[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

O. Hinds wrote:

ILM126 wrote:Hmmm. I think that was Apogee, I read that already. But still, every chapter is always great thanks to the help of Hinds and Somber. ^^

Thank you, though please don't forget the other editors.  :)

Yes, but I'm unsure of the full list of editors... ^^"
May I have the names so I can also say my thanks to them =D

It's on the hub page, but the current team members are me, Bronode, swicked, and Heartshine.

BLARRRGGGHHHHH!  ::Flails hooves!::

I hate writing this chapter!  Hate hate hate hate!  UGH...

Okay... here's why I hate it.  At the end of FoE, Kkat introduced us to Fluffy and to the white hellhound which was a shout out to the games.  I didn't like that.  It seemed sort of out of left field and pointless.  I mean, they didn't even really talk nor had any serious plot use.  They were just there.

So what am I doing now?!  INTRODUCING CHARACTERS AT THE LAST MINUTE WHERE THEY DON'T BELONG!  WHHHHHY!  Just kill them, Blackjack!  Just use Sexy and liquify them!  You don't have to talk them over to your side!  AHHHHHHHHH!  Stupid stupid stupid somber!  Just have the character be a mook and do something to get killed... but NO!  I have to give him personality and motivation!  He doesn't want to die because he's not a brood, he's a person!  I should have given Cognitum robots or something!

Edit: Blackjack: "Look!  I know you want to get through this, but I don't care!  Unlike you, I actually have to do the shit you put into my life!  Why don't you just have Cognitum decide to give up?  Make every one happy.  If I can convince somepony to give up then I'm going to do it.  And if they give up, then I'm going to give them a chance.  And if you don't like it, then too bad.  You should have made me some blood thirsty monster that shoots anypony she faces.  But you didn't.  So suck it up and write this damned thing!"

Somber: "You're very rude, you know that?  I didn't think I made you so rude."

Blackjack: "And I didn't think the being that created me would be so whiny.  So just write it.  After four years, it's getting old."

Somber: "Sigh... yes ma'am."

Sorry, Somber.

It sounds like you might be (accidentally) referencing that Enclave squad at the end of Fo2, though, if that helps.

Somber wrote:Okay... here's why I hate it.  At the end of FoE, Kkat introduced us to Fluffy and to the white hellhound which was a shout out to the games.  I didn't like that.  It seemed sort of out of left field and pointless.  I mean, they didn't even really talk nor had any serious plot use.  They were just there.

So what am I doing now?!  INTRODUCING CHARACTERS AT THE LAST MINUTE WHERE THEY DON'T BELONG!  WHHHHHY!  Just kill them, Blackjack!  Just use Sexy and liquify them!  You don't have to talk them over to your side!  AHHHHHHHHH!  Stupid stupid stupid somber!  Just have the character be a mook and do something to get killed... but NO!  I have to give him personality and motivation!  He doesn't want to die because he's not a brood, he's a person!  I should have given Cognitum robots or something!

If it's any consolation, it sounds like you're at least dodging one of the problems you identified with the albino: there is real interaction there; even if it isn't necessary for the plot, they're at least talking.

As for not trying to talk them over to her side, didn't that ship sail last chapter when she accidentally read the mind of one of the ponies brought up? Sure, she couldn't do anything about it in that case, but at this point she's probably at least thinking that these guys aren't all just there for the evil.

I stumbled upon this, and was reminded of Rampage.

I'll try to look deeper into that as it intrigues me: heard of the phenomenon years ago when I lurked on a spiritual / paranormal forum, but the possibility that it might actually be legit is interesting, from a cognitive standpoint.

One star pony or two?

Is the comforting presence that spoke to Blackjack on the surface of the moon and when she stroked out in the tram... Was that Tom?

I mean, it seems obvious that it is, and they both speak in the same color text, and Tom references finally meeting face to face... It's just that the voice seems compassionate and gentle and interested in protecting life, while Tom's few lines face to face come off as the opposite -- firing horizons would mean a devastating, planet-killing moonstone reaction, let alone what a conflict between star-souls would do. It seems like he's more interested in slaying the eater than defending the planet. Maybe it's just context, but Tom doesn't strike me as a particularly benevolent force in this situation. The phrase "Godzilla threshold"comes to mind. (That's when things are so bad that summoning Godzilla is actually the least destructive option.)

