Welcome to Cloudsville. If you're new, don't forget to sign up and say hi in the Introduction forum.

Conviction Discussion thread

Page 7 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:56 pm

It's not a war crime to kidnap children and force them to fight for you?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:01 pm

Last wrote:It's not a war crime to kidnap children and force them to fight for you?
It's also a war crime to massacre war criminals.
avatar
Frost
Crazed Gun-Toting 'Murican

Posts : 6617
Brohoof! : 502
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 22
Location : Fort Bliss

Character List:
Name:
Sex:
Species:

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by DoomManta on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:02 pm

Of course it's a war crime to force child soldiers, but that doesn't make killing those child combatants right. 

If US Marines could give Imperial Japanese soldiers the chance to surrender at Okinawa or Iwo Jima, even after the Batan Death March, the Celestians could have done the same at Blackrock. They just chose not to.

DoomManta
Colt/Filly

Posts : 10
Brohoof! : 2
Join date : 2014-12-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:13 pm

Okay so what is the morally right way and legally right way to kill someone of the opposing force? If you're attempting to be stealthy because the enemy holds a defendable position should you announce your presence? Should you only attack forts that are racially diverse?

Again only one nighkin surrendered.

@Doommanta They didn't kill the children and the Japanese aren't super soldiers. As a soldier I don't think you have a moral obligation to cease your attack and ask them if they want to surrender. I would not ask a marine to ask his enemy if they want to surrender between every shot. Nor would I ask the Celestians to stop swinging their weapons at an enemy for the same purpose. It's the enemy's obligation to ask for surrender if they want it.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by DoomManta on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:23 pm

Given that the TRADITIONAL ROYAL CANTERLOT VOICE is a thing, they could have given a surrender demand that way before the attack even began. But that's neither here nor there since Pyra rather explicitly said that they were under orders to make sure there were no survivors. The intent was total slaughter, and that's the issue for me.

DoomManta
Colt/Filly

Posts : 10
Brohoof! : 2
Join date : 2014-12-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:25 pm

Last wrote:Okay so what is the morally right way and legally right way to kill someone of the opposing force? If you're attempting to be stealthy because the enemy holds a defendable position should you announce your presence? Should you only attack forts that are racially diverse?

Again only one nighkin surrendered.

@Doommanta They didn't kill the children and the Japanese aren't super soldiers.
It's entirely legal to stealthily kill the enemy or even kill a retreating enemy. A visibly surrendering enemy is no longer a combatant and is now a prisoner of war. Refusing surrender and treating surrendering personnel as belligerents is a violation of the Law of Land Warfare and punishable, depending on the prosecuting state, by death or imprisonment. That the surrendering party was one soldier is irrelevant--one man or one battalion, a surrender is a surrender. That he was a war criminal is irrelevant--war criminals' status as prisoners-of-war and entitlements to the protections of the Geneva conventions are indeed revoked, but only after a "Competent Tribunal" has determined their status as such.
avatar
Frost
Crazed Gun-Toting 'Murican

Posts : 6617
Brohoof! : 502
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 22
Location : Fort Bliss

Character List:
Name:
Sex:
Species:

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:26 pm

You're right that it's up to the enemy to surrender. They shouldn't need to be asked.
That said-
Last wrote:one nighkin surrendered.
Even if you didn't believe him, even if he did end up biting Pyra, they had decided to kill him no matter what happened. They did not give him a chance, they were there to kill everyone of his "monstrous" race. That was the war crime.
I don't understand why you keep dancing around this fact, acting like it doesn't count since (from our perspective) none of the other nightkin appeared to of surrendered and been killed on their knees.

swicked
Royal Alicorn

Posts : 6598
Brohoof! : 960
Join date : 2012-05-17

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:28 pm

The Geneva conventions do not exist in Equestria, naturally, but this is a medieval-based society, and the Laws and Customs of War that medieval societies followed were outright genteel compared to the Law of War (The gestalt code of the Geneva and Hague Conventions' rulings) and similar--if not more restrictive--laws are to be expected. The Peace of God, for instance, was practically dueling on an army-scale, if only applicable between Christian nations
avatar
Frost
Crazed Gun-Toting 'Murican

Posts : 6617
Brohoof! : 502
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 22
Location : Fort Bliss

Character List:
Name:
Sex:
Species:

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:33 pm

Am I remembering this wrong? Is there a passage where the nightkin as a whole or anyone besides that one nightkin surrenders? It's the crux of your argument and I don't remember the evidence supporting it.

