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[Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by cb5 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:23 am

Scienza wrote:It's not really cyberpunk. FoE has cyberpunk elements in the same way that the original Fallout has laser weapons and robots, it's just an evolution of the technological starting point which is something of hybrid of quasi-Industrial Revolution (FiM) and '50s Sci-Fi (Fallout). Also, despite the advances Red Eye may have achieved, the wasteland just doesn't have the capacity to mass-produce sophisticated cybernetics on a scale required for major military use, in fact, even pre-war Equestria didn't have that capacity. The reason you don't see cyborgs everywhere, even in skeletal form, is that they were highly experimental and rare before the war. Stable 101 could afford sophisticated cybernetics because they were only dealing with a population of < 500 and prodigiously recycled resources (as all Stables did), and this was all after 200+ years of constant technological development. You'll notice that even in fics that heavily feature cybernetics (Heroes and Project Horizons), they're still ludicrously expensive and rare, which is why ponies who have them have incredible influence over the course of events.
Ten years ago a computer with 8gb ram, 1tb hard drive, and a 2gb video card would have been ungodly expensive. Today you can buy one for around $600. Moore's law would dictate the same with the amount of money flowing into R&D. Also the cybernetics in stable 101 was slowed down due to it only having five hundred ponies in a non-science stable. Realisitically speaking they probably only had about 5% or less of the ponies working on cybernetics.

What that means is once red eye's base was destroyed, and their scientists left, the collegiate began working on cybernetics, mr house's cybernetics receiving a massive economic boom, etc the amount of ponies working on making newer models of cybernetics would have caused moore's law to swing into full effect and after ten years stuff like blackjack's cybernetics would be cheap and commonplace.

Saying that ten years after SPP that any standing army would not require cybernetics would be like saying that a standing army would not require frontline soldiers to carry a gun.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Scienza on Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:17 pm

cb5 wrote:
Scienza wrote:It's not really cyberpunk. FoE has cyberpunk elements in the same way that the original Fallout has laser weapons and robots, it's just an evolution of the technological starting point which is something of hybrid of quasi-Industrial Revolution (FiM) and '50s Sci-Fi (Fallout). Also, despite the advances Red Eye may have achieved, the wasteland just doesn't have the capacity to mass-produce sophisticated cybernetics on a scale required for major military use, in fact, even pre-war Equestria didn't have that capacity. The reason you don't see cyborgs everywhere, even in skeletal form, is that they were highly experimental and rare before the war. Stable 101 could afford sophisticated cybernetics because they were only dealing with a population of < 500 and prodigiously recycled resources (as all Stables did), and this was all after 200+ years of constant technological development. You'll notice that even in fics that heavily feature cybernetics (Heroes and Project Horizons), they're still ludicrously expensive and rare, which is why ponies who have them have incredible influence over the course of events.
Ten years ago a computer with 8gb ram, 1tb hard drive, and a 2gb video card would have been ungodly expensive.  Today you can buy one for around $600.  Moore's law would dictate the same with the amount of money flowing into R&D.  Also the cybernetics in stable 101 was slowed down due to it only having five hundred ponies in a non-science stable.  Realisitically speaking they probably only had about 5% or less of the ponies working on cybernetics.

What that means is once red eye's base was destroyed, and their scientists left, the collegiate began working on cybernetics, mr house's cybernetics receiving a massive economic boom, etc the amount of ponies working on making newer models of cybernetics would have caused moore's law to swing into full effect and after ten years stuff like blackjack's cybernetics would be cheap and commonplace.

Saying that ten years after SPP that any standing army would not require cybernetics would be like saying that a standing army would not require frontline soldiers to carry a gun.
No, it's like expecting an army of Romans to be walking around with cybernetic implants. The difference between today and the wasteland is that in today's world, they're building off of an extensive base of research. With the wasteland, they have to reverse engineer existing technology, somehow discern the underlying theory behind it, and translate it into a mass-produced product. Much harder, and far more time consuming. There is some pre-existing knowledge in the form of Red Eye and other scattered pockets of knowledge, but nothing like the constant technological and scientific community constantly pushing development forwards.

Even if you factor in the Enclave, who do have substantial pre-war knowledge, you still have to reconcile it with the fact that they are no manufacturing centers of sufficient quality to produce cybernetics on any large scale. The Enclave hasn't had any in over 200 years, as they only reuse and recycle tech rather than actively manufacture it. That's not even beginning to talk about how Red Eye's industrial base is controlled by remnant warlords for many years, the Enclave is ripped apart by civil war, and hostilities between the two Steel Ranger factions don't just end when the Enclave is defeated. This means that for many years, there's going to be a severe lack of exchange of knowledge and technology. It'll probably take decades to even get back up to the level of pre-war Equestria, let alone exceed it.

And when we actually look at the ten years later epilogue, they're nowhere near that level. Isolated communities, pure water is still difficult to get, they've managed to exterminate raiders but they haven't achieved a massive technological revolution akin to what you're describing.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by cb5 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:59 pm

Scienza wrote:No, it's like expecting an army of Romans to be walking around with cybernetic implants. The difference between today and the wasteland is that in today's world, they're building off of an extensive base of research. With the wasteland, they have to reverse engineer existing technology, somehow discern the underlying theory behind it, and translate it into a mass-produced product. Much harder, and far more time consuming. There is some pre-existing knowledge in the form of Red Eye and other scattered pockets of knowledge, but nothing like the constant technological and scientific community constantly pushing development forwards.

