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[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:58 pm

Meleagridis wrote:
FeatherDust wrote:
I'm not trying to be a pain but, uh, isn't the page you linked basically the prime resource for locating examples of the trope?

A) I have faith in the opinions of the people frequenting this thread. I'd rather have results filtered through their knowledge and tastes than the faceless mass of TVtropes users.

B) It completely slipped my mind to use the page.

Since I'm already asking obvious questions, would anyone tell me what classification or genre you'd place the Flim/Flam Brothers song into? It escapes me at the moment.

I'd say they start out as honest--if fast-talking, high-pressure, and greedy--hucksters, who end up becoming full-on charlatans/snake-oil salesmen when the competition goes south.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by RoboRed on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:02 pm

Alrighty, music list for Ch50 is finally up here.

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Aonee wrote:
jacky2734 wrote:((Aonee, don't make me invent a way to punch you over the internet.))
((If you do, I will invent a Korean technique to block it with someone else's face. And, construct more pylons.))

CamoBadger wrote:((Wow, zebra incest is powerful shit))

Mister Frost's friend, "Darren" wrote:"I'm scared to break up with her, though. Her dad's an ex-marine; if I make her cry he'll club me over the head with a pillowcase full of doorknobs and Tom Clancy novels."

Sindri wrote:This is a thread for fans of a fanfiction of a fanfiction about murderous miniature pastel equines in a grimdark post-apocalyptic future.
If you wanted to stay anywhere near socially acceptable, you should have taken a left turn about three layers of WTF back.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Overlong Analysis Cobalt on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:03 pm

Icy Shake wrote:
Meleagridis wrote:
FeatherDust wrote:
I'm not trying to be a pain but, uh, isn't the page you linked basically the prime resource for locating examples of the trope?

A) I have faith in the opinions of the people frequenting this thread. I'd rather have results filtered through their knowledge and tastes than the faceless mass of TVtropes users.

B) It completely slipped my mind to use the page.

Since I'm already asking obvious questions, would anyone tell me what classification or genre you'd place the Flim/Flam Brothers song into? It escapes me at the moment.

I'd say they start out as honest--if fast-talking, high-pressure, and greedy--hucksters, who end up becoming full-on charlatans/snake-oil salesmen when the competition goes south.
Greedy huckster is my favorite genre of music! Spike (sorry!) To contribute... I have no idea! Musical, if that's a genre? It's whatever the Music Man's music is.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Meleagridis on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:44 pm

Icy Shake wrote:
I'd say they start out as honest--if fast-talking, high-pressure, and greedy--hucksters, who end up becoming full-on charlatans/snake-oil salesmen when the competition goes south.

I was more referring to the song. Normally I wouldn't bring this up, but I don't recall the "Flim and Flam: Enterprising Businessponies or Shady Conmen?!" argument coming up before in the PHCC. So let's.

Flim and Flam never lied. Not once. The closest they ever came to speaking untruthfully was speaking quietly when Flim whispered something about running them out of business (Presumably, apples give off Honesty Radiation that slowly infects the ponies that work with them for long periods of time). They pitched their product honestly- using a catchy song doesn't lower the quality of their product. And it was high quality. It's not like they were forcing a shoddy, broken down machine on the apples. The thing they made was good at what it did. Heck, the evidence is on their butts.

They may have been jerks... or very poor with numbers or simply the finer points of running a business. But they weren't conmen.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Admiral Stoic Rum on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:53 pm

The thing was how they were trying to ream the apple family by making a very high stakes bet with minimal loss to themselves. We already know their cider only came out poor quality when they pushed the machine to work beyond its quality assurance ability. A common mistake of competitors they would sacrifice quality for quantity. Another thing is they wanted to take an unfair amount of profit from cider sales with a proposed partnership.this is where we get the scheister feel from them. All they would do is power their machine which does the work.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:59 pm

Meleagridis wrote:
Icy Shake wrote:
I'd say they start out as honest--if fast-talking, high-pressure, and greedy--hucksters, who end up becoming full-on charlatans/snake-oil salesmen when the competition goes south.

I was more referring to the song. Normally I wouldn't bring this up, but I don't recall the "Flim and Flam: Enterprising Businessponies or Shady Conmen?!" argument coming up before in the PHCC. So let's.

Flim and Flam never lied. Not once. The closest they ever came to speaking untruthfully was speaking quietly when Flim whispered something about running them out of business (Presumably, apples give off Honesty Radiation that slowly infects the ponies that work with them for long periods of time). They pitched their product honestly- using a catchy song doesn't lower the quality of their product. And it was high quality. It's not like they were forcing a shoddy, broken down machine on the apples. The thing they made was good at what it did. Heck, the evidence is on their butts.