Why does what Pira said matter? At all? If no nightkin ever surrendered then no Celestial killed a surrendering enemy. Killing the opposing force is not morally wrong.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:38 pm

Also, it's naturally been a while since I've read the fic--they went back and "mopped up" wounded enemies, didn't they? Also a war crime. A wounded, incapacitated combatant is, again, no longer a combatant and is now a prisoner of war. Perhaps different in this medieval setting--considering the Middle Ages' tradition of Coup de Gras, literally "blow of grace" and meant as a mercy kill in the days of primitive, painful and ineffective medicine to prevent the wounded from hours of suffering before death-- but considering medical magic is available, I doubt the practice exists in this setting.

They also picked up a few "souvenirs", or at least intended to, if I recall. Looting of any sort is also a war crime.
avatar
Frost
Crazed Gun-Toting 'Murican

Posts : 6617
Brohoof! : 502
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 22
Location : Fort Bliss

Character List:
Name:
Sex:
Species:

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:43 pm

Last wrote:Am I remembering this wrong? Is there a passage where the nightkin as a whole or anyone besides that one nightkin surrenders? It's the crux of your argument and I don't remember the evidence supporting it.
...no, the crux of my argument is at least one nightkin surrendered.
It might have been only the one, but one is enough.

swicked
Royal Alicorn

Posts : 6598
Brohoof! : 960
Join date : 2012-05-17

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:46 pm

swicked wrote:
Last wrote:Am I remembering this wrong? Is there a passage where the nightkin as a whole or anyone besides that one nightkin surrenders? It's the crux of your argument and I don't remember the evidence supporting it.
...no, the crux of my argument is at least one nightkin surrendered.
It might have been only the one, but one is enough.

He stopped surrendering the moment he bit Pira and that was the moment he was killed. I don't remember the scene too well but the celestials to my memory had no plan on killing him immediately.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:47 pm