That said, narratively, I strongly suspect the Core is going to catch and consume Tom (or at least the moonstone gem he is inhabiting). Nightmare Cogs said something back in the Core about how if she wasn't there to guide it, the newly created star metal would just form into whatever was last programmed into the system. That can't just be an offhand comment that won't come to anything...

FeatherDust wrote:One star pony or two?

THERE! ARE! FOUR! LIGHTS!

FeatherDust wrote:Is the comforting presence that spoke to Blackjack on the surface of the moon and when she stroked out in the tram... Was that Tom?
I mean, it seems obvious that it is, and they both speak in the same color text, and Tom references finally meeting face to face... It's just that the voice seems compassionate and gentle and interested in protecting life, while Tom's few lines face to face come off as the opposite -- firing horizons would mean a devastating, planet-killing moonstone reaction, let alone what a conflict between star-souls would do. It seems like he's more interested in slaying the eater than defending the planet.

I'm pretty sure it is. I'd think of it like a nuclear bomber pilot playing with a puppy -- just because he has to end many lives for the greater good doesn't mean he's an omnicidal asshole in person.

FeatherDust wrote:That said, narratively, I strongly suspect the Core is going to catch and consume Tom (or at least the moonstone gem he is inhabiting).  Nightmare Cogs said something back in the Core about how if she wasn't there to guide it, the newly created star metal would just form into whatever was last programmed into the system. That can't just be an offhand comment that won't come to anything...

I'll have to look up that quote, it apparently kinda went past me without stopping. (Edit: Found it.) I think you're right, though, and the key here is going to be convincing Tom to abandon ship. Because I'm pretty sure if the EoS ate him, there'd be no stopping it.

At least, it'll probably start the process. Given the loopy path Tom has to take to hit the Core at Cogs' desired angle, a powered rocket flight back may well beat it in time to do something about those FADE shields. Or intercept it with Folly, of course.

Speaking of rockets, I'll be interested to see how they land that thing. Its intended landing site is now a glowing crater, and it's presumably supposed to make a powered landing rather than come down on chutes or something. I wonder if it has an emergency capsule-landing mode with the usual heat shield and parachute setup that would allow them to burn all their fuel on a high-speed return trip.

If it helps, Tom is thinking bigger picture.  Like, galaxy big.

Somber wrote:If it helps, Tom is thinking bigger picture.  Like, galaxy big.

On the other hoof, Tom probably decided to save the galaxy by himself. The other star spirits were willing to give, uh, whatever-the-planet's-called a chance, but Tom's all too happy to blow it up.

So, is Tom gonna go with "It is in the universe's best interest to re-originate this planet should my analysis find systemic corruption", or "See your world through my eyes: A universe so vast as to be immeasurable - incomprehensible even to your greatest minds"? Cause I don't think Blackjack has the time to gather a raid party...

Notice: My internet is currently not working. I do not know when I will get it back. I'm typing this from somewhere that closes in less than two hours today and that I don't know when I'll be able to reach again. Please, therefore, do not expect prompt responses. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. It's certainly causing me inconvenience.

SilentCarto wrote:Speaking of rockets, I'll be interested to see how they land that thing. Its intended landing site is now a glowing crater, and it's presumably supposed to make a powered landing rather than come down on chutes or something. I wonder if it has an emergency capsule-landing mode with the usual heat shield and parachute setup that would allow them to burn all their fuel on a high-speed return trip.

Speaking as someone with knowledge of the design, if the ship Blackjack took up had a proper pilot, it ought to be able to land on its tail just fine back on Equus, even with things as they currently are. The ESS-A1 can, as I seem to recall was mentioned, land on pretty much any sufficiently flat and level surface it won't sink into. With a proper pilot.

With the "pilots" they've got, of course... yeah, I'll be interested to see how they land that thing too. :D

Derpmind wrote:whatever-the-planet's-called

Equus

Somber wrote:If it helps, Tom is thinking bigger picture.  Like, galaxy big.