Even if you factor in the Enclave, who do have substantial pre-war knowledge, you still have to reconcile it with the fact that they are no manufacturing centers of sufficient quality to produce cybernetics on any large scale. The Enclave hasn't had any in over 200 years, as they only reuse and recycle tech rather than actively manufacture it. That's not even beginning to talk about how Red Eye's industrial base is controlled by remnant warlords for many years, the Enclave is ripped apart by civil war, and hostilities between the two Steel Ranger factions don't just end when the Enclave is defeated. This means that for many years, there's going to be a severe lack of exchange of knowledge and technology. It'll probably take decades to even get back up to the level of pre-war Equestria, let alone exceed it.

And when we actually look at the ten years later epilogue, they're nowhere near that level. Isolated communities, pure water is still difficult to get, they've managed to exterminate raiders but they haven't achieved a massive technological revolution akin to what you're describing.
Then what about mr house who can manufacture cybernetics and red eye's remnants who can manufacture cybernetics as well?  Also the collegiate who began work on implants?  Or Rover who makes cybernetics as well?

Also technology could not exist for two centuries without massive upkeep or manufacturing their own.  What I mean by that is probably the reason why red eye was so powerful was that he probably had a gun manufacturing plant somewhere and that probably most of the guns he had was manufactured.  While yes there are guns/machines/etc that can by luck could have lasted 200 years not enough would have lasted to make the wasteland.  The enclave and steel rangers would have had their weaponry from maintaining their equipment and cannibilism what's broken and recycling it.  If one of the manufacturing plants his faction owned was for guns that would explain why he was so powerful.  Whoever brought back online a gun line would control the wasteland.

Looking at the wasteland for every 1 working gun there's like 20 that are completely broken.  In such a environment if you want to be a major player you would HAVE to make your own equipment.

Also several of the ponies have been around since the war.  Even the collegiate is lead by the zony who was lead for ironpony.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:28 pm

Who is that "Mr. House" you keep talking about ?


Protip: if you are going to start asking in-depth questions, read the 38-39 pages of this thread before asking anything. Chances are high it was already discussed and answered.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by cb5 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:33 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Who is that "Mr. House" you keep talking about ?


Protip: if you are going to start asking in-depth questions, read the 38-39 pages of this thread before asking anything. Chances are high it was already discussed and answered.
From Heroes, or whatever the fuck the guy's name is that hired gun works for.


My point in a nutshell:
Red Eye has working factories ergo it is a safe bet that he is manufacturing his own guns and other stuff and I'm pretty sure Red Eye didn't care about manufacturing toothpicks in his factories.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:50 pm

cb5 wrote:From Heroes, or whatever the fuck the guy's name is that hired gun works for.
Ah, I see. I don't think that I ever finished the second chapter of Heroes, and I don't consider it part of my headcanon.

cb5 wrote:My point in a nutshell:
Red Eye has working factories ergo it is a safe bet that he is manufacturing his own guns and other stuff and I'm pretty sure Red Eye didn't care about manufacturing toothpicks in his factories.
Well, yeah. Getting the industrial base back up and running was one of Red Eye's big things. But Red Eye isn't around anymore, and what he built in Fillydelphia is gone. The NCR may be salvaging and moving what it can, but still.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Scienza on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:03 pm

cb5 wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:Who is that "Mr. House" you keep talking about ?


Protip: if you are going to start asking in-depth questions, read the 38-39 pages of this thread before asking anything. Chances are high it was already discussed and answered.
From Heroes, or whatever the fuck the guy's name is that hired gun works for.


My point in a nutshell:
Red Eye has working factories ergo it is a safe bet that he is manufacturing his own guns and other stuff and I'm pretty sure Red Eye didn't care about manufacturing toothpicks in his factories.
He had factories, then the Enclave bombed the crap out of them. Then the remainder was divided up between the various warlord factions which formed in the wake of his death, further damaging what survived and fragmenting what progress they made between dozens of warring states. Even if this died down by the Ten Years Later mark, you're still dealing with the fact that much of his work has been irreparably destroyed.

Also, there's still a big difference between making a gun and making a cybernetic implant. The fact that all his soldiers weren't augmented, despite his possession of the capacity to make them, indicates that they are expensive, rare, and difficult to manufacture.

In order to make things simpler, I'm sticking with the dual-canon of FoE and PH. Though PH has made ties to Heroes and now Pink Eyes, there're just too many inconsistencies between the various fics (inevitable since it's four different writers traveling in four different directions) to make dealing with all of them feasible from a canon standpoint. Otherwise, I could always bring in obscure side-stories to make the Steel Rangers super-progressive robot wizards with their own city, but that wouldn't fit with the overall direction that Kkat set for them. I know that we're debating the headcanon of fan works, and so this all is rather subjective, but in order to have a discussion about the capabilities of various groups, we're going to need to be dealing with the same universe, and this is the one that most of the subfandom agrees on.