Chapter 6: Pyra:
A moment later, pegasi entered the room with torches burning in their saddles. The torches had shaped basins beneath the fire, catching any hot ashes that fell off or hot pitch that leaked down. From the way they moved slowly and cautiously into the room, it was obvious that they were fire blinded and still hadn’t seen Stygus . The lights from their torches didn’t reach up to where we were, but even so both Chase and I cautiously drew in shadows, making it even harder to spot us.
One of the pegasi caught sight of Stygus and shrieked, “Fade!”
The rest of the pegasi that were coming through the door moved towards him, and in moments Stygus was faced with the cold steel of pegasi hoof blades .
“Why isn’t it armoured?” one of them asked nervously.
“Who cares, just kill it!” another hissed back.
“You kill it!”
“Shut up, both of you! This is clearly an ambush .”
Stygus coughed into his hoof, and all of them dropped into a fighting stance. “I don’t suppose you accept surrender?” he asked.
They all flinched at the sound of his voice. One of them opened his mouth to speak, when a pegasus mare pushed herself to the front of the crowd.
“You’re the first nightkin I’ve ever met who even considered surrendering.”
Across from me, I heard Chase’s breath catch in her throat.
It was the same orange pegasus who killed Astral. I grit my jaw as I watched the fire bounce off her three tone mane, white, yellow, and red, tied back into a short ponytail. Internally, I vowed to kill her somehow. She had a necklace on, and embedded in the front of it was a red gem carved in the shape of a candle flame. She was short, even for a pegasus, and through the leather armour she had on, an athletic frame was visible. The strangest thing was that she was out of uniform. Her armour bore no heraldry, and its make and craft was clearly different from all the other pegasi.
“And how many nightkin have you met?” Stygus replied calmly.
“Not counting your friends up the hall?” She shrugged. “Eight.”
He nodded glumly. “You’re Pyra, then?”
She nodded and cautiously stepped closer to him. “And why does a nightkin want to surrender?”
Stygus shrugged. “Because he wants to survive?”
“What about failing Nightmare? She wouldn’t take too kindly to you giving up.”
“We both know that Lun- That Nightmare’s gone.”
There was a pause before the pegasus replied, “Yeah.”
“So... would you accept an unconditional surrender?”
She slowly shook her head, not taking her eyes off him. “No... Celestia’s orders are to kill all nightkin on sight.”
Stygus glanced himself up and down. “You see me, but I’m not dead.”
“I figured if you’re willing to talk, you might be willing to tell me a few things in exchange for killing you quickly.”
A tiny smile tugged at the corner of Stygus’ mouth. “And what does the Bearer of Loyalty  want to know?”
“... You know about the Elements?”
Stygus gave a mock salute. “Captain Stary  Guise of the nightkin, better known as Stygus. I’m Luna’s closest confidant.”
“Captain? So you were the one that ordered those Fades after us last year?” She grunted and shifted. “I still have scars from that.”
“We didn’t want legendary artifacts of untold power falling into Celestian hooves.” He shrugged. “We were trying to win a war.”
Pyra just glowered at him, before lowering her hoof blade. “Well, you lost. No one hurts me and mine.”
Stygus snorted. “Ironic that you’re the Element of Loyalty, when I can hear your Hoofens accent. You’re fighting a war against your rightful goddess, yet destiny still sees fit to grant you that.” He pointed at the gem around her neck.
She growled and stepped towards him, her blades pressed right up against his neck. “It was your goddess that had my little brother taken from his home, to be carted off to become one of you freaks.”
Stygus glanced at the blade, then back at her. “That sounds like something she would do.”
“Tell me where he is, and I’ll make your death quick.”
After a moment, Stygus asked, “Who was your brother?”
“Candle Light.”
“That name means nothing here. How old is he?”
“He’d be thirteen this year.”
Stygus snorted. “You might not want him back, then.”
“Where is he?! ” she snarled.
He tilted his head at the stairs leading down to the basement. “All the foals and servants are down there. Only nightkin are participating in this battle.”
She glared at him, before taking a step back. “Thanks.” Her hoof rose up, and her blade was poised in front of his eye.
“Not like that,” he said. “If I have to die, I’d rather my head to remain intact.”
She stopped. “Where do you want it then?”
“Here.” He held a hoof over his chest, to the side of his heart, then he lowered his leg and stood still. “Please. I want to die whole.”
After a moment, she nodded and pressed her blade against the spot he pointed at. Then with a movement in her shoulder, the blade pushed through the skin and into Stygus. He grunted in pain, and put a hoof over hers. Staring into her eyes, Stygus clung to her hoof blade and leaned forward against her.
“Thank you,” he muttered.
She nodded and looked over her shoulder towards the other pegasi. “Alright, we need-”
Pyra cut off with a startled yelp, and blood was sent flying as Stygus’ fangs tore into the side of her neck . Shoving him off with a startled yelp, she glared at Stygus as he fell back and gave her a bloody grin.
“Buried in one piece!” she barked, and the gem around her neck started glowing. The hair on her head started to shift and move as if it was fire. “There won’t be anything left to bury!” She snarled and... shifted.
Her form blurred, and then chunks of Stygus were flying all over the room.  Gibbets of flesh and chunks of bone rained down over the watching pegasi as they were coated in blood.

Stygus definitely surrendered (because, as seen earlier in the chapter, he'd grown utterly disillusioned with Luna and her cult of Nightkin) and, by all appearances, his surrender was sincere. And Pyra very deliberately executed him. That's about as clear-cut a war crime as you can get, with the justification of "Celestia's orders"
avatar
Frost
Crazed Gun-Toting 'Murican

Posts : 6617
Brohoof! : 502
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 22
Location : Fort Bliss

Character List:
Name:
Sex:
Species:

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:55 pm

"you're the first nightkin I've ever met that even considered surrendering." Let's ignore this I guess.

And there's no chance he lied about surrendering to catch Pyra off guard.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:59 pm

Huh. So, technically Pyra struck a killing blow on Stygius before he ever bit her. I guess I didn't remember that quite right. There goes the argument that he wasn't really surrendering. He was bleeding out into his chest before he showed even a hint of resistance.