Well, yes.  That's fair -- that's what I was talking about earlier about "giants in the playground" though.  While it might be important on a stellar scale to have the Eater destroyed, it won't make much difference to the locals whether they get liquified by a malevolent soul-devouring monstrosity or vaporized by a friendly but big-picture hero-star sucker-punching the eater in an over-hyphenated sort of way.

That's why it kind of surprised me, retrospectively, to see Tom being so gentle and kind to Blackjack, if he knows he's about to cause an extinction event on her planet.

O. Hinds wrote:Speaking as someone with knowledge of the design, if the ship Blackjack took up had a proper pilot, it ought to be able to land on its tail just fine back on Equus, even with things as they currently are.  The ESS-A1 can, as I seem to recall was mentioned, land on pretty much any sufficiently flat and level surface it won't sink into.  With a proper pilot.

With the "pilots" they've got, of course... yeah, I'll be interested to see how they land that thing too.  :D

I sort of assumed it would be able to land on autopilot like it did on the Moon. I was more considering the possibility of not needing to cart the landing fuel back home, and using it to accelerate the homeward journey instead.

Because as much of a pain as the atmosphere is when you're trying to take off, it also means landing is always free!

Hmm. Cold comfort to the ones caught between him and the Eater, all but a few of whom have no idea of what's going on. But more to the point, I'm thinking about Blackjack. She's gotten a little more balanced over time, as with the Society, but I think it's still very much against her nature to sacrifice the few for the bigger picture. Given everything, this may mitigate her feelings about wanting the launch to happen, but I don't see her thinking it's a good idea in the end. She'll want to convince him that (despite his personal sacrifice, which may be irreversible already) there will be a better way of dealing with the Eater, one which doesn't require millions pay a price for which they were never even asked, much less that they agreed to. (Hell, she has trouble accepting others willingly making sacrifices.)

And back! Very surprisingly early, but I'm not complaining.

SilentCarto wrote:I sort of assumed it would be able to land on autopilot like it did on the Moon.

Except that the place the autopilot will want to land (unless Somber's doing something I'm not aware of) is, as has been mentioned, now a glowing crater.

SilentCarto wrote:I was more considering the possibility of not needing to cart the landing fuel back home, and using it to accelerate the homeward journey instead.

I suppose that the older rocket could burn its descent LOX (which is oxidizer, not fuel) at another point in the mission (if Blackjack and company could figure out how to tell it to do that, which is probably a big if), but I don't know that that would give all that much of a boost anyway. If they take the ESS-A1 instead, which would be the smart thing to do if they beat Cognitum on the moon, there's no landing oxidizer to burn.

SilentCarto wrote:Because as much of a pain as the atmosphere is when you're trying to take off, it also means landing is always free!

Hm. I'm pretty sure neither of those ships is equipped for aerobraking. Well, maybe a bit, but not as a primary means of acceleration. I suppose that there might also be emergency capsules...

O. Hinds wrote:

SilentCarto wrote:I was more considering the possibility of not needing to cart the landing fuel back home, and using it to accelerate the homeward journey instead.

I suppose that the older rocket could burn its descent LOX (which is oxidizer, not fuel) at another point in the mission (if Blackjack and company could figure out how to tell it to do that, which is probably a big if), but I don't know that that would give all that much of a boost anyway.

I think Scotch could figure out how to reconfigure the descent profile, but -- what do you mean 'descent LOX' as opposed to fuel? If the rocket was meant to use its rockets to land tail-first, surely it has both fuel and oxidizer enough to support that landing. So if you burn that while pointing "down" instead of "up", as it were, you should be able to get home faster and trust good old fashioned ablative reentry to get you down to the surface.

SilentCarto wrote:Because as much of a pain as the atmosphere is when you're trying to take off, it also means landing is always free!

Hm.  I'm pretty sure neither of those ships is equipped for aerobraking.  Well, maybe a bit, but not as a primary means of acceleration.  I suppose that there might also be emergency capsules...