They may have been jerks... or very poor with numbers or simply the finer points of running a business. But they weren't conmen.

We did have this discussion before. The way I remember it, it basically came down to the ideas that first, both they and the Apples were handling the situation poorly, and second, that monopoly is bad. The conversation also sort of evolved into a debate over causes of the apparent poverty of the Apples, before basically petering out.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Admiral Stoic Rum on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:01 pm

I am curious about that, it looks like the apples have a monopoly on the majority of the food market in Ponyville, even producing a raredelicacy once a year.

Perhaps a shortcoming is in the commercial side, they just don't have a wide enough market?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:08 pm

As far as I could tell, the best explanation anyone could come up with was either that apples just don't sell for any kind of reasonable price (and I guess that most of the margin on Zap Apples goes to the Riches?) or that they had high, off-screen costs that didn't really translate well into costs faced by human agriculturalists.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Meleagridis on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:46 pm

Icy Shake wrote:
We did have this discussion before.

My own poor memory, then. Oops.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Erumpet on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:47 pm

@Apples: like it's been said we had this argument already. I was one of the few few pro Flim flam brothers people if I recall correctly, but really it moved quickly away from the brothers and to other things, like monopolies, and why the Apples are so poor and what not.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by CamoBadger on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:49 pm

Admiral Stoic Rum wrote:I am curious about that, it looks like the apples have a monopoly on the majority of the food market in Ponyville, even producing a raredelicacy once a year.

Perhaps a shortcoming is in the commercial side, they just don't have a wide enough market?
Well, there's the Carrot farm next door. We've seen the tomato farmer, celery farmer, and cherry farmer (not Cherry Jubilee, the asshole that tried to rob Flutters) as well. And then there's the Cakes...with as much as Pinkie throws parties, they might be pretty close behind in food market

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by O. Hinds on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 pm

Cptadder wrote:
O. Hinds wrote:

Cptadder wrote:My headcanon knows for a fact that the Zebra Caesar did not survive the war. Or to be more exact the one who started the war was not the one who finished it. My headcannon postulates that two to as many as five Caesars held the title. As names and glory was won in war the young headstrong one who kicked off the war was replaced by a son or daughter who then was replaced by someone who have covered themselves in glory and then either held on to the end or replaced by a son or daughter of their own.

If they were trying to kill Luna constantly I don't see MoA and the Goldenblood not sending even a single dagger back the other way.
This is also a good point.

Erumpet wrote:@Zebra Ceasar: I definitely see him as a Hitleresque leader, lots of motivational speeches, complete authority, idolized, almost worshipped, but not quite a god, just as close as a human can be. To his followers at least.
…Wow, we really have different headcanons. I see the position starting roughly a bit above the President of the European Council in terms of power/prestige and ending maybe around or a bit below the President of the United States.

stringtheory wrote:
I see him as somewhere between President level and Roman Emperor, remember he had to play politics to stay in power and in order to show he had power he started the coal embargo because the Wonderbolt rescue mission in zebra eyes an insult to their sovereignty, and if he did nothing he would've probably been kicked out, IIRC

A reminder here because Stringtheory touched on it. Kkhat mentioned this in the comments way back when. Pre-war the Caesar was a combination UN Secretary General and Oprah (That's a fun combo) he had no physical power, he had no division to call on. He was the ultimate arbiter between the tribes. To become Caesar you had to simply let it be know your were applying for the job and convince the tribes to give it to you. Depending on the period of history the process of Caesar was very formal to very informal. The proccess was ultimatly based on winning the respect of the tribes and once won maintaining it. A wise Caesar spent his respect well and sparingly for his basic purpose was mediation between tribes not to rule them. As the ultimate neutral third party he could be counted on to rule fairly and well on disputes not on ruling the Zebras.

Start head cannon
To put it bluntly the Zebras had little need for a Caesar with real powers, being so well respected and well known they could (Like Orpah in her heyday) simple say a thing should be done and soon the common people would rally to their chiefs and get that thing done.

But War demands sacrifices and you need a Warchief when war comes a knocking meaning the position of Caesar naturally morphed into the position of Supreme Commander of Zebra forces. However the position was still respect based meaning that when the war went south or a sudden reversal was suffered then the Caesar had to step down. Which meant when the war kicked off the Caesar had a great deal of power, but as time went and as Caesars were killed or resigned or were removed the unelected military officers retained more power. Who knows how well along the progress was when the day of fire and end of all arrived.
Oh, right, this bit isn't something that sprang wholly from my own brain! I'd pretty much completely forgotten that.