Look, in any case, long story short... I don't really care.
You can see the Celestians as having a perfect moral high ground, here. It hardly matters. They died in droves to stamp out every last fade and they failed.
They didn't deserve to win and the fades didn't deserve to lose. This story is about bloodshed, not about those in the right or wrong winning out, and there's a lot more to be spilled before its end. It really doesn't matter either way, to me, whose it is. Slight has a legend to carve into a nation's psyche and I can't wait to watch her start really digging the knife in.

Edit:
Last wrote:"you're the first nightkin I've ever met that even considered surrendering." Let's ignore this I guess.
Mister Frost wrote:“You’re the first nightkin I’ve ever met who even considered surrendering.”
Across from me, I heard Chase’s breath catch in her throat.
It was the same orange pegasus who killed Astral. I grit my jaw as I watched the fire bounce off her three tone mane, white, yellow, and red, tied back into a short ponytail. Internally, I vowed to kill her somehow. She had a necklace on, and embedded in the front of it was a red gem carved in the shape of a candle flame. She was short, even for a pegasus, and through the leather armour she had on, an athletic frame was visible. The strangest thing was that she was out of uniform. Her armour bore no heraldry, and its make and craft was clearly different from all the other pegasi.
“And how many nightkin have you met?” Stygus replied calmly.
“Not counting your friends up the hall?” She shrugged. “Eight.”

You're right! Eight of them didn't surrender! That's practically the entire fort!
One is enough. You are ignoring what I am saying in order to try and warp the argument in which you can be more clearly right. Forget I ever implied more than one did so, one was enough.


Last edited by swicked on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:05 am; edited 2 times in total

swicked
Royal Alicorn

Posts : 6598
Brohoof! : 960
Join date : 2012-05-17

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:03 am

Last wrote:"you're the first nightkin I've ever met that even considered surrendering." Let's ignore this I guess.

Article 23 (d) of the 1907 Hague Convention IV wrote:

    Art. 23. In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden.....(c) To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion(d) To declare that no quarter will be given........

Let's ignore this, I guess
Last wrote:And there's no chance he lied about surrendering to catch Pyra off guard.  
Sorry, I can't seem to find the "Unless you think they're lying" clause to the Law of War


Last edited by Mister Frost on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:07 am; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Frost
Crazed Gun-Toting 'Murican

Posts : 6617
Brohoof! : 502
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 22
Location : Fort Bliss

Character List:
Name:
Sex:
Species:

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:06 am

Yes, he only pretended to surrender so that, when she had her blade in his heart because her orders were to kill all nightkin, he could non-fatally injure her. The perfect plan!

swicked
Royal Alicorn

Posts : 6598
Brohoof! : 960
Join date : 2012-05-17

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:07 am

Friends up the hall would raise that number above eight swicked. Unless she's insulting stygus and means to imply he has no friends, and seeing as they were in Blackrock it's pretty safe to assume they were nightkin.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:12 am

Mister Frost wrote:
Last wrote:"you're the first nightkin I've ever met that even considered surrendering." Let's ignore this I guess.

Article 23 (d) of the 1907 Hague Convention IV wrote:

    Art. 23. In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden.....(c) To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion(d) To declare that no quarter will be given........

Let's ignore this, I guess
Last wrote:And there's no chance he lied about surrendering to catch Pyra off guard.  
Sorry, I can't seem to find the "Unless you think they're lying" clause to the Law of War

I'm not defending them in court. And they live in a fantasy world I think it's safe to assume the judicial system did not evolve paralel to the real world. I was just saying Pyra's account of the event is no other Nightkin surrendered, it's not a complete account of events but it is better evidence then just believing that others did.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:14 am