Reentry is always aerobraking, by definition. Surely they don't carry enough fuel to go from orbit to surface on pure rocket force? That would be a ridiculous amount of fuel! (Just ask Kerbal Space Program...)

@FeatherDust:
...Ah. Yes. Very few people actually read that long editor's note on how the ships worked, didn't they?

Short version, both the old rocket and the ESS-A1 have for primary propulsion hydrogen talismans running through magical heaters, both systems powered by an onboard reactor. Magical Thermal Rocket (propellant generating) (MTRpg). They both, through this magical cheating, basically have unlimited DV until the reactor runs out of power. However, the older ship has a TWR less than 1 on Equus due to its more primitive engines. For ascent, it uses four external RP-1/LOX boosters. For descent, it uses an internal LOX tank and runs its engines in LAMTRpg mode. Both it and the ESS-A1 are designed to make powered rather than aerobraking descents.

Basically, the idea is that the particular sort of magical cheating Equestria used made powered descents practical, eliminating the heat and acceleration problems of aerobraking descents and granting significantly more control; it also allowed larger return payloads, lower maintenance, and greater reusability in general. They could have instead put on some sort of magical heatshield, yes, but that would add significant complexity, whereas they already had almost everything they needed for the powered descent system (the ESS-A1's fully SSTO, pure MTRpg system was what was desired and dreamed of from the program's start, too; the LOX tanks and boosters were a compromise to get some ships out before the better technology was available).

As an aside which might be interesting, my Pax Roamana (I'm afraid I don't know just what Somber's Zebra Empire did) cheated in a different way, using widely applied alchemical engineering to make a practical VentureStar-like SSTO spaceplane. They could actually get payloads up more cheaply compared to most of Equestria's ships, but their limited DV once they reached orbit put them at a significant disadvantage. The ESS-A1, had it gone into wider production and use, would have completely outclassed them, another part of the clear trend of Equestria pulling ahead in the tech race.

FeatherDust wrote:Reentry is always aerobraking, by definition.

Hm... Doesn't "aerobraking" imply intent, though?

Reentry is generally intentional, too. When it's not, the craft generally doesn't survive it.

Hm, that is a point, I think.

O. Hinds wrote:Except that the place the autopilot will want to land (unless Somber's doing something I'm not aware of) is, as has been mentioned, now a glowing crater.

Well, granted, but that's a matter for Science and Repair, and we've got some folks on board who are pretty good at that. They don't need to shift the landing site all that far, any patch of flat, open ground should work if you don't mind burning it. "Everything is air-droppable at least once," as they say.

O. Hinds wrote:I suppose that the older rocket could burn its descent LOX (which is oxidizer, not fuel) at another point in the mission (if Blackjack and company could figure out how to tell it to do that, which is probably a big if), but I don't know that that would give all that much of a boost anyway.  If they take the ESS-A1 instead, which would be the smart thing to do if they beat Cognitum on the moon, there's no landing oxidizer to burn.

I forgot that they use hydrogen talismans to generate the hydrogen propellant. Still, I assumed they'd be taking the older rocket home, and even the A1 could benefit from being able to accelerate all the way to Equus and reenter a capsule instead of needing to turn around and retrothrust at the halfway point. (I'm expecting that it would need to ease into the atmosphere since rocket bells generally aren't as sturdy as heat shields, and the full rocket would have a lot more mass to reenter than a capsule, which means if it entered at "falling from the moon" speeds it would retain its energy much deeper into the atmosphere and expose itself to much higher heat stress and g-loads.)

From a storytelling perspective, I doubt BJ is about to gain an infinite-fuel rocket that can take her anywhere on the planet. The A1 will get destroyed one way or another before they make it back to Equus.

O. Hinds wrote:Hm.  I'm pretty sure neither of those ships is equipped for aerobraking.  Well, maybe a bit, but not as a primary means of acceleration.  I suppose that there might also be emergency capsules...

That's kind of my point. I would hope that the crew compartment in either rocket is equipped to reenter on its own in an emergency, though yes, as big as it is, the A1 might use escape pods or some kind of emergency teleporter instead.