Last edited by Scienza on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by cb5 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:10 pm

O. Hinds wrote:
cb5 wrote:From Heroes, or whatever the fuck the guy's name is that hired gun works for.
Ah, I see.  I don't think that I ever finished the second chapter of Heroes, and I don't consider it part of my headcanon.

cb5 wrote:My point in a nutshell:
Red Eye has working factories ergo it is a safe bet that he is manufacturing his own guns and other stuff and I'm pretty sure Red Eye didn't care about manufacturing toothpicks in his factories.
Well, yeah.  Getting the industrial base back up and running was one of Red Eye's big things.  But Red Eye isn't around anymore, and what he built in Fillydelphia is gone.  The NCR may be salvaging and moving what it can, but still.
Those factories would be worth more than pony's lives.  Anybody with a non-single digit IQ would have moved in immediately and begun bringing those factories back online.  Like someone would have to be ungodly stupid not to fix those factories and get them working again.  Even raiders knew of their importance.  The steel rangers for years fought a losing battle when they could have just left.

After the activation of the SPP ponies would have moved into those factories immediately to lay claim on them.  I'm not talking like days after; I mean like there would still be red eye's forces in the factories screaming for a healing potion not realizing what had happened only to realize it when non-red eye forces running into the factories telling everyone to clear out or be shot levels of right after the spp soon.
Scienza wrote:
cb5 wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:Who is that "Mr. House" you keep talking about ?


Protip: if you are going to start asking in-depth questions, read the 38-39 pages of this thread before asking anything. Chances are high it was already discussed and answered.
From Heroes, or whatever the fuck the guy's name is that hired gun works for.


My point in a nutshell:
Red Eye has working factories ergo it is a safe bet that he is manufacturing his own guns and other stuff and I'm pretty sure Red Eye didn't care about manufacturing toothpicks in his factories.
He had factories, then the Enclave bombed the crap out of them. Then the remainder was divided up between the various warlord factions which formed in the wake of his death, further damaging what survived and fragmenting what progress they made between dozens of warring states. Even if this died down by the Ten Years Later mark, you're still dealing with the fact that much of his work has been irreparably destroyed.

Also, there's still a big difference between making a gun and making a cybernetic implant. The fact that all his soldiers weren't augmented, despite his possession of the capacity to make them, indicates that they are expensive, rare, and difficult to manufacture.

In order to make things simpler, I'm sticking with the dual-canon of FoE and PH. Though PH has made ties to Heroes and now Pink Eyes, there're just too many inconsistencies between the various fics (inevitable since it's four different writers traveling in four different directions) to make dealing with all of them feasible from a canon standpoint. Otherwise, I could always bring in obscure side-stories to make the Steel Rangers super-progressive robot wizards with their own city, but that wouldn't fit with the overall direction that Kkat set for them. I know that we're debating the headcanon of fan works, and so this all is rather subjective, but in order to have a discussion about the capabilities of various groups, we're going to need to be dealing with the same universe, and this is the one that most of the subfandom agrees on.
The problem with that is let's assume that only five percent of the factories survived the bombing and the warlords. Considering that we're talking about a industrial city with hundreds of factories we're still talking about enough factories to have survived to completely change the face of the wasteland.


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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:17 pm

I'll say it again :

Read the thread from the beginning, and you'll get your answers.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by cb5 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:20 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:I'll say it again :

Read the thread from the beginning, and you'll get your answers.
What's wrong with having a debate on the lore?
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Scienza on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:28 pm

cb5 wrote:
He had factories, then the Enclave bombed the crap out of them. Then the remainder was divided up between the various warlord factions which formed in the wake of his death, further damaging what survived and fragmenting what progress they made between dozens of warring states. Even if this died down by the Ten Years Later mark, you're still dealing with the fact that much of his work has been irreparably destroyed.

Also, there's still a big difference between making a gun and making a cybernetic implant. The fact that all his soldiers weren't augmented, despite his possession of the capacity to make them, indicates that they are expensive, rare, and difficult to manufacture.

In order to make things simpler, I'm sticking with the dual-canon of FoE and PH. Though PH has made ties to Heroes and now Pink Eyes, there're just too many inconsistencies between the various fics (inevitable since it's four different writers traveling in four different directions) to make dealing with all of them feasible from a canon standpoint. Otherwise, I could always bring in obscure side-stories to make the Steel Rangers super-progressive robot wizards with their own city, but that wouldn't fit with the overall direction that Kkat set for them. I know that we're debating the headcanon of fan works, and so this all is rather subjective, but in order to have a discussion about the capabilities of various groups, we're going to need to be dealing with the same universe, and this is the one that most of the subfandom agrees on.
The problem with that is let's assume that only five percent of the factories survived the bombing and the warlords.  Considering that we're talking about a industrial city with hundreds of factories we're still talking about enough factories to have survived to completely change the face of the wasteland.
Controlled by warring remnant factions. The problem is that you're taking the (optimistic) opinion that ponies will suddenly cooperate and act rationally. They're former gangers and raiders ruthless enough to rise up the ranks in Red Eyes's organization. They've realized three things: a) The "gang leader" is dead. b) They've got to deal with new threats in Gawdyna's Talons and surviving Steel Rangers. c) They're not the only one in the organization that's realized these truths. They're not going to care about building for tomorrow, they're going to care about power in the here and now.