Icy Shake wrote:As far as I could tell, the best explanation anyone could come up with was either that apples just don't sell for any kind of reasonable price (and I guess that most of the margin on Zap Apples goes to the Riches?) or that they had high, off-screen costs that didn't really translate well into costs faced by human agriculturalists.
Well, the farm is next to the Everfree; their insurance premiums are probably not small. I doubt that Ponyville being the surfacing place for both Nightmare Moon and Discord helped with that.



By the way, I played in my university's second annual Physics vs. Chemistry laser tag match today (We won, making the record 2-0! That'll teach the Chemistry department to challenge us at throwing coherent light pulses around!)... and I was Player 21.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Erumpet on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:53 pm

On an unrelated note, today in English Language and Compisition I had to argue that corruption in the Phillipines does not prevent the passing of woman's rights laws. It was just so obscure, I had know idea what to say even, but luckily the teacher sent the assignment home, so thats what I've been doing tonight. Well that and Borderlands 2. What are you guys up to this fine evening(adjust for time zone)?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Erumpet on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:55 pm

@hinds: so you where P(hysics)- 21? I certainly hope you played that for everything it's worth. Was there anyone else there that would get the reference?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ironmonger on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:07 am

Cherry Jubilee, the asshole that tried to rob Flutters

Damn you I have this stupid grin on my face. XD

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Stringtheory on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:23 am

just found this:


I CAN"T STOP CRYING
Spoiler:
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ironmonger on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:29 am

stringtheory wrote:just found this:


I CAN"T STOP CRYING
Spoiler:

Unphased. Roid Rage

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Cptadder on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:32 am

O. Hinds wrote:
Oh, right, this bit isn't something that sprang wholly from my own brain! I'd pretty much completely forgotten that.
For obvious reasons FoE never goes into the Zebra political situation but Kkat spend time doing world building in the comment threads. Just like Sebria we forget things until we remember them....
Derpy Hooves Or something


O. Hinds wrote:
By the way, I played in my university's second annual Physics vs. Chemistry laser tag match today (We won, making the record 2-0! That'll teach the Chemistry department to challenge us at throwing coherent light pulses around!)... and I was Player 21.
So did anyone go through the play area walls? Maybe that's just because it was Navy VS Marine night at the laser tag arena outside Pensacola and the people running it always hated us because both sides got into it (And did things like cheating forming shield walls with "acquired" bits of the arena) and equipment got damaged.

OAN
@Apple Family economics
I assume the Apple family runs a high yield low return operation since they don't have any workers for them meaning Apples sell cheaply and their local market is small. Remember kids without a decent transportation system the only place you can sell your good is to your local neighbors. Cider seems to be a hot seller for them as does Zapp Apples but both are seasonal which means the rest of the years it's Apples... Apples and more Apples. And from what we can tell Apples don't fetch much of a price.

Which is odd because Ponyvillie is on the roalroad so the Apple family should be able to sell their wares up and down the rail line. I dunno maybe there was a Ponyapple seed who planted Equestria with enough wild orchards to make raw apples a low selling price point since you can find a tree or two on your land easy as can be.

@The Children of Faust PMV
Also unphased, to good for em I say!
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Stringtheory on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:41 am

Ironmonger wrote:Unphased. Roid Rage

Cptadder wrote:@The Children of Faust PMV
Also unphased, to good for em I say!

how are you even human?...I kid, most of the time stuff doesn't phase me either, but this...*starts bawling again*
again, we need so many more emotes here, the running list I've come up with so far is facehoof (guess the Scoot headslam kinda counts) and now a crying/bawling one, anymore suggestions?
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by swicked on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:48 am

@The Children of Faust PMV
Unphased, I suppose, but confused as well... how is this supposed to be more impactful than when Esméralda sang it?

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Admiral Stoic Rum on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:49 am

stringtheory wrote:just found this:


I CAN"T STOP CRYING
Spoiler:

and then they all fuckerd
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Stringtheory on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:49 am

Cptadder wrote:
@Apple Family economics
I assume the Apple family runs a high yield low return operation since they don't have any workers for them meaning Apples sell cheaply and their local market is small. Remember kids without a decent transportation system the only place you can sell your good is to your local neighbors. Cider seems to be a hot seller for them as does Zapp Apples but both are seasonal which means the rest of the years it's Apples... Apples and more Apples. And from what we can tell Apples don't fetch much of a price.