Across from me, I heard Chase’s breath catch in her throat.
It was the same orange pegasus who killed Astral. I grit my jaw as I watched the fire bounce off her three tone mane, white, yellow, and red, tied back into a short ponytail. Internally, I vowed to kill her somehow. She had a necklace on, and embedded in the front of it was a red gem carved in the shape of a candle flame. She was short, even for a pegasus, and through the leather armour she had on, an athletic frame was visible. The strangest thing was that she was out of uniform. Her armour bore no heraldry, and its make and craft was clearly different from all the other pegasi.
Modern laws of war regarding conduct during war (jus in bello), such as the 1949 Geneva Conventions, provide that it is unlawful for belligerents to engage in combat without meeting certain requirements, such as wearing distinctive uniform or other distinctive signs visible at a distance, carrying weapons openly, and conducting operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. Impersonating enemy combatants by wearing the enemy’s uniform is allowed, though fighting in that uniform is unlawful perfidy, as is the taking of hostages.
Huh
avatar
Frost
Crazed Gun-Toting 'Murican

Posts : 6617
Brohoof! : 502
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 22
Location : Fort Bliss

Character List:
Name:
Sex:
Species:

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:16 am

swicked wrote:Yes, he only pretended to surrender so that, when she had her blade in his heart because her orders were to kill all nightkin, he could non-fatally injure her. The perfect plan!

Because he didn't succeed in killing her doesn't mean he didn't attempt it. And I'm fairly certain he got much closer to killing her than any other nightkin in the fort besides the one that actually did her in.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:19 am

Last wrote:And they live in a fantasy world I think it's safe to assume the judicial system did not evolve paralel to the real world.
Mister Frost wrote:The Geneva conventions do not exist in Equestria, naturally, but this is a medieval-based society, and the Laws and Customs of War that medieval societies followed were outright genteel compared to the Law of War (The gestalt code of the Geneva and Hague Conventions' rulings) and similar--if not more restrictive--laws are to be expected. The Peace of God, for instance, was practically dueling on an army-scale, if only applicable between Christian nations

We generally operate under the understanding that pony laws, customs, and mindsets concerning such matters are like humans' unless noted. Though violence seems rare in the modern setting, self-defence killings are generally noted to be legal. Drug use, when it appears in fic, is also generally noted to be similarly illegal unless prescribed. This allows both the author and reader to understand the nature of events without the author having to make a legal code wholesale because "it's different; they're ponies". Likewise, unless noted, I am operating under the assumption that their Laws and Customs of War are similar to the Hague and Geneva Conventions' rulings.
avatar
Frost
Crazed Gun-Toting 'Murican

Posts : 6617
Brohoof! : 502
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 22
Location : Fort Bliss

Character List:
Name:
Sex:
Species:

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:22 am

Look, I'll be honest, Last... I don't have anywhere else to go from here.
Your points are:
1. The nightkin stole children and Luna was perverted, so
2. They deserved to all die for their crimes. Besides,
3. None surrendered. Except the one, who was lying and so doesn't count.

My points are:
1. This was genocide. They were there to kill every fade no matter what. Case in point,
2. When one surrendered, they killed him. A blade was in his heart before he showed even a hint of resistance. Therefore,
1. This was genocide.

I get that you want to change this into an argument about whether or not more than one surrendered. Clearly, there's not enough evidence either way. Pyra stating they were supposed to kill every nightkin on sight, and her soldiers standing by and agreeing? Evidence this was genocide. Her stating she hadn't met a nightkin that had surrendered? Evidence it didn't matter that their orders were to kill them no matter what... but then she meet one that was surrendering. And she told him he had to die because he was a fade and shoved a blade in his heart.

I don't see where to go from here. I don't think your argument has any ground to stand on whatsoever, so I'm done with this.

swicked
Royal Alicorn

Posts : 6598
Brohoof! : 960
Join date : 2012-05-17

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:24 am

Last wrote:
swicked wrote:Yes, he only pretended to surrender so that, when she had her blade in his heart because her orders were to kill all nightkin, he could non-fatally injure her. The perfect plan!

Because he didn't succeed in killing her doesn't mean he didn't attempt it. And I'm fairly certain he got much closer to killing her than any other nightkin in the fort besides the one that actually did her in.
The moment his surrender was denied, he was no longer a prisoner-of-war and was once more a lawful combatant. His attack was a lawfully belligerent act of war, not a war crime (nor is it a war crime for prisoners-of-war to resist or attempt escape in the first place).