And besides, it's still a massive leap to go from making bullets to making cybernetics. Red Eye didn't have the capability to outfit his entire army with cybernetics, so how would 5% of his industrial base do what he couldn't?

Also, I think you're overestimating what "changing the face of the wasteland" is. Literally, making anything would change the face of the wasteland. Finally regaining the ability to manufacture toothpaste would change the face of the wasteland, since ponies would have good dental hygiene for the first time in over two hundred years.

The other thing is just that war tech would be relatively low-priority. When even pure water is rare, and with an overabundance of preexisting pre-war materiel, developing new military technology is not going to be the first concern.

Harmony Ltd. wrote:I'll say it again :

Read the thread from the beginning, and you'll get your answers.
I will when I have the time. Still, there's no harm in redebating arguments since it can raise new points.


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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by cb5 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:44 pm

Wouldn't littlepip in the SPP just intervene in conflicts though? Why didn't she intervene in the enclave civil war?
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Scienza on Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:31 pm

She would, and did, but there's still limits on what she can do. Blasting everything that resists with lightning is neither good for winning hearts and minds or for keeping factories intact.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:09 pm

cb5 wrote:The problem with that is let's assume that only five percent of the factories survived the bombing and the warlords. Considering that we're talking about a industrial city with hundreds of factories we're still talking about enough factories to have survived to completely change the face of the wasteland.
Hundreds?! Um. I think that you may be overestimating the amount of rebuilding that Red Eye had done.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:10 pm

cb5 wrote:
Harmony Ltd. wrote:I'll say it again :

Read the thread from the beginning, and you'll get your answers.
What's wrong with having a debate on the lore?
There is nothing wrong. But it's better to know what has already been said in order for people to not have to rehash the same arguments over and over.
Scienza wrote:I will when I have the time. Still, there's no harm in redebating arguments since it can raise new points.
And you're welcome to bring new points. The meaning of my comment is to have people know what has been discussed so that the points that are brought are indeed new.

cb5 wrote:Wouldn't littlepip in the SPP just intervene in conflicts though?  Why didn't she intervene in the enclave civil war?
A point that has been discussed.
Scienza wrote:She would, and did, but there's still limits on what she can do. Blasting everything that resists with lightning is neither good for winning hearts and minds or for keeping factories intact.
Factors also in that she limited herself in her actions. With a few weeks / month to recover and take control of the SPP's various systems, and the surveillance equipment from the SPP network, she finally understood how much of an impact she had had on the Wasteland, for the better AND the worse. After all, the Enclave imploding and a faction of it declaring war to the surface IS a direct consequence of her actions. That and the sheer amount of slaves AND raiders that died from / in the infighting in Red Eye's forces after his demise.
The TL;DR is that she helped during the Bitter War by giving intelligence to the surfacers, but this is what she limited herself to. No angry tornadoes or meteorological nukes. At least until the Bitters turned genocidal, but by that point even if she unleashed the full power of the SPP, it wouldn't have done any good as it had become a guerilla war. You don't drop nukes (metaphorical or literal) on insurgents, it is counter-productive.
As for the rest, she tries to intervene as little as possible in the affairs of the world : as long as you are not a slaver or actively going out of your way to make the life of other people miserable, she won't throw thunderbolts at you.
What she does do on the other hand is keeping an eye open on the Elements of Harmony and try to keep them safe. She has people working with her toward this goal. And also to find suitable replacement should anything happen to them.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Scienza on Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:31 pm

Also, has the in-the-moment effectiveness of the SPP decreased since the cloud-layer was banished? When the entire sky was clouds, she could've sent a lightning bolt anywhere at any moment, but since then, has Littlepip's ability to quickly affect events decreased? Cloud formation isn't that fast, and they move pretty slowly.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:42 pm

I haven't given much thought about that yet, but I suppose if she wanted to, she could "restore" the cloud cover over a large area in a matter of hours or days, depending on how large that area is.

Given what (little) we know of wartime Equestria and what happened during the Holocaust, I'd think that at the most, to cover the whole peninsula under a cloud cover would take at most 6-12 hours. But that was way back then, when everything was still brand new and hadn't had time to let entropy mess with it.

I think it's a fair bet to say that a complete cloud cover could be generated over all the SPP-covered area in 72-96 hours, tops.

I don't know. Thoughts ?
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Scienza on Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:37 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:I haven't given much thought about that yet, but I suppose if she wanted to, she could "restore" the cloud cover over a large area in a matter of hours or days, depending on how large that area is.

Given what (little) we know of wartime Equestria and what happened during the Holocaust, I'd think that at the most, to cover the whole peninsula under a cloud cover would take at most 6-12 hours. But that was way back then, when everything was still brand new and hadn't had time to let entropy mess with it.

I think it's a fair bet to say that a complete cloud cover could be generated over all the SPP-covered area in 72-96 hours, tops.

I don't know. Thoughts ?
I think it sorta depends on how big Equestria is in FoE. It seems to me to be about 2-3x bigger than show canon. Have we already determined dimensions?