Which is odd because Ponyvillie is on the roalroad so the Apple family should be able to sell their wares up and down the rail line. I dunno maybe there was a Ponyapple seed who planted Equestria with enough wild orchards to make raw apples a low selling price point since you can find a tree or two on your land easy as can be.
or there's a branch of the Apple family near every town so AJ and co. can't sell their apples outside of ponyville because other branches would consider it infringing on 'their' territory
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Erumpet on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:56 am

@cptadder&appleecon: they may not sell the apples for much, but they don't spend any money at all on their farms, except possibly taxes. They don't pay labor costs, they own an orchard so no yearly seed or fertilizer costs, they aren't using machinery that may break down, they are providing their own food, there is really nothing for them to have to pay for. I mean Applejack raises the point of housing and medical expenses, but callous as this may sound Granny Smith is not long for this world and they have truly massive fields of trees do they could always cut a few down for lumber. Unless the Big Mac has a bad morphine problem or Applejack can't stay away from the casinos and liquor, I really see no expenses on their part. Plus about transportation, well I suppose you already addressed that but their is a train to the capital and at least one other city. I guess mostly I'm agreeing with most of what you said, just the transportation thing and I wanted to point out they have no expenses.

Edit: String's theory about the apples addresses transportation for the most part
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ironmonger on Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:58 am

Cptadder wrote:
For obvious reasons FoE never goes into the Zebra political situation but Kkat spend time doing world building in the comment threads. Just like Sebria we forget things until we remember them....
Derpy Hooves Or something

Might need to spell that out for me cause my brain keeps getting a 404. My only guess is "they didn't go to Roam/wherever"

Also I'm FoE-ifying this. Spike

Spoiler:

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Cptadder on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:01 am

@Stringtheory
I like that explanation, if the Apples have to many of the family following the Apple trade then prices would be low.

@Erumpet
Schooling might not be free, and they might be paying other people to rent wagons or pay for Appleblooms schooling. Or Granny Smiths medical treatments.

@Ironmonger
Kkat was explicit that the reason for the war was unimportant, war happened everyone died. Kkat did not reverse herself until about thirty chapters in and she just sprinkled the reasons for the war when they hit the Ministries.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Ironmonger on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:05 am

That helps out more thanks.

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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Erumpet on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:18 am

@Cptadder: I hadn't thought of schooling thats a good point. But I don't see a business like this renting wagons really, it just seems so vital and cheap and with two workers they only would need two wagons. But we are moving away from my area of experience here, I freely admit I don't know the costs of wagons or the pros and cons of renting vs owning when it comes to wagons.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Icy Shake on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:24 am

The branch in every town makes sense, but then you'd think they'd scale down production or something: it's not like they're shy of exploiting monopoly power, after all. Though I doubt there's enough Apple supply native to Canterlot to fill the market, and Cloudsdale surely must import most or all of its food, and Ponyville seems a natural exporter to each simply based on proximity and transportation.

If it weren't the Apples (really just Applejack, actually), I'd think the poverty was just an act, considering that they were able to massively increase cider output--by a factor of what, ten times? (or more, considering the comparison period is probably a day against an hour?)--just by adding five extra workers (and not even using them to peak effectiveness), and it seems like pressing the stuff is basically minting bits. Sure, they were working much harder than normal, but it's obvious that machinery wasn't a limiting factor, and labor shouldn't have been one, either, as they could probably hire a dozen or two ponies for a few days to meet demand without paying too much. Either that, or they should just give up farming and go into day labor, because it would have to offer a better income than they have now.

@Erumpet: Totally agreed; those are all points I remember bringing up. I seriously wonder if they just need someone (pony FDR?) to clue them in to the benefits of supply restriction to agricultural commodities prices. My best guess for their problems was actually that they had heavy mortgage debt incurred by previous generations to pay for extravagant lifestyles, considering it seems like the current Apples don't have time for vice.
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Erumpet on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:27 am

Franklin Delano Ponevelt
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Erumpet
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

Post by Cptadder on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:29 am

Erumpet wrote:@Cptadder: I hadn't thought of schooling thats a good point. But I don't see a business like this renting wagons really, it just seems so vital and cheap and with two workers they only would need two wagons. But we are moving away from my area of experience here, I freely admit I don't know the costs of wagons or the pros and cons of renting vs owning when it comes to wagons.
Maybe not wagons but there's such a thing as the cost of being poor. I know from growing up...next to a farm that there are all sorts of specialized and expensive bits of farm equipment that cost lots of money and most farmers have to spend ten years paying off a loan.

Not to mention the Apple family has more than just Apples they have pigs and cows to. And the cows are intelligent so... I assume they are what... renting lots of the Apple family? Be cared for by the Apple family? We all know the pigs are 100% bacon bits except pigs also make great truffle hunters but... brain hurts.

Point is there's plenty of stuff Apple money could be going towards and being deep in debt is a big one. Something tells me the Apples can't buy anything like crop insurance and they already had to rebuild their home once (Parasprites) so they could be pretty far in debt and that's why they don't have much money. If they are deep in debt then they are facing lots of interest payments that's eating up money that could be spent on hiring workers for their farm.
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Cptadder
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Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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