O. Hinds wrote:Hm...  Doesn't "aerobraking" imply intent, though?

Well... once you're at a reasonably low velocity and deep enough in the atmosphere, you can just fall through the air and it will slow you to terminal velocity. Then you just need the engines to brake from ~200 mph to landing.

SilentCarto wrote:Well, granted, but that's a matter for Science and Repair

Ah; I'd forgotten just how... widely applicable their skills were, perhaps. :)

SilentCarto wrote:Still, I assumed they'd be taking the older rocket home

I don't think that the old ship would benefit all that much. Not enough, at least, to justify the extra risk, as far as I know.

SilentCarto wrote:and even the A1 could benefit from being able to accelerate all the way to Equus and reenter a capsule

Let's see... A quick bit of math (assuming constant 1g acceleration) suggests that that capsule would be hitting the atmosphere at around 84 kilometers per second. That is... rather fast. If the emergency systems could handle that, I'd be surprised.

SilentCarto wrote:I would hope that the crew compartment in either rocket is equipped to reenter on its own in an emergency, though yes, as big as it is, the A1 might use escape pods or some kind of emergency teleporter instead.

No, the crew compartment being an emergency capsule is what I meant. I'm not entirely sure if the ESS-A1 would have even that, though, or if it would still be working even if it was there.

SilentCarto wrote:Well... once you're at a reasonably low velocity and deep enough in the atmosphere, you can just fall through the air and it will slow you to terminal velocity. Then you just need the engines to brake from ~200 mph to landing.

Right.

O. Hinds wrote:Let's see...  A quick bit of math (assuming constant 1g acceleration) suggests that that capsule would be hitting the atmosphere at around 84 kilometers per second.  That is... rather fast.  If the emergency systems could handle that, I'd be surprised.

FADE shields absorb energy to reinforce themselves. As long as it didn't exceed the capsule's structural limits, all you'd need would be something to keep the passengers from getting pasted -- which we've already seen when Folly fires. You're right that 84 km/s would be rather... extreme, though.

O. Hinds wrote:No, the crew compartment being an emergency capsule is what I meant.  I'm not entirely sure if the ESS-A1 would have even that, though, or if it would still be working even if it was there.

I don't know why it wouldn't. It's supposed to be the royal rocket, after all.

SilentCarto wrote:I don't know why it wouldn't. It's supposed to be the royal rocket, after all.

Well, not the rocket itself, but... hm. I suppose that the luxury passenger module might include a high-grade escape pod. Equestria didn't exactly have the best safety record, but you make a good point about this being intended for really important people.

SilentCarto wrote:FADE shields absorb energy to reinforce themselves. As long as it didn't exceed the capsule's structural limits, all you'd need would be something to keep the passengers from getting pasted -- which we've already seen when Folly fires. You're right that 84 m/s would be rather... extreme, though.

Not meters per second, kilometers per second. I'm guessing that that was a typo, though.
It's doable, yes, but I don't think that the gain in time would be worth the risk. A Blackjack who has a bit less time might still think of something. A Blackjack who has been reduced to a cloud of expanding gas and/or a thin layer of spraypaint because no one got around to repairing some vital part of the safety system she was using... not so much.

O. Hinds wrote:Not meters per second, kilometers per second.  I'm guessing that that was a typo, though.
It's doable, yes, but I don't think that the gain in time would be worth the risk.  A Blackjack who has a bit less time might still think of something.  A Blackjack who has been reduced to a cloud of expanding gas and/or a thin layer of spraypaint because no one got around to repairing some vital part of the safety system she was using... not so much.

Yes, I left off a k. Most aircraft can beat 84 m/s.

And some birds, even if not in powered flight.

Icy Shake wrote:And some birds, even if not in powered flight.

And certain pegasi.

:)

Typing this from a phone so ignore spelling errors. One question about cutie marks, as stated in Magical Mystery Cure, just because you have someone else's cutie mark, it doesn't change your talent. So why did Contingum want to take Blackjacks cutie mark? It wouldn't have done anything for her, and Blackjack would have retained her talent anyways. And besides the flimsy disguise, there was no reason to take Blackjacks body.