The Enclave evidently was able to raise the cover relatively quickly, but as you mentioned, that was 200 years previously, and the pegasi would probably have drafted everypony to manually make clouds as well. 76-96 hours seems about right. This isn't even getting into what Homage's destruction of one of the towers did to the overall effectiveness of the system.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:43 pm

Here's Silentcarto's / Hind's map of the peninsula : http://reese8.deviantart.com/#/d4sw4uo (the frontiers as traced on map reflect the Pax Roamana's view, with the Highlands nominally independent in order to please them (the highlanders))

Also, here's a larger map of the world, for context : http://reese8.deviantart.com/art/Hinds-Zebrica-Map-v1-0-359333118

dark green is mountains, very light green is desert, deep dark green is forest (Everfree) and medium green is water and oceans.

Both maps are linked in Hind's signature.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:50 pm

Also, I had drawn a map of the NCR and its states, but I can't remember where I put it. I also had made an in-depth description of the various states. It's somewhere in this thread.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by cb5 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:03 pm

Harmony Ltd. wrote:Here's Silentcarto's / Hind's map of the peninsula : http://reese8.deviantart.com/#/d4sw4uo (the frontiers as traced on map reflect the Pax Roamana's view, with the Highlands nominally independent in order to please them (the highlanders))

Also, here's a larger map of the world, for context : http://reese8.deviantart.com/art/Hinds-Zebrica-Map-v1-0-359333118

dark green is mountains, very light green is desert, deep dark green is forest (Everfree) and medium green is water and oceans.

Both maps are linked in Hind's signature.
Why is Equestria so small? I don't mean as in size, but why are there so few towns for a entire nation? Is it a micro nation or something?
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:17 pm

It's because the map is incomplete. We have a number of canon location names from FoE, but they're almost only for the Core region. There's also a lot of canon PH location names, for the Hoofington area, but said area is so small that they wouldn't fit on this map, at this scale.

So we're working bit by bit to fill the voids.

The part west of the Central Mountain range is close to being done (only the important place as of now are marked on the map). It's the part east of that mountain range that need more work. I have a number of ideas, but I'm working the best way to implement them.

Of note, the area surrounding Stalliongrad is a vast plain, with little geographical features out of a few rivers [*]. Historically the region produced a lot of food for the rest of Equestria and was an important population and manufacturing center. I was thinking that there may also be some mines in the region. Probably for iron and other metals.

For the rest, it's still a bit shady. I was waiting to see if other people had interesting inputs to offer.


[*]: by the way, if a river passed through it, it'd mean that Stalliongrad would have become a giant radioactive lake after it was balefire-d and craterized into oblivion. Wonder what it would have done to the Underground Facilities...
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by O. Hinds on Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:45 pm

Harmony wrote:with the Highlands nominally independent in order to please them (the highlanders)
Not that it worked, of course.

Harmony wrote:Also, here's a larger map of the world, for context
Well, of Zebrica.  The world map is still in alpha.

Harmony wrote:Also, I had drawn a map of the NCR and its states, but I can't remember where I put it. I also had made an in-depth description of the various states. It's somewhere in this thread.

It looks like it's around Page 21ish.
Harmony wrote:In blue and delimited by a red outline are the States of the NCR :

- New Canterlot Federal District (not represented on the map)
- State of Junction (most populated state)
- State of Manehattan (third most populated state, not far behind New Appleloosa)
- State of New Appleloosa (second most populated state)
- State of Old Appleloosa (third least populated state)
- State of Glyphmark (fourth most populated state, highest concentration of Zebra and Ghouls)
- State of Maripony (biggest state and second least populated after Everfree)
- State of Everfree (which in practice is the second biggest state yet the least populated)


In purple are the areas which are not States of the NCR but still under its control and administration (to varying degrees) :

- The Governorate of Fillydelphia (the military oversee the scavenging operations and that's pretty much it)
- The Ponyville Hellhound Reservation. Officially they have their own government.
- The Northern Frontier : border with the northern territories.
Harmony wrote:New Canterlot Republic - Number of Citizen per States


State of Junction (JN) : 140,000 (27% griffin, 63% ponies, 5% zebra, 5% other)
State of New Appleloosa (NA) : 110,000 (10% griffin, 75% ponies, 10% zebra, 5% other)
State of Manehattan (MH) : 90,000 (8% griffin, 80% ponies, 3% zebra, 9% other [mostly ghouls])
State of Glyphmark (GM) : 55,000 (5% griffin, 20% ponies, 40% zebra, 30% other [mostly ghouls])
State of Old Appleloosa (OA) : 33,000 (7% griffin, 80% ponies [very large proportion of Earth Ponies], 5% zebra, 7% other)
State of Maripony (MP) : 22,000 (3% griffin, 20% ponies, 7% zebra, 70% other [mostly alicorns followed by dogs])
State of Everfree (EF) : 2,000 (2% griffin, 48% ponies, 30% zebra, 20% other [mostly hellhounds])


Total population : 452,000

Per species :
Griffin : 37800 (JN) + 11000 (NA) + 7200 (MH) + 2750 (GM) + 2310 (OA) + 660 (MP) + 40 (EF) = 61,760 (13.6%)
Ponies : 88200 (JN) + 82500 (NA) + 72000 (MH) + 11000 (GM) + 26400 (OA) + 4400 (MP) + 960 (EF) = 285,460 (63.1%)
Zebra : 7000 (JN) + 11000 (NA) + 2700 (MH) + 22000 (GM) + 1650 (OA) + 1540 (MP) + 600 (EF) = 46,490 (10.3%)
Other : 7000 (JN) + 5500 (NA) + 8100 (MH) + 16500 (GM) + 2310 (OA) + 15400 (MP) + 400 (EF) = 55,210 (13%)


Note : most "other" are ghouls and alicorns, in this order.
The tire-track-patterned area is what the Miliozi took after the Alliance ceased recognizing the GPE, and the cloud-patterned area in the middle of that is Las Pegasus's groundspace.


Oh, and this seems relevant:
Harmony wrote:Littlepip was at first hesitant to unleash the full might of the SPP against the GPE, out of a sense of guilt (after all it was her actions which directly led to the current state of affairs).

Once the Bitters broke away from the GPE, with the clear intention to wipe anyone from the surface, she started making their life hard by manipulating the weather to be stormy where they were, but she didn't go all the way - Littlepip doesn't want to be a Goddess, and if she started taking such a direct role in the life of the Wasteland, well... No, she didn't want to go that way.

It is only after the Bitters started using bio-weapons, and when the first death camps started to spring up (the Bitters systematically killing all surfacers they encountered) that she decided she had enough and unleashed the full might of the SPP against the Bitters. But by that point they were already operating close to the ground and always out of the SPP's direct line of sight when they could. And you don't throw the climatic equivalent of a nuke if you're not even sure the enemy is there and if there's the risk of doing a lot of collateral damage in the ranks of those you've set yourself the task to protect.

So her hooves were kind of tied during the whole period as to what she could actually do to help.

Mostly, she just gave intelligence and let the surfacers, and later the NCR, do the actual fighting.
Also, while I'm at it, I might as well put my rough timeline up here again:
Code:
formation of the Pax Roamana 0PR -180Eq
defeat of the diamond dog empire by the Northern Zebras 50PR -130Eq
meteor and fall of the Northern Zebras 80PR -100Eq
pony colonization of the Equestrian Peninsula 180PR 0Eq
Discord arrives, Celestia and Luna descend 580PR 400E->0G
Nightmare Moon rises and is defeated 780PR 200G->0C
FiM begins 1780PR 1000C->0D
the war begins 1795PR 15D
Littlehorn 1804PR 21D->0L
Elusive is fully powered up for the first time; the war ends 1815PR 11L 0E
FoE; firing of Gardens, fall of the GPE 2015PR 211L->0SR 200E
the official end of the Bitter War 2025PR 10SR 210E
the NCR allows the EA to begin operating, within limits, in NCR territory 2026PR 11SR 211E
the headcanon thread's (or at least Harmony Ltd.'s) standard "present day" 2045PR 30SR 231E

The NCR uses the last Equestrian calendar but with different year numbers; the first Hearth's Warming Eve (the date of which was known due to the GPE's records and timekeeping) after the Day of Sunshine and Rainbows marked the start of the year 1SR.  The Alliance uses multiple calendars, the two most prominent being the unmodified Pax Roamana calendar (used by, among others, the Miliozi) and the Elusive calendar, which is the Elusive Company's standard calendar and, in a stunning display of humility, uses Elusive's "birthday" as the new year and counts years from the first time he was fully powered up.


from Harmony Ltd.:
"Quick & dirty (provisional) timeline of the Bitter War (time counted in month and year after the battle of Neighvarro - I'll let you sort the proper calendar) :

Date 0 / year 0 : Battle of Neighvarro
Month 7 / year 0 : the GPE lose its last Thunderhead (thanks to Lionheart and Mouse), and only has a few Raptors left, which it is now mothballing in order to protect them.
Month 9 / year 0 : Activation of the gardens
Month 12 / year 0 : implosion of the GPE (Schism)
Year 3 : first victory of the NCR on the offensive. The tide of war start turning.
Year 4 : first use of biological weapons against the surface by the Bitters
Year 6 : the Bitters are reduced to conducing guerilla warfare ; half of the Bitters have either been killed, made prisonners of war, fled or surrendered.
Year 8 : Bitters attack have become rare, but their attacks continue to be devastating when they occur, contaminating food supplies through bio-warfare and generally using all-out genocidal tactics.
Year 10 : No new Bitter attack has been registered in the entirety of the last year : it seems the remaining Bitters have simply disappeared. Official end of the Bitter War."
Harmony wrote:It's because the map is incomplete. We have a number of canon location names from FoE, but they're almost only for the Core region. There's also a lot of canon PH location names, for the Hoofington area, but said area is so small that they wouldn't fit on this map, at this scale.

So we're working bit by bit to fill the voids.

The part west of the Central Mountain range is close to being done (only the important place as of now are marked on the map). It's the part east of that mountain range that need more work. I have a number of ideas, but I'm working the best way to implement them.

Of note, the area surrounding Stalliongrad is a vast plain, with little geographical features out of a few rivers
[*]. Historically the region produced a lot of food for the rest of Equestria and was an important population and manufacturing center. I was thinking that there may also be some mines in the region. Probably for iron and other metals.

For the rest, it's still a bit shady. I was waiting to see if other people had interesting inputs to offer.


[*]: by the way, if a river passed through it, it'd mean that Stalliongrad would have become a giant radioactive lake after it was balefire-d and craterized into oblivion. Wonder what it would have done to the Underground Facilities...
We've also got all the stuff in the Moojave, of course, which is mostly Meleagridis's (though the Banner is mine).