If the Nightkins' violence was a detestable, brutal series of acts, then the Celestians' equal or more-brutal actions are likewise detestable. They do not get a free pass because they're the main continuity's designated "good guys". Allied soldiers who committed war crimes against the Axis were also punished after the war, though they were both the victor and the historically-recorded "good guys".
avatar
Frost
Crazed Gun-Toting 'Murican

Posts : 6617
Brohoof! : 502
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 22
Location : Fort Bliss

Character List:
Name:
Sex:
Species:

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:38 am

Well you did convince me of one point. Pyra didn't know that Stygus was going to attack her, she clearly did not think that was the case or she would not have turned her back and gave him an opening, I will concede that was a murder. It does not matter if he planned on killing her after or not.

But Pyra's account is the most complete one available, according to her no other nightkin surrendered. so while they did murder someone. That was wrong. I don't see anything morally wrong with opposing forces killing one another, I don't see why Celestials lose moral high ground because their soldiers killed opposing soldiers.

I will admit the orders were wrong, they shouldn't kill the nightkin because they look different (Though it is probably well known that they kidnap children and abuse them. I wouldn't blame a father for killing someone who kidnapped his daughter and abused her. It would be illegal for him to doso but I don't think it would be wrong) but with the exception of Stygus all evidence leads to the conclusion that they were killed for being the opposing army not for being Nightkin. That reason could not come into play until they had surrendered. Which only one is known to have and I admit that was wrong, you're right.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:43 am

The fact that it only came into play once is irrelevant; the declaration of "no quarter" is a war crime. The declaration of "no quarter" based on the race of the targets isn't "wrong", it's genocide. The fact that all known Nightkin were Lunar soldiers is irrelevant--the order to unconditionally kill all Nightkin on account of their race constitutes a crime against humanity--or equinity, as it were. No one is faulting the Celestians for killing the active defenders of an enemy force, we're faulting both the ground fighters and Celestian high command (apparently, Celestia herself) for attempting/executing and ordering, respectively,  a genocide.
avatar
Frost
Crazed Gun-Toting 'Murican

Posts : 6617
Brohoof! : 502
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 22
Location : Fort Bliss

Character List:
Name:
Sex:
Species:

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:53 am

If that's the argument then I can agree with that. I was arguing against the idea that the Celestial soldiers with the exception of Pyra (you guys have convinced me of her) had done anything wrong at Blackrock.

Though I of course will freely admit I have a bias againt the Nightkin in general not because the setting has deemed they are bad but because their actions have done that. More specifically the actions of those that live in Blackrock.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by swicked on Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:03 am

"Celestia’s orders are to kill all nightkin on sight.”

Honestly, I don't think Celestia would have to give orders to her army to fight the enemy. That's implied by them being the enemy. Against an enemy, her soldiers undoubtably know to attack and, possibly, to accept surrender if an offer is made.
Celestia's orders were to "kill all nightkin". Ergo, if it's nightkin, kill it. That's what sounds like genocide. All the more because genocide was the way Pyra and her soldiers understood the orders, and how they carried them out.

swicked
Royal Alicorn

Posts : 6598
Brohoof! : 960
Join date : 2012-05-17

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Frost on Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:06 am

Stygus was magically-brainwashed and the rest were mundanely brainwashed. Nightmare Moon (also kind of a pervert, as you've pointed out) was the one to order them to systematically take more children to become Nightkin. Combine the non-optional physical changes, the indoctrination from a young age, and the use of sex and affection as a tool to keep them in line, and they're, at the end of it, pretty much all overgrown child-soldiers--except, again, for Stygus, who was mentally and magically coerced.
avatar
Frost
Crazed Gun-Toting 'Murican

Posts : 6617
Brohoof! : 502
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 22
Location : Fort Bliss

Character List:
Name:
Sex:
Species:

Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Guest on Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:46 am

It's muddy but I think the majority of the Nightkin are responsible for their actions. Chase has at least on one occasion (The scene where NMM wanted to sex her on Goldy's first night.) has shown to have a free will that doesn't always line up withh NMM's desires. I still think she is at the very least partially responsible for kidnapping Goldy.

Not to imply that the Nightkin are not victims of NMM.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Conviction Discussion thread

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 7 of 8 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum