment, wouldn't it be possible that someone outside of Equestria
developed some of the tech needed for cloning?
Necessity is the mother of invention, what need except a country at war would you need for large scale flash cloning? Even if it's regular cloning that type of cloning that is useful for flash cloning assembly line soldiers.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Frost on Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:08 pm

Ironmonger wrote:Shoving canon (read: Kkat's thinking) aside for the moment, wouldn't it be possible that someone outside of Equestria developed some of the tech needed for cloning?

If there were other nations (pony or not) they wouldn't have had the same technological leaps-and-bounds forward that Equestria got from the war. Any tech they had would have been sold or traded to them by Equestria
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overlong Analysis Cobalt on Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:14 pm

Ironmonger wrote:Shoving canon (read: Kkat's thinking) aside for the moment, wouldn't it be possible that someone outside of Equestria developed some of the tech needed for cloning?
Literally anything is possible, and I don't just mean that from a weird quantum thingummy perspective. Since the entirety of the world upon which Equestria lies is not defined, there could be anything beyond the next hill, so to speak. Though fitting it into the world of FOE would require that this hill be a very, very long ways away from all the main players of the war, I expect, to avoid Frost's valid point about trading/selling of technology.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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