Last edited by O. Hinds on Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by cb5 on Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:24 am

452k citizens? That's it? I always thought of equestria as like a massive country like russia large, not Malta. That's iddy bitty.



I have a legit question about FoE or any fanfics or even the canon in general.  Why are forcefields played up to be so OP?  What I mean by that is physics wise a theoretical forcefiel exerts a force to dampen kinetic energy.  The most realistic scenario is a microfilament magnetically charge that when you try to cut it it exerts a force back hence a "forcefield".  I'm not saying that a magic forcefield can't exist, or such.  Rather the reason why the military is no longer interested in such a idea is that they have BIG problems with the idea.  The major problems is force, area, size and time.  For stopping bullets and such a magic forcefield would work wonders.

The problem is hellhounds.  They exert a large enough force over a large enough aread to completely ignore the forcefield all together.  They can punch right through cause the amount of force they can claw something with exceeds the amount of force the forcefield and hence it rips through it like tissue paper.
That leads to problem number two.  With the amount of force a hellhound uses to rip through a forcefield that amount of force can be used bullet form.  What I mean by that is theoretically you could use a sabot to fire a needle size projectile from a much larger gun and it would have the same effect as a hellhound ripping through it.
The third problem is time.  Forcefields in theory would dampen kinetic energy, not block it out.  What that means is that if a alicorn was in your way you could simply lay on top of it and you would begin to phase through it after a couple minutes.  That's not realistic of a scenario in the wasteland, but problems number one and three with forcefields would pose a massive problem to alicorns, cause if someone took the roof down on top of them unless a alicorn that could teleport saved them it would kill them.  That is a huge problem for alicorns or any pony with a shield cause if someone blew up the supports for the building you would either have to escape or the debris from the roof would slowly over the course of minutes begin to phase through the shield cause it's exerting such a massive force over such a massive area over such a large time it would slowly crush the pony inside to death.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Scienza on Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:46 am

cb5 wrote:452k citizens?  That's it?  I always thought of equestria as like a massive country like russia large, not Malta.  That's iddy bitty.
Remember that Ponyville's pegasi were somehow able to effectively scout out the entire country in one day. Most fanworks inflate the kingdom's size by quite a bit, but it's still nowhere near Russia large. Of course, since it's AU, size is mostly up to the author. In my writing, I usually blow it up by 4-5.



I have a legit question about FoE or any fanfics or even the canon in general.  Why are forcefields played up to be so OP?  What I mean by that is physics wise a theoretical forcefiel exerts a force to dampen kinetic energy.  The most realistic scenario is a microfilament magnetically charge that when you try to cut it it exerts a force back hence a "forcefield".  I'm not saying that a magic forcefield can't exist, or such.  Rather the reason why the military is no longer interested in such a idea is that they have BIG problems with the idea.  The major problems is force, area, size and time.  For stopping bullets and such a magic forcefield would work wonders.
Shield technology came about really late in the war, and so the research is really spotty at best. Think of it as a really strong electromagnetic field which repels all matter, if it makes it easier. It probably isn't one, but it's the closest we can probably get to describing it. Remember that as much as they turned magic into a science, it is still magic, and so our attempts to rationalize it from an Earth-tech standpoint won't be able to actually describe it. For example, take bypass spells. No matter what we do, we can't explain how they work other than that they recognize genetics and that they're magic. We can understand some of the aspects of the layered magic that makes up the spell, but we can't ever really truly rationalize it due to our (most likely) nonmagical nature
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:13 am

Scienza wrote:
cb5 wrote:452k citizens?  That's it?  I always thought of equestria as like a massive country like russia large, not Malta.  That's iddy bitty.
Remember that Ponyville's pegasi were somehow able to effectively scout out the entire country in one day. Most fanworks inflate the kingdom's size by quite a bit, but it's still nowhere near Russia large. Of course, since it's AU, size is mostly up to the author. In my writing, I usually blow it up by 4-5.
Also, that's only the population of the NCR proper. The Equestrian Wasteland as a whole, by 30 SR, has probably around 2-2.5 million inhabitants (ponies, zebra, griffin, alicorn, non-feral ghouls, and other), that not counting the Alliance territories (the Miliozi alone outnumber the NCR something like 5-6 to one). For example, I have the idea that the Northern Territories (the territories north of the NCR and west of the Central Mountain Range - so excluding the Hoofington Area) is alone as populated as the NCR or even more, the weakness of the area being that it is not politically unified like the NCR is.

Also, don't forget that the population of Equestria got more than decimated during the Holocaust. My idea is that the Peninsula was home to more than 150 million ponies by the time the bombs fell (that number being closer to 190 millions when the war began 20 years ago...). Almost all of the people you see in the wasteland today are either descended from Stable-dwellers (civilian or Steel Ranger), from the Enclave, or Zebra survivors from either that one Zebra Stable or the remnants of the Zebra invading armies.

(in my headcanon) Around 2 to 5% percent of the Equestrian population was turned into ghouls during the Holocaust, but the vast majority of them quickly decayed into feralness, and got killed in the 200 following years. And ghouls can't reproduce anyway. Though an interesting corollary is that a story set in the few decades directly following the Holocaust would have the few survivors adventurous enough to explore the surface be scared shitless of the literal hordes of feral ghouls roaming the land - one of the historical reasons as for why the Wasteland and particularly the Steel Rangers are so ghoulophobic.

By the way, the Steel Rangers, in my headcanon, were among the firsts to leave their bunkers and start exploring the surface (the first ones being the non-feral ghouls, and the Enclave survey teams), simply because it was necessary to their survival to scavenge, the bunkers they were using simply not having been conceived to have many ponies actually live in them for more than a few years.

This also neatly explain why they are so aggressive in their technological scavenging. It has always been a matter of survival for them. Which only later turned into that quasi-mystical techno-worship they are famous for.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Scienza on Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:33 am

Harmony Ltd. wrote:By the way, the Steel Rangers, in my headcanon, were among the firsts to leave their bunkers and start exploring the surface (the first ones being the non-feral ghouls, and the Enclave survey teams), simply because it was necessary to their survival to scavenge, the bunkers they were using simply not having been conceived to have many ponies actually live in them for more than a few years.

This also neatly explain why they are so aggressive in their technological scavenging. It has always been a matter of survival for them. Which only later turned into that quasi-mystical techno-worship they are famous for.
Before or after creating their monastic heirarchy?

Their early emergence onto the wasteland is supported by the fact that they had power armor, allowing them to survive slightly better in an irradiated hellscape.

There's also the question of why there aren't any pegasi among the Stable dwellers or the Steel Rangers, since the Stables were at least representative of pre-war Equestrian populations. After Cloudsdale went down, wouldn't many pegasi have seen that the skies were not a safe haven from megaspell strikes?
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:11 am

Well, first let me say I have a story in my head waiting to be molded into something decent about the "birth" of the Steel Rangers.

This said,

The way I see it, in the first few decades following the Holocaust, the Steel Rangers didn't exist in the way we think of them today. Rather, they were actual veterans of the War, disorganized units, who holed up in various locations they found could protect them from the radiations and sustain them. Mostly, bunkers, government & military buildings, etc...

At this stage, there wasn't any kind of "unity". They were isolated groups of survivors, centered mostly around the frontlines of the War, supply depots, and other places where their units had been posted when the bombs fell. Only a few groups of Steel Rangers had the ability to communicate with other groups of Steel Rangers, their broadcasters not being broken and being in range.

It's only around the time the first generation of "Steel Rangers" born after the Holocaust started to reach adulthood that things started changing. First, it's around that time that the need to scavenge the surface became absolutely necessary to their survival. Scouts going left and right started establishing contact with.

But the ball really got going when the community that had elected residence in one of the wartime-Equestria equivalent of NORAD (several having been built around the Peninsula, in typical Equestrian overengineering fashion) started broadcasting a "call to unity" to all the dispersed units of Steel Rangers, asking them to make contact.

At this point, note one things : The Steel Rangers have "Chapters". They are mostly independent from each other, the only thing linking them together being the Elders.

Well, it's around that time that the council of Elders first met. Let's just say there was quite a lot of culture shock as each groups, which at that point had been isolated for several decades and starting to develop their own culture, entered into contact with each others.

Since then, the Elders have been playing politics, relaying to their chapters the decisions of the Council, and reporting to the Council the point of view of their chapters.


As we've been able to see in the the original FoE and in PH, the Brotherhood Steel Rangers' leadership is far from being a monolithic whole. This rest mostly on the fact that the Steel Rangers themselves aren't a monolithic whole. It's an aggregation of survivors who built themselves an identity as "remnants of the Equestrian Armed Forces".
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:37 am

Scienza wrote:There's also the question of why there aren't any pegasi among the Stable dwellers or the Steel Rangers, since the Stables were at least representative of pre-war Equestrian populations. After Cloudsdale went down, wouldn't many pegasi have seen that the skies were not a safe haven from megaspell strikes?
We know from both FoE and PH (and also MN7, but it isn't 100% canon to this headcanon exercise) that surfacer pegasi exist. It's not excluded that a number of Stables had pegasi inside them, but they were likely a minority : the Pegasi had a stable all to themselves somewhere in the mountains, AND they also had the Enclave.

Also, I like the idea that of the three Tribes (Earth, Unicorn, Pegasi), pegasi are actually the weakest when it comes to diseases, due to how their metabolism work (they heal wounds faster, but this takes a lot of energy and leave them tired and more vulnerable to infections and other things - in short, they're prone to having their immune systems being overloaded). Which in the context of the Wasteland would explain why we see so few of them (Darwinism) and why the Enclave is so scared of the surface : the risk of epidemics.

As for the Steel Rangers, the Pegasi couldn't wear the steel ranger suit - or more exactly, they couldn't wear it and fly at the same time, and Equestria needed all the flyers it could get its hooves on during the war. That's one of the reasons why the Enclave power armor was developed in the first place.

Maybe later on some pegasi (surfacers or dashite) found their ways into Steel Ranger chapters, but it would be exceptionally rare I think, both because surfacer pegasi are a rare occurrence in the first place, and because the Steel Rangers would be warry of getting possibly infiltrated by Enclave spies.
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Re: [Fallout Equestria] Setting discussions

Post by Harmony Ltd. on Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:44 am

Heh. Wasn't expecting the upvotes. Guess I'm doing something right ? Spike 
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